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2008 Cadillac CTS

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Comments

  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    Top Gear didn't "hate" the CTS.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    readerreader,

    You and I must of read the same article. Perhaps plekto, got a alternate copy ??? :surprise:

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    You have to take the review Clarkson did in a typical British fashion - when he goes off on it for a good chunk of the review noting small things he doesn't like - it's pretty much your or my saying "it stinks".

    But they did like how it drove(The V, a whole a lot, actually), to be sure. It just needed a better interior and features. And it was overpriced compared to the competition.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhqkV6iRbE0

    Start watching at 7 minutes ;) He isn't in love with. The Holden Monaro is the same engine for loads less money. We don't get it here... Same speed around the test track in the rain, as well - within half a second. Over and over they say in various places on the site(s) about the CTS that it is cheap inside and lacks the refinement and precision of its European counterparts. "Like a big crude hammer" sums it up exactly.

    OTOH... It's a *tad* cheaper than the BMW 5 series, to be sure.

    But it does appear that the 2008 fixes the "cheap" factor, so it should be a better comparison. Just... Too bad we don't get the Holden.

    P.S.
    http://www.topgear.com/blogs/drives/016-smart-fortwo/
    A nice review of the one coming to the U.S. this fall. OKay, more like the "one-half" we'll get :)
  • ggesqggesq Member Posts: 701
    GMID means GM in your driveway. It's a type of discount that employees can give their friends and relatives. Basically, once you receive a GMID certificate number, you call a GM dealer and see if they accept it. If they do, basically go to the lot, pick out your car and you get the supplier discount automatically- no hassle and no haggling involved. Personally, I have used the GMID certificate on 2 GM purchases and it works awesome. Especially when GM dealers were not budging off of MSRP, it's an excellent way to get an excellent deal.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    That was a funny post. I agree with your sentiments 100%. I too thought this forum was about the CTS as opposed to "Merc1 airs his grievances against GM". Interestingly enough, you wont find me in the C-class forum reminding MB loves about MB's dismal quality of late. If I dont like the car I don't see any reason to post in a forum about the car. DOes that makes sense to anyone else?
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    1. They tested both the CTS and CTS-V.

    --Don't mix up the two; and don't mix up the TV show with the website/magazine. It's a TV show.

    2. They have not yet tested the 2008 CTS.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    check out the new issue of MT when you can, there is an in depth article about the CTS with many pictures. They are impressed.
  • thebugthebug Member Posts: 294
    ggesq: Can this certificate be used if you order a vehicle?

    thebug...
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yes, because I know people that have done it. I never knew what the program was called since I never had any personal experience with it. It's basically someone like my father giving a friend a GM discount. I think it's at GM "supplier" cost though. It's still a good deal and will save ya a buck on hot models like the new CTS.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I'm still waiting for mine in the mail......

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    1487,

    Have you heard any rumors about the CTS-V besides powertrain ????

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Yes, I KNOW they haven't tested the 2008. Nobody has. But thye sure seem like they are chomping at the bit to find one to test when they can.

    The CTS they liked how it drove - but yeah it's understandably dated compared to the competition given that it's at the end of a cycle.

    Personally, though, the only things that irked me were the huge amount of plastic(give me velour or something other than tupperware!) and the lack of MP3, which, while minor, it seems as if GM and Mercedes are just years behind the trends - as if a car stereo is something they have to offer and would rather just ignore entirely.
  • biker4biker4 Member Posts: 746
    This is from CTS press release on media.gm.com. Check other models and you'll see that every DI application achieves superior fuel economy given the same overall displacement and gear ratio of it's port injected counterpart (obviously, with all things being equal such as weight). People seem to be missing the entire point of direct injection which are free horsepower and lower consumption.
    Nowhere on there does it say the DI engine will have better millage than the regular engine. Yes, you'd get a millage increase if all things were the same - but there's a 50 HP diff between the engines. You get either free HP or better millage but usually not both.

    See the diff between an ES350 (regular) and IS350 (DI) - they're about the same weight (3500lbs) , both have a 6AT (and basically the same engine). Granted the ES is slightly more efficient due to FWD but that is a small diff. The ES (272HP) is rated at 21/30 while the IS (306HP) at 21/28. So the IS does get 34 "free" HP but the millage is not any better.
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    You gave us the wrong link and I couldn't find it over there.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Yeah, I thought it was just me....Glad I'm not the only one. ;)

    Rocky
  • topgun7topgun7 Member Posts: 412
    Sorry guy to interrupt your fun of BMW vs CTS/STS discussion. But isn't this an 08 CTS forum? There are plenty of board comparing different models. Why don't you guys take the difference to one of those board or through private email? It is a big waste of everyone time to read through all your posts about who say what. By the way I don't care what you guys think about how other model perform. I am not buying one of those model and neither did you guys. If you have some CTS information to share. Please do, I love to hear about it. Otherwise, have a life instead.
  • topgun7topgun7 Member Posts: 412
    Sorry guy to interrupt your fun of BMW vs CTS/STS discussion. But isn't this an 08 CTS forum? There are plenty of board comparing different models. Why don't you guys take the difference to one of those board or through private email? It is a big waste of everyone time to read through all your posts about who say what. By the way I don't care what you guys think about how other model perform. I am not buying one of those model and neither did you guys. If you have some CTS information to share. Please do, I love to hear about it. Otherwise, have a life instead.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    yes we are past that if you haven't noticed. You are kind of late. There is only one ocassonal visitor to this forum who wants to discuss things other than the CTS, we he's not posting everything stays on track.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sorry - the url works for me. Um.. just search on youtube for "CTS Top Gear".

    But yeah - the new one - I sure hope GM makes it have a nice and tactile interior. Really - an interior like a S-class isn't more than a thousand or so more to do - it's mostly replacing pastic areas with bits of chrome and leather inserts and such. If GM can figure this out and stop doing the Alitma/Civic/etc routine of making stuff that looks expensive but it hard as a rock plastic and go with old-school cloth and leather and chrome, the naysayers will evaporate - because they already make superb engines and the cars drive great for loads less than the European choices.

    90% of a BMW 5 series for 2/3 the price - if they can match the 5 series interior, BMW's gong to have problems.(the 3 series - it's fine, though - no real competition, yet, though a lot of peope are trying)
  • thebugthebug Member Posts: 294
    Personally, though, the only things that irked me were the huge amount of plastic

    plekto: So, so many poster's are talking about not liking the plastic parts of an interior, that I just have to ask, don't all cars have plastic interior parts? I mean to date I haven't seen or been in a car that didn't have plastic included in the interior design. Further, many have mentioned that the said plastics look and feel cheap. Maybe I'm just missing something here. Please explain.

    thebug...
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Almost all care these days have hideous interiors.

    Take a Mercedes C Class. At least the break it up and put leather inserts and handles and chrome bits on the door panels. The plastic feels like almost a substrate or base for the other bits to be put on top of(ie - it's there to hold it all together). Still too much plastic, but not attrocious. The Mini also goes to great lengths to minimize plastic touch and feel.

    GM - it's a big swath of plastic in your face. Texturing it doesn't do as much as a nice piece of carpet or cloth did in the mid 80s.

    Luxury to me means little or no plastic on the interior. Otherwise, it's just fake luxury. Cubic Zirconia as it were. For $40-50K, we certainly should get a few hundred dollars of cloth and leather and wood and such.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    Please explain.

    Simple domestic bad, import good. Nothing else matters.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Okay - Audi - good. Volvo bad. Mercedes - some cars good, SUVs apalling. Ford - bad. GM - Cadillac good(CTS aside) - Buick barely acceptable GMC SUVs - pretty good(best USV interiors, IMO - hybrids/crossovers not included as "SUV"). Most everything else apalling. Honda - apalling. Toyota - also apalling other than the Avalon which is acceptable. RX-8 acceptable, if barely. Lexus - decent.

    It's not Domestic versus Imports. It's that 80% of ALL makers use far too much plastic to satisfy the bean-counters.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    So, if you have looked, is the 2007 SRX's interior good or bad? The 2006 (and earlier) was much like the CTS's.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    But let's just stick to the CTS in here, please. There are plenty of comparison topics available for those who want to talk about other models.

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  • thebugthebug Member Posts: 294
    It's not Domestic versus Imports. It's that 80% of ALL makers use far too much plastic to satisfy the bean-counters.

    plekto: I think it's more then just for the sake of the bean counters. Mostly we have made the manufactures turn to plastics, and things in the like. We the gov/public have demanded better fuel mileage, safer vehicles, all at a low, low price. Plastics are light and inexpensive. Heck, I remember when the dash of a car was made of solid metal, and this in the pre mandatory seatbelt days.

    I don't know about your CTS, but my CTS (I have the 03) has a very nice interior. In fact, the design of this interior was a major selling point for me. The dark solid color is easy on the eyes, it's easy to keep clean, very roomy, and IT DOESN'T SQUEAK OR RATTLE. That's one of my crazys.

    I spend about fourteen hours a day in the car (it's my office) so all those factors are very important. The new CTS design has a little more bling, but I think it will be okay in all black. I really hope you can get it without all the chrome on the outside. If not I'll live with it.
    In my experience with cars, the more parts they attach, the more part available to rattle loose and fall off later.


    Luxury to me is a solid and smooth ride, superior sound sound system, lots of gadgets, advanced telecommunication systems, style (and that's subjective of course) and a comfortable and ergonomically sensible interior design. That's what I have found in my CTS. Can't wait to get the new edition. Hope to be driving one Nov 07.

    In regards to plastics, (as basf would say), perhaps the face of luxury has changed.

    thebug...
  • darnacdarnac Member Posts: 31
    "IT DOESN'T SQUEAK OR RATTLE. That's one of my crazys." That is one actually two of my crazys as well and why I like my 2005 CTS Sport so much. I cant say the same of my 02 C-class I traded in.
  • nycdc911nycdc911 Member Posts: 27
    If you look closely at a picture of the new 08 CTS dash linked below, there are buttons for xm, hdd, and REC. Does that mean the 08 CTS can record satellite radio onto the hard drive? Some portable satellite radios like the inno can record up to 50 hours of xm programming, anyone know how this and something called tuneselect actually works? I imagine this feature would do for satellite radio what DVR and Tivo does for TV, makes it 10 times better and more convenient allowing people to skip everything except the good new songs they want to hear. Since satellite radio plays tons of overplayed songs we've already heard hundreds of times, this xm recording feature would be the only way to listen to nothing but great new songs from start to finish every minute you're in your car. Does 08 CTS have this satellite radio recording feature and does any other car available today or in the near future have it?

    http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=x08cact01717d1339bjg8.jpg
  • readerreaderreaderreader Member Posts: 253
    Okay - Audi - good. Volvo bad. Mercedes - some cars good, SUVs apalling. Ford - bad. GM - Cadillac good(CTS aside) - Buick barely acceptable GMC SUVs - pretty good(best USV interiors, IMO - hybrids/crossovers not included as "SUV"). Most everything else apalling. Honda - apalling. Toyota - also apalling other than the Avalon which is acceptable. RX-8 acceptable, if barely. Lexus - decent.

    It's not Domestic versus Imports. It's that 80% of ALL makers use far too much plastic to satisfy the bean-counters.

    --------------------------------------------

    They use plastic to satisfy you.

    Everybody likes to talk up a storm, but most luxury buyers are overextended already.
    They can't even afford the allegedly "cheapened" cars.

    Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The difference in materials between a luxurious interior and a stark one that looks luxurious but fails the second you touch it, since it's an illusion is....

    Not even a thousand dollars in materials.

    It's not rocket science, afterall, to make a car with plusher seats and some cloth on the door panels and so on.

    My sister's old 1988 Park Avenue was far more luxurious than any modern Volvo or Mercedes C class. Something's wrong if twenty-year old technology beats the new stuff.

    Plastic sucks, plain and simple. It's a clear cop-out by the manufacturers to squeeze profit at the expense of the consumer.(and dont even get me started on the joke bumpers have become)
  • ral1960ral1960 Member Posts: 74
    That would be a great feature if it does. I would quit paying for the XM after recording what I like (not particularly interested in new stuff).

    Where did you get that picture? I hadn't seen one with that much resolution before.

    Are those the radio preselect buttons below the nav screen?
    Never seen radio controls so spread out before.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .being first (if no one knows or few if any remember, etc) doesn't mean very much any more (if it ever did.) When I read the copy and looked at the pictures of the new CTS (in Motor Trend and the other usual suspects), my first thought was "wow" I actually like the styling.

    I liked the bumping up in power, the 300 HP option, the 6 speed transmissions (2 of them!) and AWD. The interior was damn near Audi-like it looked so good and the pearl orange color in Motor Trend and the Pearl Red (?) color in the Car and Driver blurb looked great.

    I read the text about the features, amenities, lighting touches, etc. Coupled all of that with my own personal knowledge about the LPS cars (I have a 2005 Audi A6) -- and came to the conclusion I really liked the car, especially if the price (non V version) with all the technology goodies doesn't go too far past the mid forties.

    Then I started down the mind game of ticking off all the "new for 2008" features this CTS boasts.

    They all seem to say the 2008 CTS will be brought up to 2005 LPS standards.

    I thought that was kind of pitiful AT FIRST.

    I mean pretty late to the 6 speed transmission game (speaking of the auto.) Pretty late to. . .uh, well, heck, it jus' doesn't matter.

    No one (for all practical purposes) 'cept a handful of us will know that the CTS has simply done a very nice job of copying (uh, better word: innovating!) the German and Japanese (well most of them) Lux cars.

    Someone a couple hundred posts ago said something like 90% of a BMW 5 series at 2/3rds the price (SOMETHING like that, anyway.)

    Now, me, I looked at the CTS perhaps more as a 3 series or A4 or C class competitor.

    Then I read and re-read the points about wheelbase, track and so forth and I backed up about 10 yards and squinted and sure enough, I thought for that moment the CTS was possibly a 5, A6 or E class "player." Then I stopped squinting and wondered if perhaps it also could be considered as vying for a Chrysler 300 customer too.

    The heck of it is, the CTS may actually be a worthy place to put your money compared to an A6 or 5 series or E class -- it certainly appears to have a lot of the creds (and a 6 speed manual, holy cow Batman!)

    My guess is this will be a great car and IF compared to a 5 series it MAY come off as the bargain of the bunch. Perhaps not so much if compared to the 3 series or the new B8 A4, or C class though.

    Here's the issue -- when one can lease a $53,000+ Euro car for 36 months with no cap cost reduction for a number beginning with a 6 and it isn't even possible to do that number at 48 months for the $43,000 'merican car with $2500 upfront, well the 'merican car just SEEMS to be so much more expensive even when it is $5 - $10,000 less at MSRP.

    Most of these cars are leased (or so says the dealers here in River City); the MSRP's sometimes seem irrelevant, its the mo pay that seals the deal. And, the mo pay, apparently, can be so low on some of these buggies because the residual is so high.

    This MUST NOT be the case with the CTS (at this juncture.)

    We are, hopefully, at a huge point of inflection -- and the CTS is substantial evidence that we MAY be. I WILL consider one -- for I would rather go with an American car if "voting for it" (with my dollars) is voting for the best car for the money, not just a patriotic vote. I would and will be up for the red, white and blue if they (this CTS for example) can equal the competition at less money (see above) or better the competition for the same money.

    No one will remember that the Audi A6 that was being built in July 2004 in Germany had "most all" of the "new and exciting" features and content Cadillac is going on about in this new CTS. And, for those of us that do remember, so what? Now, if the Europeans (or Japanese) raise the bar again in 2008, about the only thing that will make this new CTS attractive to some will be a deep, unhealable discount.

    I'm going to conclude with: "THE GLASS IS HALF FULL!" :surprise:
  • ral1960ral1960 Member Posts: 74
    Your reasoning is as convoluted as your writing.

    The CTS is roomier than a 5 series. It's more distinctive inside and out, and probably more comfortable than any of the cars you mentioned. It's less expensive to maintain than the Germans, and probably more reliable. Ok, it doesn't have the imported cache (aka snob appeal).

    How often do 99% of LPS buyers actually drive their cars at the limit, which is where the differences lie?

    Current CTS's are advertised with leases in the $300-400 range (ok, that's the small engine). I've heard from a salesman that they get a bigger commission from a lease, and you know where that money's coming from--You.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The roominess is relevant how? There are any number of cars that are roomier than a 5 series, roomier than a CTS and cost a lot less than the new one (apparently.)

    The CTS may strive to be a luxury performance car -- and lord knows I hope it will live up to what it is apparently going to be marketed as. I will assume that someone looking at a 5 or an A6 or an E class may not even look at a CTS, they MAY look at an STS, however.

    The CTS may well compete with the three Germans and the primary two Japanese cars in terms of roominess. But, the CTS is bringing content, features and build quality that the Germans and Japanese in this SIZE class have had for years.

    The CTS needed to step ahead of the competition, NOT only ahead of itself.

    The BMW has zero maintenance costs for 50,000 miles, the Cadillac costs more than zero. Audis until this year also included free maintenance, now it is a one time charge of $550 for 50K miles.

    You are correct, the CTS is more distinctive (TO YOU -- this is completely subjective, i.e.) inside and out. Hopefully it will be distinctive to a lot of new and returning customers.

    Comfort, however, is a bit more objective, and all of the other cars mentioned are more comfortable than the current CTS. The new CTS, hopefully and "probably" will be more comfortable than the current CTS.

    It may achieve parity [speaking of comfort] with these other 2004 design era cars. The problem is, all these other cars (including the BMW 3, Audi A4, Mercedes C class and Infiniti G class, to name three -- the three the CTS will compete against) have or will have new, updated cars coming to market at the same time the new CTS launches.

    The 5 series buyer who shops the CTS is "probably" rare.

    The Audi and the BMW in their current releases are very reliable -- "probably" the new Cadillac is or will be as reliable (and hopefully they will ALL get moreso.)

    Snob appeal like distinctiveness is another characteristic that is in the eye of the beholder -- do you think the BMW or Lexus has snob appeal? I don't -- in fact I grew up thinking Cadillac was a word used to describe something that had reached "the top." Cadillac was the "zenith" of cars. I think it still is -- or will be -- with this next release of CTS, STS, etc, competitive with almost anything from anywhere.

    To gain market share the product must be equal to or better than and the value proposition must be high to attract buyers who will, in 3 - 4 years, become repeat buyers.

    If I want a car in the $300-400/mo range, I can get a Chrysler 300 limited with AWD and a few options ticked off and have a roomier car that has the 5 speed transmission, a comfortable ride and a rear biased AWD system from the Mercedes E class circa 1999.

    The Americans ARE getting it -- but with the new CTS it is a work in progress (based only on the car magazine previews); a 2004 era car finally brought to market in 2008.

    Only if the Germans and Japanese don't move forward will the Cadillac be able to be competitive without some financial incentives. I think Cadillac will push to be more competitive with this new car via the financing program, i.e.

    The other guys in this list -- the direct CTS competition -- the A4, 3, G, IS (and maybe the ES) and C from Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus and Mercedes will certainly NOT stop moving forward, do you think?

    The "roomier class" of cars you suggest the CTS [should] competes with were, in late 2004, already at a content level that the upcoming CTS touts will be coming in the 2008 model.

    Cadillac has (or one can assume) with this new car, as Chrysler has with its 300, demonstrated it is capable of producing a high quality rich content vehicle replete with features the German and Japanese companies were putting in their entrants 3+ years ago.

    Yet, I still maintain this is NOT a bad thing -- because no one will remember that Infiniti's G and M were offered with AWD years ago, that Mercedes cars had up to 7 speed automatics and that all the BMW's and Audis now come with 6 speed autos and even offer the option of DSG or SMG clutchless manual transmissions.

    Fuel Stratified Injection, too, was put into Audi's A3, A4 and A6 years before the new CTS.

    No one will remember how most of the new Cadillac's "gee whiz" features and content are so last generation. The technology is still good, it is, for the CTS, a substantial and meaningful upgrade to be sure.

    Indeed these upgrades should sell a bunch more CTS's -- I certainly hope so.

    The thing is Cadillac needs to pull ahead of the entry level lux cars it will surely be compared with -- with this car it merely seems to be pulling even with the 2005, 2006 and 2007 MY cars -- and it is doing so with an MY 2008 car.

    Customers may not know that this upcoming CTS, although leapfrogging itself, still remains one lily pad behind the cars that "the market" will compare this new Caddy to.

    Somehow, I'd bet they'll figure it out -- and Cadillac will have to resort to discounting or hoping that there will be a few souls who will find an A6 or 5 series or E class "out of reach" and settle for a car that, after all, is roomier.

    Here is my guess: the new CTS will show up in comparo after comparo in Automobile, Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track -- it will be compared with the BMW 3, the Audi A4, the Mercedes C, the Acura (whatever), Infiniti G and Lexus IS.

    Why?

    Because the roominess of the "car in question" is not as much of an arbiter of automotive class as we may want.

    The Hyundai Azesis (or whatever) is bigger than a BMW 7 series -- no really! They do not, generally speaking, find themselves on the same shopping list.

    I'm still rooting for the new CTS and will be looking at it very closely. But I will be comparing it with the then new Audi A4 and Mercedes C. If I start looking at the 5 series or A6, I'll check out the STS.

    Drive it like you live! :surprise:
  • shannon984shannon984 Member Posts: 1
    so do you think that the CTS is particularly a man's car or a woman's car? and what age range do you think this car will ultimately appeal to? i would really like a chance to talk to you more about the 2008 CTS. and what the car says to you (I'm worried too many people will see it as an old person's car) are you looking to buy a luxury car or are you just a luxury car guru.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Two things will put it clearly at in the running, RWD and a manual transmission. To a sizeable segment of this market, having both is an absolute requirement.

    The BMW maintainence/warranty also isn't free. You pay so much more for a 5 series that you could replace dozens of things on the GM before you even break even. The GM also has a longer warranty on the drivetrain as well, which is nice I guess(never had major problems with any GM engine I've owned until it was over ten years old anyways).

    And when the warranty is over... Yeah. And "always lease" is a cop-out. A car should be reliable after the warranty is finished as well.

    But cost is a big factor. The number of luxury, RWD midsize sedans with a manual transmission is pretty small these days. Under $40K - even fewer.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have no clue as to the gender of the average CTS buyer. I also have no clue as to the age either. The CTS -- and I rent the CTS or the SRX whenever I am given a choice -- is a good attempt to create an entry level lux sedan. It has remained mostly fresh looking and modern.

    I was never a fan of the center dash stack of the CTS, but I don't find it particularly emasculating or Tom Boyish either.

    A CTS-V is one sweet secret hot rod. But at $50,000 an Audi S4 vs a CTS-V just made the V seem overpriced. There were also some potent Bimmers that could be had for that kind of scratch too. The Cadillac needed to be of higher value -- and, moreover, it was up against stiff competition from Europe (and possibly Japan.)

    The CTS was and is a fine car -- and with attractive leases (finally) the local Cadillac store was seemingly selling the CTS like hotcakes -- but only if the new Audi store, right next door, didn't attract folks in for a test drive of a new A4.

    Of course, if you needed the roominess, well the Cadillac did win that contest hands down over the Audi.

    But the driving experience was good for CTS, very good for most folks -- until they got behind the wheel of the German car from Audi, BMW or Mercedes.

    Again, only if the CTS lease price was substantially less, did it seem to avoid being dissed.

    I believe the new CTS will -- for a time -- give the entry level lux cars a run for their money. Then the inevitable gushing (in the magazine comparos) about the similarly priced 335i or 335xi will begin to seep into our collective awareness and the CTS will have to fight back with 100,000 mile warranties and sub-vented leases.

    All of this, despite its apparent criticisms, is, I think, good for Cadillac, GM and the buying public.

    This is a giant step for Cadillac, in some ways bigger than the first CTS -- for this is Cadillac's, GM's and the American car companies rising up from the near-dead.

    And the nearly broke.

    Hell, if the CTS with 300HP a sport suspension, technology package and AWD can be had for a number beginning with a 5, it may well be just the compelling argument Cadillac is hoping for.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Try a number starting at under $40K.

    Peolpe seem to forget that while GM could build a BMW 5 series, their whole goal is to do what Hyundai is to Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, and simmilar brands these days. Making 80%-90% of the same car for 2/3 of the price.

    Why pay silly money for a 5, a GS, or a E, when you can spend 10-20K less and get a car that drives almost as well plus costs a fraction to maintain. So much less that you might consider actually buying it instead of leasing it.

    Oh - I saw $299 leases on the 2006 models the last time I was in the Cadillac dealership. Payments to *own* a CTS were about the same as a lease on a 5 series - or very close to it.
  • ral1960ral1960 Member Posts: 74
    New Cadillacs have a bumper-to-bumper, 6 year, 100,000 warrantee.

    I'm 6'2" and one of the shorter and thinner ones in the family. I haven't tried recent ferrin cars, but I didn't fit well in the old ones. Most Japanese headrests would hit me in the back, and older Benzes didn't have enough headroom in the front and no foot room in the rear. Size is Important. I was about to add something snotty but I won't.

    Don't you think most premium car sales are based on snob appeal? Sometimes disguised as buying "quality."

    If you visit Cadillacowners.com, most of the traffic is young guys with CTS's. I would call it a guy's car, but the 08 is certainly more feminine in appearance.

    Take a look at Mercedez-benz-usa.com; the horror stories of lemons and bad service are almost unbelievable.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Wow! OK, one thing at a time.

    Cadillac is NOT Hyundai. Cadillacs are not 80% to 90% of the same car at 2/3 the price.

    Is a Chrysler 300C AWD with all the toys 80% to 90% of an Audi A8 or a Mercedes S class? Well it is probably 1/2 the price and about the same size. But the 300C, nice as it is, is not in the same automotive class as the others.

    The CTS is in a class (currently) that is aimed at the premium ENTRY LEVEL Euro and Japanese sporting sedans: think A4, 3, G, C etc. Its relative size being close to a BMW 5 does not make it a Luxury Performance Car any more than the hemi in the 300 makes it a ultra luxury performance car, size notwithstanding.

    I want this to be so, but that doesn't make it so.

    Silly money? There are thousands of BMW 5's sold in the US every month. Audi has just finished another up year, and so on. Lexus sells hundreds of thousands of cars, about 75% of them in the US.

    The cars -- like the 5 or the A6 do cost $5 to $10 thousand or more dollars than a CTS generally.

    But the STS, not the CTS is the car in the LPS class.

    A well equipped STS w/AWD overshoots $59,000 by about one Yugo.

    The CTS large as it may be isn't YET in the LPS class. It is a respectable wannabe. I re-read the new write up about the CTS, it is very desirable, more masculine than its predecessor would be my personal take, more attractive to the male of the species. The availability of a manual transmission, like BMW is a clue. The Audi A4 and BMW 3 can be had with a stick. Only the 5 series Bimmer in the LPS class can be so equipped.

    The CTS is priced and marketed to be the "more better" BMW 3 series -- and if it can beat the value proposition of the German, it will win a profitable share of customers -- perhaps some of them away from BMW.

    The issue, may be, for a time, an age issue. The Cadillac CTS like all the family still driven by folks above the target age of any car company. This is changing for Cadillac and that is a good thing.

    The XLR, hmmm, I've not ever seen one of them driven by a man or woman with "their own hair" if you get my drift.

    And, I do believe that the CTS, SRX, XLR and STS cars are able to be considered in the same breath as many ferrin' cars. The danger lies in making a class leap.

    If the CTS is able to compete with the BMW 5 in performance and beat the pants off it in value that is a good thing. However, there is scant current evidence that the CTS can do this.

    But the upcoming CTS if priced right (however you acquire yours) ought to give one pause when considering a more expensive BMW 335 or A4/S4 -- but then again there's that pesky newly announced C class Mercedes which seems to just ooze quality. And even Mercedes horrible track records are pretty much out of the realm of current events.

    The public has selective memory. After all, Mercedes, somewhat like Cadillac has a reputation that seems, somehow to overcome even the most shrill shrieks of its unreliability. Sure enough, the Merc is now climbing up the reliability ladder.

    Cadillac MAY have been more reliable, but it was also seen and widely reported (as if saying it made it so) as a higher quality vehicle. Quality, reliability and durability are three separate but related traits. People at this price point often buy quality, for they lease for such a short term that durability isn't too much of an issue and well, reliability of any of these cars means, fundamentally, one visit to the dealership every 10 - 15,000 miles (except for Infiniti which still demands to see you at least once every 7,500 miles.)

    A 0% Interest Cadillac CTS that was sold to you for $30,000 would be $500 per month for 60 months. The maintenance, were you a 15K mile per year person would be scary as would the repairs (although the 100K warranty obviates this for the most part.) BMW on the other hand is free maint for 50K miles and you only need to keep it 36 months, so you are always driving a new car. The BMW lease, typically is much lower than any American car lease and well, the payments to own that CTS (that is about the same as the 5 series) are not an apples to apples comparison.

    Equip the Cadillac, if possible, with similar packages and options as you can the Bimmer, then run the numbers.

    The BMW will be over $51K the way I would want one. The Cadillac would be over $40K. The Cadillac for 36 months on a buy would be over $1,000 per month at 0% interest. The BMW at some number under $55K would be less than $600 during much of the buying year and always under $700 per month -- for 36 months. To get the CTS to $500 per month would mean extending the payments to at least 80 months!

    This is not a definition of VERY CLOSE TO IT, is it?

    Compare the CTS to the A4, the 335, the IS or ES Lexus, the G35 from Infiniti, the C class from Mercedes -- then see where the value proposition lies.

    The theory goes the Cadillac should have the lower or lowest TCO (total cost of ownership), but now that the cars we are comparing the CTS to are in its same class (Premium Entry Level Luxury Sporting Sedan), the CTS just seems so damn much money (at present.)

    This impression is further exacerbated by the fact that the 2008 Cadillac will be brought to 2005 content and feature level when directly compared with its German and Japanese competition. And, damn if it isn't so, Audis new A4 will be hitting the showrooms just about when the CTS hits, ditto the new C class from Mercedes and the beat goes on.

    So yes, the new CTS is a quantum leap and probably will be a great car (it already is on paper.) It is more masculine than the outgoing car, more aggressive but also more emotional, less angular in some ways -- it will probably stir both genders to buy on looks alone.

    This honeymoon effect will last at most 6 months. The inherent goodness of the car will certainly propel sales. In some respects I would be happy to graduate to an American car even if I were merely trading in my 2005 vintage German for a 2008 American with most of the same features I had grown used to in my then 3+ year old German car.

    My point is not to dis the Cadillac, it is to point out the short shelf life of cars and features. Cadillac, to set the world standard again needs to bring its cars out in the same time frame as the other guys.

    They are, IMHO, late to the game in many of the features and functions they are pounding their chests over. Soft lighting, foot well lighting -- what next a passenger side mirror that dips when the car is put into reverse? My 1980's vintage German car did that for pity's sake.

    Rear heated seats? A tilt and telescoping steering wheel, lane departure warning a back up camera, front and rear parktronic a 6 or more speed autoshift that rev matches. Voice command of "everything?" ABS+brake Assist plus ESP plus, plus plus -- they say the American cars will have these things by 2012. I had ABS in 1986. My buddy had it in his 1985 BMW.
  • ral1960ral1960 Member Posts: 74
    Sorry, I pay cash for my cars. I bow to your superior experience.

    My only used car, the 74 Fleetwood I bought in college, had tilt/telescoping wheel, and you couldn't hear or feel the engine at idle. The 70's Eldorado had an extra door unlatcher for the rear seat passengers--an actually useful piece of one-up-manship.

    Remember BMW thinks idrive is great engineering.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Wow.. where to begin...

    The 2008 CTS *will be* 80-90% of a 5 series for 2/3 the price. That's going to be a cold, hard fact. And it's exactly the same strategy that Honda, Toyota, and now Hyundai used against GM for decades. Is it surprizing that GM might finally be learning how to play the game?

    The CTS may be entry-level for Cadilllac in the U.S., but it's crystal clear that they have skipped the compact segment entirely. They sell the BTS in Europe, which *is* 3 series/C class sized. So your argument falls flat as a Swedish Pancake. Isn't the internet great? Takes seconds to pull up GM's European sites.

    BMW and Mercedes are terrible in reliability because of one major thing. It costs 2-4 TIMES the money to fix the same repairs. Nothing you're going to say is going to change the fact that at the end of the year, you've not only repaired the car more times on average, but you paid blood to do so. 5-6 THOUSAND dollar transmissions. Brake jobs that cost over $1000. The list goes on and on...

    Many of their current owners are less than enamoured and that's why Lexus, Accua, Infinity, and even Volvo are sucking sales away. Wealthier, conservative types which make up about 75%+ of their demographic prize being economical and reliable greatly. They all put being economical with their TIME even higher on the list. They want luxury and status but that's a good value as well. And having your 5 series in the shop every few months isn't anyone's idea of spending your time wisely - especially if you are missing work to do so.

    A 0% Interest Cadillac CTS that was sold to you for $30,000 would be $500 per month for 60 months. The maintenance, were you a 15K mile per year person would be scary as would the repairs (although the 100K warranty obviates this for the most part.) BMW on the other hand is free maint for 50K miles and you only need to keep it 36 months, so you are always driving a new car.

    I had to quote this because it's just such a badly constructed argument that it'd get you a D in any debate or logic class. We're comparing a CTS being *bought outright* via one of GMs great financing deals - with a 6 year/100K mile warranty versus a three year *lease* of a BMW with a 3 year/50K mile warranty that you yourself admit you want to toss as soon as the lease is over.

    It's not apples to oranges. It's apples to a surfboard it's so far off.

    Talk about penny-wise and pound foolish. The amount of money you're throwing away on the BMW is enough to buy you a whole new engine in the CTS and then some. Except - the engine is covered for the duration of *two* BMW leases so that's not going to happen.

    When you are done with TWO BMW leases you own... nothing. The CTS, you paid the same and you have a 8-10K car you can resell. That buys a boatload of repairs or is a nice trade-in to drop $150-$200 a month off of your *next* car's payment.

    Or, lease the CTS for $300 a month and pay half as much. And yes, I did see a $300 a month lease on a CTS - I'll even get you a picture if you don't believe me.
  • ral1960ral1960 Member Posts: 74
    I saw a survey of German car owners last year. They rated German cars as most desirable, MB at the top of the heap. They also rated MB and VW as the worst ownership experience. (Of course, it didn't say how many actually owned foreign makes, so the statistics may be distorted, but there are other German car brands).

    2 of the 3 MB's I've driven were the old unturboed diesels, which distorts my perception, but I really think snob appeal drives most of their sales.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    markcincinnati,

    I honestly enjoyed reading your posts but like plekto said the content of it isn't true. You slip in some smiles about how nice the CTS, is but at the same time you are reaching around with a knife stabbing it in the back.

    The fact remains the Bimmer's, Audi's, Mercedes, you love and adore so much don't come close in reliability, warranty, cost of repairs. Gosh damn, the free maintence isn't free. I think you are smarter than that. It's built into the price. Nothing is free in the automobile industry. I agree the Germans and the Japanese, built superior quality cars in the 80's and 90's and had features you couldn't get on domestics. However we are living in 2007, and I don't see any must have features on the 08' Mercedes C class, BMW 335i/5 series, Audi A4/A6, Lexus IS 350, that Cadillac doesn't laready offer. The Mercedes C-class you love so much doesn't even have a better interior than the new Pontiac G8 that will be out this fall. If I did a comparo side by side
    (readerreader, help me out with this one pal with a pic) you should say boy Rocky, you are right. ;)
    Mercedes new C-class lacks the luxury of a ELLPS if you ask me. What distinctive feature does the BMW 335i or 5 series has that the CTS, doesn't have ????? The i-drive ? I'll pass !!!!!!!! The 335i also has standard vinyl/pleather seats which is a joke.
    The CTS, has enviromental friendly ventilated seats. Only the Lexus IS 350 to the best of my knowledge has that feature. The CTS, by far has the most upscale interior of the ELLPS. The only one that comes close in luxury is the IS350, but I can even find cost cutting inside that vehical. One example is the faux metal on the sport suspension model on the IS 350. I also find it amusing you have to either be a kid or a midget to fit in the rear passenger compartment ;) Audi, might offer a great interior but the color of the wood and design don't go hand and hand IMHO. The Audi, also lacks the neccessary performance to be a ELLPS sedan. you have to drop over $50 large ones to get a S4 and even at that price level it lacks the features of the CTS. The Acura TL, was gadget filled back in 2004 but 3 years later it's gadgets are found on most other cars. The 2009' TL, could raise the bar once again. You also mentioned the other brands will have new cars out when the 08' CTS hits the market....WHAT ????? The 335i just came out this fall, the Mercedes C class will be out next fall and as we've seen it's not in the same league as the 08' CTS, the Lexus IS 350 came out in 2006 and I've seen no plans for it except for a IS-F 500 model that will get it's [non-permissible content removed] whipped by the 09' 550-600 hp. CTS-V, Audi A4 came out new for 06' and the G35 just came out this last fall. I don't see how you can justify how the 08' will be outdated when released this fall ???? :confuse:
    If anything all the others will be outdated when the CTS, comes out this fall. I'd like to know what features your beloved Germans have over the CTS ????? Are you going to boast about how that plastic arm pushes the seat belt forward for the 335i driver ? :P Geeez.... :confuse:

    So when you factor in warranty, reliability, quality, gadgetology, fuel economy w/(regular gasoline) you can't find a better ELLPS sedan on the market for the money IMHO. I think the projected 70+K annual sales will be the judge. ;)

    Rocky
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    You are way off base by saying the '08 CTS just caaught up to 2004 European cars. That is a complete lie. If the CTS was available in 2004 it would've been head an shoulders above the competition. The current 3 series wasnt even out and the "uplevel" engine for the last generation 328 was a 225hp I-6. There are tons of features available on the 2006 3 series and '07 G35 that werent available on the old cars. The last gen G35's interior was a joke and the G35 offered great value, but little in the way of class exclusive features. You are giving the Europeans way too much credit and are confusing their current offerings with their offerings of 4 years back. The CTS is wholly competitive with every recently introduced entry luxury sedan, including the 2008 C class. It is way beyong playing catch up with 4 year old models.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I hope you are correct.

    Again, I am planning on placing the CTS on my list -- but try as it might it is unlikely to show up over on the LPS board here on edmunds. It is unlikely to show up being tested against a BMW 5; yet, if it is, it will be one of those comparos that arise from time to time that tests two vehicles that are not generally considered in the same class. A test including the other entry level contestants is likely.

    Even a test that includes a Toyota Avalon is certainly within the realm of possibility.

    The entire point of discussing the new 2005 CTS badged as a 2008 is to simultaneously compliment and critique Cadillac. I applaud the evidence that suggests Cadillac is or has already gotten the message.

    I am somewhat perplexed why additional differentiators weren't engineered into the car. It will differentiate itself on looks and price, I guess. Its announced features and content bring it to par -- but the other guys will either refresh or replace within one MY or concurrent with the CTS's coming to market.

    Well equipped the CTS will climb to the mid to high forties? I say this based on the STS, which comes on with an attractive price but requires (apparently) the addition of 5 figures worth of options to be performance competitive with a 5 series.

    The BMW 5 series is the car that Cadillac trots out in Car and Driver's editor for a day affairs. I have been lucky enough to participate and here is what happens. A base automatic equipped BMW 5 series is pitted against an STS optioned to the point that it has a sport suspension, magnaride, plus sized wheels and tires and UHP tires.

    The BMW, again a base model, is equipped with all season tires and wheels that are 1" smaller and without sport package. Both cars have navigation systems and leather interiors, etc.

    The Cadillac STS V6 is put through its paces then up next same thing with the BMW. After doing this routine 4 times, I concluded that the Cadillac performed better. The Cadillac and the BMW were comparable in price (MSRP.)

    Next up, go on line and configure both cars then press the finance button. The BMW was less money per month, by far, and the maintenance was "included" in the price.

    On the other side of the race track, the CTS, similarly equipped (up scale in the performance bits) is being put through its paces against a Lexus ES. Again price parity is reached and the CTS outperforms the Lexus.

    The pricing here at MSRP is, again, close. The leasing equation favors the Lexus. Lexus sells some 400,000 cars annually, over 75% of them here. They are very good at figuring residual and hence they can charge less for their cars in the way most folks acquire them.

    On another point somewhere above, why would you pay cash for a car that can be had for 0% financing for up to 72 months? And the argument that you have something at the end of the term is true, but it is the TCO that needs to be evaluated to determine if what you have at the end of the lease will have saved you money. And, you will have to determine the opportunity cost of NOT always having a car less than 4 MY old.

    There are reasons to lease and I'd be the first to admit it isn't for everyone. But the fact that these entry level and LPS level cars are, in the majority, leased is just that a fact. The reasons may well be sub-venting by the mfgr -- but just like 0% financing, who cares if it can lower YOUR TCO?

    The new CTS may or may not end up on someone's shopping list alongside a BMW 5 or Mercedes E or Audi A6 or Lexus GS or Infiniti M, etc. If that is true, I would suspect the shopper would simply wander across the showroom floor to see what the STS can offer.

    I hope your final statement: "for the money," is accurate. And if Cadillac sub-vents the lease or discounts or whatever they need to do to improve the value proposition, you will probably be proven to be correct.

    I think we are actually more in violent agreement than in disagreement.

    The key area where we disagree is in thinking the CTS will be pitted agains the BMW 5, Mercedes E and the rest of the LPS usual suspects.

    It's not Timex vs Rolex, but it isn't Rolex vs Rolex by a long shot. Perhaps in keeping the theme, it is Tissot vs Rolex. They both keep time, but one shopping for a Rolex is probably not likely to go for the Tissot instead even though it keeps time as well as the more expensive piece.

    If the CTS is able to rival my A6 or the then current BMW 5, I will applaud it. I seriously doubt that either of these Germans are too concerned about the CTS eating into their middle child's sales.

    Now, the CTS vs a 335 or an A4, that may give these guys some concern -- for in its class the CTS (on paper at least) appears to be "more." To me, it also appears that it might be a bit pricey when it comes down to the "normal" way these things are acquired.

    I can't wait to test this new Cadillac -- I want to want one -- no really, I do. :surprise:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I said that the upcoming CTS will rise to be on par with the 2005 versions of the LPS cars. The thread here is that some folks think the CTS will compete against the LPS cars and at present I think it will be classed with the entry level lux perf cars like the 3, A4, etc.

    If a 2008 CTS was available in 2004 it would have been head and shoulders above its direct competition, the Bimmer 3, the Audi A4, the Mercedes E, the Infiniti G, etc -- I agree.

    The premise is that the 2008 CTS has adopted the features of the 2005 era LPS cars and that that somehow gives it the street creds to compete with the 2008 BMW 5, Audi A6, and so on.

    My contention is the new CTS leapfrogged itself and is coming to market with 2005 era LPS content. I did not suggest, or if I did I retract it, that the 2008 CTS innovated features from 2004-2005 engineered entry level lux performance cars. It has taken features and content from the LPS cars of that vintage.

    It has broken no new ground that would suggest it, with this transformation, can now compete with the LPS cars such as the 5. Other than roominess, it just doesn't have enough to differentiate it from the last generation of LPS cars.

    It, hopefully for Cadillac, will have enough content to be seen on-par with the then new B8 A4 and the updated 335i and AWD version. The new G35 is already here and will, as usual, keep raising the bar too.

    Cadillac leapfrogs itself, good. Cadillac may well be leapfrogged within one MY by the other guys (before it is ready or able to leap again) -- it keeps playing a game of catch up.

    However, therefore, notwithstanding -- it IS catching up. :shades:
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Its announced features and content bring it to par -- but the other guys will either refresh or replace within one MY or concurrent with the CTS's coming to market. "

    Wrong. The C class is not even out yet, the IS was new for 2006, the G35 was new for 2007 and the 3 series was JUST improved for 2007 with the 300hp engine. The CTS' competition is very new and dont look for major updates soon.

    "I say this based on the STS, which comes on with an attractive price but requires (apparently) the addition of 5 figures worth of options to be performance competitive with a 5 series. "

    Incorrect. Go to Caddy's website and compare a base STS V6 or V8 with a 5 series and e class. YOu will see that the STS has just as much standard equipment as both cars and costs less. An optioned up STS is far cheaper than a loaded 5 series or E class.

    "A base automatic equipped BMW 5 series is pitted against an STS optioned to the point that it has a sport suspension, magnaride, plus sized wheels and tires and UHP tires. "

    Wrong again. Either your test was different from the one I attended or you are mistaken. The STS at our event was a V6 with 17" wheels (meaning no sport package) and it was compared to a 530 with 17" wheels. The cars were comparably equipped. Cadillac isnt stupid enough to try and over equip their car. Next you'll be telling me the STS had a V8 while the BMW had a 6. The CTS at our event was a non sport model with 16" wheels and the 255hp engine. It was not unfairly equipped to battle the Es330 in any way.

    The CTS is large enough to be compared to the 535 or E350. That is the bottom line. Pricewise the CTS is competition for the 3 and C but it's larger than both cars. The new CTS is nice enough to be compared with the 6 cylinder versions of the A6, E and 5 series.

    R&T compared the old car to the 530, A6, S80, e320 and 300 a few years back and the CTS came in first. If you are doing things according to size and power the CTS can be compared to midsize European luxury cars.

    "If the CTS is able to rival my A6 or the then current BMW 5, I will applaud it. I seriously doubt that either of these Germans are too concerned about the CTS eating into their middle child's sales. "

    The A6 isnt a huge seller. Audi should be gunning for CTS sales, not vice versa. I dont think Cadillac even worries about Audi when designing cars except to benchmark their interiors. In terms of sales, Audi isnt even on Caddy's radar.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The Cadillac STS V6 RWD we had had 18" wheels and was optioned with a sport suspension.

    Indeed, the test of the two cars I attended pitted a then LY 530 (225HP) with a then CY STS V6 (255HP.) This is the only way the Cadillac was able to beat the 530.

    Not knowing the day was arguably rigged in Cadillac's favor, I asked my co-driver what we were driving: he answered every question I asked, but never would volunteer anything beyond what I asked.

    We were driving a NEW 2005 BMW 530i with 17" wheels and All Season H rated tires. We were then driving a NEW 2006 STS V6 with 18" wheels and summer only ultra high performance tires and the Cadillac had a sports package and the BMW had its standard suspension.

    There were BMW owners in the car with me that simply couldn't figure out why the Cadillac seemed so strong -- until, at least, our instructor answered our pointed questions.

    At the event we attended, it wasn't until the very end when we were guided to a tent for our "parting gifts" that it hit us that this was a Cadillac event (the tent had three new Cadillacs in it and we were given a Cadillac ball cap and a tote that had the wreath and crest on it.)

    The point in any case is that the test pitted the STS against the BMW 5, the CTS was pitted against a Lexus ES (the fancy Camry.)

    Nothing I am saying takes away from my impression of the Cadillacs. I was impressed. The issue I am having is that the Cadillacs at that time seem to require a special advantage to win. Then the fact that they were quoted as being similarly priced (at MSRP) yet the BMW's are lower on a lease (per month), makes the Cadillacs, good as they are, a generation behind the competition.

    The STS's here in river city are often discounted as much as $9,000 off MSRP -- which when you factor in the "value" proposition probably does make them more attractive to a BMW customer who is "on the bubble."

    The C WILL be out within one MY of the new CTS. A new A4 will be out within one MY of the new CTS. A freshening and updating of the BMW will happen within one MY, too. Most likely the Bimmer's interior will be given a shot of vitamin B12 and BMW's interiors will (finally) graduate out of the stoic class. The materials in the new Cadillac may start out as superior to the competition, but -- within one MY -- either the new models or the "refreshening" of the recently brought to market competition will, if history is any guide, surpass the Cadillac.

    I am happy to go back and forth and back and forth during this rather engaging discussion -- but what got me started down a path that you (all) must think is intentionally negative was the statement that the CTS competes with the BMW 5 and other LPS cars (LPS as defined here by edmunds.)

    I believe the Audi A4, BMW 3 and Mercedes C ARE on Cadillac's radar -- big time.

    So, if we want to "discuss, argue or advance a point or two" comparing the CTS to the other ELLPS cars that is ok by me. If we, conversely, want to discuss the merits of classifying this new (or current gen) CTS as an LPS car, that, too is ok with me.

    The STS with the options that make it competitive PERFORMANCE wise with the other LPS cars IS over $60,000. It is not a high value prop (without the aforementioned $9,000 discount.)

    The CTS, the NEW CTS, I assume, likewise will have to be optioned out to at least the mid forties or higher and then, once again, it will butt heads with the NEW B8 A4, the (within one MY) refreshed 335, the incoming and new C class and the [minor] upgrades the G35 will most certainly bring for MY 2008.

    The issues are "generation" and "TCO."

    The Cadillac seems as if it will come out one generation behind the other guys and have a similar TCO when one considers the residual (which affects both the lease payment and the cash value of the car if bought outright.)

    One more time -- I am a bit disappointed that the car seems to be coming out a step behind; but, regardless it is a huge step forward and does indicate that Cadillac is closing the gap.

    To command the price, however, I contend it will have to fully close the gap and perhaps pull just slightly ahead of the other guys.

    The CTS in its 5 year history has not shown any proclivity to do that. There is reason for hope -- but, at this moment, there isn't much evidence it will, this time around, go the distance.

    I'd get one for $9,000 off though (or whatever would translate, perhaps $5,000 or $6,000 off.) :surprise:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Now I do know we are talking HERE on this forum about the UPCOMING CTS. And, I don't intend (nor intended previously) to pile on the CTS. But Cadillac did begin marketing this car in 2003 as their answer to the Audi A4, BMW 3 series, etc. Perhaps there was HOPE back during the early years that the CTS would be compared to the BMW 5's and the Audi A6's and the Mercedes E's. By some accounts this HOPE didn't float.

    As recently as 2006, comments pertaining to the CTS (not the CTS-V which is not being addressed here, by any of us) were often not complimentary.

    "The company still may have quality control problems and none so blatant on the exterior as the rippled orange-peel texture of our test vehicle's "premium" red paint. Hyundais have better paint jobs. The shoddy finish on the model we tested might be an anomaly — if not, Cadillac is remiss in thinking it can compete with European luxury brands."

    Forbes Magazine


    Forbes (and others) went on to say: "Certain cars just feel right from the moment you slip into the driver's seat — pedals, steering wheel, shifter and outward visibility all exactly as you'd want them. The CTS is not one of these vehicles. . .[and] the fit and finish are shoddy in spots."

    Of course at the same time Audi and Lexus interiors were claimed to be "jewel-like." And Audi in particular was said to be the standard by which automobile interiors should be judged.

    Those who write this stuff for a living classify the CTS's competitors as follows (the current one, and you can bet initially even the new one will be compared thusly):

    Acura TSX
    Audi A4
    BMW 3 Series
    Chrysler 300C
    Saab 9-3
    Volvo S60

    In a Car and Driver 8 car comparo, the CTS finished 6th -- again this is the current car, there are only teasers for the upcoming vehicle -- thus far not even any preview tests.

    Highs: Distinctive machete-hewn styling, "GM" and "handling" are an oxymoron no longer, solid torque, lustrous paint.

    Lows: Exhaust drone, blurry controls, dime-store dash; a generation behind the competition.

    The Verdict: An extended teaser for the next CTS.


    A key point made seems to echo what I have been bemoaning in my posts here -- the CTS NOW is a generation behind the competition and the upcoming CTS only gains parity if one assumes the competition will NOT advance, not move forward.

    This suggests [to me] that Cadillac has produced a fine car that will still not make it into the top 5 without some serious discounting. Nothing even comes close to suggesting it will compete head on with a 2008 BMW 5 series (other than in the category called "roominess.")

    None of these reviews and previews dissuade me from considering the CTS, I do like the looks of it, the interior has been (based on the pictures) transformed to "almost jewel like," and the 258 and 300 HP engines promise to be very entertaining coupled to their new 6 speed auto OR manual. The addition of AWD, seemingly the current "price of admission" too is welcome.

    I just wonder if all this is just "almost" enough to qualify the CTS as simply moving closer to the competition but not YET able to remain even or pull ahead of the competition.

    "GM vehicles aren't bashful about their budget engineering, and the CTS is no exception. The dash and door-trim plastics share an excessively deep industrial-pattern grain with disposable cameras. Only the center radio console with its rubbery matte finish feels fancy. Fuzzy-lint cloth lines the trunk, and a plain plastic acoustic cover hides the engine with no more verve than a Tupperware lid.

    Although pricier than the Acura, Infiniti, and Saab, the CTS had the fewest number of features, lacking navigation (the Acura and the Saab have it), a sunroof, a power passenger seat, and a telescoping steering column — all of which are found in the other cars. Flat, formless seats gave rise to griping in both the back and front chambers as drivers and passengers slid about. A step-on emergency brake was deemed decidedly unsporty. We appreciated the steering-wheel radio controls but would have preferred a simple "seek" button to four individual preset buttons."

    Car and Driver


    Yikes! :confuse:

    A tease for the 2008 CTS, indeed!
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