Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Not sure what the lincoln is but my guess is a Town Car.
The Lexus is a LS400 I think and the Acura is a Legend.
Town Car
british_rover got the models in the correct order.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
This car won't be for profit.
GM has been reporting red ink in the past and complaining about retiree medical costs. Where will funds come from to build a "competent" V16 that would try to equal (surpass?) the Maybach? Think that greenies in US would go nuts making case of how wasteful V16 car would be in use of gasoline (even though only limited production). They would get traction on CNN, MSNBC, etc. Others would make case that engineering/development dollars would be better spent on improving their bread-and-butter vehicles or in funding retirees medical costs.
GM and Cadillac could get more positive publicity and hopefully sales to follow if they would try to catch up to Honda and Toyota in providing hybrid/alternative fuel vehicles. They could also try to catch up to Honda in their CAFE numbers. Will they have a new CTS model hybrid like Lexus has for their luxury car line?
Side issue: Understand that GM retiree medical costs are covered by union contracts. Wonder if GM will try to emulate many other companies that have shifted a lot of retiree medical premiums to the retirees when they discuss new upcoming contracts. This will help GM competitive position.
You think???
Maybe too timidly. They will be afraid of a strike.
62vetteefp, "GM: General Model View, Market Share & Profit News" #1066, 16 Jan 2007 5:56 am
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You've got be be kidding. GM is in a prime position to pull a "Honda" on the luxury makes.
What I mean by this is to build a somewhat close but much less expensive and mre reliable version of the same car. Honda did this during the 80s and it worked incredibly well. Build a car that's 80% as good as a GM or Ford(at the time), but price it for less and make it as reliable as a washing machine. And sales slowly gained momentum until it was pounding on the competition.
It's not bling or glitz or some showcar. It's reliability that wins in the end. And currently, GM pounds on BMW, Mercedes, and Audi, and Mitsubishi. It's not Lexus or Acura yet, but it's also not as expensive, either.
It's not going to happen, wish as we may.
After all, GM has been trying to do this for 35 years.
GM needs to do what Harley did...not build the best motorcycle, but build a better one AND come up with brilliant marketing.
That's good enough for success. You don't have to build the best of something to win...you just have to convince a lot of people that it is something they simply MUST have, for image, prestige, "sound of the engine", whatever.
This is what Harley did---they came back from the very grave...they were in WORSE shape than Cadillac 20 years ago, and look how well they've done, and all without building a particularly good motorcycle. They just improved on themselves and left the rest to the marketing guys---and they did a brilliant job of it. They changed their entire customer base in a few short years! They sold motorcycles that formerly went to outlaws, but now to accountants. (Can you see how Cadillac needs to do the same type of customer switch?)
So I'm all for letting Americans do what they do best---marketing a product.
As for "ruining" one's reputation by coming out with a V-16, what could be worse for reputation than coming out with cars that don't have a strong identity?
In order to have ANY kind of reputation, you first must be noticed, right?
Not trying to be mean about this, but GM is more is a position to pull a "Hyundai" rather than a "Honda".
That is, GM will have to overcome the baggage of their past on the reliability front.
Having said that, I like the new CTS very much. It's a clean looking car that has a Cadillac look, and a very nice interior. Good work, GM.
Some showcar won't impress. Why? Because GM can't make a Bently, they can't make a DB9, and they surely can't out Porsche a Porsche. And something like a Saleen S7... The high-end market is saturated and they'd need billions in R&D to really compete.
It's much better to do what they are doing. The maintainence costs on a CTS with the new 100K warranty are going to be a mere fraction of the costs of a BMW or Mercedes. Just price the costs of anything not covered by the warranty - or more realistically the costs in the 5-10 year range.
With the BMW, it eats a hole in your walet to the point that you are smarter off *leasing* it and avoiding the pounds of flesh routine. The CTS? Even the older CTSs were tanks by comparison. And, they sold all they could make. Even with a puke-inducing interior they sold a ton of them.
They don't need to get fancy - they just need to take the philosophy that they have with the new Buicks and Cadillacs and apply it to everything that they do. And of course, toss about half of their deadweight models like the DTS. The Lucerne CXS is a DTS. Just call it a Buick DTS or something (for the top-end Lucerne) and avoid the overlap.
The same goes with the Grand Am. Small and nasty and who needs it? Most of Pontiac could evaporate and abberations like the Aveo just need to be gone. GM, by just stopping rentals and budget entry-level sales could undo a lot of the damage, IMO.(and probably boost their bottom line, since those small tin cans don't make much profit).
Leave the entry-level and 4 cylinder markets to Scion and Hyundai. Concentrate on midsize and larger vehicles that you aspire to own after suffering through your econobox instead of souring peolpe since their entry-level GM is such a heap.
We'll have to wait and see about that...
At 30K or so for the base model, the upcoming 3.6 CTS is a huge step up from an Accord or something like an older Regal. It may be the bottom-end of the luxury performance crowd, but it still is part of it - and quite affordable, especially a once it's a couple of years old.
That'll definitely be a winner. You know what else would be great too? The 300 HP model with navi and loaded with every options for $35K after rebates and incentives.
Somebody please punch me, I know I am dreaming...
The only thing I question is "GM has been trying to do this for 35 years."
That would be about the 70s... and the American car makers thought the little, economy cars wouldn't be a factor; they would just go away. Especially true after the Carter "oil shortage" with gas lines. The companies didn't try to build a truly small economy car. They adapted their big car to slightly better mileage with high weight and lots of parts to go bad because of features like power windows. But their shortsightedness let the little cars become more entrenched and endeared to buyers as econoboxes for which they served their purpose well; cheaper to buy, cheaper to run. They did have flaws but for commuter cars, they were better than a Falcon, Vega, Gremlin, etc.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The DTS will need to move onto some other platform to remain in production. I think that the Lucerne will also need to move onto another platform. What platforms will be available is somewhat fuzzy. I think that the DTS should remain the large sedan at a nominal price, for those who do not want a sports sedan.
When I saw the Chrysler 300, my thoughts were-
1. "That's the first REAL American car I've seen in decades".Tough looking, V-8, RWD, Tough and Confident looking.
2. That car should have been the new Cadillac. Of course, the styling now belongs to Chrysler, but conceptly the concept should have been a BIG GM car.
I think that's the model for U.S. Manufacturers. Forget about being all things to all people Forget FWD (but not 4WD). Build big cars with RWD and plenty of room for 5 or 6.
Think Delta 88, Impala, Buick. Don't build sports cars, build Mustangs and Corvette style cars. Leave the work-a-daddy commuter stuff to the Japanese.
I'd have bought a Ford '49 Concept in a heartbeat if they'd built one.
Ford '49 Concept
"Leave the work-a-daddy commuter stuff to the Japanese." That's a receipt for 2 of the big 3 to go out of business. The market that you're talking about just isn't big enough to support all three companies. As well as the 300 has done, look how hurting Daimler is now.
But, still, a no-options CTS with stickshift and the 3.6 engine should be a nice ride at just over $30K after rebates. Even with no options, it'll still be a very nice interior I bet, and MP3 and the rest are likely going to be finally standard.
One nice things about the DVD-audio, btw. That means you can load a DVD with MP3s on it and get about 500-600 songs per DVD - then with a changer... Who needs an Ipod when you have 3,000 songs in your dash?
Yes, retro is dead. Big showy boats are also dead. Gotta go with reliability, like Toyota did. When they first came out with Lexus, you could get 80% of a Mercedes for 2/3 the price. And they sold a lot of them, because most self-made peolpe are pretty frugal with their money. Saving 5-10K or more for something that rides almost as well... it's not a tough compromise for many to make. They don't want bling for bling's sake so much as to feel that they aren't relegated to driving the minivan or commuter-box anymore.
Now if GM could just switch the Buicks to RWD...
Are customers, potential customers, mass market clamoring for this? Do people want intrusive big humps in back seat areas for drive shaft? Have there been market surveys, studies showing that people want RWD with all of its handling disadvantages in non-dry weather?
Was the 300C a super high quality, ultra-reliable car?
Not particularly, but it was good enough and different enough and the marketing was superb.
I have no doubt Cadillac can continue to sell lots of cars, but that's not the point, is it? If they just want to sell lots of cars, they'll survive but they'll be competing in the brutal "lots of cars" market with Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and all the rest in the middle class market. They'll just be a Chevrolet with more stuff bolted on it.
Given that GM is losing market share, year after year, decade after decade, Cadillac is going to have to come up with something beyond being a Chevrolet---because that seems to be a slippery slope.
I say GO UPSCALE Cadillac, as far as you can reach! Do to a V-16 what Chrysler has done with the 300C, but in a much higher bracket.
In other words, a flagship that would be so spectacular that the reputation would trickle down to the middle class cars.
Gone are the days when you had to have a big solid 3 inch diameter piece of pipe under there.
What ???? DVD-Audio discs don't hold 500-600 songs do they ??? I own a couple but never knew that ? The bad thing about a I-pod is the music can't be converted to 5.1 Dolby Digital which IMHO makes then useless unless you like Pro-Logic II which mimics surround sound however it's not even close to the same.
BTW- Expect a fully loaded CTS to be priced at $44-45K fully loaded which undercuts the IS350 by a $2-3K and similar equiped 335i by several more thousands. The current TL isn't in the same league and the G35 doesn't have the quality and fit and finish of the new CTS. Audi ????? well are they even a competitor in this segment anymore ?????
Rocky
Rocky
After rebates?
Rebates have to GO
The only thing I see that separates CTS and TL to 2 different leagues is one being FWD and another RWD. Otherwise these 2 are pretty comparable, given that both of them are larger in size than other entries in this segment. I also expect to see the new CTS' interior to be at TL's level in terms of material selection, fit-n'-finish and refinement.
G35 doesn't have the quality and fit and finish of the new CTS.
Have you been inside the G35? Have you been inside the new CTS? How can you make such statement when you don't even have a chance to compare them side by side? No doubt the CTS' interior is light years better than its predecessor but I think until we got a chance to touch it and feel it we shouldn't make any premature comparisons like "CTS' interior is much better than xxx's". The new G's interior is actually pretty nice, not quite at Lexus or Acura's level yet but is almost side by side with the 3-series.
Believe me, I really do like this new CTS and I think this is definitely a honest effort from Cadillac. If I am in the market today for an entry level luxury sedan I'd surely to put it on my list.
Rocky
That GM stayed with the design and even built a second varient of the V-16 engine introduced in 1937-38 shows that GM stayed the course to make Cadillac a premium brand in the Amercan market. Today Cadillac is faced with a serious problem, having teased the public, whether or not to build the car.
Frankly, the soft pedalling by GM about the Sixteen since its showing in the public leaves them the room to surprise the public and roll out a production model. Rolls-Royce toured its 9.0 Litre V-16 100EX show car, having Jay Leno drive it for an article and review, all across America and numerous other markets. According to R-R potential buyers nixed the V-16 engine, because they felt "they did not need it..." But a Rolls-Royce convertible is an entirely different genre than a Cadillac sedan. Precisely why Cadillac could succeed with a very limited build-to-order run of cars---1-1,500 per year.
Maybach failed in the market-place because no one outside of Germany knew what 'Maybach' meant---an auto firm that never sold more than 150 cars per year between 1919-1944. Had DaimlerChrysler introduced the car as a "Grosser 770 Mercedes-Benz" and priced it several thousand below R-R it might have succeeded in the manner intended.
Thus Cadillac has the chance to capture imagination, engineering prowess, and regain the territory it so well marked out from the Leland era forward. GM migh break-even on every car it sells, but what it will do for the image portends a remarkable renascence of what 'Cadillac' means to the public. At the end of the day Cadillac must defend the "American" market, but should not remain the only defender...spurring Lincoln and Imperial to regain the market and compete against Cadillac.
DouglasR
What ???? DVD-Audio discs don't hold 500-600 songs do they ??? I own a couple but never knew that ?
You'll note that I said that if it played DVD-A format and also plays MP3s, it will play a DVD filled with MP3s as well, like a typical computer drive will.
You can fit roughly 100 songs ona normal CD in MP3 format, and about 6.5 times that on a DVD in MP3 format.
Cadillac claimed it. When have you ever seen a model brochure mention a competitor and that the word "beater" in it? This is getting more ridiculous by the post. I can't believe you actually think such a claim would be present in a brochure!
The 1990 Allante did have traction control. I would think on icy roads the Allante probably would handle better than an SL, particularly with the stock tires.
Whooptie do, I have a convertible that handles better in snow and ice, just what I want one for.
If you can't sell something in sufficient numbers to be profitable, what is the point of production? The Mercedes 600 was equally a total flop and failure, in spite of its technical advantages over the Rolls.
Total and utter BS. For one the price of the 600 was not anywhere the price of the Allante. Secondly the 600 was unlike the junkish Allante, and engineering masterpiece. How do you know that they didn't sell enough of them to make a profit? You have Mercedes' books on this? I'd love to see them. Or is this just a sillestimate born of carrying a torch for a long dead piece of junk like the Allante?
M
Rocky
The comparison to the Mercedes 600 is a false analogy, I think. The comparable Mercedes according to most of the links I've found on the 'net seems to be the Mercedes 560SL
As an example,on Wickipedia (yeah, but I can quote them without copyright issues),we find this:
Originally designed under the code name "Callisto", the Allanté was intended to restore Cadillac to its position as a credible competitor to the Mercedes-Benz 560SL. A total of 21,430 were produced.
Cadillac Allante
I can't seem to find production numbers for only the 560, but I did find this:
The 560 SL was only exported to the USA, Australia and Japan, but as a detuned version with a catalytic converter and only 230 hp because of the emissions regulations in these countries. The production of the 300 SL - 560 SL ended in August 1989, more than 18 years after the first 350 SL was built. The 107 SL series thus set a record for Mercedes-Benz that is unlikely to be broken: no other Mercedes-Benz model series was produced for such a long period. A total of 237,287 of these cars came out of the Sindelfingen plant, a figure that demonstrates just how popular the 107 series was.
Mercedes SL Info
Yeah tell me about it, but I wasn't the one that started that mess.
M
kd, gave me some more bad news as he showed me info showing the VUE is going to Mexico in the toyota forum. What is this country going to do with this continued flood of good jobs going south ??? I didn't know the HHR was also....
I told him I will refuse to buy anything made in mexico if I can help it. :sick:
Rocky
http://www.gm.com/company/corp_info/global_operations/north_america/mexi_ramos.h- tml
Pontiac Aztek, Chevrolet Cavalier, Chevrolet Chevy, Pontiac Sunfire, Buick Rendezvous
In actuality the HHR is being built there and the others are now gone so the plant was pretty empty and has room for the VUE.
They also have the Silao which builds full size trucks and Toluco which build HD trucks.
So GM has 3 assembly plants in Mexico supplying vehicles to all of NA. In NA they will have a total of 24 which includes Oshawa in Canada. There is a 4rth plant being built which is supposed to build subcompact cars for mexico and South America.
In the early days of the auto, Canada and Mexico had very little domestic production - and later, none. The most prominate Canadian company was bought out by GM. Within a space of a couple of decades, the balance of trade between the US and its neighbors went completely out of whack due to the exportation of US cars.
In a spirit of cooperation, the US companies built plants in Canada and Mexico. These plants supplied many of the most popular models for domestic consumption in those countries, but many models were only built in the US, so there were still exports.
The agreement acknowledged this and made provisions for exports of certain vehicles BACK to the US to roughly even out the values going back and forth.
The US industry is really a North American industry and has operated as such for at least 80 years.
During my G35 test drive I was very impressed with the new interior, especially the washi aluminum trim. However, that quickly changed after I found out that the bottom part of the door panels was made out of hard plastic...
My point about the 600 was that it was a flop, as you claimed the Allante was.
Whether a particular vehicle is a "flop" depends on what the expectations are, and to some extent depends on whether it was a money maker or not. Shifty explained that Mercedes built the 600 for prestiage purposes and, I think, wanted to sell enough of them to get a presence in the larger cities of the world. Whether 2500 would be enough to do that is a useful question, but this is not the proper forum for a debate on that subject.
Did the Allante accomplish for Cadillac what was expected? I think that the Allante was a two passenger convertible in the same body style that the Mercedes SL was at the time. The SL was not the sports car that it started out as in the 1950's with the 300SL Gullwing. Cadillac and Buick must have planned the Reatta and Allante in the early 80's to get them into production for the 1987 model year. At that time GM was concerned about fuel consumption, which is the basic reason for converting the full size sedans to front wheel drive in the mid-80's. The Allante did add a convertible model to the Cadillac line up, and sold at a rate that was comparable to the Eldorado convertibles of the 1950's, and 60's. The Allante was very expensive, where the Eldorado was not.
The car magazines all suggested that the Allante was expected to steal sales from the Mercedes SL, but I think that was a silly idea, which I doubt came from Cadillac. However, I think Cadillac may have expected the Allante to make some sort of market on its own. I think it did fairly well considering the price tag. I think that the Seville Turing Sedan (STS), with the northstar engine, captured the car magazines attention, so Cadillac retired the Allante after the 93 model year, since the new FWD STS was a better flagship model. The Allante was a much nicer looking Cadillac in 1987 than the FWD DeVille was, and the Seville looked much like a Pontiac Grand Am.
Fortunately, Saturn "got" this gap problem by producing (has it come out yet?) a turbo version with I presume a 6 speed manual transmission. Saturn doesn't have to re-invent the wheel---just catch up fast if they know what's good for them. No waiting years for engine upgrades----FATAL!!
I haven't really looked at the interiors of all the Cadillac models, so I can't comment on this "plastics" issue....but I can say the "plastics issue" does exist on the new Corvette. There's more of it than I expect to see on a car of that price. But then, in Corvette's case, you are getting Ferrari performance at quite a discount, so critics could just keep quiet about the plastic and enjoy the ride.
As others have said, have to wait and see/touch/sit in new 2008 CTS. Cadillac will progress quite a bit if its new interior can match the previous gen Acura TL let alone the current model.
There's a beautiful Caddy
you know they promise it tomorrow.
It's the most beautiful sight
that you'll ever see.
I know it's only a day away
and it's always in the future.
But it's that something to look forward to
that brings me closer to GM.
Do you remember the time
we said we'd love GM until forever?
Till all the cars on the highway
turned one by one into Japanese.
I know comeback's just a day away
and it's always in the future.
Apologies to James Barclay Harvest
It looks great in the pictures, but so did the Seville, the Allante, the STS, the Cimmaron, and the Diesel and the Catera.
Let's wait till the public gets a chance to drive them for a few months.
I really like the looks of the new (2nd time round) CTS, but I liked the looks of the Seville and the Allante too. Let's see whether Lucy yanks the football away again before we give it hero's honors.
Remember, we know that Toyota screws one up on occasion, even when they look good in the pictures. I suppose it could happen to GM too.
The Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice are a bit heavier, with a stiffer body, than the Miata (or whatever it is called now), and, with about the same horsepower, have a bit less performance. However, the reviews that I have read, suggest that the Sky/Solstice are better riding.
I really don't know how Cadillac interiors compare with the highend imports, as there are no dealers in highend imports here. I do know that the CTS interior had the door panels covered with plastic that had at best a firm feel to it. I am not sure about the old SRX interior, and I need to check that out. The new SRX interior has a nicer look, but the door panels still have a firm feel to them.
I did read that the Corvette's plastics were supposed to have a much nicer finish on them, but somehow that was canceled and the poorer finish remained.
The CTS's interior for 2008 will I think compare with the 2007 SRX interior, much nicer, but the feel may still lack some of the softness that I at least associate with luxury.
________________________________________
Cadillac has to be recognized as coming a long, long way in the last 10 years. They offer products that do compete with Lexus and BMW/Mercedes ect.. The leaders in Cadillac need to stay on course with new products to entice people to visit showrooms. Thier image is getting better year after year to be on par with best luxo sedans from Europe and Asia. Give credit where cedit is well earned. Great work Cadillac!
_______________________________________________
What ???? DVD-Audio discs don't hold 500-600 songs do they ??? I own a couple but never knew that ?
You'll note that I said that if it played DVD-A format and also plays MP3s, it will play a DVD filled with MP3s as well, like a typical computer drive will.
You can fit roughly 100 songs ona normal CD in MP3 format, and about 6.5 times that on a DVD in MP3 format