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Yes, the marriage of two great ideas. So, while you are all debating which is best, the smarter approach is to realize that each offers a benefit that can be united together as a diesel hybrid.
Europe will be the first logical market for this, and then the North American market thereafter.
Here's a link you can all read to get the point:
link title
And for those of you that posted something to the effect that Toyota doesn't do diesels, just remember that they have taken control of Isuzu for a strategic reason... and that reason is diesel technology. Toyota already has the hybrid technology, but they are sorely lacking in diesel technology and they know it. Thus the Isuzu takeover.
Why all this? Because ultimately there will be diesel hybrids. So it would seem you are all correct in pointing out the merits of diesels AND hybrids, and the future will marry the two.
TagMan
They are just the FIRST COMPANY TO REQUEST IT since they hit their cap early due to, um, the fact that they are the NUMBER ONE HYBRID COMPANY IN THE WORLD.
The other carmakers will also complain when and if THEIR cars use all the tax credit because of SALES SUCCESS. -end
How ironic. Since Toyota is #1 Hybrid Company in the World it is very important that the citizens of the United States provide thousands of dollars in incentives to sell each Toyota hybrid cars.
What does the tax credit accomplish? Reduced energy usage? Reduced emissions?
A better idea would be for the government to give a tax credit to those who carpool, or ride a bicycle to work, or live close to their work instead of commuting 100 plus miles per day. :surprise:
That's why the diesels are in the legislation - they qualify on the "high mileage" side but not yet on the cleanliness side.
Toyota and the other auto lobbyists knew that to convince people to spend $1500 to $3000 more for a hybrid car would be a tough sell, until people LEARNED about the benefits.
Now that the tax benefits are lower and on the way out, SOME PEOPLE who are greedy and penny-pinchers might avoid buying the hybrids. Regardless of the reason, we need to keep more hybrids on the road. Thus the urging of continued tax breaks.
The tax breaks will also apply to the diesels in 2008 once they are EPA approved. I'm sure VW is looking forward to it.
Canada TCH taxi
it suggests the problem delaying their enthusiastic adoption by fleet owners : -
"he adds that the plate owners decide which model to purchase. These days, says Beck operations manager Andrew Whiteley, most choose two- or three-year-old Ford Tauruses, which sell at fleet auctions for about a third of the price of a new Camry hybrid."
Can you see how this works ? The owners pay for the cab, but it's the drivers who are on the hook for putting in the gas. Hmmm a letter to the editor is in order but I should think it's incumbent on Toyota to lobby city hall about the optics of not supporting the drive to reduce urban pollution except when it suits them.
FYI the Province of Ontario up here in Canada has implemented the Drive Clean program for mandatory testing of all private cars every two years on the dynamometer. It's a royal pain particularly if, like me, you happen to own several.
By the way, LARSB, I am laying off the SEGS !!
T2
Tom
2007 Greenest Cars
‘Greenest’ vehicles for 2007
1. Honda Civic GX
2. Toyota Prius
3. Honda Civic Hybrid
4. Nissan Altima Hybrid
5. Toyota Yaris
6. Toyota Corolla
7. Toyota Camry Hybrid
8. Honda Fit
9. Kia Rio/Rio 5
10. Hyundai Accent
11. Hyundai Elantra
12. Honda Civic
‘Meanest’ vehicles on the environment for 2007
1. Volkswagon Touareg
2. Mercedez-Benz GL320 CDI
3. Lamborghini Murcielago
4. Jeep Grand Cherokee
5. Bentley Arnage RL
6. Mercedez-Benz R320 CDI
7. Mercedez-Benz ML320 CDI
8. Maybach 57 S/62 S
9. Bentley Azure
10. Ford F-250
11. Dodge Ram 2500 Mega Cab
12. Lincoln Navigator
Source: greenercars.com
I may not buy number one. I have my eye on number 2. I am about to buy the MB GL320 CDI. Looks like a real nice vehicle for someone that wants it all. Size, Safety, Comfort, great handling, performance and good mileage.
PS James,
Good to see you on Edmund's again.
Hmmm, I would think that we need more impartial people around here, so we can discuss things logically, both pro and con... :confuse:
Just wait until gasoline is $3/gal again this summer and sales will be back to what they were.
...and Toyota has increased prodution/availability now beginning in 2007. They may actually sell more per month than before ( this remains to be seen ).
...and the overall automarket is likely to have a tough year in 2007 if forecasts are correct.
How many years old is the current Corolla? Any news of a hybrid when it is redesigned?
The good soldier Corolla got pushed back a year to next spring. It's ready and has been seen by owners and management since last summer.
I don't think that there is any intention to drop a hybrid system into the Corolla in the near term. One interesting news item last fall indicated that Toyota was thinking about a special 'brand' of vehicles called Prius.
.. and updated hatch due here in Oct 2008 ( for sure )
.. a hybrid minivan such as the JDM Estima ( ? )
.. a small 4 door sedan maybe like a Yaris ( ? )
.. a small diesel hybrid truck ( ? )
Now the EPA ratings are too low.
So if they've revamped the tests and the numbers are now lower, they still can be useful for comparison purposes, right?
"Your mileage may vary" is true and covers an awful lot of variation!
To those fixated on minimizing fuel usage they can go to extremes to use the Hybrid systems to maximum efficiency. In the GreenHybrid database there are about 10 drivers that AVERAGE higher than 60 mpg which is above the old ( outdated ) EPA City value.
Most drivers after a month or a couple of months find that doing this extreme 'economy-searching' doesn't meet their lifestyle and revert back to 'normal' driving.
A quick example,
.. 30 miles across a heavily populated area in slow but moving traffic with lots of lights on 4 lane major suburban thorofares at 20-35 mph? taking ~45 min..... or
.. 45 miles around the heavily populated area on an Interstate bypass at 70 mph? taking ~20 min.
One option gets you 55-75 mpg in fuel economy
One option gets you 45 mpg in fuel economy
The choice is up to the driver.
August 2000 is the start date (in Japan) for the E120 Series Corolla. The current E120 Corolla was available from 2003 model year in USA.
The Corolla is starting it's sixth year this month. We should have been getting the new Corolla in March like the rest of the world is...except it ran smack headon into the Tundra launch.
The good soldier Corolla got pushed back a year to next spring. It's ready and has been seen by owners and management since last summer.
I don't see a Corolla hybrid coming. Rather a line of Prius vehicles from a Yaris-size, 2009 Prius, Estima ( Sienna ) small minivan, to a new smaller-than-Highlander 'wagon' hybrid?
All speculation though. What is interesting is that the Georgetown KY plant is making room for something. The Solara is going away ( small volume ) and 100,000 Camry units are being offloaded to the Subaru plant in Indiana. This leaves 125K units missing in KY. What's going in there?
Will Toyota's next generation of hybrids, which are expected in late 2008 or early 2009, focus on fuel economy or performance?
When we shifted from the first generation to the second generation hybrid we enhanced substantially performance in many different aspects. On top of that, we reduced both the cost and size by half. We are currently working on the third generation hybrid, which will also have a much higher performance and good mileage per gallon. On top of that we are now aiming at reducing, by half, both size and cost of the third generation hybrid system. We are not yet at the stage where we can disclose data relating to performance or fuel consumption.
Will Toyota use Lithium-Ion batteries in the next generation hybrids?
We will change the battery from nickel hydride to the lithium battery, and therefore we would like to reduce the size of the motors and inverters by half, so the overall size of the hybrid system can be reduced by half.
There's been a lot of discussion lately over how long it will take Li-Ions that are safe and durable for autos. Will the batteries be ready in time?
Yes, I believe we can develop this battery in time. Occasionally I visit the site where the development is going on to see the trial model.
But were you worried by Sony's problems last year when Li-Ions in laptops were reportedly catching fire?
Of course, we're experimenting on the problem that Sony encountered last year. We are making sure that the problem can be avoided. Automobiles are used in different conditions. For example, cars are used in temperatures from -20 degrees Celsius to 40 degrees Celsius and are constantly exposed to high vibrations. It's extremely difficult to build those systems for automobiles compared with cell phones which are used in relatively stable environments. These difficulties must be reflected in the design.
link title
Is this a vehicle that will only be able to be purchased by the suburban elite with their own private power sources?
The suburban drivers get the benefits of PHEV's but the city dwellers get 'Tough luck'.
Boomer Going Green
WASHINGTON - At the grocery store, Lloyd Lachow buys organic milk and fruit. At the dealership, he shops for hybrids.
"It's a cultural thing," Lachow says. "I'm somebody who doesn't think global warming is a myth. I understand what science is. I take those things seriously and act accordingly."
Lachow, 55, is a baby boomer. The generation, born in the years between the end of World War II and the early 1960s, has driven every major automotive buying trend since the late 1970s, when boomers began giving up on Detroit's gas-guzzlers. They flocked to the small, boxy imports built by Toyota and Honda.
In the 1980s, they dissed station wagons in favor of minivans. As their wealth grew during the decade, they moved up to sexier and brawnier sport-utility vehicles to carry their growing families, their shopping bags and their boats. Along the way, they left behind the luxury of Lincoln and Cadillac for the foreign marques of Acura, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus.
Now, the boomers could be on the verge of making another major turn. After decades of indifference, they are starting to change their buying habits in response to global warming. And automakers are rolling out a growing list of vehicles to take advantage of the changing attitudes.
Environment-conscious consumers have choices beyond the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrids, such as other hybrids, diesels, high-mileage small cars with traditional gasoline engines, and ethanol-powered vehicles. Green drivers can find a cadre of subcompact, conventional gasoline-powered cars like Toyota's Yaris and Honda's Fit, which burst onto the U.S. market as hot sellers last year.
Hybrids, which even recently were viewed as a fad, are gaining traction in the marketplace. Toyota's Prius, of course, is king of the category. Toyota expects to sell 150,000 Prius cars this year, up 50 percent from last year. Tight supply had forced would-be buyers onto month-long waiting lists, but now the supply is more plentiful. Dealers say the automaker is intent on pushing hybrids - including the Prius - into the mainstream U.S. auto market. Toyota has sweetened deals on the Prius, enticing new customers like Joe Morra, of Rockville, Md., a government attorney.
And who are the happiest car owners of all? For the fourth year in a row, those who own a Toyota Prius. 92% said they’d buy the hybrid again.
And who are the happiest car owners of all? For the fourth year in a row, those who own a Toyota Prius. 92% said they’d buy the hybrid again.
Toyota Prius was not even on the list from Auto Pacific.
Of course, CR only surveys CR Subscribers, and CR does not represent the general population.
And CR just got caught lying again in their testing.
quote-
AutoPacific previously announced individual vehicle winners. The vehicle registering highest overall satisfaction in 2006 is the Lincoln Navigator Luxury SUV winning top vehicle, top truck and top Luxury SUV honors. The highest rated car is the new-for-2006 Hyundai flagship – Hyundai Azera. -end
Wrong. Wrong, Triple Wrong.
CR has never "lied" in their testing. They have made mistakes, and have taken responsibility for them in full and made retractions and corrections.
What you feel about CR has no bearing on the story I posted because this is not a CR test - This is what the ACTUAL owners of the cars said. Not CR. :shades:
And it just follows the path of every single study ever done on Prius owner satisfaction - it's always over 90% satisfaction.
Prius Rocks #1
Actually, Gary, the only one I can find is the ones which reference the CR owners satisfaction.....
HHHHHMMMM........
Is that the only one you wanted to find?
Vehicle Satisfaction Study Nissan's Rated Highest
They never have been the only choice.
Victim of cheap gas?
quote-
What happened? The price of gas fell to around the two-dollar mark from three; many people who wanted a Prius have acquired one (not unusual in the life cycle of a car); and Toyota upped the production of the much-talked-about hybrid. So supply caught up with -- and in some cases exceeded -- demand, and to some degree put the consumer back in the driver's seat.
What hasn't changed is the fact that the Prius is one neat little gas sipping car. It's solid, starts quickly even in minus-9 degree wind chills, warms up quickly, and doesn't emit the slightest squeak even in the coldest weather. It also carries the Toyota promise of a long and trouble free life at a reasonable price point.
-end
Supply as at least quadrupled in absolute terms. Where we used to get 6-10 units a month now its 30-40 amonth.
Agreed, these are only CR subscribers. If you were forced to speculate as to what ways CR subscribers differ from the general population what would you say? For instance, would you say that their education level is less than, equal to, or greater than the general population? The same question for income level and time spent researching purchases? Of course its pure speculation but I'd answer "higher than" for all three questions. If I'm correct than this group, while not representative, potentially has a more valuable point of view than the point of view offered by a truly representative cross section. I do believe that another difference that CR subscribers might have is a greater concern for environmental issues than the general population. I guess that could explain a Prius or hybrid bias but is that really a bad thing? With that said, CR does make mistakes but I believe they aren't intentional and their only agenda is to attempt to offer consumers the best advice possible.
I lost faith in CR so long ago I do not even look at their rag on the newsstand.
CR could easily survey owners of vehicles at random. CR makes the choice to only survey their subscribers. Why? The subscribers pay the bills!
I have no problem accepting the statement that "Toyota Prius has the highest ownership satisfaction amound CR Subscribers".
It is when people take this scientifically improper sampling method of only sampling subscibers and then try to pass off the results as being representative of the general population that I say NOT ACCEPTABLE.
These results are from real Prius owners who hopefully are not lying about their cars.
It's not fake data. It's not fake people. It's not fake cars.
It's real results from real owners of real Prius cars.