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Lexus LS 600h/600h L

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
  • hendjazhendjaz Posts: 155
    I don't think so. Read further and you will see this gentleman posts the same thing each time and is the lone ranger in terms of his experience, which is his experience and not that of others that have owned the 460L for a while now.

    I actually traded my 450h for the 460L and would not go back even though there is nothing bad to say about the 450h. The 460L is a considerable leap forward beyond the 450h imho. Nearing 6 months now and the 460L is trouble free, as expected.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    That doesn't in the least bit sway me. I know a half dozen folks that now have the 460 (all of whom came out of 430 leases) and they all say it's better than ever - by far. I'll combine that with my experience behind the wheel (seats were also excellent) anyday. Also when someone posts the same thing 100 times I dismiss it altogether. His post would have been much more effective if he posted it where it matters once or twice instead of continuously. If anything I'm going the other way and seriously giving the LS600HL second thoughts right now.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
    For myself I would take the LS over the GS any day. Just seemed strange seeing someone unhappy with an LS460. Like you say not many are.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    If you have the means, and want it all, potentially you could have:

    1. Virtually all LS460L optional equipment now becomes STD.

    2. A noticably Faster vehicle, that can break 5 seconds. "The New Fast"!

    3. A quieter vehicle than even the LS460, with less reliance on internal combustion.

    4. Exclusive features only available on the 600h.

    5. A better value than any comparable German, $10-30k less.

    6. The most efficient vehicle in the class, by as much as 50%. Much lower cost of ownership than any other $100k vehicle.

    7. Exclusivity. Simply the best Lexus you can buy. Period. You are no longer one of 30k others. :surprise:

    8. Virtually zero emissions, even better for the environment than your average family sedan, with similar economy.

    Just off the top of my head, the vehicle will be best in class in many respects. And not much of a price penalty vs. a loaded LS460L. A $10-15 difference.

    It's a much smarter purchase than a S600 over an S550, for example. The S600 just adds power, at the expense of efficiency. :(

    If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up. It is so choice! ;)

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    Your reasons are "music to my ears" Doc! I totally agree.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    As Len has stated, the person that was degrading the LS460 was getting very annoying by repeating the same thing over and over again. The great majority of the owners have been extremely pleased with the LS460 and LS460L.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    My dealer just told me that each Lexus dealership will be getting 2 LS600HL's with the executive package in June or July. Evidently, that had already been decided along time ago. Don't ask me why Lexus made this type of decision. I imagine the dealer will have at least one of these as a demo for a while since I doubt, folks will be rushing to get it with this package but who knows.

    The good news for me is that I will likely be getting my premium package with advanced pre-collision vehicle with the color combo smoky granite mica and black interior around August or September. The other day the dealer was concerned that it may be the end of the year before it is shipped. Yes this is at least 4 months down the road, but I am told that at least I will be getting one since I am first on the list.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Edmunds just tested a LS600h and got no better acceleration than a LS460L.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    They've become far more consistent and reasonable than C&D, and others, in their reviews. :)

    I forgot about the AWD, which really should be optional on at least the 460, if not both.

    That's costing you around 300 lbs. right thur, plus at least 2 MPG! :sick:

    880+ lbs. is a load, and the hybrid's advantages are effectively cancelled out by this cross to bear.

    Expect around 20-21 MPG, which is still pretty good, but no better than a 460. :surprise: It may get 5 MPG more, but will lose at least a second to 60.

    As was mentioned, these level cars are not about being a "Smart Buy", it's about status, within the marque, and within cardom.

    At least the value of the Touring Pkg. brakes was realized, dramatically slowing a significantly heavier vehicle. Hopefully, this will become standard by the mid-gen refresh in 2010. :blush:

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    Frankly, I am somewhat disappointed and surprised if this review is accurate. Could it be that some of the specs are disappointing because this is a pre-production model? For example, we all know how deceiving the C & D review was in the breaking distance and acceleration when they were testing a pre-production model of the LS460L. Be that as it may, I do now have some concern that I am making the right decision because of this review. Someone please help alleviate my concern by telling me that this review is not accurate.

    Wasn't it AutoWeek that had a much more favorable review of the LS600HL a few weeks ago? BTW, the implication by Edmunds that only the filthy rich will be attracted to this car is pure gunk. I don't consider myself filthy rich by any means.
  • This just a review on a pre-production car. At least the interior is not the LS600hL one with leather wrapped dash, no driver monitor etc. I think IL too focused on picking things. And I don't believe Lexus is that stupid to make LS600hL run slower than LS460.

    Read the Audi A8 L W12 review on the same page may let you feel better. :) IL said the Audi W12 is well worth the money, but the LS600hL isn't? :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
    I think maybe a better term would be, a multi millionaire would be the demographic for the LS600HL. The connotation of filthy rich is that it is bad to have money. I say it is bad to NOT have money. It is better to keep excess cash in circulation buying expensive items than hoarding it for your children to squander.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Please take that review in proper context.

    It was 2 years before the LS460 came out, which matches it's acceleration with a V8 for potentially half the price, with almost as much luxury.

    The Audi got 19 MPG (the 600h should beat that), took longer to stop, and was more expensive.

    A $90k Lexus LS460L is a much "better buy" than either, it would seem.

    Many customers won't need the AWD, and given the weight gain, the hybrid drive is nullified, as is the power increase.

    As impressed as IL was with the LS460L, they seem confounded by the 600h. I can't say i blame them. As good as the 600h is, it seems to fall short of greatness. :cry:

    DrFill
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I was shocked when I read it it. The good news for the moment is that the review and specs as they appeared yesterday curiously disappeared. I wonder what happened.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    For $100K+, the hybrid LS, is a bit too heavy. it's gained almost 1,000 lbs!!! For the $30K premium over a stock LS460L, Lexus should have taken some weight saving measures on this behemoth, like skin most of the exterior in light weight aluminum. A 1,000lb. gain in weight basically offsets the addition of the hybrid drive! Which renders the Ls600h basically pointless!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
    Not that impressed were they?

    If you like the Lexus LS 460 L you'll like the Lexus LS 600h L. If you love the Lexus LS 460 L you'll love the Lexus LS 600h L. And it really is that simple.

    But if you're truly concerned with man's impact on the environment, you'll buy a Honda Fit. Get the Sport model with the optional leather.

    I know, ain't gonna happen. You're rich beyond belief and wouldn't be caught dead in a subcompact. But you also have five 10,000-square-foot homes that you're constantly heating and air-conditioning, plus a Gulfstream G550 so you can avoid the ticket counter, and you're feeling a little guilty about it.

    Don't. Leave the guilt for the middle class.

    Instead, do what Al Gore does, buy some of those Carbon Credits and fire up the jet for another ski weekend. Aspen is lovely this time of year. Oh, and buy yourself a Mercedes S600. Its 5.5-liter V12 cranks out 510 hp and a colossal 612 lb-ft of torque, enough to blow the Lexus LS 600h L into the weeds. It even qualifies for a ULEV II emissions rating. That's ULEV as in Ultra Low Emission Vehicle. In other words you can kiss the tailpipe for a week without any side effects, including guilt.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I'll never take any review of a pre-production car seriously for the rest of my life. I'll also bet a lot of money that Audi's V12 gets between 12-15 mpg in the real world.

    "Don't. Leave the guilt for the middle class."

    "Instead, do what Al Gore does, buy some of those Carbon Credits and fire up the jet for another ski weekend. Aspen is lovely this time of year. Oh, and buy yourself a Mercedes S600. Its 5.5-liter V12 cranks out 510 hp and a colossal 612 lb-ft of torque, enough to blow the Lexus LS 600h L into the weeds. It even qualifies for a ULEV II emissions rating. That's ULEV as in Ultra Low Emission Vehicle. In other words you can kiss the tailpipe for a week without any side effects, including guilt.

    Our crusader against global warming also has a house that cosumes 5-10X the energy of an upper middle class 4500 foot house. The guy has always struck me as one that practices the opposite of what he preaches. Worse yet is my scientific knowledge of weather can see right thru the garbage he tries to get headlines with.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    Len,

    I am very much interested to get your opinion on this less than complimentary review by Edmunds. I'll tell you what. I have gone from near ecstasy to almost depression in just 24 hours after reading this review.

    There are a few things that really bother me. Even though, if a person is going to spend that much money on a car, gas mileage is not really a concern, it is a concern for me. It is the principal of the thing that affects me psychologically. It does defeat the idea of a hybrid. Come on! Getting 20 mpg on the highway stinks. I really expected an average (city and highway) gas mileage of at least 25-26. And even though it does not make much difference to me (I would not be racing with the car), why is it testing so slow from 0 to 60? I also see Edmunds concern about the Nickel hydride (?) battery disposal problem down the road. Maybe Lexus should have held off production until the Lithium Ion battery was ready.

    I obviously love all the high tech features of the car and of course I like the fact that it is AWD, but I am now having second thoughts about getting this car. I cannot believe how my mood has changed on this in less than a day after reading the Edmunds review. I have placed quite a lot of trust in Edmunds over the years. My only hope is that all these findings are bogus because it is a pre-production model. What do you think? If these results stand, I am now leaning toward cancelling my order.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I'd never let one review affect me - particularly since this is a pre-production car. I'd see what other reviews say of the real production car. The LS460L tested by C&D was way off in weight, which then skewed virtually every test they made, and I have feeling so is the weight of the car Edmunds tested.
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    Yes, that is good advice and you re-affirmed my thinking that I should wait until I see other reviews of a production model. If this review came from C & D, I would not be as concerned, but it really hit me coming from Edmunds. Do you have any idea of when we can expect some other reviews? I imagine there will be several reviews in the next few weeks, but an actual production model review might take a little longer.

    BTW, I did not realize you had already posted your opinion on the Edmunds review. I was working and occasionally typing my post and did know you already gave an answer.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    AWD, and enough Duracell to power a city block, they're probably right about the tonnage. And since the power gain was only 57HP, can't say I'm surprised by it's performance.

    Spending a week with it would help a lot, in a review.

    Kinda falls into the Honda Accord Hybrid catergory. :sick:

    Maybe if they targeted 30MPG, with 400HP, it would be an easier sell?

    DrFill
  • Does the hybrid Lexus have a plusher interior? At least the BMW, Audi, and Benz have full leather.

    I recently bought a Camry Hybrid and leave my Audi(S8) for the weekends. I wouldn't buy a hybrid that didn't offer excellent mileage. I would rather see a LS hybrid with 30% better mileage--that I would consider.
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    IMHO, it's about perspectives and expectations. Lexus marketting dropped the proverbial ball on this one. 21mpg is actually not that bad at all for such a heavy car. Over 12k miles in a year, the difference between 21mpg vs. 25mpg is 571 gallons vs. 480 gallons, or rougly 90 gallon difference. A typical AWD V12 like the Audi A8 would have returned 12mpg in real life driving (those cars see a lot of city driving), the same 12k miles would have required 1000 gallons! That would be over 400 gallon difference! Lexus marketting needs to get a handle on this one. It's about time Americans use the gal/100miles number instead of the mpg number that we have. The gas an LS600HL saves over a comparable AWD V12 HELC in a year is far more than a Prius saves over a Corolla. The difference between 50mpg vs. 35mpg is only 100 gallons in 12k miles.

    Lithium Ion battery has a shelf-life problem. None of my cell phone, computer or camera lithium batteries have ever lasted more than a couple years, even with minimal usage. Lithium batteries start expiring the day they are produced. The charge capacity of LI batteries decrease as a function of time and ambient temperature. The half life is only a year or less at room temperature.

    Hope that helps :-) Think of the extra weight as safety device . . . you know, the old joke about Rolls-Royce owner's theory about car crashes: it's better if the other bloke's car bounces off and leaves me unscathed :-)
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    Very good points. I still think you need to see real curb weight. Nothing interferes with acceleratrion or MPG more than curb weight. If that's overdone on the preproduction car than both mileage and 0-60 speed are underdone.

    Cyclone - I'd get the curb weight of the car from your sales guy and see how it compares to the weight in the Ednunds car. Regardless if the car goes 0-60 in the same timespan as the LS460L than they should have built a V12 hybrid or just a V12. For the extra money the performance has to be significantly more than the base car. What I'd be expecting to buy in that car is a faster 0-60 time, 450 horses and 23-25mpg. If they make good on that tham the hybrid is an awesome car.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,056
    Why not make it an LS450hL? Use the V6 Hybrid power train which is slightly lighter. It would be adequate acceleration and could offer closer to 30 MPG on the highway. If you can afford the LS600h you can also afford a Ferrari. When you need to show some speed pull the Ferrari out of the garage. I think that Lexus missed a good chance to make a fine luxury sedan that is truly eco friendly. Just another opinion.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    1. Decision to make all LS hybrids AWD, adds weight, hurts maximum performance.

    2. The smaller engine would be moving a bigger vehicle, another weight nullifying the Hybrid. It moves the lighter GS in 5.5, and won't move that quickly with another 600-1000 lbs.

    3. Hybrids get metter MPG in the city, not on the highway, as the gas engine shuts off when stopped, and electric power is used to get the vehicle moving again.

    It seems, based on this one review, that the 600h wanted to do two things, and did neither well. It didn't IMPROVE economy over the 460, which is necessary. V12 economy is not a real point of reference. And it isn't any faster, with all the weight penalties. :sick:

    Maybe they said the bigger gas engine will help with speed, and the hybrid will help with economy.

    It just doesn't sell against it's own 460, which can produce similar economy and thrust. :confuse:

    DrFill
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,287
    I'd get the curb weight of the car from your sales guy and see how it compares to the weight in the Ednunds car. Regardless if the car goes 0-60 in the same timespan as the LS460L than they should have built a V12 hybrid or just a V12. For the extra money the performance has to be significantly more than the base car. What I'd be expecting to buy in that car is a faster 0-60 time, 450 horses and 23-25mpg. If they make good on that tham the hybrid is an awesome car.

    I agree with you on all points lj. However, I now have my doubts that at least the gas mileage will be much improved. In fact, on the Edmunds review, the specs show an actual EPA gas mileage of 22 in town and 20 on the highway. Edmunds got less than this when they tested it (18.2). In my opinion, that is rather deflating (being a hybrid). The 0 to 60 time may get faster if indeed the curb weight is lighter than they claim. The bottom line for me however is that I am quite disappointed at this time. I will wait and see what other reviews have to say.
  • twq83twq83 Posts: 19
    Just chiming in with my $0.02 .......... cyclone4, if you ask me Mr. Hoffman has a bone to pick with any V-8 Hybrid ........ ( his last article on the Accord V-6 Hybrid reads like a copy of the Lexus opinion. But it is just that ..."HIS" opinion!!! We don't know how the vehicle was outfitted ..... according to the video it has the Executive Class Seating Package ( the 11.7 cf Trunk gives it away ) and that is the reason for the increase in weight. Even so I have driven Hybrids for the last 7 years ( 2000 Prius, 2005 Prius, 2007 Camry Hybrid, Rx 400h, GS 450h, and can't wait to get my hands on a LS 600hL to try out!!!) and in every case I have been able to exceed the EPA mileage estimates on a regular basis ( Best trip= Virginia to Vermont and back 71.4 mpg ...... 77% Highway driving ). I would not expect Edmunds to drive like me but I'm sure they put the "performance exercise" to the test there way. Remember Edmunds screaming about legal suits to prevent Toyota from posting 60/51 on the Prius since they couldn't arrive at that. How many stories have you heard since then of people not only obtaining it, but, surpassing it!!!! Let the "officials" do all the testing and suppositions!!! Then get in it yourself and see what you think. C&D, Motor Trend, Hybrid.com, Consumer Reports, all are going to have there opinions......... And that just what they are. Get in it and drive it yourself ...... then make your decission. If you can't get 25/30MPG Average ....... I'll come to you and show you how to do it.

    Thanks for letting me rant ;)

    Tom Quinn
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