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2008 Cadillac CTS

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Comments

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    2007 G35X :
    306 hp engine
    navigation system
    9.5 GB hard drive
    back-up camera
    adaptive headlights
    bluetooth
    all-wheel drive
    5-speed automatic transmission
    of course: leather, Bose, heated seats, moonroof
    all for about $38,500
    ****
    ****Note - this also applies to the CTS****

    Engine - good.
    - Navigation - A $200 Garman unit will work better.
    - 9.5 Gig HD? Just get an Ipod or Zen or whatever.
    - Bluetooth and the camera and such? These are surely gimmicks that will break in the first 4-5 years.
    - All Wheel Drive is useless unless it's full-time and evenly distributed. I'm not holding my breath. AWD also makes the steering suffer like a FWD vehicle.
    - moonroof? Useless since the thing is too far back to be seen out of while driving. Prone to leaking and breaking as well.
    - Heated seats are nice, though. So is leather if it's real full-grain leather and not this manmade crud.
    - Lastly, Bose is junk for the price, pure and simple. Just get some good aftermarket speakers if you car and save a thousand dollars.

    It never ceases to amaze me the money people waste on fluff and junk in their cars. What's much more important, IMO, is what you get in the base models of the two cars, because anyone can pimp out a luxury car these days with eenough options and money.
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    I agree with you on the base models. That is, of course, the bread and butter of the vehicle. But, also consider the market segment: luxury or near luxury. People want the toys, that's a big reason for buying them to begin with. Again, I like the looks of this new CTS. I just hope GM doesn't price it too high. GM is clearly pushing this new vehicle big time and touting everything about it... All I'm saying is that nothing in it is groundbreaking. Although, I love the look of the car and I really would like to buy American. It seems as though this has been the car I've been waiting for. We'll see soon enough. If you're just talking base then here we go:

    Base G
    306 hp engine
    17 inch wheels
    five speed automatic

    Base CTS
    258 hp engine
    17 inch wheels
    manual transmission

    I do like a manual sometimes but I get sick of it after a while. With the CTS the automatic is about a $1000 option.

    When you wrote ****Note- this also applies to the CTS***

    I hope you're right... Like I said this forum and I think an article from Autobytel (not 100% sure) stated a fully loaded AWD, 300 hp, automatic tran. will MSRP for $45,000. I hope that information is incorrect...
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    I think 45000 will be incorrect for a loaded 2008 CTS. I think it will be closer to $50K if you look at all the options.

    Base car say is $34k
    Automatic is $1.2K
    Navi is $2.0K
    AWD is $2.0K
    Sunroof is $1.2K
    Leather Seats Package $2.0k
    Luxury Level One Package $1.0k
    Luxury Level Two package $2.0K
    18in Wheels Package $2.0k
    Direct Injection $2.0k

    Just my guesses based on past history of the STS and CTS prices. Take a look at the ordering guide to see how you can option it
  • bruceomegabruceomega Posts: 250
    plekto,

    Regarding "All Wheel Drive is useless unless it's full-time and evenly distributed":

    If the CTS uses the same system as the STS, then according to the Cadillac web site it is full-time and evenly distributed, 40% front and 60% rear as the baseline (before adjustments to dynamic driving conditions).

    This is the same as BMWs X-Drive, I believe, which is full-time, even distribution with a starting point of 40% front and 60% rear.

    Not familiar with the Infinity AWD.

    Bruce
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    We'll have to see. The problem is in exactly how it is handled. ie - whether it is part-time and playing games with software or it is actually like the Mercedes and Subaru systems in which it is actually engaged at all times.

    The only smart thing economically, ever, is to buy the base model of a car and maybe 1-2 specific low cost options. All the bling and frills just eat into your wallet at the front end and are worth not a dime 8-10 years later.

    So what the car comes with as standard equipment is critical. This is actually the #1 reason people are pushed away from Ford and GM's passenger cars. Not because the thing is a bad car, but the process of buying it is convoluted. You see either stripped down rental fodder on the lot or you see a fully loaded model that has a price that's suddenly 30% over the base price!.

    People want a simple A, B, or C choice - nothing more than that. Honda is a pro at this - you get maybe one or two tiny options on each trim level and otherwise, that's it. What you see is what you get. And it helps resale values as well, because the more bling, the bigger the depreciation on the car. A $40K Accura with no options versus a $30K Infinity with 10K in options... It's not hard to see which one is going to eat you alive down the road.

    And the same price base model in this case is usually a model up. ie - instead of getting a loaded Mazda 3, you get a base Mazda 6, which is virtually identical in features.(just better ride and better power)
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    I hope your wrong on that one... GM needs to figure out if they want to compete with the BMW 3, A4, Infiniti G, C-Class, or if they want to up the ante and go for the BMW 5, A6, Infiniti M, E-class. I understand that the CTS dimensions are larger than the other entry-level sedans and I think that gives it an advantage. But to charge $10,000 to $15,000 over the other entry levels certainly puts them into a new class of cars. Maybe they want that but it puts me out of the game and I would suspect many others.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The 2008 CTS is a 5 series competitor. For a lot less money.

    GM makes a 3 series competitor, the upper-end Saab 9-5. Well, it's their version of a 3 series. Heh. In Europe, the same car with a bit different sheetmetal and such is marketed as the BLS and to date hasn't sold more than about 5,000 in 3-4 years(total lot anchor that nobody wants to touch). So GM is actually quite smart to not offer the BLS over here and just aim for the midsize range.
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    Plekto,
    It all depends on what you want out of the car. If you plan on keeping it 8-10 years then of course all the technology will be obsolete. In ten years this direct injection engine will be obsolete if you want to push it that far. I look at the depreciation values over three to four years of a vehicle as that is about how long I keep them. Also, you can't compare Ford/GM passenger cars with luxury cars from Mercedes, Cadillac, Infiniti, BMW. Again, people want the toys on these cars that is why they are shopping luxury brands. Most people who go looking for a Ford Five Hundred don't care about navigation or a lane departure system. People spending about $40,000 want this stuff. All of these car companies take surveys of customers past, present, future to find out what they want. Well, people must want these things because they are in all of these cars, regardless of model. Also, the competitor of the G is the TL. The TL with no options is not $40. The MSRP ranges from 33 to 38. The G ranges from 31 to 35. Both have excellent resale value.
  • bingomanbingoman Posts: 373
    Pucks, you are double counting. The nav is included in the level two package and the direct injection engine is included in the 34k base level 2.
  • len00len00 Posts: 22
    I think that making the CTS a BMW 5 series competitor is a mistake. They have carved out a niche because the CTS dimensions are larger than the smaller entry-level cars. This is a great selling point for the car. My point being, if they can keep their price competitive with the G, 3, and C then they have the advantage due to its dimensions. If they decide to take on the 5, E class, or M I think they may have a problem. Let's not forget, GM needs to rebuild its reputation. These other cars, ie. the 5, M, E class have build up a solid reputation over many years and have a solid base of support. I think that with a brand new design (new engine) that isn't consumer tested is going to have a hard time taking people from camp BMW or Mercedes and switching them over. I suppose if they want to position themselves between a 3 series and 5 series they may create a market for themselves or.... they may not.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,507
    “I think 45000 will be incorrect for a loaded 2008 CTS. I think it will be closer to $50K if you look at all the options.”

    I suppose we could speculate on price all day, but we just don’t know – yet.
    I expect that we WILL know shortly.

    Looking on-line at the MSRPs of dozen of so 2007 CTSs in stock at my local dealer, the highest I see is $41.8K. 3.6 w/Automatic, Luxury Pkg, Premium Paint & Sunroof.

    My guess is that a 2008 w/AWD and comparably equipped would carry an MSRP of no more than $45K. Simply because it is still a CTS - and the 2007 STS w/3.6L V6 and AWD MSRP is currently $45.4K. The STS V6 Luxury Performance with AWD is approx. $52K. And given recent sales history, it seems to me very unlikely that STS prices will increase significantly for 2008.

    And I really, REALLY believe that
    ( for several reasons )
    Caddy must become very aggressive in pricing.
    Right now.

    We’ll see . . .
    - Ray
    Waiting to see what actual CTS pricing does look like . . .
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    No, the nav is not included in the level two package. At least not according to the online ordering guide description. And in terms of the 34k base -- thats just a guess on my part for the 3.6l 258hp engine. If the 2007 CTS w/ 3.6 is 33.5 right now, I can't imagine they are giving you the 3.6 w/ DI for 34k. Already included in that 34k is the bose upgrade (which is a 1000 option this year) and 17in wheels. I can't imagine this car starting less than 34k (w freight)
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    Right, put that 41.8k includes the free bose edition (bose+sunroof) for 2.2k. That gets you to 44k. Then, it seems they discountinued the Sport Package. That was another 3k. That is back for next year. So you rae now up to 47k. Without DI and AWD.....

    I hope I'm wrong on the prices because I will be buying one. Just have to see the prices to see if it will be stripped or equipped!!
  • bingomanbingoman Posts: 373
    Pucks
    You are correct. The navigation is included in the PDQ option (Premium Luxury Collection) which includes the Luxury Level One and Two packages.

    I have seen estimates of $30k and $33k for the base prices of the 6DM69 and 6DP69 models. The only differences between these two are the engines and some minor differences in the wheel and tire options.
  • puckspucks Posts: 47
    $30 and $33 would be great for the base and DI equipped base. I don't think it will happen. At the NYIAS the Caddilac rep said low 30's to start "because the 2.8L won't be offered". That led me to believe that 33k + freight would be the base 3.6L. He also said it would top out in the mid 40's. I think that might be a little low...but let's hope the base car is closer to 30k.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,071
    The CTS for '08 looks like a great next step for Cadillac.

    Its size (and content for that matter) does not make it in the 5 series, E series, A6, M class or GS class from the other guys.

    It needs to be offered with EVERY possible toy for some number under $45K. Otherwise there would seem to be so many folks who would just go for the BMW 3 series (or the A4 or or or.) The CTS, this time, if it is anywhere close to the STS's price would seem to be made somewhat less attractive.

    The STS with the lux performance, AWD and V6, if it is but $2 or $3K more at MSRP than the CTS, would make the CTS somewhat of a hard sell, at least that would be conventional thinking [and mine.]

    These cars need more technology, not less. I guess this stuff breaks. My experience has been that the kind of things that break are motors (like power window motors and controllers, for instance.) I have had 7 cars with sat nav, never a problem. Bluetooth ought to be mandatory or at least a prerequisite to allowing the driver to drive and speak on the phone at the same time -- far as I know it has no moving parts and is also, like most of the current gen of electronics likely to outlive most of us.

    Perhaps a person looking at a Lexus ES would cross shop a CTS (and I pity the poor driver who opts for the ES, unless he/she only drives mostly in a straight line.)

    The CTS is a great great step forward for GM and Cadillac.

    I am often wrong (but never uncertain), but this time it certainly seems the product is right IF the price for a loaded version (after some discount) remains about the price of a current maxed out CTS plus about $2K for the all important safety and performance that will accompany AWD. :surprise:
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Its size (and content for that matter) does not make it in the 5 series, E series, A6, M class or GS class from the other guys
    ***
    Well, it certainly equals the base 5 series in most aspects AND it obliterates it in cost and reliability.

    The E Class is such a joke now that it deserves to be DOWNGRADED to the level of an Avalon or Lucerne, quite frankly. (the S is still a big deal though)

    And versus the A6, it also compares favorably from what I can see so far. It's a solid midsize luxury sedan with a little bit of sport in it.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,244
    is great, so long as GM continues to support it, or so long as GM can afford to do what it wants.

    I'm soon to be a refugee from the Ford Motor Company effort (well, flash in the pan) to play in this milieu, the Lincoln LS. A car like this will always have a market in the U.S., so long as the OEM beancounters continue to support it. The Ford guys didn't.

    They had to deal with the Exploder tire fiasco, along with the typical large-company lack of (long-term) strategy (I'm sure the Volvo/Jaguar team had a party when the LS was axed). So, after a single update, the car/platform/idea/dream went down the glory hole. The thing simply cost more to make than they could sell it for -- that aluminum hood, front fenders, suspension & other stuff cost too much. But, it was worthy, as was the Merkur (also Ford). The CTS may not cost GM too much, but is it nice? I don't know -- just asking.

    GM came in with the CTS a couple of years after Frod did the LS, but they appear to have actually remained committed to the project, and it's endured. . .so far. Having been stung once by an American Johnny-come-lately & not enamored of the styling (exterior & interior), I'll take a pass.

    That said, best of luck to those of you who are willing to continue to support an American competitor to BMW, Infiniti, Lexus & the others.

    Fool me once. . .
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,507
    I bought both a Y2K and a 2003 ( after the “single update” you refer to ) Lincoln LS V8.

    Although my primary interest here is in the “–v” CTS, expected some time next year, with some sort of V8 and ( I hope ) a manumatic trans. this time around, I am encouraged that GM \ Caddy has committed the time & $$ to development of the CTS. It appears that if there is to be a serious RWD \ AWD Sport Sedan from a domestic manufacturer in the near term that interests me, it will be from GM.

    I find it interesting that the 2008 CTS DI 3.6L V6 will have over 300 HP, given that my 2000 LS’s V8 had 252 and the 2003 had 280 – and the ( related ) 2007 Jaguar 4.2L V8 has [ drum roll ] 300.

    I don’t think any US manufacturer can now guarantee “continued support” for anything. They all face very difficult times. Yet what I know now about the new 2008 CTS and the mere existence of the current CTS-v suggests strongly to me that GM \ Caddy IS very serious about continuing to ‘support’ the CTS.

    I happen to prefer big Torque & low RPM for cruise – hence my primary interest in the “-v”. My crystal ball shows a 6L+ V8 with a six speed manumatic ( 6L80, like in my Corvette ) available, and a rear suspension better able to cope with that TQ than the current CTS-v’s. And if some of the chrome on the front of the ‘regular’ CTS is changed to body color, the styling may appeal to me. A lot. We’ll see what actually rolls off the assembly line.

    The other domestic sedan that is on my current short list is the G8 V8. GM published specifications include 6.0L V8, 6L80, IRS, LSD, and many other features that I find very attractive. Though it will not rise to the level of luxury equipment that will be available on a CTS, clearly neither will the price be as high as even the current CTS-v. Preliminary reviews of the Commodore version are promising. But I will likely at least wait until details of the CTS-v are released before making any decision.

    So – when you leave Ford – what do you plan to buy?
    - Ray
    Addicted to RWD, HP & TQ . . .
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    I actually hope the CTS-V is NOT watered down to a manumatic. For those folks who want a V8 + Automatic there is the CTS regular w/V8 available. The CTS-V is essentially a race car with leather and a nice stereo. That's the idea behind the V series is luxury coupled with real race car stats. I believe also that they would need to sell a certain number of MT versions in order to compete with the CTS in certain sanctioning bodies races.

    Interestingly a friend who is not at all a "car guy" looked at the STS AWD v. his Jaguar X-type and went with the X-type due to the bundling on the STS of Bluetooth with the Navigation. He wanted stand alone blue tooth and couldn't get it in the caddy apparently but could in the jag. He also said the turn signals felt/sounded like his '85 Caddy Deville and he thought they should have been updated. Weird how luxury buyers think.

    -mike
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,507
    “For those folks who want a V8 + Automatic there is the CTS regular w/V8 available.”

    I have seen nothing about a “regular” CTS available with a V8. Only V6s.

    Source?

    - Ray
    Confused . . .
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Oh really? I was assuming there would be a regular CTS w/V8, the previous version had the "regular" CTS w/V8 so I assumed that the 2nd gen would have it as well. Why would they drop the V8 "regular" CTS?

    -mike
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    IIRC, there has never been a regular CTS with a V8; just the "V".
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,507
    “Oh really? I was assuming there would be a regular CTS w/V8, the previous version had the "regular" CTS w/V8 so I assumed that the 2nd gen would have it as well. Why would they drop the V8 "regular" CTS?

    -mike”

    All due respect, Mike \ Host, but the only production CTS with a V8 has always \ ever been the CTS-v.

    The 2008 CTS order guide shows 2 different V6s – both 3.6L.

    No V8.

    Are you thinking of the STS?

    - Ray
    Believing that it may be technically possibly to build a ‘regular’ CTS w/V8, but doubting Caddy will do so anytime soon . . .
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Interesting, I see that in 07 there were no V8 "regular" CTSs, I didn't realize they dropped it. I guess that they pretty much want you to go for the STS if you want a V8 w/AT although on the V series I guess they could offer the AT as an option but I'm a purist so I'd rather not see any of the "V" series with ATs.

    -mike
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,244
    Good to hear from you, Ray. I follow your journey with interest. I think you've had 4 cars while I've been accumulating 110K miles on my LS.

    ". . .when you leave Ford – what do you plan to buy?"

    Probably a BMW 3, possibly the wagon. I'd like a diesel, but I think I'll be in the market before the diesels trickle down to the 3 series. For now, the LS keeps right on providing what it always has, and I have a giant trip "way up North" planned for July. If it breaks during that trip, which I doubt, that'll set the timetable. Otherwise, sometime this fall or next spring I guess. We'll see.

    Enjoy that 'vette.
  • 150mphclub150mphclub Posts: 317
    Your mistake is in just adding up all the option packages. Some of the packages are not in addition to other options, they include other options and packages.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    All due respect, Mike \ Host, but the only production CTS with a V8 has always \ ever been the CTS-v.

    The 2008 CTS order guide shows 2 different V6s – both 3.6L.

    No V8.

    Are you thinking of the STS?


    Hmm weird, I guess all the V8 CTSs that I've seen at the track were V versions. Weird stuff, I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of when they switched from the 5.7 to the 6.0 engine thinking that the first version with the 5.7 was in the std. CTS and the 6.0 came when they brought the V version out. But it looks to not be true.

    -mike
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,507
    “ . . .but I'm a purist so I'd rather not see any of the "V" series with ATs.”

    Um.

    STS-v and XLR-v are offered ONLY with an automatic.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Correct, I'd like to see them go to MTs as well. The V series is meant to be the performance series and as such, should be offered in MT only. At the very least, they should be offered with MT as an option across the board.

    -mike
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