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Comments
Just read edmunds test of C350, I dont like the interior, especially the metal trim around the gauges.
But one price point that might be relevant is the 2008 STS V6 - Edmunds now shows base = $42,390.
Good luck!
- Ray
Are you thinking the Inoivce on the loaded CTS will be about $43,000? I qualify for GMS and what I understand is that is right around invoice, maybe even a % lower. I'm trying to guage if the CTS will be in my price range with the GMS pricing.
Len
MSRP: $50,000
Mark my words, I'll come back in couple weeks for the "I told you so" dance. :P
Having said that, I come at this [belief in a fairly large increase] from two points: (maybe three) 1.) the current price of a fully loaded CTS and the "difficulty" of adding 5 figures from one model year to the next; 2.) the content argument -- basically "justifying" a major uptick in price due to the HUGE content increase of the '08 CTS vs the '07; 2a.) the "upward creep" in price (at MSRP at least) of the STS.
We have, that is, a marketing/sales need to NOT to induce sticker shock somewhat offset by the substantial content creep, power boost and Cadillac's "desire to swim upstream."
On the other hand, if Cadillac cannot induce BMW 5 shoppers and Audi A6 shoppers and Infiniti M35 shoppers to consider the CTS, it will be pitted against the likes of the Entry level lux cars like the A4 and 3 and G (to name but a few) and will be seen as the most expensive of the bunch.
Drum roll please, a fully loaded top o' the line 300HP, AWD version will come in at a number beginning with a "4" -- with the second number probably (hopefully?) no larger than an "8" -- my take: $48,999 before any "lease subventing, discounts, conquest bucks or bottle deposits."
At $50K (for a CTS) the BMW 5 series (possibly even the A6 and M's, too -- possibly even something from Mercedes or Lexus -- possibly) "magnetism" will push/pull [many, if not most] customers away from Cadillac to the imports.
Signed: "Often wrong, but never uncertain, in Cincinnati."
Let me know how I can assist you.
I don't really know exactly what this means but I E-mailed back asking for some hard numbers and that I would be interested in ordering if the GMS price is a good one. I will get back to this forum when I receive a reply...
Len
I would be both pleased and somewhat pleasantly surprised to hear that such a version was priced equal to or less than $45K.
You're on. Make it Corona plus a bag of limes please. :P
A "fully loaded" (with navi) BMW 335i has a MSRP about $52K. Top of the line IS350 goes for around 48K and G35 for about $45K. Since the new CTS is more comparable to the 5-series/GS/E-class I don't think a fully loaded, top of the line version with a MSRP of $50K is unreasonable.
I think it will come in at 37.5K top of the line standard features only or base price, and with all the bells and whistles at about 44.5K. I want all but the sunroof, and I think I can get it OTD for 44K. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.
thebug...
At this time, the CTS is NOT a member of the LPS family. The STS is compared and discussed in the same forums, the same breath, so to speak.
The CTS is -- at least for the time being -- in the Entry LPS family.
The CTS (NOT the CTS-V) at $50K, will have, IMHO, few takers -- i.e., at that price, at THIS time, a $50K MSRP is unreasonable, perhaps very unreasonable.
Now, I do agree that the wheelbase of the CTS is "comparable" to the Audi A6, the BMW 5, and so on. But in this case, "size" (alone) does not matter (much.)
The CTS pre-press is very encouraging, but I would think it will take some time (years) for the CTS to be included in the LPS family.
Folks (like me) MAY consider the CTS for its extra wheelbase and interior volume -- also folks (like me) are unlikely to consider it a direct competitor with the rest of the LPS "usual suspects" (see the LPS forum right here on edmunds for a complete list of who is and who ain't.)
What was it they used to say, "beer has bubbles, champagne has bubbles; but, they are, generally speaking, NOT substitutes for each other."
I would probably imagine folks will look at a new A4, 3 series and/or "C" class Mercedes and wander over to the Cadillac showroom for a look see at the new CTS.
I remain, "completely certain and often mistaken."
:surprise:
Look - the car is a 5 series/E/ES/etc competitor. If Hyundai made a full size luxury sedan for $35K, you'd have no problem I bet comparing it with a 5 series. And singing its praises as a low cost alternative.
Yet, because it's GM, well... it's downgraded to a ELPS and then whined about endlessly that it's too big, heavy, expensive...
Six months and the 45K+ nonsense is still going round and round on these boards.
I tend to look at the car optioned, since base prices can be made very attractive by virtue of content.
Take the A4, 3 series, C series, G and so on and load em up -- then ditto the CTS.
How is it that over on the LPS board, the only Cadillac offered up "in class" is the STS against the 5?
I am encouraged that Cadillac will only be helped by the introduction of the new CTS -- it is just not (yet) a member of the LPS league.
That is not bashing, that's the circumstances tacitly (at least) agreed to by edmunds, C&D, R&T and a whole host of others. The CTS is one step down, for the time being.
The STS folks are unlikely to agree that the CTS competes with it or the 5 or the GS or the . . . .
The STS, at this point, is unlikely to go up against the bigger, flagships from Audi, BMW, Lexus or Mercedes.
Cadillac seems to have built an alternative for those of us who might shop the 3 series, not the 5, despite the wheelbase similarities.
GM? Hmm, I see no reason to automatically put down the Cadillac becuase it is from GM. In some aspects, quite the contrary. The CTS will be mid forties -- if it is, as you say, they will sell like hot cakes. Make mine 300HP, premium paint, sport and all do-dads on the option sheet; at that price, hell, make it two.
Len
My point is that base price is virtually useless in determining the typical price.
The apples to apples comparison pretty much eliminates the content for $ discussion and allows us to make a level playing field eval.
If the fully loaded CTS compares "favorably" to the fully loaded 3 or G or A4, or whatever Entry Level LPS car it is up against, it ought to be a winner.
What is actually acquired, like the phrase "your mileage may vary" is not unimportant, but Cadillac needs to come in at a price that is seen to represent "high value," not just high content or high anything else you might care to look at.
Folks seem to be quite willing to pay $50K for a BMW 3 series -- they have the shortest shelf life according to our local Bimmer dealer. This is not meant to dispute the claim that the 328 outsells the 335, etc. The A6 3.2 outsells the more expensive A6 4.2 by a wide margin, too.
The 300HP AWD CTS will probably NOT be the high volume model -- but we do need to know how it stacks up against the high zoot 335 and the other ELPS flavors.
At this point, having tested both the '07 Gx and 335x cars, the one to beat would certainly seem to be the G35x. The CTS if it is $5K - $9K more will NOT seem to represent high value, despite the CTS's 5 series wheelbase similarities.
The G35x also blows the Mercedes C class AWD models away -- if performance and content trump the three pointed star on the hood.
Cadillac's CTS for 2008 is, for me, the MOST interesting and possibly desirable car to come out in the last couple of years (at its alleged content and price point.) If the balance of price and content does not come to be, it will have an uphill battle.
The cars on the market from all parts of the globe continue to improve apace -- hopefully this spanky new CTS will not be state of the art circa 2005, unless it is thus at a nice price break.
I am all over the place with the new ELPS cars, especially American models, since they seem to have about the same content as my 2005 Audi A6 3.2 (which is nearly fully optioned -- and was MSRP of $53,286.) A 2008 CTS AWD with the 300HP motor at a monthly lease price less than $650 (36 months and 15K miles/year) would be tempting, though, quite tempting. :confuse:
Fun and confusing at the same time? Yep.
Headroom with sunroof 39.1 inches (fr)/37.2 inches (rear)
Hip room 55.1 inches (fr)/53.7 inches (rear)
Legroom 43.9 inches (fr)/34.7 inches (rear)
Shoulder room 55.6 inches (fr)/55.2 inches (rear)
The 07 CTS:
Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear
As you can see, interior dimensions are comparable for these two cars. The G will definitely be considered alongside the CTS and therefore must be priced competitively with that car. Another competitor will be the TL - a full-featured car that tops out at around $37k and is dimensionally similar to the G and CTS (I checked to be sure).
For those interested, the 3-series' dimension are:
Headroom (Front)38.5 (Rear)37.5
Legroom (Front)41.5 (Rear)34.6
Shoulder Room (Front)55.4 (Rear)55.1
Smaller, but not by much...
My point is that the CTS MUST be priced to compete with these cars, because it will invariably be considered alongside them in terms of content, performance & price.
Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.
Not too many moons ago folks here on Edmunds said "pricing the STS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible."
Now, however, therefore, notwithstanding: although the STS's MSRP has exited into the vacuum of space, the subvented, discounted and "OTD" costs have been somehow addressed via generous programs, discounts and lease subventing that is, to this day, going on a full throttle.
Perhaps a $47K CTS will be "priced" OTD more -- shall we say -- down to earth?
One can hope.
Cadillac, however, does want to get to the premium prices with all deliberate speed. I think Cadillac would love the CTS to be considered by the majority of folks as a 5 series (true LPS) alternative.
This one car alone will not likely make this transformation -- but it IS a good start. :surprise:
http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07naias/brands/cadillac/07_NAIAS_Cadillac_CTS_Design.htm
[ 2008 ] Headroom (in / mm):
Front: 38.8
Rear: 37.2 = + 0.3
38.8 / 986
37.2 / 944
Legroom (in / mm):
Front: 42.4
Rear: 35.9 = + 0.3
42.4 / 1078
35.9 / 913
Shoulder room (in / mm):
Front: 56.7
Rear: 57.4 = 1.02 less !?!?!?
56.7 / 1441
57.4 / 1390
Hip room (in / mm):
Front: 55.1 = + 1.8
Rear: 54.1 = + 0.3
55.1 / 1400
54.1 / 1375
EPA passenger volume
(cu ft / L):
98 / 2775
http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07naias/brands/cadillac/07_NAIAS_Cadillac_CTS Specs_rev121506.htm
“The 07 CTS:
Head Room 38.9 in. Fr/36.9 in. Rear
Hip Room 53.4 in. Fr/53.8 in. Rear
Leg Room 42.4 in. Fr/36.2 in. Rear
Shoulder Room 56.6 in. Fr/56.2 in. Rear”
When I was comparing the Caddy STS to the M45 a while back, I found even the ( somewhat larger ) STS rear seat to be somewhat less spacious that I’d expected, particularly in leg room – and clearly not as large as the M45.
2008 STS:
“Head room, front 38.70 (983)
Head room, rear 37.90 (963)
Shoulder room, front 58.60 (1488)
Shoulder room, rear 57.40 (1458)
Hip room, front 54.60 (1387)
Hip room, rear 55.60 (1412)
Leg room, front 42.60 (1082)
Leg room, rear 38.30 (973)”
I expect that the CTS will be arriving at dealers shortly after the 2008 STS – and once they are both available, I plan to test drive the V6 versions of each, back-to-back. ( I have driven the V8 STS on several occasions. ) The comparison of pricing & performance will prove interesting, I think. ( It looks right now like an STS V6, equipped as I’d probably buy w/1SC & PDQ MSRP = approx. $53.2K and invoice is $48.7K. )
[[ Edit: I'd like to add PCZ - at $1,600 MSRP. ]]
With the V6 in the STS now over 300 HP, adding the 6 speed automatic and weighing less than the STS V8s I have driven ( by 150 pounds or so – largely offsetting the NorthStar’s HP & TQ advantage, I’d think) this sounds worth looking at – and comparing to the top line V6 CTS.
We shall see.
- Ray
Interested . . .
“ . . .272 lb.-ft. (369 Nm) of torque at 5200 rpm.”
- and -
“The result is linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (maximum horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response and driveability.”
Has anyone seen a published Torque Curve for this motor?
5,200 RPM is a very high Torque peak – and I am wondering just how much credence to assign to the latter quote . . .
300+ HP from 3.6L is impressive, but I also need my Torque down low in the RPM range.
Thanks,
- Ray
Torque addicted . . .
Pricing the CTS at the levels some here have suggested is simply not possible.” – Ortega
And yet . . .
GM \ Caddy appears to be OK with the fact that STS and CTS sales continue to be ( way ) off – measured against last year. The CTS is off 38.7% - and the STS is off 46.8%. Large numbers, to me.
And 2006 was NOT a ** stellar ** year for the STS, certainly – or for the CTS. The STS was off 31% in June 2006 vs June 2005. And last June sales for the CTS were off over 14% compared with 2005 June sales.
Yet certainly in the case of the STS, the “Premium Pricing” ( IMHO ) that Caddy placed initially on the STS with the 2005 Model Year has been steadfastly maintained - in the face of what I see as rather dismal sales volume.
So, in light of this apparent pricing philosophy – I see the possibility of the ‘new’ 2008 CTS being priced higher than some expect. I think that it therefore IS possible we’ll see surprisingly high MSRPs. I do hope I am wrong.
Again: We’ll see.
The initial reports from GM were that the 2008 STSs would hit dealers in June. And it appeared that 2008 CTSs would follow not long after. Mine has not seen either one, as of this PM. ( 2008 SRXs, but no STSs and no CTSs. )
- Ray
Waiting to see & drive & read sticker prices on production examples . . .
I have no defense for the STS.
Cadillac has consistently said the base 08 will start in the low 30's. Given that the base model has leatherette, I can see it coming in at the 33-34 range base and topping out at in the 47-49 range.
Cadillac said late June for the STS and "fall" for the CTS. STS production started 6/11 according to reports, so you should see those very soon. CTS production starts either the 19th or 23rd of July, so they should be out by mid to late August.
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/graytabcontroller.jsp?graytabtype=1&rpoid=36105&vehicleid=4824®ionID=1§ion=oi_def
One way to do this, of course, is to raise the price. The fact, hopefully, that a $47K CTS may be had for a low lease price is just the strategy apparently used by BMW and at least ONCE, in my case, Audi.
The phrase, that was then, this is now is not lost on me, but as I have related previously, we have two 2005 German cars, both with 36 month, 45K mile leases with almost no money out of pocket to get going. Her $47K Bimmer was $581/mo and my $53K Audi was $640/mo. In my case, I didn't even have a sec dep. We both have full maintenance too.
I have priced these American cars [repeatedly] with a desire to lease them. Apples to apples, the American cars (and many of the Japanese models) at that price per month are, relatively speaking, "strippies."
I am NOT a fan of outsourcing, but when an American "boy" like me spends $X/mo, and I can get an "entry level" STS or CTS or a fully loaded Infiniti, BMW or Audi, I cave and outsource my transportation overseas.
More's the pity.
Damn legacy costs. :mad:
- Ray
At Lunch, I looked a little further back - at a couple of months in 2005 vs 2004 for the CTS:
Sept 2005 vs 2004
CTS 3,847 4,202 -8.4%
Aug 2005 vs 2004
CTS 3,610 4,365 -20.5%
“I have no defense for the STS.”
Me neither . . .
- Ray
NOT a sales or marketing guru . . .
Craving to get back with a CTS?
Mechanical section-(MX0) Transmission, 6-speed automatic, changed availability for 1SB PEG from "A" with a footnote #1 to "S" with a new footnote #2. New footnote #2 reads "Must specify a transmission. Base MSRP includes (MX0) 6-speed automatic transmission.".
And you can only get the 6 speed manual for the DI when ordered with the Summer tire performance package.
- Ray
Obviously did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn of any sort last night......
Len
A 2008 CTS for myself would be nice, but I have to find budget for it (not easy) and it must fit my elongated body (no guarentees).