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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Isn't "cutting" the hybrid premium the same as "reducing" the hybrid premium?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    larsb -Isn't "cutting" the hybrid premium the same as "reducing" the hybrid premium?

    Is a $150 increase in cost for a car equipped the same as last year a price reduction?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    does that need an answer?

    We already went over the fact that the "Toyota-brass-ordered" hybrid price and size cut has not been done yet.

    It will happen in the next gen Prius most likely.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    For my needs the CE and TCH are comparable. It fills all of my needs expcept I would prefer higher mileage. The Camry CE in my opinion is one of the best values for a mid/full size sedan. It has more features than LE models of only a few years past. I have absolutely no use for bluetooth and other fluff features that are forced with the TCH, however the increased mpg and lower emissions are valued.
    To obtain higher mpg of the TCH there is a very high price premium charged by Toyota.

    $19,620 Camry CE automatic
    $25,200 Camry Hybrid

    $5,580 Hybrid Premium

    $5,580 is the hybrid premium for this buyer, bubba......

    larsb-As the article points out, the closest in equipment to the TCH is the LE V6. So trying to slap a lowly CE into the conversation ain't gonna fly, bubba....... -end

    Camry CE STD Equipment
    Transmission
    Adaptive Automatic Transmission
    5-Speed Electronically Controlled Adaptive Automatic Transmission With Overdrive
    Steering
    Power Rack and Pinion Variable Assisted Steering
    Telescopic Steering Column
    Tilt Steering Column
    Suspension
    Independent MacPherson Strut Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers
    Independent Dual Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers
    Rear Stabilizer Bar
    Electrical
    12-Volt Battery
    Delayed Power Retention Operates Windows
    2 Front Power Outlets
    Portable Media Player Audio Pre-Wiring
    Braking & Traction
    Front Power 296-mm Ventilated Disc and Rear Power 281-mm Solid Disc Brakes
    Brake Assistance
    Electronic Brake Force Distribution
    4-Wheel Anti-Lock Brakes
    Safety
    Driver Knee Airbag
    Front and Rear Side Head Curtain Airbags
    Driver Airbag With Dual Stage Deployment
    Seat Mounted Front Side Airbags
    Passenger Airbag With Dual Stage Deployment
    Front and Rear Automatic Locking Retractors
    Front and Rear Crumple Zones
    Front Seatbelt Height Adjusters
    Rear 3-Point Center Seatbelt
    Front and Rear Outboard 3-Point Seatbelts
    Front Pretensioners With Force Limiters
    Side Guard Door Beams
    Trunk Anti-Trap Device
    Anti-Theft & Locks
    Child Safety Door Locks Located On Rear Doors
    Power Door Locks
    Vehicle Anti-Lockout
    Vehicle Anti-Theft Via Engine Immobilizer
    Remote Controls & Remote Releases
    Remote Fuel Door Release
    Seats
    Cloth Seats
    Driver Manual Lumber Support
    Front Dual Reclining Bucket Seats With Driver Side Manually Adjusts 6-Ways Total, Passenger Side Manually Adjusts 4-Ways Total, Driver Adjustable Seat Height and Adjustable Headrests
    Rear 60/40 Folding Bench Seat With Manually Adjustable Headrests and Fold-Down Armrest
    Storage
    Covered Lower Console Storage Located On Floor
    2 Front and 2 Rear; 4 Cupholders Total
    Front and Rear Door Mounted Storage
    Lockable Glovebox
    Overhead Console Storage
    Front Dual Seatback Storage Pockets
    Cargo Area Tiedowns
    Coinholder
    Instrumentation
    Exterior Temperature Gauge
    Tire Pressure Monitor
    Maintenance Interval Indicator
    Digital Clock
    Cruise Control
    Warning Lights Include Door Ajar and Electrical System
    Steering Wheel Mounted Controls For Audio
    Tachometer
    Interior Lighting
    Delayed Courtesy Light
    Illuminated Entry
    Interior Load Area Light
    Exterior Lighting
    Daytime Running Lights
    Automatic Headlights With Automatic On/Off
    Halogen Headlights
    Entertainment, Communication & Navigation
    In-Glass Radio Antenna
    AM/FM Radio With 160-Watts and 6 Speakers Total; CD Player; MP3/WMA Player
    Heating, Ventilation & Air Conditioning
    Interior Air Filter
    Manual Air Conditioning
    Interior, Design, Decor & Floor Covering
    Carpet Located In Passenger Cabin and Trunk
    Cloth Located On Doors
    Wheels & Tires
    Compact Spare Tire
    SBRP215/60R16 94V, All-Season Tires
    Steel Wheels, 16-In. X 6.5-In.
    Windows, Mirrors & Wipers
    Dual Color-Keyed Folding Power Adjustable Exterior Rearview Mirrors
    Power Window Lockout/Override
    Power Windows With Driver Side One-Touch Down
    Rear Window Defroster
    Dual Sunvisors
    Intermittent Windshield Wipers
    Exterior, Design, Paint & Finish
    Front and Rear Color-Keyed Bumpers
    Front Air Dam
    Metallic Paint (If Selected)
    Nothing additional needed except higher MPG
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    It's not a premium if the buyer is interest in options which are not available on the car the buyer wants to buy.

    It's a DIFFERENT MODEL of the car.

    Prices have always been higher on better-equipped models of the same car.

    A TCH is simply a "better equipped" version of the Camry.

    For the "better equipment" you get:

    1. higher cost and
    2. the value to the buyer of the additional equipment
    3. higher resale value at trade time.

    You are asking for an option that does not come for the CE model - higher MPG/lower emissions.

    To get that option, you must move up.

    It's no different than wanting a leather/NAV package for a CE car and finding that one of the lower models does not have that option package, so you must MOVE UP the model chain, say to an XLE, to get it.

    To get a hybrid drivetrain and it's associated benefits, you have to MOVE UP the model chain to the TCH.

    That was never called a "leather/NAV premium" in the pre-hybrid days, now was it? It was called stepping up a model or two to get the desired equipment. Nothing has changed - to get the hybrid option, you need to step up in the model chain.

    Someday, Toyota and others will offer "hybrid option" in multiple models of a car line. They don't yet. A hybrid costs more because you GET MORE just like you GET MORE when you buy the leather/NAV option on an XLE.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Here is a summary list of hybrid crash test ratings.

    Those driving the TCH will be happy to see it as the #1 car on the list.

    Hybrid Crash test Star Ratings
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Mercedes has 4 fine 2007 diesel options available today at a dealer near you."

    Not in CA or the other CARB states.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    Toyota only has the capacity to manufacture a certain number of TAH's per year, limited by the availability of the hybrid components. They could make a Hybrid CE just as readily as the current Hybrid LE or (in 2008) XLE. And they could make more base TAHs available instead of having maybe 90% fully loaded.

    But as long as Toyota can sell every $30,000 TAH they can build, they don't have any reason to produce $23,000 CE TAH models.

    The stratification of models, CE, LE, XLE, is just a marketing game. There is no reason that the couldn't have just one model with all the options (including Hybrid) available on that one model.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    from Washington Post Warren Brown- As for gas-electric hybrids, they are just one answer for better fuel economy, and not the best answer at that. Diesel-electrics and other electric/fuel combinations are substantially more efficient. In fact, if your company wanted to save money, gasoline, and tailpipe emissions, a better investment might have been in Honda's excellent fleet of compressed natural gas Civics. That way, your company would not have the battery disposal problem. Nor would it have the battery obsolescence problem. Your Priuse uses ancient nickel metal-hydride batteries,which soon will be supplanted by more efficient lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries. Glad the nickel metal hydride packs last eight years. After they die, both they and the current generation of gas-electrics will be next to worthless.
    -end

    CNG Civics are not sold nationwide so would not be option for all.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Two Wrongs and a Right about Energy

    -quote
    The second matter has to do with the deification of the Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid car as the answer to our fuel-economy problems. I've often commented that Prius praise primarily is puffery -- more hype than anything else. It is not that I dislike hybrid automotive technology. I strongly support it. But I reject the silver bullet mentality, the idea that the Prius is the only answer and that all other car companies that don't fall in lockstep with Toyota are fuel-economy laggards.

    There are myriad other alternative propulsion technologies and fuel systems. It makes little sense at this point to anoint one at the expense of developing the others. And so I congratulate columnist Robert J. Samuelson for knocking "Prius politics" in his op-ed column in The Post (July 25). Prius frenzy isn't about saving the world. It's about showing off, not curbing greenhouse gas emissions," Samuelson wrote.
    -end

    What do you think?

    I believe in the multiple technology approach. There are many correct answers, not ONE answer.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well it's one opinion and it's just that, one man's opinion, but I do agree with you that a multi-faceted approach is the best. There never be a one-size-fits-all solution to such a varied population as ours.

    Fandom has to be discounted. Looking at the vehicle makers themselves it appears that all, including Toyota, recognize that it will take a variety of technologies to reduce our fuel usage while keeping our vehicle options open. Toyota promotes the HSD heavily but it's only in the midsized categories. It doesn't ( yet ) try to promote it in the light vehicles and it has already said that it's not likely to be used in the heavy vehicles. Honda seems to be allowed free rein in using the IMA in smaller vehicles and GM's 2-Mode seems most capable in the heavier range.

    But, now that Toyota does have it's stand alone hybrid on the road with wider and wider acceptance it's only smart marketing to continue banging the drum for it....in it's appropriate segment.

    In my own case it was all about the money ( value ) and the willingness to support new technology to save even more money.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    To get a hybrid drivetrain and it's associated benefits, you have to MOVE UP the model chain to the TCH.

    Why is it so difficult to accept the fact that when you move up to a TCH you are going to pay a $5k+ premium? Why try to muddy the water with all the foo foo gadgets that are of little value to many drivers. Like was stated you cannot just buy a basic Camry with JUST the Hybrid option. I really doubt the person that buys the TCH is interested in the fact that it has a better 0-60 MPH time than the basic 4 cylinder. If 0-60 is important you would be better off with the V6.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes there is a 'premium'. Just going by MSRP's
    CE........... ~$20200
    LE 4c....... ~$21900
    TCH base.. ~$25900
    LE V6...... ~$24200
    XLE 4c..... ~$25200
    TCH XLE... ~$28000

    But there's also a 'premium' between a CE 4c and an LE V6. Why pay $4000 more for an LE V6 than a CE 4c? Won't a basic CE 4c get you to the same destination the same day most times. To expand it further why not just get a 5 y.o. CE 4c @ $10000 or so? It'll run another 7-10 yrs easily and it too will get you to your destination the same day as a new LE V6.

    The basic TCH is about $4000 more than a similarly equipped 4c LE and about $2000 more than a basic V6 LE. The performance falls between the two but the TCH has much much better fuel economy than either...and currently it gets a $650 tax credit for most buyers.

    If the buyer sees the value then he or she will choose it. That's all it comes down to in the end.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was only agreeing with moparbad on this one. If a person wants a basic CE Camry that gets the added MPG of the hybrid they will pay a $5700 premium. That is according to your price schedule. Again why is it so hard for those of you close to the hybrids to just admit that the PREMIUM is a lot more than most people are willing to pay. If someone wants the faster V6 they will pay the added price. That does not make the hybrid premium any less just because Toyota charges $4k for a V6 engine in a Camry.

    What is the breakdown in sales of the different Camry models so far this year. That would be a telling story. I believe someone posted that the 4 cylinder models make up about 80% of the sales.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    The breakdown I'd guess is a closely guarded secret. I've never seen such a figure.

    the 'premium' subject keeps going round and round and it will never be resolved because there really is one but it's not $5700 for the hybrid.

    The premium for the hybrid is $15000 ..over a 5 y.o. CE. Ridiculous you say. Ok so too then is comparing a base model CE to a TCH. The real premium for a TCH is actually $15000 because for basic transportation that's all you need to spend ~ $10000.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    One question:

    In all your years of car buying, have you EVER heard of anyone in the car selling or car buying business calling the extra money required to move up from a low-end 4-cyl to a V6 a "V6 premium?"

    Ever?

    No, I didn't think so.

    So then why is moving up to a hybrid from a low-end v4 now supposed to be called a "hybrid premium?"

    You see how nonsensical the term is?

    You pay more for the hybrid version of the car because it's a better-equipped car, just the same as you pay more for a V6 because it's a more expensive to manufacture, better-equipped car for a higher price.

    There is nothing called a "Leather Premium."
    There is nothing called a "Navigation Premium."
    There is nothing called a "V6 Premium."
    There is nothing called a "Alloy Wheel."
    So there should be nothing called a "Hybrid Premium."
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    You are right, it doesn't fit any definition of "premium", except to imply being ripped off (if the added cost was not justified by the feature itself. But, at least around here there is a premium in that the dealers will discount the ICE Camrys much more than a hybrid Camry, so the dealer gets a premium, but it isn't $4000!

    How about if we call it the "hybrid charge"? As to what it actually is, well that's a problem since the hybrid drive train isn't a separate line item on the price list. What exactly is one comparing to, then? So some people could say how little the charge is by comparing to a V6 XLE, and somebody else could say it's $30,000 for a typical TAH over a city bus pass.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    As far as what to call it, why don't we just start calling it now what it will be called in the car business within 5-7 years:

    The hybrid option.

    And as far as comparing prices regarding car versus car, the most logical way (which the hybrid naysayers refuse to agree with ) is to compare "similarly equipped cars" to determine how much the hybrid option really costs. And it's really on a buyer-by-buyer basis.

    Someone shopping for a base CE is not likely going to be shopping also for a base TCH. Most people I know shop for cars based on the price they can pay or the monthly installment they can afford - not by the equipment on the various model lines of a car.

    Someone might shop with a certain FEATURE in mind that they want to have on the car, i.e. leather/NAV/backup camera, but they need to know at the start that those options raise the price of the car.

    If you are shopping for a Camry, you just must realize that better-equipped models, as you move up the line, COST MORE money.
  • talmy1talmy1 Member Posts: 55
    "Similarly equipped cars" -- there's the problem. Buyer-by-buyer basis is true to a point, but lets try to look at it objectively.

    What could be a single model, Camry, with a list of options, has been stratified into CE, LE, XLE, Hybrid, and, I will ignore here, SE models. And the available options are set to encourage higher models (the CE is a bargain compared the the LE, but has very limited list of options). The 2008 Hybrid is almost an LE, except the Hybrid has automatic climate control which is otherwise only available, and standard, on the XLE. The 2007 Hybrid is almost an XLE, except the XLE has reclining rear seats and fake wood trim. And for the comparison should one use 4 cylinder ICE + automatic transmission or the V6?

    This is not meant to be a criticism of Toyota, because all manufactures use this confusing scheme.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I was only agreeing with moparbad on this one. If a person wants a basic CE Camry that gets the added MPG of the hybrid they will pay a $5700 premium. That is according to your price schedule."

    I think there is another factor that people are not seeing here. The hybrid premium is known only to Toyota (exactly how much the hybridization costs). Trying to do basic subtraction isn't correct unless we know the actual profit received from each of the options tacked on the TCH.

    Every option that is added to a vehicle represents profit to the manufacturer. This is why the TCH is only provided with lots of options, and why Toyota tends to build "loaded" TCHs. The added profit from the options is offsetting the cost of the HSD. Toyota would have to charge a lot more for a "vanilla" hybrid Camry if they simply offered it as an option - and that would raise eyebrows for those who are looking at the true "cost" of hybridization.

    However, I don't think Toyota would that - they would subsidize the cost of the hybrid components, as they did for years on the Prius. So it is far more profitable to do it the way the TCH is now produced - loaded.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    -from JD Power
    “High gas prices, coupled with consumers becoming more familiar with alternative powertrain technology, are definitely increasing consumer interest in hybrids and flexible fuels,” said Mike Marshall, director of automotive emerging technologies at J.D. Power and Associates. “However, the additional price premiums associated with hybrid vehicles, which can run from $3,000 to $10,000 more than a comparable non-hybrid vehicle, remain the biggest concern among consumers considering a hybrid. The AEI highlights several non-hybrid models available that help consumers reduce fuel use and emissions.”

    Consumers Interested in Hybrids and Flexible Fuel Vehicles
    The study, which examines consumer perceptions regarding hybrids, diesel and flexible fuel vehicles, finds that fewer than one-fourth (23%) of consumers say they will only consider a gasoline-powered model for their next new vehicle. Among consumers who expect to acquire a new vehicle within the next two years, 57 percent indicate that they are considering a hybrid vehicle, while 49 percent are considering a flexible fuel (E85 ethanol-based fuel blend) vehicle and 12 percent a diesel.

    On average, consumers considering a hybrid expect to pay approximately $5,250 more for the powertrain option. Acknowledging the increased vehicle price, these consumers expect an average fuel economy improvement of 28 miles per gallon compared to a similar vehicle powered by a gasoline internal combustion engine, when in reality, hybrid owners report getting an average improvement of just 9 mpg. Consumers considering a diesel expect to pay approximately $2,800 more for the option and expect an average fuel economy improvement of 21 mpg, while diesel owners report getting a 12 mpg improvement on average. Those considering an E85 vehicle are unsure whether to expect to pay more for the option or see an improvement in fuel economy, but instead hope the use of the ethanol-based fuel blend will help reduce U.S. dependency on foreign fuels. The availability of fuel or fueling stations is the largest concern among consumers considering a flexible fuel or diesel-powered vehicle.

    “One of the biggest challenges for alternative powertrains is that consumers often have unrealistic expectations for the fuel-saving abilities of these vehicles,” Marshall said. “And particularly with hybrids, actual fuel performance often doesn’t live up to the vehicle’s EPA estimate. There is a real need to educate consumers about the technology and its benefits. Managing consumer expectations and lowering the cost premium will be instrumental in accelerating acceptance.”
    -end
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Are more tax breaks for hybrids really what this country needs?
    Congressman, actor Rob Lowe push for plug-in car tax breaks

    And Rob Lowe is not the only one.
    quote-
    Sens. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Barack Obama, D-Ill., want to offer consumers up to $7,500 in tax credits to convert hybrids to plug-ins. Dubbed the "Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007," or the FREEDOM Act, it also would give automakers incentives to build plug-in vehicles.-end

    source J.D. Power-
    While actual hybrid vehicle owners tend to be older (55) than the average new-vehicle buyer and more affluent, with an average annual household income of $113,400, the study finds that consumers who indicate that they are considering a hybrid tend to be younger (averaging 43 years old), with an average annual household income of $88,500.
    -end

    Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    It's interesting that JDP and others apparently have been able to put numbers on people's expectations. I haven't heard these figures but I find them interesting.

    Unrealistic? Probably, in both directions; i.e. extra cost and fuel savings.

    Here is a key concept that I keep showing. At this specific point in time it doesn't matter which option you ( the buyer ) choose. At $3/gal and 15000 mi annually both an ICE only and a hybrid of the same vehicle will cost you about the same total money over 5 yrs of driving.

    The best value now is the HCH due to the $2100 tax credit at the moment. Over 5 yrs the HCH will cost significantly less to drive than a comparable EX AT Civic.

    TCH vs 4c XLE Camry..the same total cost
    Prius vs Matrix XR AT .. the same total cost

    The only significant factor as I see it is that the hybrids offer a hedge against future fuel price increases. If fuel is $5/gal in 5 yrs the hybrids will be a clear winner.

    However to minimize total transportation costs it's always better to buy a lesser vehicle, preferably a used one.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid?

    LOL that doesn't go very far in certain parts of the country with a family of 4, 5 or 6 after fed, state and local taxes are deducted.

    $100,000 gross with an 'effective tax rate' of ~50% leaves $50,000 or about $4000 a month.
    -$2500 Mortgage, taxes, interest
    -$500 gas on 2 vehicles for a month
    -$200 auto insurance
    -$500 utilities, cable & phones
    ZERO debt ( :surprise: ) no car payments...

    that leaves $1500 for..
    Life insurance, tuition, church, spending money, dance lessons, sports uniforms, misc.

    Oh yeah...Food
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Thanks for pointing out that just like MPG in reality, the expectation of higher hybrid option cost is too high.

    Is the diesel option on passenger cars $2800? Not usually. Just like the hybrid option for cars is nowhere near $5250.

    This is a study which measured PRICE AND MPG EXPECTATIONS, not reality.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    rhetorical question: "Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid?"

    Answer:

    Yes, because:

    1. they are taxed in a higher bracket and get to keep less of their money percentagewise,
    2. they are closer to retirement (55) and therefore are most likely in SAVE SAVE SAVE mode by age 55,
    3. as you enter higher income brackets, the cost to live your accustomed lifestyle goes up,
    4. tax incentives for hybrids benefit the $30K family just as they do the $100K family,
    5. some people (incorrectly so in my estimation but this is true nonetheless) use the tax break as a dealbreaker on what car they buy and end up buying the cleaner emission hybrid, which is good for all of us.

    If tax breaks for gasoline/electric hybrid can stimulate 250,000 buyers a year, then maybe tax breaks for plug-in hybrids can stimulate even more clean car purchases.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I don't think the purpose of these tax breaks is to reward Toyota's car dealerships and their salesmen. If it allows the dealerships to move cars at MSRP as opposed to invoice then that is exactly what's happening. If the buyer is actually getting a break its a lot smaller than he thinks. I say Toyota because they are responsible for the bulk of all hybrid sales. Making them the biggest beneficiary of this particular piece of tax legislation.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is exactly correct. When the tax credits got smaller the dealers had to discount the hybrids to get them off the lots. As was pointed out people that buy hybrids are mostly fat cats that do not need the tax credit and more than likely will not get it because of their tax bracket. So the only ones making out are the automakers.

    I have no idea why the Hollywood set is pushing for tax credits on PHEVs. There are NONE for sale in the USA.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    gary says, "I have no idea why the Hollywood set is pushing for tax credits on PHEVs. There are NONE for sale in the USA."

    Let me 'splain it to you:

    They are getting ready for the inevitable, which is PHEVs for sale in the USA. And you know very well that as long as things take in Congress, starting this early is a good idea.

    Whether it's the Hollywood set, the Green Bay set, the New York City set, or the BumFrap Louisiana set, we should be glad that someone is laying the groundwork for trying to get the PHEVs out of the gate fast when they do become available.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That is exactly correct. When the tax credits got smaller the dealers had to discount the hybrids to get them off the lots. As was pointed out people that buy hybrids are mostly fat cats that do not need the tax credit and more than likely will not get it because of their tax bracket. So the only ones making out are the automakers

    Using the word 'mostly' makes this an exageration, except that it might be true in SoCal. If definitely is not true in the working middle class/military area of SE VA and N Carolina where a $50-$100K family income is predominant.

    As you know all generalizations are wrong. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know way more family incomes under $50k than those above here in So CAL. Any family making $100k can afford to buy a car without incentives.

    Are you going to try and tell this forum that the tax incentives did not benefit the dealers more than the buyers?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They are getting ready for the inevitable

    Maybe in your mind it is inevitable. Until a reasonable storage device is invented, they and mainstream EVs are not inevitable.

    We had a $4000 tax credit until the end of 2006 on EVs. The major recipients were those that bought golf carts. It was based on the new cost. That was a waste of legislative energy just as the PHEV tax credit will be. Not to mention the wasted tax dollars.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Sure, tax credits for Golf Carts is indeed a waste of tax dollars.

    But tax credits for a road-viable PHEV which can be used for a commute by hundreds of thousands of US citizens is NOT a waste of tax dollars.

    If Toyota can do a PHEV Prius for less than CalCars, say only by 20% less, that puts the Plug-in option at about $10K. If the govt could tax credit half of that 10K, then it would certainly hasten development and increase sales.

    I know I'm going to be a customer for the first PHEV that comes on market, and I pay my taxes. So any tax break I get for being an early adopter I will be happy to get.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    In the past when some dealers in SoCal were selling the Prius at $3000-$4000 above sticker the tax rebate was a boondoggle to those dealers.

    However in more competitive areas such as the Middle Atl states where Prius were/are going for $200 over invoice( ! ) the tax benefit is far more beneficial to the buyer and to Toyota than to the dealer.

    Here on the EC a dealer selling at $200 over invoice might make $600 total from which he has to pay a salesperson $100. The buyer who previouisly got a $3100 tax benefit was by far the winner. It also allowed Toyota to sell more and recover development costs quicker. In this regard, at least here, the program worked to perfection benefitting the two parties having the risks.

    Even at the current reduced credit of ~$790 the greater benefit is to the buyer..and the manufacturer.

    Yes in this area that is exactly what I'm telling this forum. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Since the majority of Prius were sold in CA it is safe to say the CA dealers got most of the wasted tax credit dollars.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    True if most were sold in CA and all CA dealers had the infamous ADMs. I know a lot were sold in CA but I don't think it was more than half.

    I'm guessing that most of the ADMs were in isolated stores in SoCal. I don't believe that Longo did.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    CA has 12% of the US population. Would be interesting to know what percentage of all Prius sales have been in California. Was running around 26% after 2005.

    Hybrid now the best-selling car in Silicon Valley, but Camry, Corolla, Accord and Civic still lead nationwide

    quote-
    The Prius' newfound status reflects the continued greening of Silicon Valley. Rod Diridon, executive director of the Mineta Transportation Institute at San Jose State, and a Prius owner, listed sustained higher gas prices, the availability of car pool lane stickers for solo Prius drivers -- no more are being issued -- and the intelligence of local residents as factors in the Prius' popularity.

    "Are we ahead of the curve, or what?" asked Diridon. "The intellectual capacity within Silicon Valley is amazing," he said. "That higher level of education reflects a higher level of understanding of the terrible consequences of global warming."-end

    People in Silicon Valley are the most intelligent?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Funny I was sure it was New Yorkers... weird that they'd think that out west. :P :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    People in Silicon Valley are the most intelligent?

    Hard to argue against that. They put together most of the Dot.Com bubble that filched the country of billions from 401K accounts. A lot of 35 years olds sitting with millions in the bank while lots of 65 year olds wonder what happened to the retirement they were hoping for. So they can afford the over priced hybrids.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Toyota announced today a basic version of the Prius with less standard equipment and a lower price for 2009. The base prices of the normal model and Touring model were increased slightly.

    Increased competition and the desire to reach a broader market were cited as reasons. 4 years on the market probably had something to do with it as well. This should be the last year ( 18 mos ) of this model.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Hey, hey, hey, hold on a minute thar Gar Bar.........

    The people in charge of the dot.bomb companies did not control the choices of stocks those broke retirees made.

    It was not anyone's "fault" that the stocks were inflated beyond their actual worth - that's just how the market forces evolved.

    Cashing out the stock when it was high (which at most was done by only a FEW hundred already overpaid executives but most of whom had worked VERY HARD to build their company) was just a smart move.

    All those retirees who lost stock value could have done the same thing, and many of them DID DO JUST THAT.

    Similar to the stock market crash of 1929. Overvalued stocks are good for nobody.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That's a smart move.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Hybrids better for the environment than for your wallet


    quote-
    A study last year by Consumer Reports on six leading hybrids in the U.S. market concluded that each vehicle cost owners more than gas-only models, even when tax incentives and the saving on fuel were factored into the equation.

    "None of the six hybrids tested recovered its price in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership," the study said. (The mileage equals 120,000 kilometers.) The study noted that the extra cost of owning a hybrid ranged from $3,700 to $13,300 during the first five years, depending on the vehicle.-end
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The obvious flaw with that hybrid cost assessments is the limitation to five years, not the lifetime of the vehicle.

    Edmunds said this last year:

    Buyers of the Saturn Vue Green Line from General Motors Corp., the Toyota Camry and the Civic Hybrid from Honda Motor Co. would break-even within six years, Edmunds.com said.

    From: Hybrid payback

    And also this:

    CR's revised analysis shows that two of the six hybrids recovered their price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid provide a savings of about $400 and $300, respectively, when compared with their all-gas counterparts - as long as federal tax credits apply.

    About 23 months to payback the Vue hybrid option:

    With a hybrid option cost of only $2,600 added to the price of a Saturn Vue for a hybrid-electric system, GM of Canada has undercut the other hybrid offerings on the market, and that makes genuine savings from reduced fuel use a distinct likelihood, and quickly. Following the common equations then, GM is saying it will take about 22.22 months for consumers to recover the hybrid option cost being charged for a Saturn Vue Green Line, and that is less than half of what it takes for the other models.

    Oh my, who to believe, who to believe !?!?!?!?!?!?!?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Yes. I bought a hybrid for its better emission rating. Hybrid sells in CA because of its dual benefits - low emission and stabilized gas mileage.

    I would have preferred a Sienna van or a larger Tundra truck but emission was the final straw for my family.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Another flaw in most price vs gas saving analysis is the assumption that gas price will remain stable.

    Our local gas price went up to $4+ for a week or two before sinking back to $3.97 for a couple of months before dropping to the current $3.75.

    All the analysis I have seen used $3 a gallon over the entire lifetime of the vehicle. This is a critical flaw that renders the analysis completely meaningless. It is like someone computing investment return by assuming a wonderful 10% gain year over year and completely ignore market conditions, changing tax rates and annual inflation rates.

    As for the Saturn Vue "hybrid", initial reports indicate it is possibly a "mild" hybrid which means its batteries cannot drive the car without the help of the gas engine. If true, it is a disappointment but not a surprise given GM's continuing reluctance to do anything real.

    I have been a Ford buyer for years, hopefully Ford will see the light and seize the day.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    May I ask a question to hybrid owners in CA? Do you have a HOV sticker?

    cdptrapHybrid sells in CA because of its dual benefits - low emission and stabilized gas mileage.

    Numerous reports have appeared in the past attributing the ability to drive with 1 person in vehicle in HOV lanes as a major factor in hybrid purchases in CA. They even stated that used hybrids sold for more money than new if they had HOV stickers since new stickers were no longer being issued.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Tahoe and Yukon Hybrids- Sensible or Stupid

    Starre VartanWhat we need now is cars that run on batteries that we can charge up at night from our solar panel

    This is GREAT, I needed a laugh today! :)
  • hiwaymanhiwayman Member Posts: 98
    From a CA driver, it depends upon what you mean by the question. I personally do not have an HOV sticker. They were limited in quantity, and are only issued to hybrid owners who's vehicles get 45 MPG or better overall (Nissan hybrids, which is my car, do not). If you're asking if the state issues HOV stickers, the answer is "yes", but only to a limited number of people. The state has stopped issuing stickers temporarily because the quota has been met. If you were one of the lucky drivers to get a sticker, you are allowed in the HOV lane with only one person in the car.
  • hiwaymanhiwayman Member Posts: 98
    That's a pretty uninformed statement. Here in Northern California in the San Francisco area, the cost of living is incredibly high. EVERYTHING is VERY expensive. This is not uncommon around large cities such as New York or Los Angeles. My family has a total income of slightly over 100K per year. We do not take vacations. We drive old cars (except for our new hybrid, which we would have bought used had their been any used ones available) and we can put very little away in long-term savings. We live in a 50 year old tract house of about 1300 square feet on an unimpressive lot. We barely make ends meet. While our income might be impressive to someone living in the midwest or in the mountains of Virginia, it doesn't get us much out this way....I'll take the tax break, thanks very much....
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