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Comments
Please forgive me for asking the obvious but if you have no interest in Monteros then why are you reading the "Mitsubishi Montero" topics? Just curious.
tidester, host
Taxes
Having a Toyota owner tell you how much superior their truck is over yours
Why dont we just agree that you dont like the Montero, you think it is weak, not capable, not of value, etc, etc, etc
I am putting you in for Toyota's Salesperson of the year for the relentless pursuit of selling Toyotas fine line of products. I hope you win a new LC.
"The G500 has four-wheel-traction control like the others for highway use, and a lockable center differential, but goes two steps further with a locking differential front and rear for trail use (traction control is no substitute for locking diffs). Low-range is dash-switched at any speed below 15 mph, and the ratio of 2.16:1 compares to others 2.5:1 because of the overdrive high-range (0.87:1).
Final Score
Buyers in this market tend to be demanding, and all these vehicles should meet realistic expectations in every aspect of ownership. The new Range Rover is a high-tech piece worthy of Windows masters, delightful on the road, and sold in low volumes. The LX 470 remains faithful to those qualities Lexus buyers prefer: conservative, reliable, capable, luxurious, and utterly quiet. The Navigator gets our vote for most improved, and the people responsible should get a gold star. It's a versatile, roomy, comfortable bus with great road manners and a decent buy at $10/pound. And the exclusive G500 goes well, laughs at rocky roads, yet has all the features anticipated by the most demanding technophiles. A hard look at your own needs and requirements will ultimately make the choice, but for our money, the new Range Rover sets the pace."
Heres the link, dont take my word for it.
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/suv/112_0211_suoty_vol/
I dont really care as that is what Acura NSX's are for but you seemed to believe those numbers were important in SUV and quoted higher values.
Performance DATA
0-60 mph, sec Quarter mile, sec @ mph Braking, 60-0 mph, ft 200-ft skidpad, g 600-ft slalom, mph
Ford Expedition 10.3 17.2 @ 81.1 144 0.70 55.7
Honda Element 10.8 17.6 @ 78.8 139 0.75 59.4
Honda Pilot 8.2 16.1 @ 85.8 137 0.72 57.8
Hummer H2 10.2 17.3 @ 80.0 151 0.64 52.2
Isuzu Ascender 9.0 16.5 @ 84.6 143 0.67 55.7
Kia Sorento 10.1 17.3 @ 79.3 152* 0.70 58.9
Lexus GX 470 8.3 16.2 @ 84.4 134 0.66 58.8
Lincoln Aviator 8.1 16.0 @ 88.9 139 0.71 59.2
Lincoln Navigator 10.0 17.1 @ 82.7 139 0.71 59.4
Mitsubishi Outlander 12.3 18.5 @ 73.0 142* 0.79 61.7
Subaru Baja 9.6 17.0 @ 80.7 133 0.75 59.9
Subaru Forester 8.6 16.2 @ 84.4 135 0.69 59.3
Toyota 4Runner 7.8 15.9 @ 85.6 135 0.68 57.1
Volvo XC90 T6 8.9 16.4 @ 86.7 128 0.74 60.2
* Not equipped with optional ABS
You are right that that 03 Montero has a lower ground clearence but my 01 was at 9-9.5 before springs and now 11 inches after with better handling. Yes, better spring rates and shocks improve handling even with the extra lift and No there is not going to be significant increase in wear.
It seems that the new 4 runner also dropped considerably in ground clearence, down to 9.1 inches from past 4 runners as high as 11 inches and that is with 17 inch tires. Put those on the 03 Montero and you would be even in clearence.
I still like the 5 speed over the 4 runners 4 speed tranny, the larger interior spaces, 300lb greater load carring capacity, 7 passenger vs 5 in the toyota, excellent sitting position and view out of the massive windows, better stereo, but I grant you none of this may be important in your buying decision.
Drew
Actually, I was responding to your post (2170). Obviously, you DO have an interest in Montero despite your proclamation to the contrary.
I think we've sated our respective curiosities and we can all safely return to the regularly scheduled topic, which, of course, is the Mitshubishi Montero! :-)
tidester, host
All the lower control arms closer to the ground are boxed. It is not up-sidedown u-shape stamped steel.
I am amazed that you picked the $50 skid plate and overlook the rest of the vehicle. The 4Runner did not have the unibody, 5 speeds, the independent suspension, the foldown seats... Those things cost way, way more than $50 skid plates. Mitsubishi put a lot of components into the Montero. And it is not cheap stub, all are quality piece that you can tell. Toyota mean while gives you a body on frame with a solid axel (ok and a skid plate) and you are jumping for joy? Are you in South California, I would be happy to meet with you so you can convince me that the 4Runner is a better engineering piece. I doubt it, because I was about to buy the 4Runner before the Mitsubishi came out.
[Who is "everyone"?? You mean, the Mitsu salesman?? Too funny!]
No, they are my co-worker, some of them are 4Runner owner.
How is the Montero suspension "more substantial" than 4Runner (3rd gen)??? Tell me the details please. Last time i checked a solid axle is universally regarded as stronger than independent. In fact, i dare you to name ONE weakness of the 4Runner's suspension component. Just one.
More substaintial means bigger. The 4Runner is based on a compact truck platform, so everything is "small" accordingly. Does not mean bad, just smaller and cheaper to make. Weakness of the suspension? it is the solid axel, bouncing and pushing around. Very rough ride! Even dangerous in snow or even rain if not in all wheel drive mode.
[ONLY the front nose and hood are shared with the Toyota Tacoma...everything else is unique to the 4Runner. 4Runners have FULLY-boxed frame and fully-boxed crossmembers (yes, even the crossmembers!); Tacoma does not have this. Our front and rear suspension are very different. We do share engines. Sorry, YOU need to read up on the 4Runner before talking. Thanks.]
LOL, ok so it is shared with the Tacoma, and I am very impress with the boxed cross member. The boxed frame is a very advance feature of the 4Runner.
Bottom line, explain to me one thing: why is your departure angle and approach angle sooooo different??? Pretty bad when the Ford Explorer has as much ground clearance as you. WITHOUT mods, my 4Runner is OVER an inch higher in ground clearance!
Did you jacked up your 4Runner or hack-sawed the axel pumkin?
[Why do you think the 4Runner cost more than Montero?? Quality costs money, Viet]
4Runner costs more because people will buy it based on the name alone. As for the quality of the Montero, it is a quality vehicle just like the Toyota.
I appreciate good engineering very much and Over-all the Montero is a vehicle that has better engineering even just from the stanpoint of configuration and drive train. The 3rd generation 4Runner is a good truck, but compare to the Montero it is more expensive while offers less equipment and with dated technology.
Post 2176: Ok, so what?? Motortrend picked Acura MDX the year before?? Does that mean it is better than everything else?? So, are you saying the new Volvo is better than Range Rover?? Interestingly, it should be better than Montero, too?? Again, what is your point??
Post 2177: Where's the Montero on those numbers?? I assumed these numbers are from ONE source, right?? Where's the Montero?? Please do NOT compare different sources! Different driving conditions will give different results. Car & Driver tested the LX back in 2000 and i think it got 0.70-0.72g. Again, again, what is your point?? Where's the Montero??
Post 2178: According to Mitsubishi website, the '03 Montero has a 39 degree approach angle, NOT 42 degrees. Ground clearance is 8.6". Sorry.
Unfortunately, for you to maintain the same handling AFTER a lift, your springs and shocks must be STIFF. This means that your wheel travel will be LESS, which means you have compromised your off-roading!
Brill, you better check again. LIFTING will increease your chance of breaking your CV joint!! Your CV angle is NOT at optimal angle (as specified my Mitsu engineers). Overtime, you will wear it out. In addition, if you off-road on rocks and at extreme steering, you can tear your CV boots. Seriously, i am not trying to mess with you. I love OME lift, but i am scared of this happening on my 4Runner (due to IFS).
17" wheels are the same size as before. 265/70/16 is EQUAL to 265/65/17. Therefore, there is no increase in height with 17" tires. Therefore, your Montero with these tires will NOT be higher.
WE're talking about CAPABILITY, not interior space, right??? Like i said earlier, your Montero is a lot bigger, but cost LESS. BTW, your Infiniti stereo on '01 models was not impressive when i heard it. My 4runner stereo is not bad at all...don't go by the name alone, it means nothing.
YOUR departure angle is 18 degrees (19 degrees in '01)!!!! That is FAR inferior to my 4Runner. FAR.
Post 2179: Ok, Edmunds consumer ratings???!!
Post 2182: Tidester...nevermind. Curiousity does not equal understanding apparently.
Post 2183: Please, if you do not know anything about off-roading capability, then do not comment!
UNIBODY is NOT something to be proud of when looking at an off-roader! DESPITE being a unibody, crash testing results are no better than my "old" 4runner! BTW, unibodies are SUPPOSED to be better in crash testing.
SOLID AXLE is the key to off-roading. Wheel travel in a solid axle is ALWAYS superior to any independent suspension. Solid axle is STRONGER. Less components hanging down...thus, less things to break.
You know those things you like so much in your Montero CAN ALSO BE FOUND IN A MINIVAN! Maybe you should get a Dodge Caravan as your next car.
Did you know that my 4Runner's IFS (front suspension) and rear axle are the SAME as those found on the Toyota Tundra AND Sequoia?????? Think about that for a moment. Don't believe me?? Go to your local Toyota dealership and have a look for yourself. I insist! It is called, over-engineering! My suspension components are no smaller than an AMERICAN 1/2 ton truck. Again, i insist you take a look.
Explain to me why my rear axle is dangerous in snow???
My 4runner (2002) has 11" of ground clearance...STOCK. Enough said.
Are you saying consumers are that stupid?? Spend their hard-earned $$$ just for name?? For a SUV that is smaller??? Ok...i guess you're the only smart consumer out there. Remmeber, this is TOYOTA not Lexus...so name is not the reason people spend $$$ on a Toyota. Sorry.
Dated technology?? 4Runners have had BRAKE ASSIST and stability control since 2001. Montero only started with stability control in 2003. No brake assist anywhere on the Montero.
Viet, a MINIVAN has those features you love so much. Again, the Dodge Caravan is a good choice!
Thanks.
Of course! Consumers do this ALL the time! What's your profession? From your screen name here, I'm guessing medicine.
I'm in marketing. Trust me.. consumers purchase "name" on a regular basis. I spend a great deal of my time working on Brand Recognition issues. Now... having said that it's only fair to point out that the "name" is quite often very well earned by the manufacturer.
Toyota earned it's name without a doubt as did Honda. Honda's level of loyalty is so strong in fact that I think it has caused them to be lazy in the styling department. I know several people who will ONLY buy Honda's. Mitus on the other hand has to be more cutting edge in the stylying department to attract more interest. I could write pages about that subject but suffice it to say.. YES consumers do make purchasing decisions based on Name Recognition.
Drew
However, it's suspension components are top quality...it's shocks are high quality. It's engine is extremely smooth and rev-free, YET has decent torque at low RPMs. Interior quality is top-notch. Soft surfaces everywhere you touch. Dang, even the cupholders are fancy.
Most important of all, BMW and Mercedes safety features are unbeatable. Over and over again, BMW & Merc are the safest cars around.
So, is it overpriced?? Is it only a name?? No. Toyota/Honda/Nissan owners would love to say that BMW is just a name. Well, has anyone really beaten BMW at it's game?? Has anyone beaten Mercedes in the safety field?? No. No.
Remember, i am a Toyota SUV fan, not a German fan. But, i will admit that Germans do make good performance & safe cars...well worth their price. I do not feel they are overpriced.
Now, Toyota 4Runners. Is it overpriced?? Well, for a 1996 design, it did extremely well in crash testing (compare that to other 1996 designs!). In fact, it ranks right up there with 2003 designs too! Interior may be cramped, but it is put together with extreme precision and care. I have no rattles at all over 16,000 miles. Interior materials are high-grade. Even the hard plastics are thick. Look at the structure of the 4Runner...fully boxed frame and crossmembers...all high-strength steel. The front suspension is made of boxed control arms. Solid axle in the rear. Anti-roll bar linkage is no smaller than 1/2 ton truck.
Is it overpriced?? I don't think so. I think that i am an intelligent consumer.
Clearly stated and unambiguous!
Curiousity [sic] does not equal understanding apparently.
Apparently!
Just to be clear, the topic is (once again) Mitsubishi Montero and while some comparison is to be expected be aware that the topic is NOT Toyota 4Runner.
tidester, host
Most of what you say is 1/2 truths constructed to put down the Montero rather than appretiate its true strengths
Why do you spend so much time here anyway. Is your Toyota in the shop?
Most of the higher tech SUV are or will be independent suspension and unibody with much more strenght than current body on rails like the toyota. Not everything about this newer design is better but enough is to make it superior. Toyota will go to this, it is jst a matter of time.
Mitsubishi motors has developed and patent many designs that are technologically superior. Just spend some time on the corp sites and you will see this is a company looking at the future in many things it makes, it is a huge company.
Also, remind me when did i mention the '03 4Runner?? Very few times i think (if at all).
BTW, in general, unibody is cheaper to make than body-on-frame.
More strength?? Crash test does not prove this (look at Montero's scores). And i am sure the new 4runner/GX470 will get top grades in crash testing DESPITE being body-on-frame. Unibodies bend and twist (they have to) over rough terrains, no matter how much "strengthening" they have.
The ONLY unibody that i respect is the new Range Rover...but look, it weighs AS MUCH as a body-on-frame (actually it is a bit HEAVIER). Do you know why?? Because they have to strengthened it sooooo much to prevent twisting. So, really what is the point of unibody???
What is superior about Montero's unibody & independent suspension?? Sure, it provides better ride (but rolls over!). Sure you have room for a tiny 3rd row seating...for this, i buy a MINIVAN. For crash protection?? Well, from the looks of things, Montero is no better than my old body-on-frame 4runner.
So, what's the advantage??? Where's the magnificent engineering you guys have talked about??
If you notice, Toyota makes the Highlander (camry based). YET, with the new 4Runner, they went with body-on-frame, DESPITE most other soccer mom SUVs being unibody.
And Toyota is a BIG company...and i am sure they do plenty of research.
Personal experience -- my son managed to break the (solid) front axle where it enters the pumpkin on my 3/4 ton 1986 4x4 Suburban (Dana, I think) while offroading.
If solid axles are so strong, why do they need aftermarket axle trusses?
The steering seems to be more responsive now with the "D" range, Tri-Guard sidewall BFGs, which, I think, was a complaint in some of the road tests on the 2001.
-PHOnos
Anyone can break anything, Phonos. I am sure i can find a way to break a Dana 60 or 80. However, it will be A LOT harder to break it than IFS. There was no point to your story.
In solid axle, the diff (aka "pumpkin") is lower. The truss is like a skidplate for the diff (just like what my 4runner has in front). It DOES NOTHING TO IMPROVE THE STRENGTH OF AXLE. Therefore, it would not have helped your son's problem.
The "pumpkin" is still a lot stronger (harder to break) than the control arms on an independent suspension. Also, the halfshafts on the independent suspension is vulnerable. Just ask your son.
What is your point again about axle trusses??
Engineering composites, and other "plastics" are being used in such things as jet engine nacelles, wing skins, helicopter rotors, space station trusses, radomes, missile fins, jet engine guide vanes, etc. Pretty harsh environments, yes?
Only thing probably better would be a titainium alloy, but cost prohibitive.
Come on, let's not go too far. If you say that then i can claim the metal skidplates on my brother's Wrangler Rubicon as being from the space shuttle itself! Is that going too far??
You still have not answered my question: do you think IFS is stronger than a solid axle in off-roading??
How'd we gravitate to this? Anyway.. those are safe designs but they are not only beatable, they are surpassed in some cases. Lets go to their own continent: The EuroNcap (People who wrote the book on thourough crash testing) Rates the 9-5 as the "safest sedan they've ever tested".
Doesn't really matter but people fall into those traps sometimes. There are Plenty of cars out there that are every bit as crashworthy and more so in some cases as a BMW or Merc. Plenty of domestic, Asian and European designs.
Drew
Solid axles dont handle as well and in rough corners you can loose directional stability.
Independent suspension is superior. You really need to read a little more or at least intertain the real reason Toyota still uses it....to save money.
Intmed: Once again you show that your bias for what ever Toyota makes to cloud your judgement.
First Test: 2003 Mitsubishi Montero Limited
Fortified with more power, beautified with less cladding
By Ron Sessions
Motor Trend, December 2002
In the world of largish SUVs, the Montero goes its own way--confidently and independently. And for '03, the big Mitsubishi struts its stuff with more gusto, thanks to a larger, more powerful engine. Mitsubishi bored and stroked last year's 3.5L V-6 to 3.8L, slipped in a more aggressive cam profile, increased airflow into and out of the engine, and upped compression from 9.0:1 to 10.0:1. Horsepower rises 7.5 percent, from 200 to 215, and torque climbs from 235 to 248 lb-ft.
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Specifications
Base price: $36,597
Vehicle layout: Front engine, 4wd, 4-door, 7-pass
Engine: 3.8L/215-hp V-6, SOHC, 4 valves/cyl
0-60 mph, sec: 9.60
1/4 mile, sec/mph: 17.05/80.13
Slalom, mph: 53.5
Braking, 60-0, ft: 127.6
On sale in U.S.: Currently
"On the road, the larger V-6 feels richer at launch and has more staying power at the top end. Mid-range, part-throttle response is more satisfying too because peak torque is developed at lower engine speed. The good news is this V-8-like performance has no fuel penalty. In fact, the 3.8L's EPA estimated city/highway fuel economy actually increases this year from 14/19 to 15/19, although premium fuel is now recommended. A five-speed Sportronic sequential-shift automatic transmission gives the driver the option of manual control."
Please read the whole article, some nice comments including how the Montero did as well as the rest of the SUV field on thier test track with no indication of a roll over problem
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/112_0210_verd/index2.html
"One-Year Verdict: 2001 Mitsubishi Montero Limited
What's New, Changed, Different
It appears Mitsubishi product planners heard the gripes. For 2002, the busy (some say over-the-top) chrome door mirrors, taillight surrounds, and grille are changed to monochromatic, matching the Montero's exterior color, of which there are three new options. On the safety front, the Montero's second-row center seat now has a three-point safety belt and height-adjustable head restraint. Also, Mitsubishi has grouped popular and/or new options into two packages (Touring and Premium) for the XLS and Limited models, respectively. For 2003, changes are more substantial. XLS and Limited models get a fresh, new face with restyled grille, front fascia, and headlights plus cleaner side cladding that integrates standard side steps. More important, the SOHC 3.5L V-6 grows to 3.8L, offering more horsepower and much-needed torque. Dynamic Stability Control becomes standard on both models, while audio systems receive upgrades, as well.
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From the Logbook
"Over broken dirt roads, the independent rearend is just short of amazing. I love the 4WD (with locking diffs everywhere) and the 'We're here for you' tool kit in the rear door. I wish all serious SUV manufacturers were this thorough."--Mark Williams
"I could do without some of the gratuitous chrome plating, but overall its unique take on SUV style sets it well apart from the omnipresent Explorers and Grand Cherokees."--Chris Walton
"The Montero is the perfect adventure vehicle for doers. As my fondness for its abilities grows, so does my liking of the angry cyber-Samurai exterior."--Jeff Bartlett
"The factory-fitted auxiliary driving lights are the best I've seen on a stock SUV or truck."--John Kiewicz
"I used the Mitsu to move and discovered it rides much better on the freeway when it's loaded to the gunnels."--David Newhardt
"The Montero feels upscale inside. I love the textures: high-tech modern briefcase meets Wall Street boardroom. It feels Range Rover-like tooling around L.A."--John Matthius
WHAT'S HOT
·Race-proven off-road abilities
·Upscale, almost Range Rover interior
·Seats seven in comfort
"If you want to get a feel as to how big it is, give it a hand wash--only be sure you invite a tall friend to help or bring along a step ladder and plenty of rags."--Walt Woron (Editor, Motor Trend, 1949-1960)
WHAT'S NOT
·V-8 thirst with V-6 horsepower
·Excessive exterior chrome & cladding
·Eyeball-bending convex rearview mirrors
This is again a wild guest from intmed99. Body on frame are much cheaper to built because it required much less engineering. A "boxed" frame with solid axel housing and brakes line and some other part costs manafacturer about $200 dollars.
[More strength?? Crash test does not prove this (look at Montero's scores). And i am sure the new 4runner/GX470 will get top grades in crash testing DESPITE being body-on-frame. Unibodies bend and twist (they have to) over rough terrains, no matter how much "strengthening" they have.]
More strength in term of ride quality. Body on frame jiggle and have poorer ride quality. Refinement is the key here.
The ONLY unibody that i respect is the new Range Rover...but look, it weighs AS MUCH as a body-on-frame (actually it is a bit HEAVIER). Do you know why?? Because they have to strengthened it sooooo much to prevent twisting. So, really what is the point of unibody???
Do you know the weight of the Range Rover unibody itself? or just because you see the truck is heavier and assumed that the body is heavier?
[What is superior about Montero's unibody & independent suspension?? Sure, it provides better ride (but rolls over!). Sure you have room for a tiny 3rd row seating...for this, i buy a MINIVAN. For crash protection?? Well, from the looks of things, Montero is no better than my old body-on-frame 4runner.]
I just saw on TV a 4Runner rolled over on its roof. Do you mean that the 4Runner will not roll over?
[So, what's the advantage??? Where's the magnificent engineering you guys have talked about?? ]
The advantage is refinement, period.
And you keep bringing up minivan. Let me point out to you that the Chrysler minivan and the last generation Siena has a beam suspension in the back. Both got beat by Honda minivan which has an independent suspension.
I have always felt that minivans SHOULD have independent suspensions. I agree that the Honda minivan is excellent. It is also far more practical than ANY SUV out there.
But, minivan is not an SUV in terms of capability. Engineering between the two are different.
I never said the ride or handling will be better with a solid axle. It is just that the Montero, despite all-independent, has flaws in it's handling.
All vehicle will roll over if the driver is not careful. HOWEVER, ONLY the Montero did bad in Consumer Report's test recently (Trooper and Suzuki were the other two). 4Runner NEVER had any problem with CR's tests.
Range Rover's weight?? Where do you think it comes from?? It's suspension is independent (thus, likely lighter than solid axle). It's engine is a BMW engine. It has 5-people capacity (not 8). Look at Range Rover's unibody. It is quite impressive. Crawl underneath one...extremely well supported. BTW, it weighs MORE than a Lexus LX470!
Body-on-frame jiggles?? That's more due to solid axle. That has NOTHING to do with "strength". Crash test results do have something to do with strength...and from what i can see, the Montero is no better than my old 4Runner.
Go to a local Ford dealership...which is more expensive to build, Ford Windstar or Explorer?? A properly designed frame takes a lot of time and research. The BODY itself IS a unibody! Then, you have to design the frame. Finally, you need to determine the optimal placements of body-on-frame.
Where did you get $200?? Did you call Toyota in Japan to ask??
BTW, i really like the Montero's interior...i have never insulted that part of the Montero.
WONB, i have read all of that ONE review source. BTW, did you read the review from TRUCKTREND (same as MotorTrend) on the '99 4Runner...it was quite amazing!
Independent suspension IN GENERAL is better than solid axle in terms of ride and handling. Montero handling is not that good however. Most reviews have it's g-force around 0.69, no better than my 4runner or TLC.
According to this Edmunds comparo, Montero was in LAST place:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/53479/article.- - html?tid=edmunds.e.roadtests....Mitsubishi*
Excerpt from that review:
"The suspension delivers an acceptable level of comfort when cruising on the highway, but our off-road excursions revealed a setup far less comfortable than some of the more softly sprung vehicles in the test. Road feel is one thing, but harsh impacts over every nook and cranny begin to take their toll after a while, and more than one editor complained about the Montero's stiff ride."
Ok, where's that amazing ride you guys talked about??
However, independent suspension does NOT equal more CAPABILITY. Period. Poor wheel travel. Ground clearance not static. Control arms can get caught up on rocks. More things handing down to snag. More expensive to repair.
I don't think Toyota was trying to save money. The Highlander has independent. Being one of the most profitable company, Toyota has enough funds to make an independent suspension if they saw the need. Obviously, they did not. It is called maintaining off-road capability. Toyota Land Cruiser and LX470 are known for their very good on-road ride...in fact, the LX470 has one of the best on-road ride of ANY SUV. Show me a review that criticizes the Land Cruiser or LX470 for providing a bad ride. You will find nothing.
WONB, can you show me data that says that my 4runner is in the shop often???
Strange, did Mitsu find a way to make the unibody on the Montero unbending?? Unibody is essentially ONE piece of metal. If one front and one rear wheel diagonal to it are on a rock, that piece of metal will twist, UNLESS you reinforced it heavily (aka Range Rover). In the Acura MDX (which has a really strong unibody), you are unable to close the doors in this position. Jeep Grand Cherokee, same thing. Unibody has this inherent weakness. Think about it.
How many off-roading vehicle out there that you see have PLASTIC skidplates?? How many aftermarket manufacturers sell PLASTIC skidplates??
How many axle "trusses" are made of plastic??
I do not care about aerospace crap...this is a $32K car! BTW, i guess Saturn cars must be great off-roaders!
I prefer the plastic to metal, because it does give a little and is less weight when taking off to change the oil.
The Sport has two metal plates underneath the front that covers the entire front end and one underneath the transmission. It is cumbersome when changing oil for you have to remove the back plate before you can remove the front, for they overlap.
Personally I have been looking at the Montero and 4-Runner for my next purchase. Pro's and Con's on both units. I do like the power better out of the 4-Runner, but like the space better in the Montero.
Being subjective, it is a tough decision for me to make. I am a Toyota buff and have had many. But I have been impressed with the Sport. You can believe reviews only so far. Long term ownership is really what will tell the story.
And, yes, there have been a few people who have not been happy with their Sports. There are three happy owners at my work place who own the Sport. But no one here owns a Montero. That is why I listen to what viet, phonos, brill, and others who own them, and have put on several miles on them, have to say about it. They have a good idea. I do not.
Intmed... That's your problem... your whole attitude here. You come in here to insult. I'm just curious why and why you care.
Are there individuals posting here that follow you to the Toyata Boards to insult Toyota owners? I just don't understand people like you. Do you visit the homes of your family and friends and tell them all the things that are wrong with their homes and why yours is better? It wouldn't surprise me if you did.
Drew
The Montero set up is toward off-road. Thus the soft suspension setting and as car and driver call "colosal suspension traveling". All this translate into better ride quality while off-roading; specifically better than in a 4Runner.
All vehicle will roll over if the driver is not careful. HOWEVER, ONLY the Montero did bad in Consumer Report's test recently (Trooper and Suzuki were the other two). 4Runner NEVER had any problem with CR's tests.
The 4Runner set-up is stiffer, that is why the rough ride. Should be better handling, it is not. About CR's, I do not know. I have the truck for 3 years now and according to CR, I should roll over a couple of times now.
Range Rover's weight?? Where do you think it comes from?? It's suspension is independent (thus, likely lighter than solid axle). It's engine is a BMW engine. It has 5-people capacity (not 8). Look at Range Rover's unibody. It is quite impressive. Crawl underneath one...extremely well supported. BTW, it weighs MORE than a Lexus LX470!
Luxury car are heavier due to heavily re-inforce body, but also due to sound proofing and other luxury items, even seats are heavier. Independence suspension is not lighter than solid axel. It requires more mounting, arms, shaft. The advantage is less unsprung weight. This is my point about the 4Runner is cheaply built.
Body-on-frame jiggles?? That's more due to solid axle. That has NOTHING to do with "strength". Crash test results do have something to do with strength...and from what i can see, the Montero is no better than my old 4Runner.
Can you explain to me how a body mount on a frame won't jiggle. Do they weld the whole chassis to the frame?
Strength is one thing, refinement is another thing.
Go to a local Ford dealership...which is more expensive to build, Ford Windstar or Explorer?? A properly designed frame takes a lot of time and research. The BODY itself IS a unibody! Then, you have to design the frame. Finally, you need to determine the optimal placements of body-on-frame.
They are both cheaply built. Let try Mercedes ML (body on frame and BMW X5 series. Which one do you think is cheaply built?
Where did you get $200?? Did you call Toyota in Japan to ask??
I read. That is from Automotive industry journal. I raised the price, it actually cheaper than that.
Independent suspension IN GENERAL is better than solid axle in terms of ride and handling. Montero handling is not that good however. Most reviews have it's g-force around 0.69, no better than my 4runner or TLC.
Ok, so you can see that independence suspension is better. So why would we want to buy something that offer less and cost more? If the handling is not better then the ride still is. And I am sure after you drive the Montero off-road, you will be impress as well. Good ride, nice interior.
According to this Edmunds comparo, Montero was in LAST place:
Excerpt from that review:
"The suspension delivers an acceptable level of comfort when cruising on the highway, but our off-road excursions revealed a setup far less comfortable than some of the more softly sprung vehicles in the test. Road feel is one thing, but harsh impacts over every nook and cranny begin to take their toll after a while, and more than one editor complained about the Montero's stiff ride."
According to Car and Driver, the 4Runner is not even luxury enough for their comparo. They also said that the Montero off road capability was just as good as the then Land Rover without being tossing head.
[Ok, where's that amazing ride you guys talked about??]
Try for your self, do not guess.
However, independent suspension does NOT equal more CAPABILITY. Period. Poor wheel travel. Ground clearance not static. Control arms can get caught up on rocks. More things handing down to snag. More expensive to repair.
I believe you, so your 4Runner have a front independent suspension and it is bad?
I don't think Toyota was trying to save money. The Highlander has independent. Being one of the most profitable company, Toyota has enough funds to make an independent suspension if they saw the need. Obviously, they did not. It is called maintaining off-road capability. Toyota Land Cruiser and LX470 are known for their very good on-road ride...in fact, the LX470 has one of the best on-road ride of ANY SUV. Show me a review that criticizes the Land Cruiser or LX470 for providing a bad ride. You will find nothing.
High Lander is a front driver. It is cheap and easy to have independence suspension. LC is nice but for 65K, give me a Cayene.
Strange, did Mitsu find a way to make the unibody on the Montero unbending?? Unibody is essentially ONE piece of metal. If one front and one rear wheel diagonal to it are on a rock, that piece of metal will twist, UNLESS you reinforced it heavily (aka Range Rover). In the Acura MDX (which has a really strong unibody), you are unable to close the doors in this position. Jeep Grand Cherokee, same thing. Unibody has this inherent weakness. Think about it.
Have you look? The Montero has 2 massive beams running the whole length of the truck, which is not unlike the frame on a body on frame at all, only bigger!. the only different is it is welded to the chassis.
Think body on frame guaranteed toughness. Try an older Blazer you can see door gap widen during off road condition.
How many off-roading vehicle out there that you see have PLASTIC skidplates?? How many aftermarket manufacturers sell PLASTIC skidplates??
How many axle "trusses" are made of plastic??
I can see that all you know about the Montero is very near zero and most of the thing you post is wild guesses. I am not trying to defend the Montero, I am not Misubishi, and I am not a fan like you are. But for my observation, Misubishi put alot of work on the Montero and and sell it cheaper then the 4Runner (which was my first choice at one time) I appreciate that just like I appreciate some one did a very good work building a house for less money. Your complain about unibody weakness and off-road capability has no bases here. Everyone know that the Montero has very good off-road capability, and the truck has not fall to pieces because of its unibody. Its suspension while not ultra luxury ride, does perform better in off-road condition both interm of ride and capability then many truck in its class, IMO. It is very funny when you keep complaining about the plastic skid plate, while you get much less for your money with your 4Runner. Skid plate can be replace cheap, less then $100. Dated design can not be change at any price... but then I am not going into that again, I do not think you can comprehend that
Actually, according to CR, my '02 4Runner did well in slalom testing! Yours rolled over! Check it out for yourself.
Ok, are we talking about refinement or strength?? I thought we were talking about strength. I am confused.
Independent has more "arms". The shaft is the same! Oh boy, someone needs to learn more about suspensions! Yes, independent has less unsprung weight...which is critical in a sports car, less so in a >4000 lbs SUV.
Do you even know how much the Range Rover weighs?? Go check it out. Remember, LX470 is also luxurious.
Show me good evidence the difference in cost between X5 and ML500 frame. Since your brought it up, i want to learn too.
When has anyone complained about my 4Runner's ride off-road??? I have not heard ONE complaint. Personally, i like it.
Yeah, you're right, i am not a big fan of MY 4runner's front suspension. It has poor travel. However, my IFS is stoutly built (boxed upper & lower control arms)...linkages are heavy-duty. What makes the 4Runner capable is it's LONG-travel rear suspension, on par with Land Rover Discovery's rear axle (my brother's SUV). Thus, this helps out my limited IFS.
The two beams you talked about is seen ON ALMOST EVERY UNIBODY SUV out there!! My old Honda CRV had it! The Acura MDX has it. Range Rover has it.
TLC is cheaper than $65K. Don't get me started on the Porsche SUV!
What does the old Blazer have to do with 4runners?? Should i compare my 4runner to the first generation of Jeep Cherokee, which had a crappy unibody??
Anything else??
Also, I cant think of another review that didnt give the Montero high marks for off road ability and luxury like car ride on road.
Here is what 4 wheeler said. Notice that despite the articulation issue that causes the wheel to lift in extreme situations they still could get through with the limited slip. Overall, not perfect but a good blend of characteristics it seems.
"One of the most noticeable aspects on the new Monty is that it has independent suspension at every corner. We expected that the Montero would ride nicely on the highway and it did. On twisty mountain roads, every tester noticed that when at the limits of its handling capabilities, the Montero had a strange, squirrelly feeling to it. We think that this feel came in part from the Yokohama tires that this unit wore, which didn’t provide a lot of grip on either pavement or dirt.
Where the four-wheel independent suspension did shine was in the high-speed dirt sections. It ate up the rough stuff without any problems, and shock valving and spring rates were spot-on for this type of activity, helped in no small amount by the reduction of unsprung weight that is the handmaiden—indeed, the point—of independent suspension. Having powerful, four-piston disc brakes at every corner helped slow things down in a hurry, further bolstering the Montero’s prowess.
Independent suspension has never been known for its articulation, however, and this character flaw showed up on the rougher, slower trails. The Montero would lift wheels at every obstacle it came to. While unnerving, this did not stop progress because the limited-slip would immediately kick in and propel the Montero through most obstacles. Once testers got used to having at least one tire off the ground, the Montero proved to be surprisingly capable off-road. "
The people who have changed thier tires have noticed that the "squirrely" feeling that was noticed above goes away. I am changing out my tires today with C load and will let you know. I have discussed this with the TIre Rack folks and they said that the OEM Geolanders sidewalls are very soft, even compared with the very same model aftermarket. Seems that OEM tires in general are very soft and dont wear long. On an SUV of this weight that would explain the improved handling by putting anything on it other than the OEM tire
As far as construction quality I would strongly disagree that the new 4 runner is better built. I looked under one at Costco the other day since Intmed suggested that the metal guard and front suspension are better built.
I would say the the Montero suspension is larger, seemingly better built and the metal rock guard I could bend with my fingers.
I would say that the plastic vs metal OEM guards are a wash and that anyone thinking they are going to be hitting rocks would want a much better guard.
Personally, I would love to get the JAOS guard and bull bar if I had the extra cash.
I don't see it as productive to compare 4Runners with Muranos which are different classes of vehicles.
tidester, host
Obviously, it would be equally objectionable to turn the 4Runner topic into a Murano dominated discussion. :-)
tidester, host
2000 Honda Passport, Toyota 4Runner or Mitsubishi Montero Sport, which is the best buy?
Ok, it's the Sport and not the "pure" Monty, but I'm still lost about the Murano talk :-)
Steve, Host
tidester, host