Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

merc1 · January 2007

There is no confusion on my part. Cadillac had commercials and print ads during the time that touted it as the SL's competitor. There were more than just one article about the Allante which contained quotes from GM excutives about the Allante being a SL competitor.

I don't get what you're reaching for here with the Allante. It never established itself as a SL competitor and it didn't do any damage to Mercedes' SL.

Whether or not the Allante sold or not is irrelevant. That the Cadilac faithful bought so many of Caddy's 80s products tells you that Cadillac buyers didn't care or know what the "best" cars were during that time.

M

merc1 · January 2007

Well Corvette grabs some European car buyers because the performance you get for the money is just unbeatable. When you start breaking $100K however, the Europeans can throw a lot at you---but at $55K or so, they got nuttin' to match a Corvette's performance.

This is true. The rumored 650hp Supercharged Corvette Blue Devil or "SS" is going to really rock the establishment, even more so than the Z06. It hard to ignore 911 Turbo/F430 level performance for 65K no matter what the badge is.

Lexus knew the SC430 would be murdered by the SL so they ducked a direct confrontation.

M

sls002 · January 2007

As I have shown, your ability to recall things, like the 560SL's horsepower rating, is fuzzy.

merc1 · January 2007

As I have shown, your ability to recall things, like the 560SL's horsepower rating, is fuzzy.

So what. Guy, the Allante flopped. Everyone remembers that and Cadillac would like for you to forget it. Again, you act as though the correct numbers gave the Allante some type of advantage. Your continued harping on that is just ridiculous. The car was still underpowered and had far less hp then the SL of the day. It is matterles! You can keep bringing that up forever, it won't change a thing. The SL has been around since the 50's continusouly, while Cadillac has flopped in the segment before and according to some here now. That XLR isn't competitive I really don't agree with.

M

Kirstie_H · January 2007

Correction - Elvis is NOT dead (Offbeat tourist attractons - Elvis is Alive Museum. I'm driving by there tonight if you want me to give him a message.

Any chance we can drop the Allante conversation for awhile? It's really tedious, and has nothing to do with the future of Cadillac.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I'll try to settle this. My best books show the 560SLS with about a 25 HP advantage over the Allante and a 0-60 time of 8.0 seconds as opposed to Allante's 9.0 seconds and a top speed advantage of about 15 mph.

The SL would be a better handling car and would have more torsional rigidity.

Also, as any CEO will tell you, being first out of the gate is a huge advantage for a product.

sls002 · January 2007

This is what I posted back on January 1st regarding the Allante. If you disagree with what I said then OK.

"As far as the Allante is concerned, I think that it was overpriced, due in part to the extravagant manufacturing process. But more than anything, the FWD simply was not going to work in something that Cadillac expected to sell to Mercedes SL roadster buyers. Cadillac was able to flim-flam some people with the Seville Turing Sedan (STS) and they experimented with the computer controled suspension. However, as was the case with the 60's era Toronado and Eldorado, FWD has very serious limits with respect to handling on dry pavement. On slippery roads FWD is an other matter."

lokki · January 2007

The whole execution of the XLR has been a disappointment for me. I like the styling a lot in the pictures. I think it makes much better use of its design cues than the current CTS does.

But:

I got to drive an XLR at a Lexus event, and it made me crazy. As sexy as the design was, the moment I slid into the driver's seat I was frustrated. The interior felt huge and empty and...cheap. It reminded me of my friend's old Z-28. I knew about the exotic Zebra wood, but in the bright sunlight, it looked more like a polycoated piece of plywood from a kit car than a megabuck piece of forbidden rain forest.

The car was a nice driver - tight and flat on the smooth roads of the event course, but I didn't feel pampered or cosseted like I did in the Jag's, BMW's and Lexus at the same event.

This review from Forbes pretty well summarizes my feelings:

while the interior of the XLR might be a shade more luxurious than the Corvette's, it is not even in the same class as a Lexus or Jag. Despite all the lip service being paid to Cadillac's new exterior design cues, it is frustrating to see how much its interiors still lag behind.

The dashboard and console wouldn't be let out of the factory in Germany, Japan or England. While there are some nice wooden touches--such as on the steering wheel--the entire passenger side dash is one big swatch of vinyl. Would it have killed them to add a nice wooden strip to class it up a little? While environmentalists might appreciate the gesture, to most anyone else it seems like Cadillac is cheap, or clueless, or both.

Similarly, the side control panels are covered in some kind of pseudo-industrial plastic stripping that is just embarrassing. Cadillac has made much of the fact that the gauges were designed by the Italian-luxury jewelry and watch firm Bulgari, and even emblazoned the name 'Bulgari' ostentatiously on the speedometer. While easy enough to read, it doesn't look particularly stylish or special.

All of that to say that this is why I'm so hesitant to praise the new CTS in advance. The XLR looked pretty good in the magazine centerfolds, but in real life it was a different woman.

We won't even go into the trunk lid (top-cover?) design that dumps rain water in the trunk when you try to put the top down after the rain ends.

sls002 · January 2007

The Motor Trend tests in the 1986 September issue had the 560SL's 0-60 performance under 7 seconds. The Allante was a bit over 10 seconds with the 4100. With the 1989 4.5 liter engine, the Allante was under 8.5 seconds.

The comparison test on the Corvette, Porsche and SL went on to say that the SL had the most stiffest body, with little shake, while the Corvette was not as good.

british_rover · January 2007

I think overuse of wood trim is a sin that too many auto stylists fall into. I can see the conversation now...

Manager: We need to bring these interior upscale so what are your plans?

Chief Designer: We plan to cover as much of the interior as possible with shiny wood.

Manager: Perfect everyone knows shiny wood is high class just look at furniture...

Lexus and to a lesser extent Mercedes are serious offenders with regards to this.

I am a much bigger fan of small tasteful bits of wood. Unvarnished, non-shinny, natural looking wood is even better.

fintail · January 2007

I agree with that, for Caddy and GM in general. Their 50s and 60s products were fantastic, almost everything had a positive point.

lokki · January 2007

Well... Wood can be underdone too. My 1998 328i had one piece of wood on the dash in front of the passenger that looked for all the world like a giant wooden candy bar.

I always pictured that conversation as follows

Manager: Ze American market manager inzists on vood on das dashboard.

Chief Designer: Jawhol! We have place a piece right in front of za passengefrau where she can see it clearly!

Now vat is cuupholder thingy you vant?

fintail · January 2007

My fintail has gobs of nice unlaminated wood...dashboard, door trim, and window frames. It's tasteful. I don't know what got the laminated shiny wood kick started...safety concerns about it splintering?

I rode in a coworkers 04 Denali yesterday...it's like they didn't even try with that trim.

sls002 · January 2007

My local dealer had an XLR on the showroom floor last time I was there. The interior did not seem that much better than a basic Cadillac. At the same time I looked at the 2007 SRX interior. It does look better than the 2006 interior, but mainly because there is more wood. The plastics have been replaced with something that looks like leather, and has stitching. The 2008 CTS looks similar.

lemko · January 2007

How's the STS interior? I was really disappointed to see the interior of the STS when it debuted. I liked that of my current car much better. I hope the STS adopted some of the improvements of the SRX and the '08 CTS. I love the interior of the DTS.

sls002 · January 2007

I looked at both the DTS and STS sometime back, and I just sort of looked to see what they looked like, I did not get in. But my impression was that the STS's interior was similar to the DTS's for basic overall quality. I think that Lutz may have had something to do with the interior that the STS has, as I think that they may have been thinking along the lines of what the SRX got in 2004.

The basic difference between the STS and DTS interior is space. The DTS is a bigger, wider body, so it has more shoulder and hip room. The STS is a sports sedan, and not everyone wants a sports sedan.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I've driven a lot of 560SLs....I'm very skeptical that it's under 7 seconds unless maybe you are pointed downhill, got racing slicks on there and are lucky. I mean with 3800 lbs of pork, 227HP and a 2.47 rear end, that number just doesn't make sense to me.

A 500SL with 100 more horsepower only can do 0-60 in 6.1 seconds with a 2.65 rear. Even a 600SEC with over 400HP can only do 0-60 in 6.3.

FORBES review: Forbes is generally kind to Cadillac. I'm surprised they were quite that critical of the XLR.

sls002 · January 2007

I looked at that September 1986 Motor Trend article more than once, and both times I looked it said something like 6.8 seconds for the SL and 6.5 for the Corvette I think. All three cars were under 7 seconds, with the SL slowest. The SL's tires were commented on as limiting the SL's skidpad performance.

bumpy · January 2007

Ha!

I believe that the only time any wood should be present in an automobile is as a structural member. I wonder how far I'd get at the Mercedes dealer if I asked about the "wood-trim-delete" option?

sls002 · January 2007

It has been sometime since wood was a structural member in cars.

fintail · January 2007

I've seen some sport model late W202 cars with "carbon fiber" in place of the wood, I am sure it was a factory job. I think the C32 and C55 also had no wood.

bumpy · January 2007

Precisely. Unless it is a custom body built by people who know their way around a coping saw, I don't want it.

62vetteefp · January 2007

Actually the Corvette and XLR use Balsa wood in the floorpan for lightweight structure

62vetteefp · January 2007

You are definitely in the minority.

british_rover · January 2007

You could get a Morgan.

Someone around where I live has one that I see about once a month.

sls002 · January 2007

What does it hold together? Is it actually the floor?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

That's a design I hope GM never gets ahold of :P

Motor Trend was high on gas fumes I think.

62vetteefp · January 2007

It is sandwiched between thin metal in the floor.

british_rover · January 2007

Yeah the Morgan is gorgeous. Not sure what year the one around me is though. I have never seen it up close to take a guess and they all look the same to me.

lokki · January 2007

RE:the Morgan

Mr_Shiftright:

That's a design I hope GM never gets ahold of :P

Oh, but they did, they did! Of course, like all of their concept cars, it got changed a little when it went to production.

sls002 · January 2007

So, it probably is a sound deadener, as well as adding to the floor stucture.

bumpy · January 2007

I actually do like those wacky boogers. I wonder if a RB26DETT would fit under that hood?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I actually shopped the HHR when I was buying a new car---but alas, it handled and braked like an Army Deuce and a Half---how did they DO that?

I think that Morgan is downright WEIRD.

british_rover · January 2007

Probably but why would you want to replace that wonderful Buick/Rover alumimium V8...

bumpy · January 2007

So I could swap it into a '66 Corvair :P. The original Buick version only weighed maybe 50 pounds more than the 'vair mill.

rockylee · January 2007

lemko,

I fully expect we will see a version of the SLS interior on the next STS. I wished readerrread was here to give us some good interior images of that car again.

Rocky

bumpy · January 2007

This should hold you over for a bit.

rockylee · January 2007

Thank-you bumpy. I need to go get a napkin to wipe the drool running out of my mouth.

Rocky

sls002 · January 2007

I think that it looks much like the 2007 SRX interior, except that the console runs all the way into the back seat.

louiswei · January 2007

Rocky, you'll see me in that car if:

1. I am in China (no brainer here)
2. I have a Chauffeur

lemko · January 2007

Wow, that is beautiful! If the STS is going to have an interior like that, I don't think I can hold off until 2010 to purchase my next ride! Love that bold grille! Love the rear console too! Very very classy!

mediapusher · January 2007

Is that what we're getting for the next American Cadillac STS? (China SLS)

louiswei · January 2007

No, the SLS is just an extended version of the STS and only sold in China.

nvbanker · January 2007

How do they do that? It's a Cobalt!! Like the PT is a Neon, you could fix those issues, but GM would be the last one to do it, even if the price would allow it. I also like the HHR, and if I wanted a Cobalt, I'd buy the HHR version.

british_rover · January 2007

Forget something???

aldw · January 2007

Next refresh should have interior similar or identical to the SLS, just without the rear center console.

tommyg12 · January 2007

Talking about service departments....my area has a "motor mile" with several new and remodeled dealerships. The Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Mercedes, etc are incredibly nice, yet Cadillac sales/service is pushed to the corner of a very small Chevrolet dealer. Is this the norm around the country? The car brings in buyers (most cases), but how can Caddy convince the most pampered Lexus/BMW type to switch marques? Shouldn't a high end marque have a standalone dealership?

snakeweasel · January 2007

Not sure about your neck of the woods but here in the Chicago area I cannot think of a Cadillac dealer that is not a stand alone dealership with its own service area. Their show rooms are very nice on par with any other luxury dealership and better than most low and mid level car dealerships.

62vetteefp · January 2007

Cadillac is not dualed with Chevrolet anywhere that I know of except in small towns out in the country and service large areas. Are you in a small town? Seems strange.

Cadillac normally, if dualed, are with Saab and/or Hummer.

sls002 · January 2007

Here, the largest town for 300 miles in any direction, over 50,000 in the city limits, 100,000 or so around and in the city, has had a Cadillac_Oldsmobile dealership for a very long time. The other dealer within a 100 miles was also an Oldsmobile_Cadillac dealer. After Olds was discontinued (flopped?), the dealership aquired the Pontiac_Buick dealership and moved their GMC line their. However, GM/Cadillac required that the Cadillac line be moved to the Chevy dealer, where is is now. The other dealer is continuing on with Cadillac_GMC.

Checking on the Cadillac dealers more than 100 miles away, but still within 200 or so miles, reveals most of them as full line dealers, that is not only Chevy, but also Buick and Pontiac as well as GMC.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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