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Comments
Allow me to indicate the proper emphasis:
Last I checked, CR subscribers ARE a part of the "general population."
A survey based a nonrandom part of the population should not claim to represent a random sampling of the entire population.
Just because they subscribe to the same magazine?
How does that reduce the value of their Prius data?
Toyota Reports February Sales
03/01/2007 Torrance, CA
March 1, 2007 – Torrance, CA - Spurred by record hybrid sales, Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., today reported best-ever February sales of 187,330 vehicles, an increase of 12.2 percent over February 2006.
"Sales were brisk at both ends of our product lineup," said Jim Lentz, TMS executive vice president. "Setting an all-time record, the Prius hybrid led the way, nearly doubling last February's sales pace; while the new full-size Tundra got off to an impressive start since hitting showrooms February 5th."
link
Here's an analogy. Let's say you did a "scientific" survey of Americans and asked them what they considered to be the best source of protein and the result was hot dogs, hamburgers or steak. Now you performed this same survey amongst people that visit gyms and health clubs and the result was fish, chicken or maybe soy. Would you dismiss the health club survey as being invalid because it was not scientific or representative?
Which part? People who live in Alaska are part of the general population. Why not just survey people who live in Alaska?
Are subscribers of CR likely to be influenced by CR's recommendations? Have you ever studied pyschology?
Back to the Prius and the news article.
CR claims to measure vehicle satisfaction.
JD Power APEAL study measures how gratifying a vehicle is to own and drive.
The interesting thing is, NO PRIUS listed.
No PRIUS here!
Autopacific also measures ownership satisfaction. The interesting thing is, Lincoln Navigator had the highest rating. No Prius here either
Because people who subscribe to CR have a certain mind-set, which may or may not be different from the general population.
RE: Health club. Yes, I would not consider that a valid representation of anything other than the health club membership group. Just as CR is only a valid representation of the membership of CR. People try and use it to indicate the opinion of the general population. Maybe. Maybe not.
while the new full-size Tundra got off to an impressive start since hitting showrooms February 5th."
I wonder if he fooled his boss with that BS? Hard to be happy about 21.8% lower Tundra sales. Looks to me like they had about 3 big winners and over a dozen real big losers. We shall see if selling more Corollas & Prii make for a better bottom line. Toyota also keep the lid on hybrid sales by not breaking them out from the crowd.
Now if gas continues up over $3/gal and stays there all big rigs will become lot anchors.
At the bottom of the article they broke them all out separately.
quote-
The car began to act strangely. He was taking it back to the dealership when suddenly the car began accelerating even though he applied the brakes and the emergency brake.
"I could not stop the car. Because of its design I couldn't shift into neutral," Robinson said.
-end
Are the changes in controls in a hybrid dangerous?
The car (as can any car) either had a stuck accelerator or the driver hit the gas instead of the brake (a common problem in this kind of accident.)
And that crap about "having to call a team of Toyota experts" - that was stupid. There was no danger to anyone. Kdhspyder has already explained the safety of the high voltage system.
Just what we need - another story to create some false paranoia and anti-hybrid sentiment. I guarantee you some of the lower-IQ people at that wreck are gonna come away with the COMPLETELY IDIOTIC IDEA that "hybrids can accelerate out of control and will catch on fire and electrocute you."
Oh My.......so sad..............
And this paragraph is SO IDIOTIC:
The driver, Art Robinson of DuPont, told KING 5 News that he just purchased the used 2005 Toyota Prius this morning only after he was absolutely sure it was safe to drive. Two different dealers gave it a clean bill of health - one even certified it.
He bought it "only after he was absolutely sure it was safe to drive?"
Why in the name of all that is holy did he even have an idea that it would not be safe to drive? It's just a 2005 car like any other 2005 car, except it gets better mileage !!! Would he have been "worried that it was safe to drive" if it was a Cobalt or a Corolla or a Camry?
GGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, if you are referring to the HCH which crashed into a 7-11 that was posted on this website, that was a hoax.
This is the first one I have ever heard about that made a real news story on a real news website.
And this one is still to be determined if it was an actual stuck accelerator or if it was driver error like almost all "accelerating out of control" stories are.
Those Prius complaints are mostly "I don't understand my car please help me" and not "my car BECAUSE IT IS A HYBRID accelerated out of control." Those are different subejects altogether.
gary says, "As far as the HCH you referred to it was branded a hoax because you did not want to believe it could happen. You called the poster everything but a liar. No one with bad news about hybrids is welcome on Edmund's is the truth."
No, it was branded a hoax because my instincts are good and I saw through the falsehood. Like I said and you can look it up: Almost EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE of cars "accelerating out of control" is driver error. Cars have a myriad of safety features to prevent that one single dangerous occurence.
Toyota will be able to determine if that man's Prius was out of control because of a stuck throttle. If it WAS, it was NOT because the car is a hybrid: it's because cars (rare but true) sometimes DO get stuck throttles. Old cars, new cars, does not matter.
Repeating the same stuff to each other endlessly is not convincing anyone to reconsider their position.
Please take the next exit from this traffic circle and move on.
GENEVA (AP) - Fuel efficiency through new technology and hybrid vehicles will be a top theme at this year's Geneva Motor Show, with DaimlerChrysler displaying a lower-emission diesel engine and Toyota unveiling its Hybrid X concept that marries an electric motor with a gas engine.
The 77th edition of the show comes amid stronger concern about global warming and the environment, and a debate about auto emission limits in Europe. One sharp focus is on making engines more fuel-efficient and more environmentally conscious - while helping to maintain a healthy bottom line.
many of them are tire complaints
a few are "crosswind" complaints
a few are "gas tank refueling pump shuts off" complaints
There are 144 total complaints, and 23 of those are duplicates, for a total of 121 complaints.
121 complaints for about 107,000 plus 2005 Priuses sold, that seems pretty small.
Many of them are related to "engine shutoff failures" which were involved in a Prius recall and has been fixed.
Yes, but the Prius runs it's brakes through the engine CPU - required for regenerative braking purposes. This opens the possibility of the CPU killing the braking system.
I would expect that the emergency brake is a mechanical design.
I think people missed the point about the fire department concerns. The crashed vehicle had been doused in water, which conducts electricity pretty well. This is not the same concern as surfaced a couple of years ago, dealing with cutting people out of hybrids after an accident. Firemen are very safe in their work (they have to be), and I agree with their concern about high voltage current. I would not put my life on the line based on a (hopefully working) high voltage cutout switch that should have shut off the flow of current, especially when the wrecked vehicle is wet.
People should bear in mind that this sort of thing is not common with the Prius.
Burning Prius
One paragraph caught my eye:
Where a fully involved hybrid vehicle fire is encountered, copious (large and sufficient) amounts of water will generally be the extinguishing agent of choice. This will eliminate the radiant heat and begin cooling the metal battery box and the plastic battery cell modules inside the high-voltage battery pack itself. Fire suppression crews will not be shocked or electrocuted during direct attack on a hybrid vehicle fire, even if flames are impinging on the battery pack itself.
There are many other methods of maintaining safety listed on that page and none of them say "dont walk around in the water if you put a Prius fire out."
There is also a famous Toyota PDF for first responders.
quote-
A Toyota Prius rampaged out of control on a Michigan highway recently, endangering the driver as well as those nearby. It's the second known incident of sudden, uncontrolled acceleration in the computer-controlled hybrids.
-end quote
Hmmm....These drivers certainly must not have been Consumer Reports subscribers or they would be the Happiest Vehicles Owners.
You want me to start finding stories about "non-hybrids" which have "accelerated without driver input?" Because I can find some if you want.
Bottom line: cars sometimes accelerate "supposedly" on their own. It's not a "hybrid phenomenon" and not a "Prius phenomenon.
PS Can't resist:
Runaway BMW
Runaway Pontiac
Runaway Jeep Cherokee
Runaway Taurus (not)
If you do, this is not the correct forum.
Returning to the topic of hybrids I found this to be an interesting article about hybrids in USA from a German viewpoint. Why Hybrids are a Hard Sell
My opinion is that is great that hybrids have created interest, awareness and demand for fuel efficient options.
I think hybrids have allowed a business case to be made for even more choices in fuel efficient vehicles.
Look closely and you can see the automakers hedging their bets. Toyota is pushing into diesel. Ditto for Honda, which may not build a new hybrid Accord.
Perhaps hybrids may contribute to driver error, especially with drivers not yet familar with differences in controls and layout from non-hybrids.
Start-button instead of key switch, no neutral selection on transmission, etc..
Many people fail to take the time to understand a new vehicles features after purchase before they take it off the lot and begin driving.
Good point, but one fact remains:
The brake pedal and accelerator are in the same spot in hybrid floorboards as in any other car...:D
Same spot as an Audi 5000? :P
You are not serious, are you? Hybrid cars drive EXACTLY LIKE REGULAR CARS. There is no difference in the driving part - all the differences take place behind the scenes !!!
My 81 year old Granny drove my TCH and said it was just like any other car !!!
If you don't like your blanket or drugs or toaster or hybrid or recliner rocker or self-folding mattress, then post it on CA's site and you'll be the subject of a forum like this.
Look closely and you can see the automakers hedging their bets. Toyota is pushing into diesel. Ditto for Honda, which may not build a new hybrid Accord.
Agree wholeheartedly on this point.
I believe also that Toyota and GM are acting in concert, as the two leading manufacturers, to pull the rest of the industry behind them. I think Toyota showed it could be done and be done profitably. Ford was a natural 'partner' to spread the word but unfortunately they are running into other problems. GM's 2-mode is a competing system but very capable by all initial reports and possibly more flexible in that it can be used in a wider range of vehicles.
I now see that Merc and BMW are planning to add hybrids to their future product lines.
According to the interior pictures available for the Prius, I saw that the shift knob did show an 'N' position, which I would assume would be considered Neutral.
The On/Off button is in front where a keyhole might be but on the dash.
Mikko Hypponen, director of antivirus research at F-Secure, recently obtained a 2005 Prius from Toyota. Toyota (which also owns Lexus) said the Bluetooth used in the Prius was similar to the system found in the Lexus. Toyota cars use a proprietary operating system, not Symbian.
Despite re-creating hazardous circumstances, in which someone walks into a Bluetooth-enabled Prius with a Cabir-infected cell phone, the team at F-Secure was unable to infect the Prius. And when the researchers attempted to send the infected SIS file to the car, the Prius responded with a "transfer failed" message. In fact, they were unable to successfully perpetrate any known Bluetooth attack.
So no, Gary, the Prius is not a Microsoft Windows machine - thankfully !!!
No one has answered the question how do you remove power from the computer/hybrid system if something goes wrong while cruising down the highway? Soft switches do not remove power they only put it into sleep or standby mode. The proof being if you leave the car unattended for a few weeks it discharges the battery making the car unusable. I want to have the ability to CUT OFF the power quickly if the car goes berserk as it allegedly did in Washington this week. I don't think that is unreasonable.
PS
Same goes for a BMW that is out of control.
Same as turning off the key on any car.
Kdhspyder, do you know? :confuse:
Considering a hybrid vehicle? Now is the time to buy, according to Edmunds.com, the premier online resource for automotive information. There are four key reasons: -0- *T 1. According to Edmunds.com True Market Value(R) (TMV(R)) pricing system, average transaction prices of most hybrid vehicle models are at their lowest levels in history because the supply is finally beginning to exceed the demand. 2. For the first time ever, incentives are being offered on many popular hybrids. 3. Certain hybrid tax credits will be lower for those who purchase later in the spring, after automakers reach specific hybrid sales targets. 4. Gas prices have begun their seasonal rise. AAA recently reported that unleaded fuel is up 32 cents per gallon compared with one month ago.
This is a very hard business to be in. One view of the feasibility of the hydrogen economy using electrolysers driven by solar energy is expounded by rorr on post #142 at the Hydrogen Fuel Cars forum here.
T2
What does the tax credit accomplish? Reduced energy usage? Reduced emissions?
This is not an issue about if you believe are hybrids beneficial. Assuming we've bought into that (I have) and If you believe that the government wants it's citizens to convert to clean cars (hybrids_and they must have) and thus offers incentives, then it makes no sense to take the credits away from Toyota and keep them with Ford, Nissan, Honda and others that enter the hybrid market. Don't mix market control with environmental benefits.