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  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Well I just saw my first promotional ad for the LS touting in stock and special prices. I guess reality is setting in and the new factor is wearing off. My 04 lease is over and I wasn't going to consider a new one since the difference I was quoted in price had been about 300 per month. I would only consider if it was close to what I'm paying now (I still think I want to change to a different drive, hence my looking at the BMW 535 and the Jag XJ). I think that Lexus needs to put the value equation back in or they will lose market share. And to me value is more than just reliability and tech features. They need to offer a very good price or driving dynamics that can match the Euros. I don't think they will go the later route so they had better watch their pricing. Let's see what happens now that it seems they are getting more aggressive. Since so many clients lease we will see where they land on the lease payments.
    If a MBS550 leases at around 1300 per month, I think the LS needs to be around 1000. Just my opinion.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    If leasing a 535i is an option, there's no way LS460, or even GS430, heck perhaps even GS350, can match the low monthly payment. BMW has been the price leader in this circle if lease is an option. Currently, BMWFS is offering 73% residual for 24/24 lease on 2008 535i. There's no way Lexus would be willing to underwrite that kind of residuals and take the cars back in two years; that's just not how Lexus does its business. That is really just too bad. For the same monthly lease payment, I'd take a Lexus over a size-comparable BMW any day. I'm just sick of the financial loss on trade-in's . . . and Lexus lease deals are just not price competitive.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I think that Lexus needs to put the value equation back in or they will lose market share. And to me value is more than just reliability and tech features. They need to offer a very good price or driving dynamics that can match the Euros.

    Bingo! Good post. Lexus has practically eliminated the "value" that used to be quite obvious with the previous LS models. They are attempting to stand on their previously-acquired reputation for value, but not actually deliver it any more.

    You, myself, and others can see this problem. If anything, Lexus LS has actualy become too expensive. I predict the sales data for the LS will prove this over time.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Forgive me, but this is not an arguement worthy of anyone's time. You would be just as valid to be outraged that diesels are called 'diesel' because that is also a contrived name which is not reflected in the technology (just the inventor).

    Not only that, bristol, but I posted the actual technology that is trademarked as "BlueTec", and he sees it as nothingTec. He doesn't understand the technology behind BlueTec that occurs even before or without the Adblue. He needs the engine to be called "Clean-Diesel EmissionsTec". But no marketing agency in the world would be that stupid.

    There is a lack of understanding of both the technology and the use of a tradename. For example the product "Ding Dongs" are a chocolate cake desert from Hostess Bakery, but brightness would need Ding Dongs to be doorbells in order to understand the trademark. LOL. :D

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Good post. Your understanding and explanation of the benefit of torque is a breath of fresh air.

    Fortunately, as you've followed this diesel argument over the past many months, almost every single poster here agrees with you, and understands the concept as you do.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    "Bluetec": a meaningless marketing term that does not refer to a single specific technology.

    It's like "low tar cigarette" . . . compared to what??


    So, compared to diesel engines of previous generations, you don't understand any difference and significant improvement in the ultra-smoothness, quietness, major increase in power, and minimum emissions?

    Wow.

    And you don't think that it has taken technology and engineering to achieve that? What then?... Merlin the Magician?

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    No "wow" necessary. VW/Audi have achieved the same "ultra-smoothness, quietness, major increase in power, and minimum emission" without "Bluetec." Heck, what is blue in "ultra-smoothness, quietness, major increase in power, and minimum emission"? It's just plain direct injection diesel.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Glad we actually agree on something. The argument that Lexus sells more cars because they are cheaper doesn't really hold water much any more when leasing is taken into account.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    He doesn't understand the technology behind BlueTec that occurs even before or without the Adblue.

    You are 100% wrong on that. I understand the technology quite well; better than you anyway . . . at least I do not go around making up "BlueTech." There is nothing blue in the system without the opitonal AdBlue module. If Bluetec gets its name from AdBlue module, then the system in its default form without the module is literally (Nothing)Tec. Is every 911 a 911 turbo? (just without the turbo module)? Is every 911 a 911 Convertible? (just without the convertible mechanism?) Porsche would be within its right to use the names in such a fashioin and cause massive market confusion if they wish, but it would be rank stupidity for any consumer to buy into that line of thinking.

    He needs the engine to be called "Clean-Diesel EmissionsTec". But no marketing agency in the world would be that stupid.

    You are wrong again. "Clean-Diesel EmissioTec" would still be misnomer because it's not clean (as examplified by the current banning of E320DBT in California and other important luxury car markets). The proper name is TDI, standing for Turbo Direct Injection. Audi is distancing itself from the "BlueTec" name and sticking to the name that's indicative of the technology. You are essentially calling Audi stupid.

    There is a lack of understanding of both the technology and the use of a tradename.

    Actually I understand both very well. It's you who do not understand either the technologies (plural) and application that MB marketting is engaged in. MB would be perfectly within its right to use any name, Bluetec, Browntec, Kakatec, or whatever, to describe anything. They are within their right to describe mold-injected matchbox model car as Bluetec. However, it's rank stupidity for any consumer to celebrate the arrival of such a product that has no real substance behind it that matches what the name indicates.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okey-dokey. It's about time for me to remind you both that neither of you are going to change each other's mind, so why not agree to disagree and move on...
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    For a while I've been concerned that Ford was going overboard witht a "track-3" triple-blade front grill on all their new vehicles.

    This new look is terrific, IMO, and represents a hint at Ford's future styling, according to Ford.

    image

    This particular concept is the replacement for the current Fiesta, and should show up in production form somewhere between '08 and '10.

    TagMan
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think that Lexus needs to put the value equation back in or they will lose market share.

    Are you kidding?

    Do you know how well the LS460 does in terms of sales compare to the old LS430?

    July 2007 (LS460): 2,696 units
    July 2006 (LS430): 971 units
    Difference: up 189.2%

    2007 Year to Date (LS460): 20,268 units
    2006 Year to Date (LS430): 7,687 units
    Difference: up 162.2%

    I don't think the price increase has any negative affect on the LS. Customers generally know a good product when they see one.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Comparing the sales of a model at the end of its life to the sales of a brand new model is always going to reveal grossly exaggerated data... the same was true for the Mercedes S-Class. Eventually the data starts to stabilize, and a real picture emerges.

    I would predict that the new LS, with its hefty price tag, will eventually slow in sales to a new low. It's too darned expensive, and represents a reduced value as compared to the previous model.

    Check back next year, and you'll start to see an entirely different picture... without a doubt.

    TagMan
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Okay, then let's compare first year to first year.

    In its first year of sales, the third generation Lexus LS again became the top-selling prestige vehicle in the U.S. with 31,473 units sold.

    Here's my source: Lexus LS

    Since the year-to-date number for the new LS460 is 20,268 units (7 months) it is on pace to sell 34,745 for the 2007 calender year. Given that the LS460 was introduced in late 2006 by the end of 2007 it'll already be on the market for more than 1 year.

    Again, my point is: based on current and historical data apparently the increase in price has no negative affect on the LS in terms of sales.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Again, my point is: based on current and historical data apparently the increase in price has no negative affect on the LS in terms of sales.

    I do understand and appreciate your perspective, and the additional data is supportive, but again, only from an introductory comparative point-of-view. Initially, you can state that the price increase doesn't appear to have a negative effect, and I won't make a big argument against that... but I do believe that down the road, we will see a decline in those numbers, relative to market share, of course, because we must always remember that the pie grows, and the share percentage is a relative piece of data as it compares to the growing pie.

    At this point, there's little reason to argue about this until quite a bit more time and data is under our belts, and then we can see if the LS price increase has effected sales or not. I'm sure we'll keep our eye on it! ;)

    TagMan
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    For a while I've been concerned that Ford was going overboard witht a "track-3" triple-blade front grill on all their new vehicles.

    This new look is terrific, IMO, and represents a hint at Ford's future styling, according to Ford.


    Well, this is a Euro Ford, right? They have a different design director and have been going in this direction for awhile. Just look at the new Mondeo.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The overall car market, including luxury cars, has been shrinking this year. While we have our daily entertainment here as usual, it's actually getting quite wild and wooly out there :-(
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
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  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    VW/Audi have achieved the same "ultra-smoothness, quietness, major increase in power, and minimum emission" without "Bluetec."

    Not true. You are incorrect.

    This excerpt, from Motor Authority...

    "BlueMotion" is VW’s title [similar to Mercedes' "BlueTec"] for its ultra-efficient diesel range, which combines not only a fuel-sipping diesel engine but several other fuel-saving technologies as well.

    Volkswagen will be using next month’s Frankfurt Motor Show to debut the first "BlueMotion" version of its popular Golf hatch, which will star alongside five other "BlueMotion" cars planned for the show.


    source: Motor Authority

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    That further proves my point: BlueTec does not denote a specific piece of technology, just a hand-waving marketing hype for whatever they are experimenting. Audi has caught on the game here. Celebrating the arrival of BlueTec or BlueMotion is quite pointless unless you are the marketeer; it's the arrival of a market name, not any specific technology.

    Article you quoted did not even make a distinction whether BlueMotion is a repacking of existing technology, or a revolutionary step forward in technological terms (probably not, otherwise Audi would have said so) or just an ordinary evolutionary pace forward but now with a new marketing name. BTW, some of us really should work on gullibility and credulity. The hype-driven press is well known for publishing inaccurate or even contrarian informaiton; they are just doing their job of being carnival barkers. Looking for nonsense material to quote without some intelligence filter on really doesn't reflect well on the citation makers.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Yesterday, I ordered a 2008 LS460L. It is a special order with all the options except for the executive package and rear seat upgrade. This will give me 18 cf of trunk space. Besides, the rear seat area is luxurious enough without that other "stuff". Some of you may recall that I had originally ordered the LS600HL but canceled the order when I learned that the gas mileage was 20/22 mpg. This was unacceptable to me for a hybrid. The 2008 LS460L has EPA rating of 16-24 (based on the new EPA ratings. The old rating was 18/27). ljflx has posted that he has been getting fantastic gas mileage (27.5 on local highway driving and he thinks he can reach 29-30 on long Interstate driving) on his new 2007 LS460L.

    The best part of all this is that I am saving gobbles of cash by not ordering the hybrid. In fact, I got a fantastic deal from my dealer. With the options I ordered, it came out to 85K. They took 3K off for being a loyal customer over the years and I am paying "only" 82K. Yesterday just happened to be the deadline for ordering so that it could be built in October for November delivery. Thus, I think I will be driving this vehicle by Thanksgiving. I am really looking forward to it.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Celebrating the arrival of BlueTec or BlueMotion is quite pointless unless you are the marketeer; it's the arrival of a market name, not any specific technology.

    That makes absolutely no sense. If there weren't any technological advancements for the tradename BlueTec of BlueMotion to represent, then the engines would be no further along than the old clickety-clack, smokey, and gutless engines of past generations. And obviously, the BlueTec and BlueMotion diesels are much beyond that.

    From your same analogy, the Hybrid Synergy Drive doesn't represent anything new. It's the "Nothing New Drive". The electric motor isn't anything new at all. There were electric-powered cars back in the early days. The gas ICE has been around for a long time. Batteries arent' anything new either. So... there's nothing about the name Hybrid Synergy Drive other than it's a clever-sounding marketing ploy.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Let me be the first to congratulate you on your vehicle order. I have known for a while you really like the new LS... and I recall your anguish regarding the LS600hL.

    I believe you have made a good choice to go with the 460L instead, as did LJ. He is a smart man, and he made a smart decision. Hopefully, Thanksgiving will see you driving your new car.

    Color?

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Member Posts: 2,302
    Thanks Tag! Oh ya, I forgot to tell you about the color. It is a smoky granite mica with black interior.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Congrats on your new LS. Keep us posted!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It is a smoky granite mica with black interior.

    Nice! :)

    TagMan
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    Congrats on the new ride man!!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    During the Taste of Lexus Evening Event in Santa Anita Park, CA. On top of that I also drove the GS350 in a small course. Was disappointed that Lexus didn't offer the SC430, LS460 and GS450h for us to drive. The only models that we can drive are the GS350, IS350 and IS250. I only choose the GS350 since there is no point to drive my own car...

    Here are my impressions:

    IS-F: This is really not a dyno test instead it's a simulated 1/4-mile run on a dyno. I got to sit in the IS-F, drive it to 4th gear (I got to shift it myself), let go of the gas and let it coast. Overall, the V8 is pretty impressive, I'll say it definitely over 420HP. It doesn't have a traditional V8 low grunt, instead it has a high pitch scream, very nice. The 8-speed transmission shifts fast under manual mode. May not be as fast as the DSG but is definitely faster than the regular IS and other shift-tronics out there. I really wasn't a fan on how does the IS-F look when it debut back in January but this is one of those cars that pictures just don't do it justice. The side profile is very nice, the bulk hood doesn't look out of shape and the big vent on the side looks reserve and not boy-racer like. Bottom line is this is a pretty impressive effort from Lexus but would be better if they drop a manual tranny in there.

    LS600hL: The interior is much better than the regular LS. The dash, door panel and center console are all covered by leather. Very nice. Is it worth over 100 grand? I don't know since I am not into the ubber-luxury sedans. This is definitely not a driver's car, may have more appeal to backseat buyers with the massage captain's chair and all the goodies in the back. Overall it is a worthy competitor to the S600 and 760iL.

    GS350: Drove the GS350 in a small track, it has good pickup, decent brake and went through the corner with ease. Overall speaking, with the 2GR-FSE under the hood it felt like a bigger IS350 with a softer suspension. For anyone who likes the IS350 but needs a bigger backseat this is definitely a good alternative.

    Side note: The Lexus rep told us while waiting to drive the IS-F that there are definitely other F models in the pipeline. I asked him so does that mean the GS-F is definitely coming. He said: Shh...
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    If European-style driving dynamics are so important to you, I wonder why you chose the 2004 LS 430 in the first place; I hope you at least got the Euro-tuned suspension package. A BMW, Audi, or Mercedes will likely meet your needs and desires better. The standard LS will not offer European driving dynamics because the typical Lexus customer does NOT want this. It makes little business sense to design a car for all POTENTIAL buyers when you have a large core group of REPEAT buyers that is IMMENSELY satisfied with your product as it is; an LS with more European-style driving dynamics would alienate some of the loyal core LS buyers. The Euro-tuned suspension package was not a commonly chosen option (and it is difficult to find in the used market), and I do not expect the Lexus LS 460L Touring to do much better.

    BMW heavily subsidizes the leases for many of its vehicles, and you could easily get a 7-series for less than your current LS 430 payment; you could probably lease both a 750i and a 535i together for not too much more than a single Mercedes-Benz S550.

    2008 BMW 535i MSRP-$50,175 @ $609/mth for 36 months with $3759 due at signing

    link title

    2008 BMW 750i MSRP-$76,575 @ $919/mth for 36 months with $5369 due at signing

    link title

    I am sure that HPowders will be glad to give you some negotiation tips and information about the BMW USA club - the club offers some type of additional incentive for every new BMW lease for its members. You may be able to make those required down payments essentially vanish for either one or both of those vehicles! It is quite clear to me that you need to pay a visit to your local BMW dealership, because I doubt that you will be able to get a Lexus LS 460L Touring for anything close to $919 per month and you will most likely be happier with the 750i or 535i anyway.

    "I think that Lexus needs to put the value equation back in or they will lose market share."

    I could not find this particular article (published over a year ago), but it basically stated that Lexus surveyed some of its current LS customers and generally found that they were willing to pay more for a Lexus product than what was currently available for sale from Lexus at that time; Lexus executives were apparently surprised at how much their customers were willing to pay for the whole Lexus product ownership experience. This gave Lexus the confidence to price the LS 460 above the LS 430 and to offer new options and configurations that initially (at launch) allowed the LS to cross the $90,000 barrier, and more recently crossing the $100,000 barrier. The core buyers spoke and Lexus listened - the LS will continue to sell well.

    (If I ever find the article again, I will post it.)
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Thank you for your post. How I wound up with the LS430 is very interesting. I wanted a lux car that time around and the A8 didn't do it for me. My first choice was the MB S430. I went to the dealer with my check book but the best I could do on a lease was around 1300 per month. And for that I couldn't get built in blue tooth, back up camera or satilite radio. And not even Xenon headlights were standard on the S430 (you had to step up to the 500 for that). As much as I wanted that car, the value equation was not there. I had 2 friends who had to go lemon law on the 7 series so that was out. I got the Lexus by "default". It's a perfectly good car but I don't think it's really for someone who loves cars and loves to drive. The only real real gripe I have with it is that the seats should be more comfortable. They're too flat. I knew that it would not be involving to drive or very rewarding in that way.
    The new lease deals on the 7 series just caught my eye today and if I can lease one for a price close to what I'm paying now and close to a loaded up 550i or 535xi then I may go for it. Do you know if the electronic gremlins are gone now?
    Interesting that the interior volume is not much greater than the 5 series but I think it gives more of the big car lux feel. By the way, I think that MB has gone much more in the direction of Lexus in their new S Class. I prefer the way the last gen drove but maybe the Lexus influence has taken over. The hunter becoming the hunted.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    If anyone has info regarding what incentives one can get by joining, I would be very interested to hear. Thanks.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    If anyone has info regarding what incentives one can get by joining, I would be very interested to hear. Thanks.

    If one joins BMWCCA at least one year in advance of buying or leasing a BMW, you are eligible for a discount ($500?). This was pointed out to me by our friend hpowders.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Was disappointed that Lexus didn't offer the SC430, LS460 and GS450h for us to drive.

    You didn't really miss out. The SC430 is the worst luxury convertible on the market. Lexus benchmarked the old Jaguar XK (a '97 design built on a 1975 platform) when they designed the SC, and it couldn't even compete with that. It's absolutely humiliated by the new XK, SL, and 6. It's also about to be replaced, so its no surprise that they aren't actively promoting it.

    The GS450h is just a heavy, clumsy GS350. The GS is currently the only logical candidate to receive F treatment. If they want to do an SC-F, they'll have to change it from a boulevarder into a sports car first.
  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Good luck with your new car to be...You will enjoy the experience, as Lexus is first class after the sale...Tony
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Membership is $40 per year, 2 years $76 at bmwcca.org or 1-800-878-9292.

    One can get a rebate of approximately $500-$1000 (depending on the cost of the BMW model) on a new lease, purchase or CPO used vehicle. Transaction must be done at an authorized BMW center (meaning from BMWFS). Membership must be in force for at least 365 consecutive days to get the rebate.

    Membership also includes 12 monthly issues of the BMWCCA magazine "Roundel" which is as I see it, about as good as a car magazine gets. There is a huge letters to the editor section and there are always some non-BMW people-published letters there every month. One guy recently wrote he will keep his RX350 after driving an X5. All opinions are welcome. I like that.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Thanks, I wish I had been more attentive 12 months ago as I am looking to get a new BMW and I won't be able to take advantage this time around.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I would suggest shopping around to try and bargain down another $500-$1000 off the MSRP if you can, to make up for it. I would e-mail as many internet sales people as I could, unless of course, you already have a deal.

    I wonder how many people join BMWCCA for 2 years at the $76 discounted rate only to find when the time finally comes to purchase or lease, they have become interested in another manufacturer's vehicle. That's the risk.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Interesting new take. I had no idea that you thought the existing MB and VW/Audi common-rail direct injection diesel engines were/are "clikety-clack, smokey and gutless" before the BlueTec and BlueMotion marketing names are applied to them. . . after all, Audi R10 won LeMans before the marketing term BlueMotion was invented. Shoot, I didn't know you had such a low opinion of current MB and VW/Audi diesel engines, most of which are not yet marketed under the BlueWhatever name.

    the Hybrid Synergy Drive doesn't represent anything new. It's the "Nothing New Drive".

    What a pity, apparently MB can't even duplicate the "Nothing New Drive," and Porsche has think about licensing the "Nothing New Drive." In case it's not obvious, the differences between Toyota's HSD and what Dr. Ferdinand Porsche last tried 60+ years are sufficiently vast that it's not Toyota who's licensing from Porsche but the other way around for HSD. Whether you think there is anything new or not in the HSD, the HSD delivers exactly what the name says: hybrid ICE and electric motor working together turning over the drive shaft. . . hence HSD. In contrast, what's "blue" in a BlueTec car that does not have the optional AdBlue Module?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I wonder how many people join BMWCCA for 2 years at the $76 discounted rate only to find when the time finally comes to purchase or lease, they have become interested in another manufacturer's vehicle. That's the risk.

    A lost $76 to secure a nice discount like that isn't really a big deal. Top Gear Mag is the only one I regularly read besides C&D, and that costs a lot more than $76 for a year.
  • jcobyjcoby Member Posts: 140
    "Do you know if the electronic gremlins are gone now?"

    Unfortunately, recent historical data does not look good for the 7-series. The 2006 models have had much-worse-than average statistical reliability according to Consumer Reports (and that performance is expected to continue for the 2007 and beyond) and the recently released J.D. Power vehicle dependability study also gave the 2004 7-series very low marks.

    link title

    By contrast, the 2006 5-series had below-average statistical reliability, but it is expected to have average statistical reliability for 2007 and beyond according to Consumer Reports; it is also a "Recommended" and highly-rated vehicle. The J.D. Power vehicle dependability study also rates the 2004 5-series as an average performer in statistical reliability.

    link title

    Overall, it does not appear that you have a significant risk of purchasing a problematic 5-series, but there is a rather high risk of purchasing a problematic 7-series. Even so, your relationship with your local dealership is quite important. If your local BMW dealership has a good reputation and you feel confident that they will take care of you as a valued customer, then I would overlook the risk and go ahead and purchase the 7-series if that is the vehicle that you prefer; a good dealer will stand behind you in times of trouble and significantly mitigate the pain caused by a problematic vehicle.

    Since there is not much risk involved (compared to other vehicles) in purchasing the 5-series and it is roughly $300 less per month to lease, I would most definitely choose the 535i/535xi/550i over the 750i; you will also have 2 additional years (over the 750i) to drive a 5-series before it is redesigned.

    You really should purchase a BMW and nothing else because your statements have made it evident that you are seeking what BMW is renowned for; BMW designed their vehicles to please customers with tastes that are similar to your own. As much as I adore Lexus, I really do not believe that you should lease another LS simply because it was never designed to please someone with your needs and desires in a vehicle.

    If I were in your shoes, I would amicably end my relationship with Lexus and run down to my local BMW dealership to pick out the option packages and color combinations on my new BMW! ;)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    The only reason Porsche is messing around with the hybrid is to satisfy the marketplace and beurocrats. That doesn't make it a special technology. There's nothing new about an electric motor, a gas engine, or batteries... no matter what fancy name is applied. But, since you bring it up, it wouldn't surprise me to see Porsche do a better job than Toyota with hybrid.

    I had no idea that you thought the existing MB and VW/Audi common-rail direct injection diesel engines were/are "clikety-clack, smokey and gutless" before the BlueTec and BlueMotion marketing names are applied to them

    You are much too concerned about the name "BlueTec". It's just a tradename. "BlueTec"..."NewTec"... "ShmooTec"... who gives a rat's tail what they call it? Oh that's right... you do.

    I never said the recent diesel engines you mentioned were bad engines. You are incorrect in your assumption. I was in fact illustrating that the BlueTec engine has technology not found in the older generation of diesels. It's a little disappointing that you don't understand that... but I'm not surprised. You have already posted that you are unable to see and understand any of the technical advances incorporated into the "BlueTec" engine other than the urea solution... even after I posted some of them.

    Your bias against new modern clean diesels is showing again.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The only reason Porsche is messing around with the hybrid is to satisfy the marketplace and beurocrats.

    That's quite a laugh . . . after all, the emphasis of BlueTec (as opposed to Common Rail TDI) is on emission control; blue liquid urea solution is injected to the exhaust gas not intake air. Hybrid on the other hand has such a huge performance advantage that it is banned from car races, just like AWD . . . the "unfair advantage" schtick.

    You are much too concerned about the name "BlueTec". It's just a tradename. "BlueTec"..."NewTec"... "ShmooTec"... who gives a rat's tail what they call it?

    So what's so fantastic about the arrival of an empty tradename?

    I never said the recent diesel engines you mentioned were bad engines.

    So what's that "clickty-clacky smoky" description for diesel engines before the arrival of BlueTec about? I mean, shouldn't the latest product be compared to the most recent immediate predecessor? Not some old jalopy from decades ago?

    I was in fact illustrating that the BlueTec engine has technology not found in the older generation of diesels.

    You might just be a genius and know something that not even the MB engineers know. Aside from messing with the emission system (to what extent, not even the MB guys know for sure) ouside the engine, in order to "satisfy . . . beaurocrats" (in your words), "Bluetec" offers hardly anything in the engine department that is not in the common-rail TDI that has been on the market for the last half decade. 208hp from a 3L engine is not exactly a performance breakthrough.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    hahaha, we shall see if it happens to us (becoming interested in something else). I actually bought two memberships for two years, 'cuz we may just pick up two cars if we find the time to bring the baby and the nanny to a European trip next spring. At $85, it's a cheap call option for a couse of action that has roughly 50% of happening (the other 50% being Lexus offering alternatives to the 335i convertible and X3 at a price level competitive to BMW leases; somehow I doubt it).
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    "Bluetec" offers hardly anything in the engine department that is not in the common-rail TDI that has been on the market for the last half decade

    Let's be clear.
    Bluetec is unrelated to the engine technology.

    Bluetec is an emissions control system that is designed to satisfy emissions regulations to allow passenger diesel (<8500 #) vehicles in the CARB states.

    Not a change to the engine.
    No one is arguing that it is an engine change.
    Not even MB.
    Not even Tagman.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Thank you, Bristol2.
    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    As I've posted before, BLUETEC is more than just urea injection. As briefly explained on the Mercedes Benz website, BLUETEC incorporates four after-treatment units in the exhaust stream - an oxidizing catalytic converter, a particulate filter, an advanced "denox" storage converter, and a SCR catalytic converter.

    To meet even more stringent emission requirements the BLUETEC system could be equipped with another module - AdBlue injection. A water-based urea solution, AdBlue is carried in its own small tank and metered into the exhaust in minute quantities, so small that the tank only needs to be refilled during routine scheduled maintenance. When AdBlue is injected into pre-cleaned exhaust gas, ammonia (NH3) is released, converting nitrogen oxides into harmless nitrogen (and water) in the downstream SCR catalytic converter. Called SCR, for selective catalytic reduction, this process creates the most effective method of exhaust gas after-treatment currently available.

    In Europe, AdBlue injection has already proven effective in more than 15,000 Mercedes-Benz commercial vehicles, and the AdBlue supply network covers some 1,500 locations.

    Not only is BLUETEC the cleanest diesel technology in the world, which can meet the most stringent emissions standards, but it also helps customers make tangible fuel savings and reduce dependence on oil imports. With its super-clean exhaust, BLUETEC can also increase the appeal and the sheer availability of diesel vehicles.


    It should be clear that BLUETEC is more than urea injection. And... liking or disliking the tradename is irrelevant to the technology.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    " A lost $76 ... that isn't really a big deal."

    I guess I'm kind of a low risk kind of guy. Sort of why I drive a 545i. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Special instructions for you to get the BMWCCA rebate:

    1.Make sure you sign the rebate form with your real name.

    2.Wear dark sunglasses.

    3.Do not bring samples of your BMW financial analysis postings with you. ;)

    Different mentality from BMW. Lexus and Acura want consumers to buy, not lease.

    I could buy an MDX today for 2.9% from Honda Finance. Still higher than my 545i rental fee of 2.4%, but, nevertheless, a good deal. Leasing the same MDX from them would cost me 5%.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Finally we can all agree on something: BLUETEC stands for after-treament systems for exhaust emission control. In other words (In tagman's words): to satisfy bureacrats.

    So what's so exciting about BLUETEC? whether it actually contains anything blue or not? Whether it is legal or not? whether it is durable or not? It's just a trademark for a disparate set of experimentations on exhaust gas, the composition and application of which are all still quite in the alpha-trial stages. At least EV-1, as short-lived as it was, could boast concrete terms of what it was: it actually was an Electric Vehicle. BLUETEC is just a bunch of nonsense high-school science projects cobbled together to mislead the MB fans into believing it is actually a real piece of engine technology that delivers smooth and powerful diesel engine, when in fact it has nothing to do with engine technology, noise or power. Failure after failure as a deliverable car to consumers in the CARB states, BLUETEC has somehow suceeded in preaching to the faithful who desperate want something to believe, who are all too willing to gobbe up the marketting nonsense.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I'd be quite eager to subopena their books and file a class action suit on behalf all those who are denied the rebate if they deny mine :-)
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