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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    thomasw,

    Why don't you tell us how you really feel. Geeeez !!!! :surprise:

    I'm going to say this I'd be willing to bet a good portion of BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, drivers are in debt up to their eyeballs because they are trying to out do their neighbor. ;)

    Perception and having money is two different things obvious. I'd be willing to bet your average Cadillac, driver has alot more money than your average Bimbenzus drivers. :)

    Rocky

    P.S. Blame the UAW card is out again I see. My father saved GM/Delphi $3-4 Million in suggestions in his 27 years.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Generally, I agree with everything that you said. In particular, I agree with you statement that one "settles for" a GM product. There are of course exceptions, the Corvette, the new Tahoe and Yukon, and the Solstice to name a few.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    "I'd be willing to bet your average Cadillac, driver has alot more money than your average Bimbenzus drivers"

    Wow, must be a big regional difference.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that it is true that GM stops at good enough. However, if the rest of your post were true, then the J. D. Power surveys would put GM at the bottom of the heap. However, the reality is that GM is above the industry average, and Cadillac is only just a bit worse than Lexus, which is the top of the heap.

    What I like about my Cadillac is that there are a number of dealerships in this area. The nearest Lexus, BMW or Acura dealer is a day's drive away.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Just based on people I know here and back home in Michigan. ;)

    It's so bad fintail, one family I know lives in a double- wide but bought a new Benz, and dress in the latest fashions to be perceived as something they are not.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Nearest Benz and Lexus dealer to me is 3 1/2 hours away from me if you don't stop to eat and fuel once.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    L.A. Show: Cadillac DTS-L Adds a Few Inches

    LOS ANGELES — Weary late-night travelers arriving at the airport after hours should appreciate Cadillac's new DTS-L, a long-wheelbase version of the front-wheel-drive DTS sedan that arrives in early 2007.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117747

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    L.A. Show: Cadillac Adds Platinum Series

    LOS ANGELES — Cadillac continues to focus on elegant, hand-crafted cabins with its new Platinum Series collection, which includes limited editions of the STS, XLR and DTS.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117765

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Must be one heck of a doublewide..

    Around here, you can drive through areas where every house is 1M+ and healthy six figure incomes are common...and you'll see virtually no Caddys save for a scattered 'Slade. In the same areas you can't throw a baseball without hitting a S class or 7er. Caddy doesn't say "money" more than anything else.

    You can lease a new C class just as cheaply as a CTS. I suspect GM financing is no more difficult than MB or BMW, either.

    Maybe dealer location has something to do with it. Within an hour I have 4 MB dealers, and I believe 3 BMW dealers.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Fintail,

    Down here in Tex-[non-permissible content removed] people are still pretty patriotic by nature and prefer domestic cars over foreign. The dealer obstacle I'm sure has a lil' to do with it also. ;) I'm very surprised so many rich folks would want to live in cold and cloudy Washington. Burrrrski ! :P

    Rocky
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    If I may chime in here most people I come across in the BMW's and MB's are usually leveraged. I used to live next to a neighborhood where the least expensive house was in the $600's and lexus and MB's were in every garage. Sure these people had six figure income but most spent it faster than they make it.

    Most Caddy owners tend to live more in their means and usually get their cars when they can afford them easily.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Good point. Being coastal, there's no domestic loyalty and a big acceptance of Asian cars. Very much like California. I see more Smarts than I see Lucernes...probably as many new Lamborghinis as XLRs.

    Beach an hour away, mountains an hour away, desert 2 hours away, grinding traffic, laughably inflated house prices, slightly higher wages, passive aggressive local psyche - WA has it all.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think most Caddy owners (present company excluded) are of the generation that recalls the depression, and is more frugal...not to mention that they were young when Caddy really was a standard of the world. I guess they are at a point where they can afford them easily - respectable middle class house is long paid off, no real consumer debt to speak of, retirement funds more than paying the bills...time to rewards oneself. Younger people do it earlier today, and assume more debt. Younger people for the most part don't buy Caddys though.

    I don't see the Escalade market as especially frugal anyway. DTS however, very much so, especially as so many are bought as near-new.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    desert 2 hours away

    What ?

    Rocky
  • thomaswthomasw Member Posts: 34
    JD Powers only measures for the first three years. Not having major problems during the first three years should be a given in any car.

    Consumer Reports measures longer, and the trail of black dots next to GM vehicles is telling. So does GM's litany of recalls (how many times has the TrailBlazer been recalled???)

    Car and Driver did a long term test of a Cadilllac SRX. It left them stranded multiple times, and they mentioned that in the 30-40,000 mile range had numerous and excessive squeeks and rattles.

    Hardly confidence inspiring ...
  • allargonallargon Member Posts: 75
    I will respectfully submit that the C class isn't keeping CTS sales from being class leading.

    BMW, Acura and Infiniti rule the ELPS market. The CTS puts up decent sales numbers. Cadillac is weakest in the true luxury markets dominated by BMW, Mercedes and Lexus (think 5,7 series classes). I agree with everyone that Cadillac would need to hit a tremendous home run to rebuild its brand in the Pacific Northwest and the Atlantic Northeast. Cadillac's still mean something in the Southeast, too.

    Rocky, I live in Austin which is very much in Texas. This is an Infiniti town. There are more G35's on the road than Chevy Impala/Malibu's here. There are some 3 series here but not like in the Bay Area or Los Angeles.

    What may work in Caddy's favor is if they build a compelling product is for people to buy Caddy's to differentiate themselves from all the BMW's, Infinitis and Lexus' around. It's starting to work for Audi.

    Standard of the world? Hmm... Even Lexus doesn't have that big of a worldwide market outside of the US. BMW and Mercedes are #1/#2 worldwide. Lexus and Cadillac are #1/#2 in the US.

    GM would need to devote a ton of money that they don't have into building the Cadillac brand worlwide ahead of Audi/BMW/Mercedes. They have the dealer network and the manufacturing capacity. They just need to continue to work on product and make sure that it is class leading (luxury, performance, value, gadgets, etc.) not just merely "good enough".
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I find Infiniti, #1 in Austin, Tx very interesting. :surprise: ........ We here in the Panhandle, don't have a infiniti dealership. The closest one to my house would be approx. 5 hours away. The Panhandle as far as luxury cars go is Cadillac country. However the #1 vehicals are GM and Ford SUV's and Trucks followed by Dodge Trucks with Cummins Diesels. ;)

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    2 hours east of here...semi-high desert. No cacti (that I know of), but sand dunes, sagebrush, tumbleweeds, 115-120 in the summer, etc
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The C is no sales volume leader, but pricewise it compares to the CTS, and still racks up some sales even though it dates back to MY 2001. Early ones were kind of dodgy (hey, like CTS interiors) but current ones seem to be sorted out.

    I don't see Caddy developing any large scale worldwide presence, not until I am very old at the earliest. Ask Lexus...Europe is a very tough market to crack.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    What ?

    In Idaho ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I don't see Caddy developing any large scale worldwide presence, not until I am very old at the earliest.

    Wow, you consider 40 old ? :P

    I disagree with you on that one. They have a few compact cars designed just for that market in the pipeline. I believe GM, is going to build a new plant in Warsaw Poland, if my memory is working right.

    Rocky
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Eastern WA. Especially east of the Columbia.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    You mean 90, right?

    Europe is a tough market to crack. GM has many factories - where they have made Vauxhalls and Opels for decades. That won't help them sell Caddies to people fiercely loyal to MB and BMW. Caddy has never been more than a small blip on the radar in Europe, and usually not even that.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Washington State can get that hot ? I never knew their was a desert in WA. Interesting..... :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I think success with Cadillac, in europe won't take as long as you think Fintail. I'm not saying it will be a sales leader but with the right products and our rapidly deflating dollar Cadillac will be able to under cut the premium brands just like the Japanese do us. So call me a optimist if ya like. :P

    Rocky

    P.S. You will be younger than 50' lets put it that way. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Lexus has been trying to crack Europe in some form for a decade, and is making amusingly slow progress. The same Lexus that re-arranged the NA market in the blink of an eye. Somehow I trust Lexus marketers more than I do those hired by GM. Dinosaur rock won't sell cars on the continent. Price in that end of the auto market there isn't nearly the selling point as it is here, either. They tried to sell the old STS in England, the price was low compared to the competition, but it was simply called "trashy luxury" by CAR. Substance and tradition have much more value, and people are much more sensitive to material quality in luxury cars (wood, leather, paint). Optimist indeed.

    150 maybe.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    ROTFLMAO :D 150, eh ?

    That's only 80 years away for you. :P

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Third, once one gets outside the Midwest, the Cadillac brand has zero cache

    Really? Philadelphia is far from the Midwest and Cadillac still has a lot of brand equity. So does Buick. We just hired a young guy at my workplace and he tells me about a lot of the other younger guys driving Buicks and that they seem hot right now. I think young people are getting sick of Mommy's Camcord and the poseur "F&F" crowd.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Very true. My girlfriend's brother-in-law has an MBA, a nice house in Connecticut, drives a new BMW, and asked to stay at my house to attend my girlfriend's Dad's funeral because he didn't have the money for a hotel room. Pathetic!

    Funny thing is, the dummy managed to wreck his Bimmer on the Roosevelt Blvd. Anybody familiar with the Roosevelt Blvd. knows what a dangerous, poorly-designed road it is and all the convoluted cross-overs and psychopathic drivers. This dummy tried going 60 mph through a cross-over, hit the concrete curb, and flipped the 5-Series on its side pretty much totalling it. I come home from work to get a phone call that he is in the hospital getting checked out, but they will release him that night. His wife, (my girlfriend's sister) was in worse shape and had to be kept overnight and missed her own father's funeral. I wonder how he felt getting a ride home in my old Park Ave?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I I probably appear to be less than what I am. I live in a modest house where my mortgage is less than most people's rent. I mostly drive my old Park Avenue and dress more like your average blue-collar worker than some management-type despite the fact I'm the boss of my department. I have no credit card debt and all my cars are long since paid for.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Funny thing, most people I see in NE Philly with BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes, and Lexi are either those who are highly leveraged, drug dealers, or Russian mafia. Heck, the ghettos are full of luxury cars and BHPH lots selling out-of-warranty luxury cars.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    In Pittsburgh, I a lot of people buy used luxury cars. For example, you still see way more of the previous generation 7 series on the road than you do new ones (2002 and up). Not counting Escalades, most of the Cadillacs that you see on the road are about 10 years old and are driven by a retired guy. Maybe it is just the section of town that I live in but I don't see too many new Cadillacs on the road.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    What year are all these Buicks? I can't imagine a younger guy in a Lacrosse or a Lucerne. I'd like to see young people who think Buicks are "hot" right now.

    Same question can be asked about the posers in the import luxury around there...how old are these cars? It takes no special money to buy a 10 year old S class or 7er, and these cars fool many into beliving they are newer than their registration may state. That's how it is here anyway.

    I suspect Caddys fall into the same hands. Pimped out Devilles are not uncommon in certain areas around here.

    The brand cachet statement from earlier is right on the nose. In some areas, these brands just don't have a lot behind them.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    J. D. Powers initial quality survey is a good predictor of the 3 year dependability survey. I think that the top makes in the 3 year dependability survey would continue on at the top after 6 years.

    The Consumer Reports survey is limited to what their subscibers own, and is not a scientific survey of each make. The basic problem is how to turn the data into something meaningful. I am not sure that Consumer Reports has. This does not mean that there is no useful data there, but comparing one make to another is questionable.

    Automobile also had a long term test of the SRX and were very happy with it, except that they would get the V8 instead of the V6.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    How is JD Power any better/worse then CR? Are you saying that CR subscribers who buy GM/Ford rate them lower just because they're CR subscribers. It's true that CR subscribers aren't a random sample, but I doubt if they're any more biased than any other group of people. If anything, they probably better at survey reporting because they're interested in this sort of thing since they are a CR subscriber (and no, I don't subscribe...I read them at the library or bookstore). Surveys are just one more thing to look at. They all stink in their own way, but they're better than nothing. I'd rather have manufactures be required to report on the cost per vehicle of warranty maintence work they perform, so we could really see where the problems are at!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >(and no, I don't subscribe...I read them at the library or bookstore).

    You just answered one part of the problem with CR's survey: no random sample. It's a convenience survey.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    JD Powers is also a survey of people's perceptions of their cars after 90 days...how is that better? Just because the sample isn't random doesn't mean it will produce bad data.

    I'm not saying that CR is perfect, but if a guy owns a Chevy Lumina for a few years and is responding to a survey, I don't see why his answers would be any different if he's responding to a CR survey vs a JD Powers survey, or how the results would be skewed in any specific way.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    JD Powers does longer studies up to 3 years IIRC.

    Are you getting a cross section, a random sample, of the Lumina owners in the total group of buyers/owners? That's the problem with CR. How many Lumina owners responded? Do you have 1000 so that there is a sample deviation of 3-4% for each year of Lumina.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Does JD Power survey at least 1000 for each model? I don't know if CR does or not. But you're right in that the higher the sample size, the less the error rate.

    Does JD Power provide any stats for cars beyond 3 years? I'm more concerned with reliability beyond 3 years (more like the 5-8 year point) when the warranty is gone. I wonder why JD Power doesn't look at long term reliability beyond 3 years?

    Do you have any examples of where JD Power indicates a car is highly reliable while CR indicates it's not?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Now that sounds like a well off middle class american. Oh, he must drive a Cadillac. :D

    Rocky

    P.S. I thought BMW's were the ultimate driving machine ? :blush:
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,290
    P.S. I thought BMW's were the ultimate driving machine ?

    Nope that was the Pontiac GTO.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • rickypaulrickypaul Member Posts: 24
    My original point is that GM has an inferiority complex (that may be well deserved) and has focused on the least common denominator. Even the best of what it has to offer is caught up in comparisons with its competition. Tested at Nurbriggen (whatever), more interior room than so and so..This mindset has to change. Cadillac needs to stake its own claim on the world. It needs to be Cadillac again. Right now its "I'm not just for old guys.." or "i make gangsta mobiles (just don't make me admit it..) I used to have a Grady White Boats. Someone told me it was the "cadillac" of boats. Cadillac is not the "cadillac" of cars anymore.

    Cadillac breaking away into a super luxury marque will allow the best American know how to reinvent the entire corporation. Super engineering advances have a way of trickling down. This improves the whole company. Cadillac vs. high end MB Models, High End BMW Models, is what needs to happen. Make cars that are undeniably good and have style, people will buy them.

    Just my two cents.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree, one thing that Cadillac, needs to not do is price themselves out of the working middle class's reach.

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    One could make the case that pricing itself into the working middle class's reach is what destroyed Cadillac's prestige in the first place, and that Mercedes-Benz was on its way to a similar fate in the late '90s.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Somehow I trust Lexus marketers more than I do those hired by GM.

    Exactly right - Cadillac marketing is great - like trying to sell the Catera in Spanish, using Cajones in the ad....dumb. Trying to sell the Escalade with an ad showing it plowing the snow - in Miami..... :confuse:

    I'm not betting the farm on Cadillac marketing taking Europe by storm....
  • thomaswthomasw Member Posts: 34
    >>One could make the case that pricing itself into the working middle class's reach is what destroyed Cadillac's prestige in the first place, and that Mercedes-Benz was on its way to a similar fate in the late '90s.

    Well, I suppose you could make that case regarding the Cimarron (the early inspiration for the Chevy Suburban a/k/a Escalade).

    But Cadillacs' prices have never been all that low, at least not for the big ones.

    The problem for the last 30-something years has been the fact that they've really been little more than Chevy's that have been "SuperSized."

    Which leads to another problem for Cadillac. It suffers from a kind of "reverse halo" effect.

    While "halo cars" can have a beneficial impact (or so the theory goes), the reverse is also true. Everyone knows that Cadillac is GM, and GM has managed to take the pretty stellar reputation it had in the 1950's through the 1960's, and trash it.

    Today the GM name carries negative perceptions: rental car level products, shoddy workmanship, poor reliability, outdated technology (four speed transmissions and OHV engines), and embarrassingly bad interiors.

    This impacts consumers' (and more importantly, opinion leaders and trend setters') image of the brand.

    Hence the absence of cachet (which it did have through the 1960's, but not since).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    OHV engines are more or less the state of the art. I think you mean pushrod. DOHC engines are still OHV engines.
  • thomaswthomasw Member Posts: 34
    You are right, I stand corrected. Thanks.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    . In my opinion, this does not have to, nor does it mean, that Cadillac hopes to compete with directly with BMW or Audi. Cadillac can not seriously think that their performace cars are on par with the BMW M series cars. I don't think that people cross shop an M series and a V series. I think Cadillac knows their market and believes that some of their buyers want a "hot rod".

    You and I know this, but as you can tell by the usual GM apologists here Cadillac likely thinks otherwise. The CTS-V is the rough and crude hot rod you speak of not the XLR-V and STS-V, they seem to have a much higher degree of refinement. Don't kid yourself Cadillac wants to be seen as equals with BMW and Mercedes at all cost.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You sound like a GM hater. Do you have a study with data on this or are you living in the past after problems with vehicles in the 80s or 90s?

    You sound like a GM apologist of the highest order. We actually have people here telling us that GM made great cars during the 80s? That is the most insane nonsense I've read yet. Those are precisely the years GM lost their [non-permissible content removed] to the foreign makes. Every GM car my family had during those years were utter and complete junk those are you facts. Fast foward to today. GM makes some decent, even "nice" cars that still manage to be (outside the Corvette Z06) merely competitive. GM misses the details 100 out of 100 times and they never, ever seem to get it right until it is too late. Don't need to have a "study" to tell me what I can see and feel for myself. That is the problem with studies, they only address certain things. Just because a GM car is more reliable nowaday doesn't mean they've fixed their traditional lousy build quality, another finer point lost here.

    M
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