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Hybrids - News, Reviews and Views in the Press

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Comments

  • yerth10yerth10 Member Posts: 431
    In Apr-2009, some 21,000 hybrid vehicles were sold.
    Toyota - 12K +
    Honda - 5K +
    Ford - 2K +
    GM - 1K +

    I guess Hybrids are picking up. All expectations are on Prius-III.
    More important is automaker should reduce the Hybrid Premium.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    More important is automaker should reduce the Hybrid Premium.

    Both Toyota and Honda are in the process of doing just that. The new Insight II is the same technology as the HCH but the Insight II is about $2000 less than the HCH.

    Toyota added sticker discounts to the 2009 Prius of ~$500 to $1000.
    Then it added a $1000 rebate.
    Then it published the 2010 prices and these are ~$300-$500 lower yet in MSRP.
    IOW the new 2010 full MSRP on a standard model will be about $2000 lower than the similar vehicle sold last summer. Hybrid premium goodbye.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Maryann Keller, an longtime analyst on the business of automobiles (just Google her name), thinks otherwise. In comments on Thursday (Detroit News) about Chrysler's chances to survive, she says:

    "But Chrysler's future seems to rest on the politics of small, fuel-efficient cars and protection of union labor. Washington doesn't seem to understand that no auto company, not Toyota, not Honda, not Hyundai or Kia or Ford, earns a profit on their small cars."

    Toyota has publicly justified it's willingness to sell its patented hybrid technology to others on the need to recoup the huge capital costs involved. Maybe they have by now. I don't know. But we know that Detroit has long acknowledged their inability to make money on small cars. And other auto commentators remain convinced that the Prius has yet to make money. The issue is at least in doubt.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There was a $600 to $2000 discount introduced on the sticker back in June of 07 which is when I believe that the vehicles 'went positive

    There were hybrid enthusiast on this forum that claimed Toyota was making a profit on the first Prius sold here. I have to agree with those that claim it is an unknown. We do know someone is losing billions on the cars sitting in huge lots. How many 1000s are Prius? How many of those expensive batteries will be ruined just sitting for months on end without being kept charged up?

    I know my friend that has been screwed by Toyota finance on his Prius will never buy another Toyota. I suggested a Jetta TDI when he gets settled into his pastorate in Maui. I probably own the last Toyota I will ever buy. They are suffering from the same arrogance that has brought GM to its knees.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Jetta TDI would seem to be a poor choice for Hawaii....not enough long roads to get the full benefit of the 50+ MPG you can get at highway speeds, are there?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The point of a Jetta TDI on Maui is the very good supply of Biodiesel. Remember WIllie and his compound they buy only biodiesel for their all diesel stable. Willies wife drives a Jetta TDI as does Woody Harrelson. Wille gets the E320 CDI. All running on 100% biodiesel from waste cooking oil, that is refined to meet all current standards. You would like his operation. All off the grid for power, using only solar. Growing much of their own food.

    The big Island does not have the supply of biodiesel available on Maui at this time. Making it less desirable. Not many places on any of the islands for going in excess of 55 MPH.

    In all fairness the Prius was a good option for Hawaii. Too bad Toyota has such a worthless financial arm. Toyota will not allow lease transfers to other states. Sadly they owe too much to get a loan. And are not in any financial position to buy the Prius. It is on a 5 year lease similar to the SubPrime lending mess. Toyota needs to be investigated by the lending regulators.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160

    There were hybrid enthusiast on this forum that claimed Toyota was making a profit on the first Prius sold here. I have to agree with those that claim it is an unknown. We do know someone is losing billions on the cars sitting in huge lots. How many 1000s are Prius? How many of those expensive batteries will be ruined just sitting for months on end without being kept charged up?

    I know my friend that has been screwed by Toyota finance on his Prius will never buy another Toyota. I suggested a Jetta TDI when he gets settled into his pastorate in Maui. I probably own the last Toyota I will ever buy. They are suffering from the same arrogance that has brought GM to its knees.


    I made that claim in a number of different places including here because it has to do with the specific rules of accounting. That was my major in college many years ago but the basic rules haven't changed much at all. It has to do with accruals.

    That's why I said several posts back that it's an interesting discussion and the numbers show that the vehicle was profitable from the beginning, maybe not the first year but certainly from the beginning of this Generation onward.

    What Maryann Keller doesn't understand apparently is the concept of 'breakeven' or how the rules of cost accounting are applied to a manufactured product.

    I know that you have had a burr in your saddle since forever against Toyota. I haven't. Such is life our experiences balance out each other.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I was in a similar situation, and I found someone to make the payments for me on Craigslist.

    There are also websites which facilitate people picking up other people's car leases which they cannot keep, for whatever reason.

    It worked out great for me.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    Here's a recent Business Week post on the meager "profits" of hybrid vehicles. The word profits is in quotes because it may be auto execs, rather than Maryann Keller, who are skipping over the need to amortize capital costs when figuring profits.

    The Honda Insight, the Toyota Prius and profits

    Posted by: Ian Rowley on April 28

    "Ask a Toyota or Honda executive how much their respective companies make per hybrid car and you’re unlikely to get a straight answer. Indeed, it was progress of sorts a couple of years back when Toyota began saying that the Prius, which debuted in Japan over a decade ago, had begun contributing to the bottom line. Honda, meanwhile, prefers to point out that with the Insight it achieved its aim of reducing the cost of its Integrated Motor Assist hybrid system to below $2,000.

    All of which makes some of the claims in an article in Monday’s Nihon Keizai newspaper interesting. Without citing sources, the paper reports that the gross profit on the new Honda Insight is 300,000 yen (a little over $3,000) per vehicle—or a gross profit margin of 15%. If that sounds high, in accounting terms, gross profit equals the difference between revenue and the cost of making a product and, therefore, ignores lots of other costs. Still, the 15% figure puts the Insight on a par with a Fit compact in terms of profitability per vehicle. Of course, that’s much less profit per car than it gets from selling an Accord or an Acura but, with Honda aiming for 200,000 Insight sales a year, it at least helps shore up finances in these difficult times. (Honda today announced a net profit of $1.4 billion for the fiscal year just ended, but notched up a $1.9 billion loss in the January-to-March quarter).

    Also of note is that the new Prius may be less profitable than its smaller rival. The Nikkei adds that the gross profit margin on the latest Prius, which goes on sale in Japan in May for as little as $21,000, is likely to be in single digits this year."
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's the article to which I was referring.

    Honda's system is very elegant in that it's a low cost effective system that does a great job for small light vehicles. It has a smaller battery and a low-powered e-motor. It's a very good engineering design. It is limited until further notice to vehicles about the size of the Civic.

    The Toyota system is larger, more powerful and more effective for a wider range of vehicles. It also costs more with a larger battery pack and two more powerful e-motors. But the revenue is significantly higher for an HSD vehicle than for an IMA vehicle.

    The key question is 'What about the amortization of the development costs?' This depends solely on ... VOLUME.

    The direct variable costs are well covered in the selling prices. These are well known from comparable vehicles.

    Regarding Gross Margins, here is the latest info as reported by Forbes from 12/08.
    TM Margins and Ratios
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am sure that Toyota has some life left in them. I think Toyota is in for a fall. They are suffering from some of the "Too big to fail" thinking that GM has had. Though Toyota is better run than GM has been for 30 years.

    I think I like my Ford (F) purchase at $1.76 per share. I look for the Ford Fusion Hybrid to be a winner if they can get the parts away from the suppliers controlled by Toyota.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why would it be when you have so many good choices that get better mileage?

    Much has been written about the Insight, Honda’s new low-priced hybrid. We’ve been told how much carbon dioxide it produces, how its dashboard encourages frugal driving by glowing green when you’re easy on the throttle and how it is the dawn of all things. The beginning of days.

    So here goes. It’s terrible. Biblically terrible. Possibly the worst new car money can buy. It’s the first car I’ve ever considered crashing into a tree, on purpose, so I didn’t have to drive it any more.

    The biggest problem, and it’s taken me a while to work this out, because all the other problems are so vast and so cancerous, is the gearbox. For reasons known only to itself, Honda has fitted the Insight with something called constantly variable transmission (CVT).

    It doesn’t work. Put your foot down in a normal car and the revs climb in tandem with the speed. In a CVT car, the revs spool up quickly and then the speed rises to match them. It feels like the clutch is slipping. It feels horrid.

    And the sound is worse. The Honda’s petrol engine is a much-shaved, built-for-economy, low-friction 1.3 that, at full chat, makes a noise worse than someone else’s crying baby on an airliner. It’s worse than the sound of your parachute failing to open. Really, to get an idea of how awful it is, you’d have to sit a dog on a ham slicer.

    So you’re sitting there with the engine screaming its head off, and your ears bleeding, and you’re doing only 23mph because that’s about the top speed, and you’re thinking things can’t get any worse, and then they do because you run over a small piece of grit.

    Because the Honda has two motors, one that runs on petrol and one that runs on batteries, it is more expensive to make than a car that has one. But since the whole point of this car is that it could be sold for less than Toyota’s Smugmobile, the engineers have plainly peeled the suspension components to the bone. The result is a ride that beggars belief.

    There’s more. Normally, Hondas feel as though they have been screwed together by eye surgeons. This one, however, feels as if it’s been made from steel so thin, you could read through it. And the seats, finished in pleblon, are designed specifically, it seems, to ruin your skeleton. This is hairy-shirted eco-ism at its very worst.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article6294116.ece

    My feelings toward the whole genre. :P
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You and he should get a room. You are peas in a pod. He, as do you, had an irrational anti-hybrid bias before ever driving this car, as indicated in the final line of the story:

    Good only for parting the smug from their money

    Want further proof? :

    But saving polar bears, of course, is not the point of a hybrid car. The point is not to save the planet but to be seen trying. I saw a Prius in California the other day with the registration plate “Hug Life” and that’s what the car does. It says to other road users, “Hey. I’ve spent a lot of money on this flimsy p.o.s. and I’m chewing a lot of fuel too. But I’m making a green statement.” Think of it, then, as a big metal beard, a pair of open-toed sandals with wheels, David Cameron with windscreen wipers.

    So his complaints hold no water because he is obviously anti-hybrid.

    OH - I forgot.......

    Good job on actually finding a negative hybrid review. Those are few and far between.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good job on actually finding a negative hybrid review. Those are few and far between.

    When I heard it on the news early this morning I had to find it. You were the first person I thought of. If the Insight is noisier and rougher riding than the Prius, I don't know who would buy one. Pathetic cars. What lengths will HonToy go to, to avoid building a good solid high MPG, great handling car?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So his complaints hold no water because he is obviously anti-hybrid.

    He was also anti-diesel until he spent a couple days driving the VW Golf TDI. That is the difference. The more you drive a hybrid the more you hate them. Diesel vehicles are just the opposite.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You got it HALF right, Amigo.

    This part is right, Maybe:

    Diesel vehicles are just the opposite.

    But this part is TOTALLY INCORRECT:

    "The more you drive a hybrid the more you hate them."

    That's why hybrids get 90%+ owner satisfaction ratings, right? Because the owners start hating them?

    Puh-Leeze - don't attempt to insult our intelligence by saying something so blatantly false.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That's why hybrids get 90%+ owner satisfaction ratings, right?

    Not exactly. The 2009 Prius has an 8.8 satisfaction rating down from over 9.5 on previous years of Prius. This is typical of unhappy Prius owners experience. It only took about 5 miles in town for me to know I would never take one on a trip. Some people take longer to realize they made a mistake.

    We bought the car for its great fuel economy and nothing else. The car isn't cute, the ride is not what we were used to but we knew that. We test drove the Prius many times before buying it. But during our first long distance trip (400 miles) we experienced handling problems. The car wanted to move from side to side, I was constantly adjusting the wheel. There were also cross winds during part of the trip, which made things worst. Spoke to my local Toyota Service department and corporate Customer Service, they indicated the car was "Working as designed". My wife refuses to use the Pruis for long distance highway driving.

    Prius not for the tall folks:
    Might want to look elsewhere if over 6ft tall as I am. Ergonomics have become annoying - rear view mirror mostly in road-level line of sight and legs cramped by non-height adjustable seat. Marginal power up steep hills, and need to give lots of gas to accelerate onto freeway onramps. Otherwise, cruises flats well, very smooth ride, fairly quiet interior. You may wish the gas motor was off all the time since the electric drive is captivating. Car is well built, high quality inside and out, save the lack of seat / steering wheel adjustments. JBL audio system pretty good, not amazing though. At 6ft 3in, I would not buy this car again.

    Or those with a back they care about:
    I must say that overall I'm quite happy with my Prius-look, performance, gas mileage-but what the heck was Toyota thinking with those seats?! I eagerly took my brand new Prius on a 200 mile r/t roadtrip (one I do every month) to upstate NY. About 1/2 hr into my ride my back started hurting and my tailbone began throbbing. By the time I got back home that evening, I was in serious agony! I can't believe Toyota put so much attention into the technology-bluetooth, reverse cameras, smart key, the entire hybrid system-and the seats were just a mere afterthought! No lumbar support? Really???? Now I'm in the market for some seats that don't feel like rocks so I can tolerate my 80 mile r/t commute!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually you are wrong again, my friend.

    According to the JD Power survery that asks current owners if they'd re-up on their current vehicle the Prius is No 1 in the industry with a 93% 'YES' response. The Corvette is second at 92% and the Mini is third.

    Next case.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    You DO NOT want to get into a posting war with me on this issue.

    With a 93% positive rating, I could post 93 "I love my Prius" quotes for every seven of yours.

    Don't go there, Amigo. Just admit you got it wrong and we can all move along happily.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    93% of people that eat at McDonald's love the food. That does not make it worth a crap. Same goes for the Prius. It is a rough riding, noisy, uncomfortable, poor handling excuse for a car. Fine for a flatlander that never exceeds 55 MPH. Nothing more good can be said about it. Same goes for the new Honda Insight. I can exchange opinions with you and our salesman friend till hell freezes over. You are fighting a losing battle. The few people that want a hybrid have them and their day in the sun is gone.

    Barry Obama and his ignorant minions will not force me to own or drive one. They have put the mark in the sand and the battle is yet to come.

    PS
    93% of what. Some poll on a rag like CR I suppose. I will accept the Edmund's owners and they are not so easily bullied. The Prius ratings have gone down. The 2009 ratings are the lowest since it was introduced. Toyota has gone in the crapper also.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    How did your reactionary political views get brought to light in this thread about hybrid cars????

    What has one to do with another?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very simple. There are people in this country that have a lot of pull that will not be happy till we are all driving the same funky POC hybrid like puppets in a Soviet style regime. You may like the direction our President is headed, taking over banks and auto makers. I don't. I don't like his direction for the future of the automobile even a little bit.

    That includes your very repressive views on BOF SUVs and PU trucks.

    However the discussion got sidetracked with a very funny review of the Insight by our friend in the UK. He does not like the direction the auto industry is headed either. At least in the EU the people have a choice of vehicles that we do not. I would downsize for most of my running around. NEVER in a hybrid. EV or Diesel YES, overly complex hybrid NO.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    As long as you keep the facts straight and don't embellish them in order to argue an untenable positon then I have no problem with anyone's opinion. In fact it's none of my business.

    It's the perversion of fact and truth that annoys the crap out of me. To wit...

    You may like the direction our President is headed, taking over banks and auto makers. I don't. I don't like his direction for the future of the automobile even a little bit.

    This was done in the last Administration. Your mistaken impressions are based on false premises.

    As regards the new vehicle lineup, you simply don't understand the new regs and you're shooting from the hip with no facts combined with erroneous beliefs. It's no wonder that you're almost always wrong. Research my friend. It'll do wonders for your outlook.

    I have no views on the BOF segment at all except what the buying public shows me, except what the monthly sales stats show since 2001, except what the CEOs of Ford and GM told the public last year.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have no views on the BOF segment at all except what the buying public shows me

    And you base your opinions on the buying public? The same ignorant souls that pay big bucks for a Prius when gas prices are high, and don't even look at them when gas is cheap. My opinion is now and will remain that well made BOF vehicles are safer and inherently longer lasting.

    Research my friend. It'll do wonders for your outlook.

    I do a lot of research. Sometimes your statements are correct and sometimes you spin the facts to say what you want to believe. The poor rating of the Scion tC comes to mind.

    I did not defend what our past administration did in regards to the TARP money squandered on banks and the auto industry. I listened to hope and change for a year from President Obama, and get exactly the same politics as usual since he has been sworn in. Add to that he has alienated most of the people that still have enough money to get things rolling again. I look for a combo of FDR and Carter making a small recession into a BIG one.

    Getting back to the Insight or any other hybrid in that class. I will reconsider my view when I find one that will take me from my place of shopping to my home, at the speed limit without the engine screaming up over 3000 RPM. Same reason I hate 4 cylinder gas engines. They do not have enough power except for flatlanders. An engine that will not haul my vehicle from Costco to home without going over 2500 RPM at 70 MPH is inadequate for my needs.
  • lzclzc Member Posts: 483
    I happen to agree with several of those criticisms of the Prius. It's seats are uncomfortable. It's freeway handling uncertain, why I guess Toyota introduced a touring version with wider tires (and fewer mpg).

    But this is a Camry hybrid msg board, no? The difference between the regular Camry and the hybrid version, excluding better gas mileage, is very small. Whether it pencils out on a cost-benefit basis is another question. The hybrid Camry delivers better gas mileage in a car that is the equal of the regular version.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually it's a general hybrid msg board. At least that's how I got here.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Let's not turn this discussion into something it's not. There's the off-topic forum where you can get into politics if you want.

    And PLEASE stop making these things personal. It's hard enough to keep things from spiraling out of control with disagreements about cars. Once you start throwing in personal comments about each other, it's like throwing gasoline on the fire.

    Thanks for your cooperation and participation
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Anyone saying a Prius is a "piece of crap" is completely ignoring reality.

    Certain people might not like the ride, or the seats, or the road noise (which has been measured by multiple car testers as QUIET), but those are the RARE few exceptions to the rule.

    By rule, a VAST, HUGELY CORRECT majority of Prius owners love their car because of the car. It's a great car. Almost every review on the internet sings it's praises.

    Is it the perfect car? No.
    Is it a "driver's car" for people who like speed and the childish delight of taking a corner about 40 Mph faster than the recommended speed? No.
    Is it a great car for someone who spends all day climbing up and down hills at 70 MPH? No.

    But for what it is: A midsize car with great storage space, great mileage, great reliability, great resale value, great insulation against rising gas prices, it is a fabulous car.
  • familydadx4familydadx4 Member Posts: 26
    Larsb:

    I have been following this and decided to jump in.

    Anyone saying a Prius is a "piece of crap" is completely ignoring reality.

    Not true. What they are saying is that for them, the Prius is a POC. Maybe, it's your dream car. Good enough. For others, it's a POC. That's not ignoring reality, that's expressing an opinion.

    Certain people might not like the ride, or the seats, or the road noise (which has been measured by multiple car testers as QUIET), but those are the RARE few exceptions to the rule.

    The first part of your statement is fine but then you add your opinion by adding "RARE". I beg to differ. I know several folks, myself included, who have driven the hybrids (civic, insight, prius) and don't like them. In fact, I don't know anyone who has driven them and likes them. Maybe I know all the rare few exceptions?

    Is it a "driver's car" for people who like speed and the childish delight of taking a corner about 40 Mph faster than the recommended speed? No.

    Once again you are inserting your opinion and making an attack on anyone who disagrees. Not exactly objective, or likely to sway anyone to your side.

    But for what it is: A midsize car with great storage space, great mileage, great reliability, great resale value, great insulation against rising gas prices, it is a fabulous car.

    For you, it's all those things. That's great. Please don't attempt to put anyone down who doesn't agree with your statements. It detracts from them. Alot.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, thanks for your input. You missed the tone of my post completely. Many of the things you attribute to "my opinion" are indeed veiled facts.

    Not true. What they are saying is that for them, the Prius is a POC. Maybe, it's your dream car. Good enough. For others, it's a POC. That's not ignoring reality, that's expressing an opinion.

    Disliking a particular car, disliking how it rides or handles, does not turn the car into a "piece of crap." It turns it into a "car you don't like." That's all. Every bit of data available shows the Prius, with exceptions like every other GOOD car, to have good build quality, satisfied owners, and high reliability. That's not opinion, but again facts.

    The first part of your statement is fine but then you add your opinion by adding "RARE". I beg to differ. I know several folks, myself included, who have driven the hybrids (civic, insight, prius) and don't like them. In fact, I don't know anyone who has driven them and likes them. Maybe I know all the rare few exceptions?


    Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that I can match thousands of happy owners against your "few" people anytime you want. So, yes, it's RARE.
    But Kdh can better reply to this, as a car salesman. We should defer to his experience: How many people come in and test drive a Prius and then walk away because they don't like the car? My guess is not many. Most who don't buy after a test drive, I would bet, just want a larger or smaller car based on needs or budgets and just wanted to try a Prius just for the sake of trying it.

    But for what it is: A midsize car with great storage space, great mileage, great reliability, great resale value, great insulation against rising gas prices, it is a fabulous car.


    Hard to find anything online or anywhere else that in anything other than small percentages disagrees with the points in that statement.

    It might be an opinion, but it's based on facts of seeing, meeting, talking to, and communicating with hundreds of Prius owners over the past 5 years, driving and riding in multiple Priuses, and reading virtually every online review posted. A well-educated opinion to say the least.

    The Prius is not for everyone. But for what it does, it does well. It's not a piece of crap by any definition.
  • familydadx4familydadx4 Member Posts: 26
    Larsb:

    You're attempting to take your opinion and make them fact. Thinly veiled facts? Puulease! It's either fact, or opinion, there is no gray.

    Disliking a particular car, disliking how it rides or handles, does not turn the car into a "piece of crap." It turns it into a "car you don't like." That's all.

    Now you are trying this into a semantics game? In my opinion, POC equals a car I don't like. Maybe, this is not your definition. Maybe, it's not websters. It is mine. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)

    Every bit of data available shows the Prius, with exceptions like every other GOOD car, to have good build quality, satisfied owners, and high reliability.

    Again, you offer nothing but opinion here (especially if you poll current prius owners). What data? I still don't like it. I still think it's a POC. It definitely ain't for me. It's hideous and over-priced. It can't get out of it's own way. Again, my story and I'm sticking to it.

    But Kdh can better reply to this, as a car salesman. We should defer to his experience: How many people come in and test drive a Prius and then walk away because they don't like the car?

    You're not using a proper sample here. Don't you think the majority of people going into a showroom to test a Prius already like it? They're researched it, talked to current owners, etc.. They're already partially\completely sold before they enter the dealership. You could say this about most cars. A better way to express this might be to divide the total number of cars on the road by the number of Prius's (sp?). How many people don't bother to enter the showroom because they don't like it?

    The Prius is not for everyone. But for what it does, it does well. It's not a piece of crap by any definition.

    Again, you offer an opinion.

    Apparently, you love your Prius. There are a few thousand others like you out there. That's ok. Drive well.

    For me, and for a few of us "rare" folk out there, it's a POC. At least I can admit it's my opinion (and my definition).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For me, and for a few of us "rare" folk out there, it's a POC. At least I can admit it's my opinion (and my definition).

    And of course I do agree with you. I use the term POC very loosely to describe most anything I don't like. The hybrids and the Prius in particular. That does not mean that I have not recommended it to a narrow band of friends with a need that it fits. I find it fits a very narrow spectrum of the car buying public.

    Update on my pastor friend headed to Maui. I suggested he go to Toyota finance and be a little more aggressive in explaining his situation. Also not to talk to anyone below the top person. He did and they offered a very favorable finance package that got him out of that horrible lease. He will be taking the Prius to Maui. Which is about as good as he can get for over there.

    Not as good as a Jetta TDI, but he already has the Prius.
  • familydadx4familydadx4 Member Posts: 26
    Gagrice:

    I've been looking at the Jetta tdi. Very nice. It is just a little beyond my price point. Although, I'm very tempted. I've decided to wait until the end of the year. I'm hoping the new Golf tdi comes in sub 20k. Any idea if the Golf tdi will hit my price point, and if it will come in before year end? Unfortunately, VW is usually mysterious about this stuff.

    Glad to hear you minister friend is doing well. The Prius would be a good choice for the Islands. Top speed over there is 45 mph?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    familydadx4 says, "Again, you offer nothing but opinion here (especially if you poll current prius owners). What data? I still don't like it. I still think it's a POC. It definitely ain't for me. It's hideous and over-priced. It can't get out of it's own way. Again, my story and I'm sticking to it."

    What data? Are you kidding me? Are you new to the hybrid world?

    The Prius has won multiple "Car of the Year" awards, has been rated as one of the best-liked and most reliable car by every owner survey ever published, ANYWHERE, and has turned the whole car world on it's ear.

    Hideous and over-priced STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT A PIECE OF CRAP. Just stop saying that - it's ridiculous.

    "Piece of Crap" - usually defined as something which is built poorly, falls apart, does not perform it's designed duties, etc. In the car world, it would be defined as a car which breaks down a lot or is in the shop a lot, or is poorly built, or which has cheap components which break easily and frequently, or otherwise is a pain to own and maintain.

    And I can tell you WITH 100% CERTAINTY that a Prius does not fit any of those definitions.

    You can dislike it all you want - but a piece of crap, it's not. Give it up.

    Awards:

    * 1997–98 Car of the Year Japan[146]
    * 2003 Scientific American names Toyota Motor Corporation as "Business Leader of the Year" ("Scientific American 50"; December, 2003) for its singular accomplishment in the commercialization of affordable hybrid cars.
    * Motor Trend Car of the Year, 2004[19]
    * Car and Driver magazine's Ten Best list for 2004.
    * North American Car of the Year award for 2004. Nominated in 2001.
    * International Engine of the Year for 2004.
    * "Best Engineered Vehicle for 2004" by SAE's Automotive Engineering International magazine.[147]
    * 2005 European Car of the Year (406 points, ahead of Citroën C4 with 267 points and Ford Focus II with 228).[148]
    * 2006 EnerGuide Award (Midsize)[149]
    * 2006 Intellichoice Best Overall Value of the Year, Midsize[150]
    * 2007 Intellichoice Best in Class Winner :Best Retained Value, Lowest Fuel, Lowest Operating Costs, Lowest Ownership Costs[151]
    * Swiss government named Toyota Prius the world's greenest car in a draft study of over 6,000 cars.[152]
    * Green Engine of the Year 2008 from International Engine of the Year Awards.[153]
    * 2008 Nominated for WhatGreenCar.com Car of the Year Awards 2008, shortlisted for the UK's top Green Car Awards
    * JD Power and Associates "Most Dependable Compact Car" for 2008[154] and 2009[155]

    Prius

    Toyota Prius buyers are the most satisfied vehicle owners, according to Consumer Reports testers and consumers who rated vehicle reliability in a new study released on Thursday. The Chevrolet Corvette took 2nd place in the satisfaction poll.

    Perfect car? Of course not. Are you allowed to dislike it. OF COURSE YOU ARE.

    But a piece of crap? No Flippin Way.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Again, you offer nothing but opinion here (especially if you poll current prius owners). What data? I still don't like it. I still think it's a POC. It definitely ain't for me. It's hideous and over-priced. It can't get out of it's own way. Again, my story and I'm sticking to it.

    Larsb was assuming that you would have been aware of the reliability ratings and JD Power surveys concerning the Prius. This is the data and facts that show that it's not a POC from a neutral perspective.

    In the latest Consumer Report annual survey the No 1 rated family vehicle in N America is the Prius. This measures dependability, reliability and cost effectiveness ( different than acquisition cost ).

    In JD Power's survey of owners who would 're-up' on the same vehicle the leading vehicle is the Prius with 93% of owners saying that they would. The Corvette is 2nd at 92% and the Mini is third at 91%.

    In every measure the Prius is the most fuel efficient high-volume vehicle on the road in N America.

    Now subjective measures such as yours are equally valid but that doesn't classify the vehicle as a POC. It only says that in your opinion you don't like it. The other measures indicate that it's far from POC-status. Those are the facts.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    familydadx4 says, "Apparently, you love your Prius"

    I have never owned a Prius. I have owned a Honda Civic hybrid and I now drive a 2007 Camry hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Prius would be a good choice for the Islands. Top speed over there is 45 mph?

    I think it will be good and a local Toyota dealership to cover all the recalls and failures. :shades: Seriously, gas is cheaper than diesel on Maui most of the time.

    That long list of useless awards for the Prius are pushed by the greenies like Larsb, that think the hybrids are going to do something to save the World. Awards mean NOTHING anymore. They give them to every kid in school so no one is left out. Some of the Worst cars in our history were "Car of the Year".

    To just stick with the facts. The Prius is an ugly, poor handling, noisy, rough riding, unstable, and gets stuck easy in snow or ice.

    See larsb I can make big letters also.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I'm not a "greenie". I am a new-era conservationist. I conserve things.

    Gary says, "To just stick with the facts. The Prius is an ugly, poor handling, noisy, rough riding, unstable, and gets stuck easy in snow or ice."

    Most of those are not facts at all. Every one of them is an opinion of yours and a few other people who don't own Priuses.

    The only ones that are SORTA true in certain cases are the handling issue and the ice issue.

    But many people don't need great handling to be happy with their cars. Those of us who have outgrown the childish thrill of taking corners unsafely fast do not need "handling" to be high on our list of important things.

    There are many many Prius owners who drive the car in snow and ice. Some of them have indeed had problems. But a lot of them are just fine. The Prius is not a 4wd vehicle with snow tires.

    P.S. As I frequently get "called out" on posting "opinions" which are accused of being "facts" I understand why you think those things are facts, Gary. But they just ain't.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I forgot Prius gets a low rating for safety to blind pedestrians. They are much quieter on the outside than the inside. :blush:

    In the news:

    Most major automakers, and a handful of small start ups, are now developing electric cars, or range-extended electrics that run on battery power alone for long distances before activating a gasoline generator. The vehicles promise the performance drivers are accustomed to from gasoline-powered cars, together with savings at the pump and a tremendous improvement in emissions. But there's a problem.

    They're quiet. Eerily quiet. So quiet that visually-impaired people sometimes don't even know a car is near them.

    A new bill making its way through Congress would change that. Autoblog reports, "The bipartisan bill would require that the government ‘conduct a study on how to protect the blind and others from being injured or killed by vehicles using hybrid, electric, and other silent engine technologies.'"
  • familydadx4familydadx4 Member Posts: 26
    Gagrice:

    You had me in tears with that one! :)

    Thank you.
  • familydadx4familydadx4 Member Posts: 26
    Larsb:

    I've laughed until I fell out of my chair (yes I have enjoyed this discussion). My opinion hasn't changed, nor is it going to. I wouldn't own a Prius if you gave it to me. I would, however, turn around and sell it (at a discount) to a someone who wished to purchase it (read as a greenie). The Prius just reminds me of a corvair. Something about "unsafe at any speed". I've tried to imagine getting T-boned at an intersection with all those wonderful batteries. Enough to give me the willies.

    Please notice there are no big letters, or small letters. No data, no studies, no awards. Just my wee little voice with my opinion and my definition. I don't like the Prius, I think it's a poc.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Because you don't understand anything about the vehicle doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with it. It just shows your lack of knowledge.

    By your last post you show that you have no clue about what you are writing. Batteries have nothing to do with anything in a collision.

    But I can see here that you are about to respond and put your foot in your mouth so go right ahead.....[lamb-to-the-slaughter comes to mind].

    BTW your personal opinion has no bearing on anything except your personal choice. But before you go get all in a huff about 'where do you come off.....' the answer is 'Yes I do know more about them than you do.'

    But your personal incorrect opinion is perfectly valid for you personally. 'Nothing to see here, move on.'
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, opinions can be proven wrong.

    I have proven yours to be wrong.

    Go ahead and keep your opinion, though. You seem to be happy with it. It's wrong though.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    2010 Prius, more of a "driver's car" for all the whiners who for some reason like to drive a car like they are 16 again:

    Review: 2010 Toyota Prius a miser with new moves

    As for the suspension, it actually has some roll control now, and the whole car feels tighter than ever. In fact, if anything, it might be a bit too tight in terms of damping. Small road inputs (on the rare occasion that you can find such a thing in Michigan) are transmitted a bit too directly to the driver's back side. While the ride and handling balance is certainly more geared to enthusiasts than before, it could still use a bit of tweaking. The Prius still understeers at the limit like most mainstream front-wheel-drive cars, but it never feels out of control.

    The new Prius is no longer just an appliance for commuting. It's almost fun to drive. Toyota just needs to apply some more of its Kaizen philosophy of continual improvement to the ride and handling and we can call it good.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    TCH is highest rated 2009 Hybrid:

    Consumers' Top Rated for 2009

    Hybrid
    Hybrid: Toyota Camry Hybrid
    Toyota Camry Hybrid

    The Toyota Camry Hybrid may not have the pop culture appeal of the Prius, but our consumer reviewers have rated it as the best hybrid in the 2009 Consumers' Top Rated Awards. We have a good idea why this car is so popular among owners, who rated the Camry Hybrid quite a bit higher than our editors have. The Camry Hybrid is easy to drive, has a quiet ride and offers plenty of high-tech features. In a recent road test review, our editors wrote: "Unlike the Prius, it never gives you the sense that you're driving a science experiment. The Camry Hybrid is every bit a Camry, except it uses less gas." Although its fuel economy isn't the highest in the hybrid segment, many owner-reviewers noted that they were able to get fuel-economy numbers well above 40 mpg. A few owners considered buying a luxury sedan, but ultimately decided on the Camry Hybrid. All of them were happy with their decision.
  • bwilson4webbwilson4web Member Posts: 80
    On May 28, we paid $24,250 for a 2010 Prius and on the way home, running bi-directional, cruise control runs, we got: 67 MPG@50 mph; 62 MPG@60 mpg; 55 MPG@65 mph; 53 MPG@70 mph; 49 MPG@75 mph. We sold a 2001 Echo for part of the 2010 costs and have never looked back.

    The 2010 Prius has more room, quieter, and more power. The body is stronger and includes multiple airbags. It fact, it includes pedestrian collapsing hood, quarter panels and bumper to make pedestrian accidents survivable ... something missing from just about any other vehicle.

    We've looked at the Prius-pedestrian accidents and from 2001-2007, the years we have accident data and the Prius, there have been only 11, Prius-only and pedestrian fatalities. Near as we can tell this period covers 5.8 billion Prius miles. The raw accident data suggests the Prius from 2001-2007 has had about 0.9 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles compared to 1.6 fatalities for all USA vehicles as reported by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

    When Prius skeptics don't have facts and data, a common problem, they just make them up. That is OK since it gives Prius owners an opportunity to get the facts and data, the truth, and smite the skeptics with a clue-by-four.

    FYI, our other car is a 2003 Prius with 120,000 miles getting 52.1 MPG after the 70,000 miles I've put on it in three and a half years. The battery, transaxle and engine are fine and I'm looking forward to driving it until the wheels fall off.

    So in a time of poor vehicle sales, we paid $24,250 for a brand new 2010 Prius and know that we got a great deal. We have a car whose mileage off the dealer lot can not be beat; whose safety features are outstanding; and will due to the lack of stress and strain, run quietly and efficiently long into the future ... certainly longer than the Hummers recently sold to China.

    Bob Wilson
    Huntsville, AL
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Looks like the dealers in San Diego will be gouging the Prius buyers like they did in 2004. Only 3 I could find here range from $29k to $32k with TTL. And they are in a very non eco friendly BLACK and gray. Pretty high price to pay for a stripped Prius.

    PS
    The trim level 5 that Toyota says will be $32k will cost a CA buyer well in excess of $35,000.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    That's the buyers' decision. There are those amongst us ( 305 million of us ) for whom $35000 is not a big deal. Nobody is holding a gun to any buyer's head.

    When supply comes into balance with demand in a few months normality will return and everyone will be happy....even the ones who paid $35000 and got theirs first. Isn't this a great country?
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