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Is a $150 increase in cost for a car equipped the same as last year a price reduction?
We already went over the fact that the "Toyota-brass-ordered" hybrid price and size cut has not been done yet.
It will happen in the next gen Prius most likely.
To obtain higher mpg of the TCH there is a very high price premium charged by Toyota.
$19,620 Camry CE automatic
$25,200 Camry Hybrid
$5,580 Hybrid Premium
$5,580 is the hybrid premium for this buyer, bubba......
larsb-As the article points out, the closest in equipment to the TCH is the LE V6. So trying to slap a lowly CE into the conversation ain't gonna fly, bubba....... -end
Camry CE STD Equipment
Transmission
Adaptive Automatic Transmission
5-Speed Electronically Controlled Adaptive Automatic Transmission With Overdrive
Steering
Power Rack and Pinion Variable Assisted Steering
Telescopic Steering Column
Tilt Steering Column
Suspension
Independent MacPherson Strut Front Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers
Independent Dual Link Rear Suspension With Coil Springs and Shock Absorbers
Rear Stabilizer Bar
Electrical
12-Volt Battery
Delayed Power Retention Operates Windows
2 Front Power Outlets
Portable Media Player Audio Pre-Wiring
Braking & Traction
Front Power 296-mm Ventilated Disc and Rear Power 281-mm Solid Disc Brakes
Brake Assistance
Electronic Brake Force Distribution
4-Wheel Anti-Lock Brakes
Safety
Driver Knee Airbag
Front and Rear Side Head Curtain Airbags
Driver Airbag With Dual Stage Deployment
Seat Mounted Front Side Airbags
Passenger Airbag With Dual Stage Deployment
Front and Rear Automatic Locking Retractors
Front and Rear Crumple Zones
Front Seatbelt Height Adjusters
Rear 3-Point Center Seatbelt
Front and Rear Outboard 3-Point Seatbelts
Front Pretensioners With Force Limiters
Side Guard Door Beams
Trunk Anti-Trap Device
Anti-Theft & Locks
Child Safety Door Locks Located On Rear Doors
Power Door Locks
Vehicle Anti-Lockout
Vehicle Anti-Theft Via Engine Immobilizer
Remote Controls & Remote Releases
Remote Fuel Door Release
Seats
Cloth Seats
Driver Manual Lumber Support
Front Dual Reclining Bucket Seats With Driver Side Manually Adjusts 6-Ways Total, Passenger Side Manually Adjusts 4-Ways Total, Driver Adjustable Seat Height and Adjustable Headrests
Rear 60/40 Folding Bench Seat With Manually Adjustable Headrests and Fold-Down Armrest
Storage
Covered Lower Console Storage Located On Floor
2 Front and 2 Rear; 4 Cupholders Total
Front and Rear Door Mounted Storage
Lockable Glovebox
Overhead Console Storage
Front Dual Seatback Storage Pockets
Cargo Area Tiedowns
Coinholder
Instrumentation
Exterior Temperature Gauge
Tire Pressure Monitor
Maintenance Interval Indicator
Digital Clock
Cruise Control
Warning Lights Include Door Ajar and Electrical System
Steering Wheel Mounted Controls For Audio
Tachometer
Interior Lighting
Delayed Courtesy Light
Illuminated Entry
Interior Load Area Light
Exterior Lighting
Daytime Running Lights
Automatic Headlights With Automatic On/Off
Halogen Headlights
Entertainment, Communication & Navigation
In-Glass Radio Antenna
AM/FM Radio With 160-Watts and 6 Speakers Total; CD Player; MP3/WMA Player
Heating, Ventilation & Air Conditioning
Interior Air Filter
Manual Air Conditioning
Interior, Design, Decor & Floor Covering
Carpet Located In Passenger Cabin and Trunk
Cloth Located On Doors
Wheels & Tires
Compact Spare Tire
SBRP215/60R16 94V, All-Season Tires
Steel Wheels, 16-In. X 6.5-In.
Windows, Mirrors & Wipers
Dual Color-Keyed Folding Power Adjustable Exterior Rearview Mirrors
Power Window Lockout/Override
Power Windows With Driver Side One-Touch Down
Rear Window Defroster
Dual Sunvisors
Intermittent Windshield Wipers
Exterior, Design, Paint & Finish
Front and Rear Color-Keyed Bumpers
Front Air Dam
Metallic Paint (If Selected)
Nothing additional needed except higher MPG
It's a DIFFERENT MODEL of the car.
Prices have always been higher on better-equipped models of the same car.
A TCH is simply a "better equipped" version of the Camry.
For the "better equipment" you get:
1. higher cost and
2. the value to the buyer of the additional equipment
3. higher resale value at trade time.
You are asking for an option that does not come for the CE model - higher MPG/lower emissions.
To get that option, you must move up.
It's no different than wanting a leather/NAV package for a CE car and finding that one of the lower models does not have that option package, so you must MOVE UP the model chain, say to an XLE, to get it.
To get a hybrid drivetrain and it's associated benefits, you have to MOVE UP the model chain to the TCH.
That was never called a "leather/NAV premium" in the pre-hybrid days, now was it? It was called stepping up a model or two to get the desired equipment. Nothing has changed - to get the hybrid option, you need to step up in the model chain.
Someday, Toyota and others will offer "hybrid option" in multiple models of a car line. They don't yet. A hybrid costs more because you GET MORE just like you GET MORE when you buy the leather/NAV option on an XLE.
Those driving the TCH will be happy to see it as the #1 car on the list.
Hybrid Crash test Star Ratings
Not in CA or the other CARB states.
But as long as Toyota can sell every $30,000 TAH they can build, they don't have any reason to produce $23,000 CE TAH models.
The stratification of models, CE, LE, XLE, is just a marketing game. There is no reason that the couldn't have just one model with all the options (including Hybrid) available on that one model.
-end
CNG Civics are not sold nationwide so would not be option for all.
-quote
The second matter has to do with the deification of the Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid car as the answer to our fuel-economy problems. I've often commented that Prius praise primarily is puffery -- more hype than anything else. It is not that I dislike hybrid automotive technology. I strongly support it. But I reject the silver bullet mentality, the idea that the Prius is the only answer and that all other car companies that don't fall in lockstep with Toyota are fuel-economy laggards.
There are myriad other alternative propulsion technologies and fuel systems. It makes little sense at this point to anoint one at the expense of developing the others. And so I congratulate columnist Robert J. Samuelson for knocking "Prius politics" in his op-ed column in The Post (July 25). Prius frenzy isn't about saving the world. It's about showing off, not curbing greenhouse gas emissions," Samuelson wrote.
-end
What do you think?
I believe in the multiple technology approach. There are many correct answers, not ONE answer.
Fandom has to be discounted. Looking at the vehicle makers themselves it appears that all, including Toyota, recognize that it will take a variety of technologies to reduce our fuel usage while keeping our vehicle options open. Toyota promotes the HSD heavily but it's only in the midsized categories. It doesn't ( yet ) try to promote it in the light vehicles and it has already said that it's not likely to be used in the heavy vehicles. Honda seems to be allowed free rein in using the IMA in smaller vehicles and GM's 2-Mode seems most capable in the heavier range.
But, now that Toyota does have it's stand alone hybrid on the road with wider and wider acceptance it's only smart marketing to continue banging the drum for it....in it's appropriate segment.
In my own case it was all about the money ( value ) and the willingness to support new technology to save even more money.
Why is it so difficult to accept the fact that when you move up to a TCH you are going to pay a $5k+ premium? Why try to muddy the water with all the foo foo gadgets that are of little value to many drivers. Like was stated you cannot just buy a basic Camry with JUST the Hybrid option. I really doubt the person that buys the TCH is interested in the fact that it has a better 0-60 MPH time than the basic 4 cylinder. If 0-60 is important you would be better off with the V6.
CE........... ~$20200
LE 4c....... ~$21900
TCH base.. ~$25900
LE V6...... ~$24200
XLE 4c..... ~$25200
TCH XLE... ~$28000
But there's also a 'premium' between a CE 4c and an LE V6. Why pay $4000 more for an LE V6 than a CE 4c? Won't a basic CE 4c get you to the same destination the same day most times. To expand it further why not just get a 5 y.o. CE 4c @ $10000 or so? It'll run another 7-10 yrs easily and it too will get you to your destination the same day as a new LE V6.
The basic TCH is about $4000 more than a similarly equipped 4c LE and about $2000 more than a basic V6 LE. The performance falls between the two but the TCH has much much better fuel economy than either...and currently it gets a $650 tax credit for most buyers.
If the buyer sees the value then he or she will choose it. That's all it comes down to in the end.
What is the breakdown in sales of the different Camry models so far this year. That would be a telling story. I believe someone posted that the 4 cylinder models make up about 80% of the sales.
the 'premium' subject keeps going round and round and it will never be resolved because there really is one but it's not $5700 for the hybrid.
The premium for the hybrid is $15000 ..over a 5 y.o. CE. Ridiculous you say. Ok so too then is comparing a base model CE to a TCH. The real premium for a TCH is actually $15000 because for basic transportation that's all you need to spend ~ $10000.
In all your years of car buying, have you EVER heard of anyone in the car selling or car buying business calling the extra money required to move up from a low-end 4-cyl to a V6 a "V6 premium?"
Ever?
No, I didn't think so.
So then why is moving up to a hybrid from a low-end v4 now supposed to be called a "hybrid premium?"
You see how nonsensical the term is?
You pay more for the hybrid version of the car because it's a better-equipped car, just the same as you pay more for a V6 because it's a more expensive to manufacture, better-equipped car for a higher price.
There is nothing called a "Leather Premium."
There is nothing called a "Navigation Premium."
There is nothing called a "V6 Premium."
There is nothing called a "Alloy Wheel."
So there should be nothing called a "Hybrid Premium."
How about if we call it the "hybrid charge"? As to what it actually is, well that's a problem since the hybrid drive train isn't a separate line item on the price list. What exactly is one comparing to, then? So some people could say how little the charge is by comparing to a V6 XLE, and somebody else could say it's $30,000 for a typical TAH over a city bus pass.
The hybrid option.
And as far as comparing prices regarding car versus car, the most logical way (which the hybrid naysayers refuse to agree with ) is to compare "similarly equipped cars" to determine how much the hybrid option really costs. And it's really on a buyer-by-buyer basis.
Someone shopping for a base CE is not likely going to be shopping also for a base TCH. Most people I know shop for cars based on the price they can pay or the monthly installment they can afford - not by the equipment on the various model lines of a car.
Someone might shop with a certain FEATURE in mind that they want to have on the car, i.e. leather/NAV/backup camera, but they need to know at the start that those options raise the price of the car.
If you are shopping for a Camry, you just must realize that better-equipped models, as you move up the line, COST MORE money.
What could be a single model, Camry, with a list of options, has been stratified into CE, LE, XLE, Hybrid, and, I will ignore here, SE models. And the available options are set to encourage higher models (the CE is a bargain compared the the LE, but has very limited list of options). The 2008 Hybrid is almost an LE, except the Hybrid has automatic climate control which is otherwise only available, and standard, on the XLE. The 2007 Hybrid is almost an XLE, except the XLE has reclining rear seats and fake wood trim. And for the comparison should one use 4 cylinder ICE + automatic transmission or the V6?
This is not meant to be a criticism of Toyota, because all manufactures use this confusing scheme.
I think there is another factor that people are not seeing here. The hybrid premium is known only to Toyota (exactly how much the hybridization costs). Trying to do basic subtraction isn't correct unless we know the actual profit received from each of the options tacked on the TCH.
Every option that is added to a vehicle represents profit to the manufacturer. This is why the TCH is only provided with lots of options, and why Toyota tends to build "loaded" TCHs. The added profit from the options is offsetting the cost of the HSD. Toyota would have to charge a lot more for a "vanilla" hybrid Camry if they simply offered it as an option - and that would raise eyebrows for those who are looking at the true "cost" of hybridization.
However, I don't think Toyota would that - they would subsidize the cost of the hybrid components, as they did for years on the Prius. So it is far more profitable to do it the way the TCH is now produced - loaded.
“High gas prices, coupled with consumers becoming more familiar with alternative powertrain technology, are definitely increasing consumer interest in hybrids and flexible fuels,” said Mike Marshall, director of automotive emerging technologies at J.D. Power and Associates. “However, the additional price premiums associated with hybrid vehicles, which can run from $3,000 to $10,000 more than a comparable non-hybrid vehicle, remain the biggest concern among consumers considering a hybrid. The AEI highlights several non-hybrid models available that help consumers reduce fuel use and emissions.”
Consumers Interested in Hybrids and Flexible Fuel Vehicles
The study, which examines consumer perceptions regarding hybrids, diesel and flexible fuel vehicles, finds that fewer than one-fourth (23%) of consumers say they will only consider a gasoline-powered model for their next new vehicle. Among consumers who expect to acquire a new vehicle within the next two years, 57 percent indicate that they are considering a hybrid vehicle, while 49 percent are considering a flexible fuel (E85 ethanol-based fuel blend) vehicle and 12 percent a diesel.
On average, consumers considering a hybrid expect to pay approximately $5,250 more for the powertrain option. Acknowledging the increased vehicle price, these consumers expect an average fuel economy improvement of 28 miles per gallon compared to a similar vehicle powered by a gasoline internal combustion engine, when in reality, hybrid owners report getting an average improvement of just 9 mpg. Consumers considering a diesel expect to pay approximately $2,800 more for the option and expect an average fuel economy improvement of 21 mpg, while diesel owners report getting a 12 mpg improvement on average. Those considering an E85 vehicle are unsure whether to expect to pay more for the option or see an improvement in fuel economy, but instead hope the use of the ethanol-based fuel blend will help reduce U.S. dependency on foreign fuels. The availability of fuel or fueling stations is the largest concern among consumers considering a flexible fuel or diesel-powered vehicle.
“One of the biggest challenges for alternative powertrains is that consumers often have unrealistic expectations for the fuel-saving abilities of these vehicles,” Marshall said. “And particularly with hybrids, actual fuel performance often doesn’t live up to the vehicle’s EPA estimate. There is a real need to educate consumers about the technology and its benefits. Managing consumer expectations and lowering the cost premium will be instrumental in accelerating acceptance.”
-end
Congressman, actor Rob Lowe push for plug-in car tax breaks
And Rob Lowe is not the only one.
quote-
Sens. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Barack Obama, D-Ill., want to offer consumers up to $7,500 in tax credits to convert hybrids to plug-ins. Dubbed the "Fuel Reduction using Electrons to End Dependence On the Mideast Act of 2007," or the FREEDOM Act, it also would give automakers incentives to build plug-in vehicles.-end
source J.D. Power-
While actual hybrid vehicle owners tend to be older (55) than the average new-vehicle buyer and more affluent, with an average annual household income of $113,400, the study finds that consumers who indicate that they are considering a hybrid tend to be younger (averaging 43 years old), with an average annual household income of $88,500.
-end
Do people that make >$100,000 a year really need a tax break to provide the incentive to buy a hybrid?
Unrealistic? Probably, in both directions; i.e. extra cost and fuel savings.
Here is a key concept that I keep showing. At this specific point in time it doesn't matter which option you ( the buyer ) choose. At $3/gal and 15000 mi annually both an ICE only and a hybrid of the same vehicle will cost you about the same total money over 5 yrs of driving.
The best value now is the HCH due to the $2100 tax credit at the moment. Over 5 yrs the HCH will cost significantly less to drive than a comparable EX AT Civic.
TCH vs 4c XLE Camry..the same total cost
Prius vs Matrix XR AT .. the same total cost
The only significant factor as I see it is that the hybrids offer a hedge against future fuel price increases. If fuel is $5/gal in 5 yrs the hybrids will be a clear winner.
However to minimize total transportation costs it's always better to buy a lesser vehicle, preferably a used one.
LOL that doesn't go very far in certain parts of the country with a family of 4, 5 or 6 after fed, state and local taxes are deducted.
$100,000 gross with an 'effective tax rate' of ~50% leaves $50,000 or about $4000 a month.
-$2500 Mortgage, taxes, interest
-$500 gas on 2 vehicles for a month
-$200 auto insurance
-$500 utilities, cable & phones
ZERO debt ( :surprise: ) no car payments...
that leaves $1500 for..
Life insurance, tuition, church, spending money, dance lessons, sports uniforms, misc.
Oh yeah...Food
Is the diesel option on passenger cars $2800? Not usually. Just like the hybrid option for cars is nowhere near $5250.
This is a study which measured PRICE AND MPG EXPECTATIONS, not reality.
Answer:
Yes, because:
1. they are taxed in a higher bracket and get to keep less of their money percentagewise,
2. they are closer to retirement (55) and therefore are most likely in SAVE SAVE SAVE mode by age 55,
3. as you enter higher income brackets, the cost to live your accustomed lifestyle goes up,
4. tax incentives for hybrids benefit the $30K family just as they do the $100K family,
5. some people (incorrectly so in my estimation but this is true nonetheless) use the tax break as a dealbreaker on what car they buy and end up buying the cleaner emission hybrid, which is good for all of us.
If tax breaks for gasoline/electric hybrid can stimulate 250,000 buyers a year, then maybe tax breaks for plug-in hybrids can stimulate even more clean car purchases.
I have no idea why the Hollywood set is pushing for tax credits on PHEVs. There are NONE for sale in the USA.
Let me 'splain it to you:
They are getting ready for the inevitable, which is PHEVs for sale in the USA. And you know very well that as long as things take in Congress, starting this early is a good idea.
Whether it's the Hollywood set, the Green Bay set, the New York City set, or the BumFrap Louisiana set, we should be glad that someone is laying the groundwork for trying to get the PHEVs out of the gate fast when they do become available.
Using the word 'mostly' makes this an exageration, except that it might be true in SoCal. If definitely is not true in the working middle class/military area of SE VA and N Carolina where a $50-$100K family income is predominant.
As you know all generalizations are wrong.
Are you going to try and tell this forum that the tax incentives did not benefit the dealers more than the buyers?
Maybe in your mind it is inevitable. Until a reasonable storage device is invented, they and mainstream EVs are not inevitable.
We had a $4000 tax credit until the end of 2006 on EVs. The major recipients were those that bought golf carts. It was based on the new cost. That was a waste of legislative energy just as the PHEV tax credit will be. Not to mention the wasted tax dollars.
But tax credits for a road-viable PHEV which can be used for a commute by hundreds of thousands of US citizens is NOT a waste of tax dollars.
If Toyota can do a PHEV Prius for less than CalCars, say only by 20% less, that puts the Plug-in option at about $10K. If the govt could tax credit half of that 10K, then it would certainly hasten development and increase sales.
I know I'm going to be a customer for the first PHEV that comes on market, and I pay my taxes. So any tax break I get for being an early adopter I will be happy to get.
However in more competitive areas such as the Middle Atl states where Prius were/are going for $200 over invoice( ! ) the tax benefit is far more beneficial to the buyer and to Toyota than to the dealer.
Here on the EC a dealer selling at $200 over invoice might make $600 total from which he has to pay a salesperson $100. The buyer who previouisly got a $3100 tax benefit was by far the winner. It also allowed Toyota to sell more and recover development costs quicker. In this regard, at least here, the program worked to perfection benefitting the two parties having the risks.
Even at the current reduced credit of ~$790 the greater benefit is to the buyer..and the manufacturer.
Yes in this area that is exactly what I'm telling this forum.
I'm guessing that most of the ADMs were in isolated stores in SoCal. I don't believe that Longo did.
Hybrid now the best-selling car in Silicon Valley, but Camry, Corolla, Accord and Civic still lead nationwide
quote-
The Prius' newfound status reflects the continued greening of Silicon Valley. Rod Diridon, executive director of the Mineta Transportation Institute at San Jose State, and a Prius owner, listed sustained higher gas prices, the availability of car pool lane stickers for solo Prius drivers -- no more are being issued -- and the intelligence of local residents as factors in the Prius' popularity.
"Are we ahead of the curve, or what?" asked Diridon. "The intellectual capacity within Silicon Valley is amazing," he said. "That higher level of education reflects a higher level of understanding of the terrible consequences of global warming."-end
People in Silicon Valley are the most intelligent?
Hard to argue against that. They put together most of the Dot.Com bubble that filched the country of billions from 401K accounts. A lot of 35 years olds sitting with millions in the bank while lots of 65 year olds wonder what happened to the retirement they were hoping for. So they can afford the over priced hybrids.
Increased competition and the desire to reach a broader market were cited as reasons. 4 years on the market probably had something to do with it as well. This should be the last year ( 18 mos ) of this model.
The people in charge of the dot.bomb companies did not control the choices of stocks those broke retirees made.
It was not anyone's "fault" that the stocks were inflated beyond their actual worth - that's just how the market forces evolved.
Cashing out the stock when it was high (which at most was done by only a FEW hundred already overpaid executives but most of whom had worked VERY HARD to build their company) was just a smart move.
All those retirees who lost stock value could have done the same thing, and many of them DID DO JUST THAT.
Similar to the stock market crash of 1929. Overvalued stocks are good for nobody.
quote-
A study last year by Consumer Reports on six leading hybrids in the U.S. market concluded that each vehicle cost owners more than gas-only models, even when tax incentives and the saving on fuel were factored into the equation.
"None of the six hybrids tested recovered its price in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership," the study said. (The mileage equals 120,000 kilometers.) The study noted that the extra cost of owning a hybrid ranged from $3,700 to $13,300 during the first five years, depending on the vehicle.-end
Edmunds said this last year:
Buyers of the Saturn Vue Green Line from General Motors Corp., the Toyota Camry and the Civic Hybrid from Honda Motor Co. would break-even within six years, Edmunds.com said.
From: Hybrid payback
And also this:
CR's revised analysis shows that two of the six hybrids recovered their price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership. The Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid provide a savings of about $400 and $300, respectively, when compared with their all-gas counterparts - as long as federal tax credits apply.
About 23 months to payback the Vue hybrid option:
With a hybrid option cost of only $2,600 added to the price of a Saturn Vue for a hybrid-electric system, GM of Canada has undercut the other hybrid offerings on the market, and that makes genuine savings from reduced fuel use a distinct likelihood, and quickly. Following the common equations then, GM is saying it will take about 22.22 months for consumers to recover the hybrid option cost being charged for a Saturn Vue Green Line, and that is less than half of what it takes for the other models.
Oh my, who to believe, who to believe !?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I would have preferred a Sienna van or a larger Tundra truck but emission was the final straw for my family.
Our local gas price went up to $4+ for a week or two before sinking back to $3.97 for a couple of months before dropping to the current $3.75.
All the analysis I have seen used $3 a gallon over the entire lifetime of the vehicle. This is a critical flaw that renders the analysis completely meaningless. It is like someone computing investment return by assuming a wonderful 10% gain year over year and completely ignore market conditions, changing tax rates and annual inflation rates.
As for the Saturn Vue "hybrid", initial reports indicate it is possibly a "mild" hybrid which means its batteries cannot drive the car without the help of the gas engine. If true, it is a disappointment but not a surprise given GM's continuing reluctance to do anything real.
I have been a Ford buyer for years, hopefully Ford will see the light and seize the day.
cdptrapHybrid sells in CA because of its dual benefits - low emission and stabilized gas mileage.
Numerous reports have appeared in the past attributing the ability to drive with 1 person in vehicle in HOV lanes as a major factor in hybrid purchases in CA. They even stated that used hybrids sold for more money than new if they had HOV stickers since new stickers were no longer being issued.
Starre VartanWhat we need now is cars that run on batteries that we can charge up at night from our solar panel
This is GREAT, I needed a laugh today!