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jt
I am pretty sure this car does have LED rear lights. Check the press release again. Not that this feature is a big deal to most car buyers.
The Altima has a CVT but its mileage is barely better than the Aura/G6 and its worse than the Camry. It only gets 28 on the hwy which is exceded by several V6 cars in this class with conventional automatics. Under the new EPA rules the Altima's mileage is likely to be about the same as the Malibu V6.
A 5/6 will NOT automatically get you better gas mileage than a 4. Gears are spread apart at certain ratios, and where the manufacturer chooses to place the gear will dictate how much performance or economy the car has. With the outgoing 4T-60(E) four speed transmissions (transaxles really) GM was using, they had a nice low first gear. Coupled with the torquey OHV V6s they were coupled to, that gave strong off the line acceleration. Then what happened was 2nd and 3rd were spaced kinda wide apart. The result was a loss in pep at medium speeds. Either you kept your foot in it and the engine revved extremely high, or you were gentler with the throttle and the transmission took the higher gear and you didn't accelerate hard. When you got to 4th gear, around 40-45, the torque converter locked up and the final drive ratio was VERY economical! This is why most V6/4 speeds from GM used to get outstanding gas mileage on the freeway. Many many people have written about how their 4 speeds with 2.8/3.1/3.4/3.8 get well over 30 mpg on the highway.
The negatives of doing this spacing is that the car felt soft in the middle speeds, as I mentioned above.
I cannot think of a single car that would turn lower engine RPMs on the highway than GM's OHV V6s with four speeds, especially the ones through the 90s (because I hear they just revised the ratios very recently). So when GM starts bringing out these 6 speeds, it is unlikely that 6th will be any taller than 4th used to be a while back.
There will be mild economy gains in the middle speeds, but nothing extreme.
All this to say, the primary benefit of a 6 speed is performance, having a wide choice of ratios available at any given speed. Put your foot slightly in it, you downshift slightly, and the car zips ahead. You gain a lot of pep.
Economy will be a secondary gain, unless they shorten the final drive ratio as most imports and Ford have traditionally done. Then they may even loose that benefit. (One of my cars is a Ford with a 5 speed and at 70mph the engine is doing around 3100rpm on the highway. Contrast that to a typical GM 4 speed that would be around 1800-2000rpm.)
As for the Accord being old, I am aware of that but people on this forum (and magazines like C&D) claim the accord is still the benchmark so I am comparing the Malibu to this supposed Benchmark. For the Record I think the Altima, Camry, Aura and Fusion are superior to the Accord and they are on sale now. The 2008 Accord will likely be impressive and its price tag will be impressive as well. It will probably offer things not found on the malibu like nav and bluetooth, but those features will come at a price. Personally, I think $30k for an accord is too high when a TL starts at $33k.
My '99 Pk Av Ultra revs at about 1350 rpm @ 45 mph. I believe that the reasons you stated (OHV V-6 engines) are why the 4-speed is being kept around, because they WORK WELL TOGETHER!!! As I remember it,25-30 yrs. ago when gm came out w/ its 4 speed autos., no one else had them (somebody educate me otherwise, please?) the old 200r4 and 700r4, they got raked over the coals for not being all that reliable (compared w/ the old 400TH, which was bulletproof). Now I see people complaining about engine surge in 5-sp Camrys, trannies "hunting" for the right gear on Avalons, and a "whine" w/ the cvt. Maybe it's a good thing if GM releases this slowly.
With regard to Malibu pricing, I think GM has to bring it in significantly uder the Honda price. The public puts a premium on anything Honda or Toyota. I am not saying I agree with this but it is just my opinion. The key is to figure out what the premium is. My guess is it is between $5000 and $6000.
I agree. I'm still enjoying my 04 Maxx, even though it's not the best looking car I've ever owned. Now if they could take this 08 body and make an unobtrusive hatch, the way Mazda does with the Mazda6, yes that would be really sweet.
If this were the Camry discussion group I would have said the exact same thing - why offer LEDs on the hybrid and XLE models and cheap out for their bread and butter customers.
edit: also where are the knee airbags as offered in the Camry? Since all the car makers can make a basic car fairly similar, its the extra features which 'leap frog' the competition that helps separate it from the pack. This was a new design and it loses the 'airbag race'
I posted news of the Malibu on another site and the reaction was typical of the general public - those who are CamCord buyers were not impressed/uninterested, while those who still hang onto domestics had some enthusiasm. We all agreed that the rear tail lights was just plain awful.
I will very seriously look at this car later this year or next. Nice to see Chevy is finally putting some nice cars on the market.
Another thing I'll miss is the 3.5 ohv engine. Consistantly get 30-32 in highway driving along with 7K oil changes. Big comedown in mpg (and I bet higher maintenance) in the newer models. I'd probably get the four if I re-buy.
Just bought a Kia Optima with leather for my wife which cost the same (16K) as my Maxx. The Kia handles better (of course it has 50 series Michelins and hydraulic steering).
Most of the reasons why I'm so happy with my Maxx: the flexibility of having a big hatch, the low maintenance costs and the excellent mpg with a six (as good as a Kia four) will be gone with the new platform.
It does look nicer than the 04+ model but so do a lot of different cars.
"always a segment leader in the midsize-segment in terms of performance, fuel-efficiency, and the always RELIABILITY"
The Accord isnt the fastest in this class, its not the largest,, its not the best handling, the most efficient, nor is it the best looking. Even magazines that love the car acknowledge its styling isnt compelling.
I am 'real'. GM needs a knock-out vehicle if they're going to beat CamCords. That is a simple fact. Customers who are repeat CamCord buyers have very little incentive to look elsewhere and why should they? Their cars have proven reliability, dependability, and above average resale value. You cannot say the same about GM mid-sized sedans at this point in time. Maybe the Epsilon cars will prove to be just as good down the road, but right now consumers can only look at past history and hedge their bets with the imports.
It's very funny you should label me as an "import lover". No I happen to be a realist and someone who looks closely at all makes and models before dropping a significant amount of cash on a car purchase. I've owned nothing but domestics, but my current GM has left a VERY bad taste in my mouth (having a design flaw in the 3.8L engine tends to do that to a person). Despite the *stack* of repair bills I'm still rational enough to look at the current models and judge it on its merits. I drove the Aura and was pretty impressed, but not enough that I would take if over a Camry. Maybe the new Malibu will win me over when it arrives.
"You are saying that the Malibu is an also ran because it doesnt offer features that most of its Asian competition doesnt offer. In other words you want it to offer Lexus features, BMW performance and great styling and do all that for $5k less than an Accord."
Well if we're going to use personal shots and gross inaccurate statements, then what is it about domestic lovers who are so myopic that they can't get past the fact that the GM of the 80s and 90s produced a lot of bad cars and thats a reputation that they have to get rid of? Rather than put words in my mouth, here's what I am saying:
They need to offer slightly more features and/or innovations than the imports, at a slightly lower price (no not $5k worth), and above all else build their cars so that 5 years down their road they still run like clockwork. Impossible? Well heck if Hyundai can do it I don't see why GM can't. Hyundai offers a longer warranty, more standard equipment, and build quality which easily matches GM all for a lower price. What good is it being the largest automotive car maker on the planet if you can't use your economies of scale to crush the competition?
"Your assertion that no one other than ignorant, die hard, flag waving, domestic car buying morons think the car is worth something is way off base. "
Totally off-base. Please directly quote me where I said domestic buyers are morons. I find your personal attacks so detrimental for a proper discussion.
"Do you honestly think long time Honda/Toyota buyers would ever acknowledge that any Chevy/Ford/Chrysler vehicles may be woth buying? I don't. It really doesnt matter how good or bad the car may be."
And here we come to the heart of the matter. If GM is going to survive they need to win over these customers. Why else would they consider the Malibu one of the most important launches in their history? If they're not winning over long time import buyers then all they're doing is chasing after their (dwindling) customer base. Remind me again, how close is Toyota coming to knocking off GM as the #1 car maker?
Oh, well, maybe my next vehicle will be a Mazda6 hatchback after all.
Maybe Saturn will bring in a new Astra/Signum hatch or wagon.
Read up on the Aura, it is getting conquest sales. The same will likely apply for the Lamda vehicles, Malibu and CTS. The newer GM vehicles are good enough to attract SOME import buyers. Yes Toyota is about to pass GM in WORLDWIDE sales, but not US sales. GM sells no cars in Japan which is the 2nd largest auto market so its kind of hard for Toyota not to be #1. Besides, GM is cutting rebates and discounts and fleet sales which is basically ceded #1 to Toyota. Meanwhile Toyota is flooding dealer lots with vans and trucks that people dont want and selling them for $5000 under MSRP. Check your local paper. No wonder Toyota is gaining sales in the US.
I've gone through 3 GM vehicles - all had major issues well into their 5 year run. this is not a unique situation. A co-worker of mine has a late model Alero he purchased new. Without exaggeration it is the very definition of a lemon having been in the shop more times then he can count. No this is not unique to GM as it can apply to all manufacturers. The point is whether you look at the stats or not, its the public perception of past performance that GM has to overcome. They have to prove to people they can build the Malibu that can exceed import spec. More importantly, they have to prove to the Average Joe that their Malibu will be just as reliable as their neighbour's Camry and Accord.
"I can fully understand going with a Camry after having problems with a GM vehicle. Go ahead and do that but do not act like there is some magic formula that could make you forget about your bad experience and run down to your Chevy dealer. "
Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that there is nothing GM can do to win over customers like myself? If so then they may as well pack-in the towel and call it quits.
"Other than lacking nav the Malibu is on point and as I said it will be cheaper than the import competition. what else can Chevy do?"
Chevy could offer a longer bumper to bumper warranty to show they stand behind their product (it should be at least 5 years). Heck if they really want to cause a ripple they could do something like a guarantee where if the same major component fails twice in a 5 year span they will buy back the car. Put their money where there mouth is and give people a reason to trust in the brand again
"Contrary to what you are stating the MAJORITY of car buyers do not drive imports and they will consider domestic products."
And how many car buyers are switching to Toyota when their domestic is traded in? Last month's sales in Ontario showed they were a top gainer and the Camry continues to dominate the sales charts.
"I dont know why people like you cant accept that many people have no intentions of ever buying domestic regardless of what JD POwers and others say about improved reliability."
Awards are a funny thing. They're like stats which can be skewed anyway you want to spin it. Telling me that GM has the best plant in the northern hemisphere is about as funny as saying GM has the plant in my city. They should have the best plan in the world, period. Why break up award categories to such a granular degree? As an aside, an interesting read on awards:
http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/23/Autos/tipsandadvice/award_meanings/index.htm
"Some wont buy domestic because of image, others because of bluetooth, others because they got burned by an American car 30 years ago, etc. Those who worship anything designed and made by foreign companies will find ANY reason to not buy domestic and the actual products produced by Detroit are almost besides the point."
Well I got burned with a '96, your exaggeration not withstanding. The point again is that the Malibu needs to wow the customer. It's a step in the right direction but frankly this was the car they should have came out with 5 years ago.
"Yes Toyota is about to pass GM in WORLDWIDE sales, but not US sales."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100301548.- html
Coles notes version: Toyota US sales are closing in on GM when we look at cars. GM is lucky they dominate in Truck/SUV sales. What's totally remarkable about this is that Toyota can do it with just 2 brands (lost count the number of badges GM produces) and with less reliance on fleet sales to pump up the numbers.
"GM sells no cars in Japan which is the 2nd largest auto market so its kind of hard for Toyota not to be #1."
Not true. GM sells cars in Japan - whether their domestic market actually buys the vehicles is another matter. I will agree that there are probably trade and tariff issues in place which hamper GM's ability to compete in the Japanese market.
In short: the Malibu looks good on paper, let's hope the final product can deliver (because yes I do want this model to succeed).
There are two types who will not buy GM, hardcore import lovers who are completely biased and those like you that have recently been burned by GM. As I said, I dont blame you for wanting a camry. Go ahead and get one.
BTW, Toyota has three brands, not two. GM is cutting fleet sales (already mentioned that) and GM sells more midsize and fullsize cars than Toyota. Toyota sells more luxury cars and small cars. I dont see how that equals Toyota dominating the car market. GM has a much larger lead in trucks than Toyota has in cars. Check the numbers.
"Awards are a funny thing. They're like stats which can be skewed anyway you want to spin it. "
JD Powers surveys are not awards like the MT car of the year. I dont know how you "spin" problems per vehicle but maybe you can explain how that can be done. The vehicles with less problems per vehicle are more relaible, it seems pretty simple. BTW, Toyota and Honda usually place pretty high on JD Power Surveys so I'm wondering if you are questioning the results as they pertain to those two automakers.
BTW, I have an Alero and it has had some problems but 99% of the time it has started up and and got me from A to B. Most of my issues fall under annoyances rather than reliability problems. Now I could go straight to the Japanese but I'm not going to pay $3000 more for a Toyota/Honda just because it "might" be more reliable, especially when I am not crazy about the car's styling. The Alima is nice and it's the one Japanese car I would consider, but $30k for a V6 with leather, Bose and sunroof is outrageous and I wont get a stripped down mode just so I can drive a Nissan.
LOS ANGELES -- Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. has quietly settled a class-action lawsuit that covers about 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus vehicles that may have been damaged by engine oil sludge.
Details of the settlement, which allows for third-party mediation of sludge claims rejected by Toyota, have been mailed to 7.5 million current and previous owners.
[B]Critics contend Toyota has told customers and dealers too little about sludge issues. They say some customers took vehicles with dead engines to dealers who had little or no knowledge of the problem and often assumed it was the owners' fault.Unhappy customers had no remedy other than hiring a lawyer to go after Toyota. [/b]
Under the agreement, owners whose claims have been denied by Toyota may submit them to a third-party mediator at no cost for binding arbitration.
"This settlement breathes life into claims that have been dead for years," said Gary Gambel, a lawyer for plaintiffs who sued Toyota. "This is not a settlement that gives a few dollars to everyone. The relief is exactly tied to the problems and damages that someone might have."
About 3.3 million Toyota vehicles are susceptible to oil sludge, which can cause thousands of dollars in damage and require replacement of the engine. Sludge is gelled oil that fails to lubricate engine parts. It can lead to damage, often requiring a new engine at a cost that can exceed $10,000. Complaints about sludged engines have plagued several carmakers, but Toyota's troubles have been especially controversial in light of its reputation for vehicle quality.
The issue highlights a possible chink in the company's armor. Executives fear Toyota is growing too fast for its engineering resources. That could lead to quality snags and a tarnished reputation.
When a customer takes a sludge-caked engine to a dealership, there is usually a "clean-out" procedure. The head is pulled and a service technician tries try to steam out the sludge. If that doesn't work, the engine must be replaced.
Sludge can result from poor engine design; overly tight tolerances between moving parts; improper cooling; and poor maintenance by consumers.
Toyota insists the problem arises mainly when owners fail to change their oil frequently enough.
The agreement does not find Toyota at fault.
Damages that can be recovered include loss in value of the vehicle and incidental costs, such as rental cars. Past lawyers' fees, mental anguish and bodily injuries are not covered.
A Toyota spokesman said the agreement is not a defeat for the automaker.
"The settlement validates the customer support program we implemented four years ago," Xavier Dominicis said.
"The terms of the program remain unchanged. There always was a way for customers to appeal our decision."
Plaintiff lawyers disagree. They say Toyota failed to communicate the extent of the problem to its dealers and customers. Toyota's appeal process also meant hiring a lawyer, which many consumers could not afford. It costs nothing to file an appeal with Ates.
"The consumer only needs to show reasonable maintenance in terms of oil changes," Gambel said. "You don't need to prove where the sludge came from, or explain your driving habits. If you have oil sludge, Toyota pays" the consumer.
That may yet happen w/ the Malibu. This months Car and Driver tested the Aura against the CamCord, Altima, Kia Optima, and Sebring. The Camry finished 5th, ahead of only the Sebring (BTW the OLD Accord came in first). Now, these cars were priced out at $21k (Altima) to $24,500 (Camry), w/ automatics, so the ONLY ONE w/ a v-6 was the Aura (albeit the pushrod 3.5). However, the Aura was the only one w/ a 4-sp auto. Inspite of the pushrod and 4-sp, the Aura finished 4th, in a group of cars that were closely grouped (190-202 pts). The KIA got higher marks than the Camry for fit and finish!!!! While the Camry and Sebring (176 and 163 pts) LANGUISHED FAR BEHIND!!!
Remind me again, how close is Toyota coming to knocking off GM as the #1 car maker?
Well, that may VERY well happen. However, if this is what Toyota is going to put out in their quest for No.1 (the Tacoma also was criticised for body quiver and squeaks after a 40k mi test), and GM continues to put out cars like the Aura, the new CTS, the new Malibu, and the new full size CUV's, I don't think they'll be there for long, especially if auto sites and mags point out and people see poor quality.
Toyota is making more money than GM, Ford and Chrysler combined (when they actually made money rather than creative accounting to show profits).
I hope we will see stronger GM and Ford in the near future after the painful shrinking. I hate to see GM taken over by their Chinese partner (Shanghai Automotive) 4-5 years down the road.
jt
Now explain me why Camry sales increase every year? Where are those millions customers?
Its amazing how little press there has been about the Toyota sludge problem. Its almost like the press is ignoring it because it would damage their "Toyota does no wrong" mantra. Just last night I saw a segment on the national news talking about how the Big were desperate and the Japanese were taking over the industry. They said the Big 3's execs are nervous wrecks and are pretending to have confidence in their new vehicles. The reporter asked the editor of C&D "Are the domestic companies even capable of making a product consumers want?". Wow.
Those are the people GM continues to sell cars to.
Look I am not saying the Malibu is 'crap' or that GM is a terrible company. I'm saying they're going to have a very difficult time to win over customer's they've lost or have already been entrenched in the import product line. The Malibu looks good on paper, but its a question of how they can execute and deliver on reliability and dependability.
"BTW, Toyota has three brands, not two"
True if you're referring to the Scion line which is in the US. As a Canadian we only see the two lines which are Toyota and Lexus.
"JD Powers surveys are not awards like the MT car of the year. I dont know how you "spin" problems per vehicle but maybe you can explain how that can be done."
Simple. By hyping the fact that your car has won the JD Power award but play down the fact that its only on initial quality. I don't know about you but any car maker should be able to pass an initial quality survey. It's the long-term quality stats which is far more interesting and worthwhile to look at.
"The Malibu looks good on paper, but its a question of how they can execute and deliver on reliability and dependability. "
Even if they do, it will take years for that data to be available so you might as well say an entreched import owner isnt going to consider the Malibu. I agree with that. There are flaws with many import cars such as lack of value, lack of style, shorter warranties, etc. but some people arent going to consider all options because of reliability concerns. For those leasing a car the warranty should be enough to ease concern. The days of domestic cars not starting up are long gone and almost anything else can be handled when you take the car in for servicing. If I was that scared to own a domestic I would lease to try them out and then go from there once the lease is up. Of course import lovers will never be satisfied because if the car is trouble free during the lease period you will say "all cars are problem free for 3 years, lets see how it holds up after 200k miles".
BTW, why dont you check the pricing of the current Malibu to see how it stacks up against the Camry and Accord. It's ALREADY much cheaper so I dont see why you are so concerned that this new one wont be. The Malibu is in its third modern generation and its NEVER been priced the same as Accord and Camry.
The Malibu is head and shoulders above the Sonata. Its obviously better than the current accord as well, but we all know a new one is coming out this fall.
http://www.chevrolet.com/malibu/prelaunch/
And here are some real-life pictures (Check out Edmunds' own blogs too!)
People why buy Accords or Camries normally are ignorant about cars. Just my observation.
Also wondering: Does the LTZ model designation actually stand for "Lutz"?