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Comments
Here is where ljflx can be of help. lj, about 10 days ago you stated that this C & D comparison is a joke and I agree with you. You also said that you really had to look hard but in a subtle message the C & D revealed that the LS460L was indeed a pre-production model. I read the article through a link this past hour, but I cannot find this subtle statement. Where exactly is it located? I did see that the test was done on August 29 with a stated curb weight of 4700 pounds. How can this not be a pre-production model?
After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that the real reason my tennis buddy decided to go with the S550 was for prestige. In his mind, he will look like more of a "big shot" with the S550. After all the trouble he had with his S500, I am very surprised he went to the "dark side" ;-).
Merry Christmas and a Happy, healthy New Year everyone!
In the exerp below (which comes in the LS review part of the story) here's the only time in that review that you see mention of the car as a pre-production car. If you're not paying close attention you read right past it.
"The steering mechanism rotates as if on roller bearings (it might well be), and the sound levels are low enough inside that imperfect door seals on our preproduction vehicle produced wind noise that seemed hurricane-like in comparison"
Now compare that to how they went out of their way to let you know the A8 was a 2006 model right out of the gate before you even get into the A8 part of the review:
For 2007, the A8 has a new direct-injection 4.2-liter V-8 with 350 horsepower; unfortunately, only a 2006 with the 40-valve, 335-hp V-8 was available for this test. So keep in mind that the specification, performance, and pricing information are for the 2006 A8L. Expect the ’07 car to be a smidge quicker and cost about $1000 more.
Now shouldn't the quid pro quo (if you are reporting objectively) have been to state that "unfortunately, the LS 460L we tested was a preproduction model etc" and for that to have been made crystal clear in the article upfront. When I see bias like that I dismiss the whole report on the LS immediately whether it's pro or con. Of course it had no chance to be pro and that's why they made the notation of preproduction as hidden as they could.
Here's the whole story:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/12081/2006-jaguar-super-v-8-vs-2007-merc- - - edes-benz-s550-vs-2006-audi-a8l-quattro-vs-2007-lexus-ls460l-vs-2006-bmw-750li.h- - - tml
BTW - I mentioned this review to a high source at my dealership. His response - which may be predjudiced or may be accurate - is that many auto reviewers are not happy that Lexus is selling $80-100K cars. As well the expected rollout of the L650 and the sportscar - which will be priced at $150K and the pre-orders of the LS600HL at over $100K are making it even worse. Most thought that when LS prices bumped against S550 prices and leapfrogged 7-series prices LS sales would falter. Instead people are bypassing the reviews and lining uo for the cars. As a poster pointed out earlier the car is difficult to even test drive because it is snapped up so quickly. I've heard a few reports about the LS460L going $5K or more over list now.
I say, you can afford it, get one and boost the economy a bit. You won't be sorry, and you'll enjoy the car tremendously. I'm going to, but my current model is an 05, and I'm waiting probably another year or so.
OK - I've got to get back to Christmas before my wife and kids kill me.
The 460 is not revolutionary at all; rather it should be viewed as a refined, heavier, smaller inside (SWB), and restyled version of the 4XX product line. For those of us who own/drive an earlier version of this series have long learned to appreciate the many wonderful attributes of the vehicle, and coupled with an examplary reliability history there is little reason to change except for emotional considerations. The changes being hyped probably are not cost effective if one is currently driving a late model 4XX. Thanks guys.
BTW, I think the 9-spoke wheels of the 460 are dopey...anybody else bothered by this detail?
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
I'm Going to keep my nice looking, reliable, 65K 2001 LS 430 for 6-12 more months. During this period I'll decide what options and color I want for the 460. Dealers will start to deal and all (any) glitches will be fixed. My 430 won't depreciate much more. I'll see the new variations including AWD and the hybrid if they come out.
Besides the other pluses I'll save about $1200 A MONTH by waiting just this short period.
My ego won't be too bruised as my brain wins this little battle. Input here from all of you was helpful.
I'm keeping my 05 for a couple more years myself - until it starts to look worn anyway, it is exactly what I want in a car.
Oh, me too, absolutely!! Everything about the S-550 is more appealing to me. The size of the steering wheel, the seats, the power, the drive and the looks. However, COMAND is a nightmare, always has been. Every time I test drive an S-Class, there are numerous things wrong with it that "I can bring it back to service to fix at my convenience" if I buy it. It's a ton more money than the Lexus, and it would be worth it, if it gave me the same type of reliability as the Lexus does, but it doesn't even come close. And lastly, you're exactly right, the sales people don't get it. I go in in my suit, driving my Lexus, not exactly looking destitute. The salesman I'm talking to in the showroom, assigns me to a salesbabe to take me on a "test ride" where I get the "turn right, turn right, turn right" treatment right back to the dealership. Upon arrival, the salesman who was too busy to go with me says, "How do you like it". My reply; Well, I really don't know from 4 right turns in a quarter mile. At Lexus, they tell me to take it home for the weekend and let them know on Monday. So far, I've bought every car I took home.
MB is arrogant, and so are their people. For the money, value and service, I like the LExus.
Dont know how to make my Mac I pod or Xm satellite work, nor have I started to dig into the 3" thick manual. Still on first tank of gas. Slow learner. I think i will miss the rear AC now that I have a bigger (LWB) car, no side shades, black interior and live in the desert. But I think I will be able to stop better (than the standard car)and the bigger wheels/brakes will be more adaptable to 20" after market wheels if I so decide. That was a trade off I made when I got the touring. I too read the C&D review. They compared a Lexus with dual AC and deducted for smaller trunk which is mandated by the second AC system. Did not use touring car with bigger brakes and deducted for longer stopping distance. Tested a pre production car, not a full production model. Did they plan to sabotage the Lexus? If so, why? Read the report days before I took delivery and could have cancelled and bought a Merc 550 but my 15+ years and nearly 500,000 miles of absolute trouble free ownership gave me pause. My 2003 SL55 has been in the Mercedes shop 2x and both times the experience was totally unsatisfactory. I have much more to say but I have taken up enough space. Merry Christmas, Happpy New Year and best to all. Mike@Tucson.
Incidentally, by coincidence I talked with the salesman you bought your car from this morning. It's a small world.
Currently , i do own the LS 460 std , and a partner owns the LS 460 long . the LS swb has about 400 miles on her , and the Long has 2200 miles .
The swb is a $ 67.2 List , and the Long = $ 81.8 .
SIMPLY PUT : THERE IS NO CAR IN PRODUCTION , NOW OR EVER
WAS EQUAL TO THE 2007 LS .
I do own a few LS 400's and 430's . ( one of the LS 400's has 900 miles on her... a 1990 ... the 39th car shipped to n america )( no : not 4 sale ) ...
AS A CUSTOMER ( non dealer ) I HAVE SOME REAL TIME EXPERIENCE , AND ADMIRATION FOR THE LEXUS AND IT'S CREDO .
----------
THERE ARE TOO MANY ISSUES AND QUESTIONS ON THESE PAGES , TO GO ABOUT ANSWERING BACK & FORTH .
I WILL RESPOND TO "SPECIFIC QUESTIONS " FROM ANYONE ABOUT THE "07 LS .
---------
I WILL OPENLY SAY : SIMPLY : THE 2007 LS , IN ANY FORM , SHORT OR LONG , SPOKED WHEELS OR HUB CAPS PLATED IN 24 K GOLD , IT IS THE FINEST , BEST , MOST ENJOYABLE MACHINE
TO HAUL MY BUTT FROM PLACE TO PLACE .
I'm just up the road a bit from the Tucson duo at our Scottsdale house for the holidays driving our Infiniti 35 Coupe which is certainly a very fun alternative to the LS which is back up in Seattle so haven't had the pleasure of driving the LS yet on the AZ roads.
i disliked the 18 " wheel / tire set up which was an option on the "05 and "06 LS430 . in the market where I live , the dealers who have a coercive meeting together , before the card are ordered , agree to order all their cars with the same options . therefore , the 18" wheels / tires were a mandatory option in my neck of the woods . first the option was $ 200 , then it became $ 1800 . the 18's with the dunlop d 5000's were what i called the " wandering
desert rats " . the car drifted from side to side , and favored a right drift . there were all kinds of factory fixes , that never made the car go straight . additionally , the wheel balance on the 18's with dunlops , was next to impossible . certain roads were the worst . i finally threw away the d5000's and put on bridgestone torenza's . the stone's worked in a straight line , and ran ok in the rain . the dunlop 18's slipped in the wet like silicone .
the LS 460 swb , that i acquired has 18's in bridgestone's from the factory . also , they are a fatter size , with more tire on the ground , like the 17's on the LS 430's .
summation : the LS460 swb with 18" stone's runs true , hold's in the wet , and are stiff .
Other improvements : heated steering wheel , satellite radio built into the radio , higher roofline for head room , larger rear seat area , control of rear hot seats
from the front or back , much hotter and wider headlight beam / vision , tire pressure by digits on the dash , more pleasing and brighter interior lighting , trunk that open and closes itself like the rx's , doors that close themselves , an even quieter ride , and finally some noise from the engine when it's running .
additionally , like the SC430 coupe , the leather is outstanding with heavy stitching and detail work worthy of a fine english automobile .
more power from a dead stop , no noticeable gear shifting from 8 forward gears , a larger fuel tank , and a center
console that shuts itself .
that's alot for one answer .
mitchell rowe
Bad, arrogant Japanese business, and I'm not over it yet.
question please :
your statement published as follows :
Bad, arrogant Japanese business, and I'm not over it yet.
IF THIS IS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT OUR JAPANESE FRIENDS ,
WHY DO YOU BUY AND DRIVE LEXUS ?
mitchell rowe
re : 18' wheels + dunlap 5000's
are on the standard model LS430
don't know what the factory used as rubber / wheels on the sport option ...
i do think the wheels are 18' , but the tires are
SUMMER TIRES - NOT ALL SEASON ....
probably not the dunlop 5000's
happy nerw year
mitchell rowe
note : on the 2007 LS 460 ,
the wheel nut torque has been INCREASED SUBSTANTIALLY
from the ls 430
CHECK YOUR OWNERS MANUAL FOR PROPER TORQUE
FOR YOUR MODEL
PROPER TORQUE ON A " NEW CAR " , INSURES
SEATING OF THE ROTORS , AS TO NOT WARP .
mitchell rowe
If you look at my posts for the past 2 weeks, I have been seeking feedback from those who have owned/driven both models...not just from readers of magazines who seemingly are more interested to compare the 460 w/MB products, rather than earlier Lexus LS 4XX series.
Thanks and Happy New Year
please accept , these are my personal opinions , from personal experiences . i am not a graduate technician / expert .
TORQUE : I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE LS 460 ( new model )
the new model , LS 460 , requires a higher torque on the lug nuts ( higher than the LS 430 ) ... for the LS 460 please see the owners manual for proper foot pounds .
BRAKES : YOUR LS 430 HAS BRAKE ASSIST . THE BRAKES ARE
THE BEST THEY CAN BE ON A PRODUCTION CAR , WITH NO FADE IN A PANIC STOP .
BRAKES ON THE LS 460 COMPARED TO THE LS 430 :
the brakes on the LS 430 , are more sensitive to the touch of the foot , but i do not think they are different in any technical or operational respect .
the "brake hold function , by "pushbutton " is an extremely helpful , functional addition to the vehicle .
for one thing , you can't forget to put the emergency brake on or off , as the automobile does it for you .
( safer )
COMPARE WITH MB PRODUCTS : i cannot / will not compare a lexus to a mercedes . as a previous multi mercedes owner , all i can say is : it's a great car , if you have a spare car to ride around in while your mb is being rebuilt , rewired , and re programmed .
You have a " great car " in your LS 430 , enjoy it . it is the best there is . When the time comes , you'll be in an LS 460 soon enough .
Oh ! Tires : glad you have the stones for your shoes .
mitchell rowe
WHY DO YOU BUY AND DRIVE LEXUS ?
Decent question, Dr. Here's why. A) Toyota didn't do what Bridgestone did, and
If Toyota stonewalled like Bridgestone, I'd probably avoid them and distrust their products as well.
Look, I'm just being practical here....someday I'll consider Bridgestone again, when I feel their cause is just and their product is superior. I have no such evidence of that quite yet.
Lastly, you haven't asked yet, but I know you're wondering; my comments about Japanese business practices being arrogant wasn't really intended to denigrate the country - it's just kind of a way of life there, that first, they don't like to believe they have screwed up, and therefore are loathe to admit it, and secondly, they have a low opinion of Americans generally, thinking we're fat, stupid and lazy. I don't take it personally, I respect them for what they do well, and I'll buy Japanese goods, cars, etc without reservation except where there is direct evidence of abuse, as in the Firestone incident.
Thanks for asking
I drove a SWB today and was generally disappointed compared to the LWB driven previously (having air suspension, etc.) It is a noisy car, the steering feels numb, the backseat leg room is less, the rear window seemed to have less visibility, and driver seat seemed less comfortable (new pair of shoes syndrome?). It was shoed with Dunlop tires.
I still have a LWB on order with the touring package and hope it renews my enthusiasm compared to today's experience. The dealer had a 460 displayed with the optional (Telios??) wheels and they are quite an improvement IMO over the standard 18"...the price was increased $2,995 for this feature. I have seen the 19" 5 spoke wheels on the TP and they look quite nice for my taste.
In Japan when an executive screws up they resign. Contrast that with American executives. Also Japanese executive compensation is much more in line with the overall employee compensation. Their newspapers
Japan Times, Daily Yomiuri, Nikkei, (English versions on web) etc. are as open, and maybe more so, than any American newspaper. I go to Japan once or twice a year on business and have never experienced any anti-Americanism . Here is my judgment of Japan:
1. Japan is the most civilized country in the world.
2. Japan is populated with quality fanatics
3. The Japanese aesthetic sense is remarkable
When Mitsubishi was found to have serious defects in their cars a few years ago, sales dropped precipitously in Japan and still haven't recovered. Nothing much happened to Mitsubishi in the USA.
Bridgestone tires: I have all season run-flats on my GS450h. They are noisier but perform beautifully in fast cornering without squealing. They came with the car. If the car came with Dunlops I would have asked the dealer to replace them. Although now owned by Bridgestone, Firestone tires are American.
Addendum: Just found this on the IHT review of Mitsubishi after writing the message above:
"But not every Mitsubishi company is enjoying a renaissance. Mitsubishi Motors, which has struggled since a defective product scandal in 2000 hurt its image, has registered sizable losses for three years in a row and is not expected to turn a profit for the year that will end in March."
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/29/business/wbmitsu.php
I wish I could believe that were true. Certainly not been my experience - clearly you don't go where I go. But as I say, I wish it were true.
I was involved in several cases of litigation over the Firestone tires made in Decatur IL, that were shown to be defective. Ultimately that plant was closed, at least for a time, but it was months before Bridgestone would admit that Explorers were flipping over ONLY on their tires, even when NHTSA proved it was so. I wasn't impressed with the integrity shown there by the CEO of Bridgestone. Any manufacturer can have issues. But as with Mitsubishi, Bridgestone also didn't not want to own an obvious issue.
Toyota was reticent to admit to their V-6 sludging problem, and although stepped up on some replacement engines, to this day they admit no engineering flaw, and attribute the entire phenomenon to "improper servicing" of the engine.
Honda put out some faulty transmissions in 04 that went into Accords, MDXs and Odesseys. Do they admit that they manufactured bad transmissions - not really. They have been good about replacing them if they blow under warranty, and most of them did.
I'm not a Japanese bigot - obviously, if I drive their best car, but they have faults, they're not perfect, as a culture or a people. My gosh, they attacked us for Pete's sake, and that was the stupidest thing any people could do! Their banking system and economy has nearly failed recently so, though they have their strengths, they're not the greatest IMO.
Eventually, I'll get over the Bridgestone thing. May take a couple years.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
In any case, we're here to talk about the LS 460 itself.
i do know there are no cars for sale , and a march car is an early delivery . i know people who are promised july
august . they are selling above list in the auto wholesale community . i have one , and it is truly an experience for the senses. there are rememberences of the LS400 and 430 ,
but the 460 is it's own car , in it's own world . one could easily say it is the first LS that is not "mindless" . it is a machine for those who appreciate an automobile .
Toyota, Lexus and Scion full year sales:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2007010356633
That's not to say some dealers don't have a few cars but be aware of the frequent inaccuracies of reported inventories.
Originally was going to get the burgundy (something like Nobel - something) with a back up of a black with cashmere.
Went and saw the Nobel outside and did nothing for me or the wife. As they say, I smiled at the car and it didn't smile back. I asked when the black with cashmere was coming in and they went to check. We then saw a black on black and thought is was the one we wanted.
Was told it just arrived and was not even on their delivery sheets. Bought it immediately.
Now, I had already been told they were getting list, but insisted getting a discount. After 3 hours on the phone, back and forth, was given a 3.5% discount (This would be the 4th Lexus in the last 3 years). I was told that they normally would not give a discount on the black/black, but would honor our discussion. New wheels were $2999 and they gave me $500.00 off.
Now this is a huge dealership and they have hundreds of cars on the lot and normally have a large number of LS's. They were literally selling the LS's when they were being delivered to their inventory yard, sight unseen and whenever they got one/two extra, they were selling immediately when they got to the showroom. The Nobel went during the 3 hour period I waited for snows to be installed.
My sales person said she set her own personal record with 42 cars during December.
Should have used spell checker......:-)