Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Hmmm...I beg to differ on that.

Chevy-Cadillac is quite common here in California. Just two off the top of my head, in large metro areas are Stewart Cad/Chevy in Colma (Burlingame near San Francisco) and Graham Cad/Chevy in Santa Barbara. We also have Cadillac/Mazda (BIG dealer) in Santa Cruz.

If you google these two keywords "cadillac chevrolet" you will get pages and pages of Cadillac--Chevy duals.

The two dealers I mentioned follow the pattern someone else noticed...large Chevy showrooms and smaller separate Cadillac showrooms...which is probably a good idea. But the service areas are the same of course.

interestingly, the Mazda dealer has Caddies and Mazdas side by side.

fintail · January 2007

My local dealer is Caddy/Buick/Pontiac/GMC

The smaller town where my mom lives had a Caddy/Olds/Buick/GMC/Honda, but then it changed hands and is soley Honda...I dunno if the Caddy went to the Chevy dealer (who also owns the Ford franchise) or if it just vanished altogether.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

It would be interesting to know what regions/cities are Cadillac's biggest sellers. I know San Francisco isn't, because I never see these cars very much in the Bay Area and the dealers all look a bit forelorn. I bet Florida, Vegas, San Diego, Palm Desert, Detroit, etc. Retirement strongholds.

But you know, I don't really know.

louiswei · January 2007

In Atlanta Caddy has stand-alone dealership.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I'm sure there are some cities that could support a stand-alone Cadillac dealership no problem. It would be a tough row to hoe where I live....unless of course the stand-alone is a factory-owned store and they are supporting the rent just to have presence on a prestige auto row. It's like spending money on advertising. The big dealer in SF proper is Ellis Brooks and he sells the whole GM range, including trucks.

fintail · January 2007

It aint Seattle, I know that. Although the Caddy dealers here don't have any bad reps that I know of, anyway.

Luckily this place doesn't sell Caddy

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I think whichever Cadillac dealers are selling the most SUVs are the ones prospering--that seems to be Cadillac's sweet spot right now---the trucks.

bigo08 · January 2007

I've seen a few stand alone Cadillac dealers here So Cali.. as Well as Chevy

62vetteefp · January 2007

As I said the preferred dualing is:
Cadillac/Saab/Hummer
Pontiac/GMC/Buick
Chevrolet
Saturn

BUT they are all independent and can do what they want but this is what GM is pushing for in markets that can handle it. If a Cadillac dealer cannot stand alone and make money then it will dual with somebody else. Many of the duals were done many years ago and it will take time.

Here is a presentation that explains it.

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/IROL/84/84530/presentations/gm_080906L- aNeve.pdf

allargon · January 2007

In the Bay Area no one drives American cars and no mechanics know how to properly fix them. It's amazing.

In Austin, the Cadillac dealership and showroom is on par with BMW and Lexus. However, it has a Buick and a Saturn dealership in separate buildings on the same large lot. (No Chevy/Pontiac/GMC crap) The worst luxury dealerships here in Austin are a tossup between the Infiniti dealership (They know it's crappy and are building a new showroom.) and the north Austin Acura dealership. (I refused to buy a TL because that dealership scared me too much. The Toyota dealership is better. The Lexus dealership is, of course, top notch!)

laurasdada · January 2007

On an "Automile" southwest of Boston, there is a Caddy/Hummer dealer. Which I don't think has a great reputation for customer service, see below. And there are stand-alone Caddy dealers around Boston.

My father-in-law, having retired, decided to trade up from his truck to a Caddy. Went to the above mentioned Caddy/Hummer delaer ready to buy. He was treated so badly that he drove 3 miles further south to the Lexus dealer. He's now happily driving an AWD GS300. The Caddy sale should have been a slam-dunk. Way to confirm the stereotype, Caddy of Norwood!

62vetteefp · January 2007

there is a Caddy/Hummer dealer. Which I don't think has a great reputation for customer service, see below..... Way to confirm the stereotype

Per JD power customer service index (dealer maintenance and service during first 3 years of ownership) the top 4 are Lincoln, Cadillac, Saturn and then Lexus. Since Hummer is less than 3 years old it is not listed. Toyota is well below the average.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005092&searc- h=1

For sales satisfaction it is Jaguar, Cadillac, Lincoln, Porsche, Lexus, Saturn. Toyota is well below the average again.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006250

62vetteefp · January 2007

One of the discussions on this forum should be what does the "standard of the world" mean.

In my above post Cadillac and Lincoln both score as close to the top in "standard of the world" for sales, service and maintenance at the dealerships.

For Customer retention it has a way to go to be the standard per this quantitative measurement. It measures the percentage of new-vehicle buyers and lessees who replace a vehicle that was previously purchased new with a new vehicle from the same nameplate.

The order is Lexus, Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet, Hyundai,Ford and then Cadillac, MB, Subaru, BMW.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005249

62vetteefp · January 2007

Cadillac scores 7th in Initial quality well above industry average but cannot be said to be the "standard of the world". But then again there is not much difference between the top brands. MB/BMW are well below the average.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006082

In long term dependibility (3 years) it is Lexus, Mercury, Buick,Cadillac, Toyota and again not a lot of differences between the top players.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133

62vetteefp · January 2007

Automotive Performance, Execution and Layout (APEAL) Study shows that here Cadillac can improve. It is 12th and below the industry leaders of Lexus, MB, BMW and others. Perhaps improving here could make Cadillac more deserving of "standard of the world"?

There are basically two schools of thought among consumers in determining which new-vehicle model to buy, said Parker. Many consumers are looking for a painless, trouble-free ownership experience, which, as we find in IQS, is certainly important. However, there is a large group of buyers who are most interested in things like comfort, style and performance. This group is often willing to put up with a few quality snags to get a vehicle they truly feel passionate about. For this group of consumers, there is more to an appealing vehicle than a lack of problemseven a lack of design problems.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006100

plekto · January 2007

JD Powers is meaningless to most actual owners because they don't factor in long-term costs or reliability. They also don't weigh the problems properly, IMO. A door seal isn't a big deal - but a dead alternator at 20K is.

lemko · January 2007

...is currently dualed with a Toyota/Scion franchise! However, they are planning to build a new stand-alone dealership a few miles away. The current site used to be a stand-alone Cadillac dealership, but the land on which their Toyota franchise stood was bought by developers and the old building demolished.

Most Cadillac dealers in the Philadelphia area are stand-alone. However, in small towns upstate, they are combined with other GM marques. One dealership in Carbon County sells the entire GM line-up and even has a factory that builds fire engines!

lokki · January 2007

This series of posts about JD Powers is fascinating.

I find it very interesting that having the best dealer experiences don't translate into sales for either Lincoln or Jaguar.

However, I can say from personal experience that I don't like the BMW dealer experience nearly as much as I did the Acura experience, but I prefer the BMW ownership experience over owning an Acura.

Since I know I'm going to be asked, I'd say that the ownership experience includes the way the car performs, the way the dealer treats me and handles repairs, and the feeling of the quality of the car.

Admittedly, I'm probably not representative in this regard. Back in the 70's I owned (and loved) a couple of Alfa Romeo's.

While they really weren't any trouble as long as you kept them maintained, there was always a certain terror factor in owning them, caused by the certain knowledge that if you broke down any distance from your mechanic, you might die there before you'd find someone who could work on the car.

Despite this, I really enjoyed the cars. They were beautiful, and beautiful to drive. They were a pleasure that made me overlook the problems.

I guess the nearest comparable today would be the Mini. A not-so-great quality car that is very popular.

sls002 · January 2007

What matters to an "actual owner" is how his "actual dealer" treats him. It doesn't matter how good or bad any brand is in a statistical survey, what matters is how good a specific dealer is to their customers. In my town (city :confuse: ) we have one Cadillac_Chevy dealer, one Buick_Pontiac_GMC dealer, one toyota dealer (actually owned by the Chevy dealer), one Ford_Mercury_Lincoln dealer (who owned the Olds_Caddy_GMC dealership, and now ownes the Buick_Pontiac_GMC dealership). J. D. Powers surveys won't say who is really best here, one really has to sample all of them. I really liked my old Buick dealer, when he was a stand alone, but when the Pontiac dealer took over Buick, I was less satisfied. The Olds_Caddy dealer was OK, but not great. The Chevy_Cadillac dealer is better I think. I'm still waiting for them to find a program SRX though.

sls002 · January 2007

I think that it is important to remember that J. D. Powers serves the industry, not the public. They are in business to help the industry understand what they are doing right or wrong on average.

The salesman who is helping me with finding the program SRX used to work for the old Cadillac dealer, and told me that Cadillac was not pleased with their performance as a dealership, so that is why they lost the franchise when they took over the Buick_Pontiac dealer. He says that the Chevy dealer is doing much better in terms of sales, which was the primary problem.

sls002 · January 2007

For me the nearest Hummer dealer is nearly 200 miles away, and there are no SAAB dealers to be found by the dealer locater (so more than 200 miles away).

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

To me, a CRITICAL part of any notion of "standard of the world" has to be, must be.....envy.....or use a nicer word...call it desire....aspiration.

There's very little of that with Cadillac right now....kids don't have Cadillac posters on their walls and young men starting their first job don't stroll into the parking lot and point to the Cadillac and say "someday, that's the car I'll own when I'm rich".

He may start with a Mustang, then a Corvette, or a BMW M3, but will he pause at the top of the mountain as a mature affluent driver, in a Cadillac? Don't think so.

sls002 · January 2007

As I recall, back in the sixties, when I was younger, the desirable cars were Chevies, Fords or perhaps a Plymouth-Dodge. Obviously with the big engine. Later on, the muscle cars (GTO, etc) were the cars to have. Kids really look more at the sports cars, and Cadillac (until recently) has not had one. Given a choice of an XLR or the Corvette, there is one obvious answer (Z06).

Now, older people (over 30) may start thinking Cadillac at some point, but kids?

In the early sixties, the Chrysler 300 letter series (the G actually) did catch my eye, as did the 63 Buick Riviera, however, my first car was a 69 Pontiac GTO.

bumpy · January 2007

The Zeppelin clip in the ads was getting a bit long in the tooth, but I don't think anyone who would recognize a clip from The Stone Roses is in the market for a Caddy.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Well in the 50s Cadillac was an aspiration to young people because all the Hollywood types had them, Eisenhower drove around in one, Sinatra, Las Vegas....the car's image was everywhere in the media. A Benz was still a car made by the "enemy" and nobody of course ever saw a Japanese car.

Cadillac-engined cars raced at Lemans and were used in hot rods ( a common transplant was the "Studellac")

Magazines showed lush Cadillac ads with gorgeous women in gowns marching down marble stairways to their Cadillac (door held open by a man in a tux, of course). She wore lots of jewels and furs and the car was airbrushed in a way that it also glimmered and vibrated the smell of money.

It was quite impressive. I don't think a modern manufacturer, even Rolls or Maybach or whoever, could get away with that kind of media blitz anymore. But at the time, every American always knew what the most expensive car in the world was (or thought they knew) and what rich people drove---a Cadillac of course. It was a no brainer then to ask a kid that question.

Sure the kid wanted a '55 Chevy or Ford but he knew what kidn of car a celebrity, a star athlete or a brain surgeon would drive.

imidazol97 · January 2007

>There's very little of that with Cadillac right now....kids don't have Cadillac posters on their walls and young men starting their first job don't stroll into the parking lot and point to the Cadillac and say "someday, that's the car I'll own when I'm rich

It certainly appears to me that many young people do idolize the Cadillac SUVs because of the exposure in the music world.

It's Cadillac's job to get the other vehicles in their line to again be something that those early buyers look to for later purchases when they no longer want an Escalade (Tahoe, GMC Denali, I may have names wrong). The current lines need to have more appeal and identification pushed onto the public opinion by advertising, placement, etc.

Maybe this is regional but this is my observation and conclusion.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I don't think the Escalade image is quite the best thing for Cadillac, but it's certainly better than nothing, I'll grant you.

lemko · January 2007

There's very little of that with Cadillac right now....kids don't have Cadillac posters on their walls and young men starting their first job don't stroll into the parking lot and point to the Cadillac and say "someday, that's the car I'll own when I'm rich".

Are you kidding? When I was a kid, I had plenty of pictures of Cadillacs, Mercedes-Benzes, and Rolls-Royces on the walls. Heck, when I was 12, I had a t-shirt with a 1977 Coupe DeVille on it. When I was 24 and got a huge promotion at work, I immediately proceeded to the Cadillac dealer and bought a new Brougham!

fintail · January 2007

Yeah, and I was a kid who drooled over W126 MB when I was 10...guys like us are a rare breed.

lemko · January 2007

Back in the day, I got a flyer from the Philadelphia Auto Show that folded out into a nice-sized poster that showed the entire 1991 Mercedes lineup with specs below each model. I had it on the wall in one of the rooms in my old place.

fintail · January 2007

I had a small one of those, in some literature for my old W126. Even in model specific brochures they would have a data sheet for all models.

I had a poster for the new 1990 SL showing the SL through its generations...but those cars were liked by younger people.

I have a large (maybe 4' x 2.5') poster from the MB museum in Stuttgart that shows every MB passenger car, race car, and truck from the beginning through the W110 fintail. I suspect it was made for the MB 75th anniversary stuff in 1961. Got it at a thrift store for 50 cents.

lemko · January 2007

Nice find for 50 cents! I loved those old Cadillac ads that would show jewelry from places like Tiffany, Cartier, or Van Cleef & Arpels forming the crest and/or "V." I have a few of them framed and hanging on the walls of my basement den.

fintail · January 2007

Yep, I have seen those ads. Very classy.

Back in the day I would buy boxes of old National Geographics at yard sales for like a buck or two, get an x-acto knife and cut out all the car and coke ads, and bundle them up and sell them in my mom's antique mall booth. I didn't do too poorly for a teenager, although I am sure someone will cry foul at cutting up the magazines.

sls002 · January 2007

As a youngster in the 50's I sort of recall that convertibles were the cars that single adult males would buy if they wanted something flashy. In the early 60's, when I was in high school, the Thunderbird (convertible) was a dream car maybe. The Mustang was an attainable goal though, when it came out.

One point to consider: Cadillac was GM's top of the line make, and, after World War Two, did not really have a range of models. Chevy was low end, Buick higher middle range, with Cadillac top end.

Mercedes has offered a range of cars, from entry level (whatever that is), a middle range and a top end. The Mercedes top end is well beyond what a Cadillac is.

What I see Cadillac doing now is offering a broader range:
CTS is entry level, and may appeal to the sports sedan crowd, but needs a coupe and convertible for the youngsters.
STS is higher end sports sedan
DTS is for older, long time Caddy owners, a dying generation
The SUVs appeal to a range of buyers.

imidazol97 · January 2007

I agree it's not the best image for the future of Cadillac. It would be better if CTS were the symbol for the "young" group that embraces the Escalades and similar vehicles.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

I wasn't talking about when you were 12 though...I said "there's very little of that with Cadillac right now".

In 1977, Cadillac still hadn't gone through its worst disasters, and Benz was not yet predominate in the luxury car field...Benz was still ironing out its own problems with balky carburetors and transmissions that would pop your hat off during shifts and a dearth of V8 motors.

sls002 · January 2007

I think in the 60's Cadillac was considered the car for the rich, or the Lincoln. Imperial was it for the Chrysler owners, but Imperial was fading.

Now, I would say kids probably like BMW. I am not sure that they know why they like BMW. Or, if they look at sports figures/Music stars, then perhaps what they drive. But I am not sure that there is a difinitive vehicle anymore.

lokki · January 2007

In 1967 I really wanted a Shelby 350 if I could have any car I wanted at the time, but when we'd talk about what we thought a successful man would drive, we'd choose something different.

I recall a conversation with a friend back in 1967 about what we wanted in our futures - the High School kids dreaming about where they'd be in life by middle age.

I wanted (expected)

A good mid-management level job in a major corporation somewhere.

A nice brick house, perhaps with a pool but not necessarily ( I knew how much work they are) and I didn't envision the invention of the "pool boy"-

A trip to Europe on vacation every year or two -

A new Lincoln every 2 or 3 years. I thought Lincolns were 'classier' than Cadillacs - more "old money elegant" if you will. The only Mercedes I knew belonged to a dentist who was a friend of my dad's. I knew it was a very good car, but it seemed kind of like an exercise machine - a very good thing to have and very practical, but not something you'd really enjoy or make your friends use.

nvbanker · January 2007

I am not sure that they know why they like BMW. Or, if they look at sports figures/Music stars, then perhaps what they drive. But I am not sure that there is a difinitive vehicle anymore.

I think you're right - BMW is THE car everyone young with a professional bent aspires to - but only because that's what successful attorneys drive - the Mercedes seems to appeal to a little different demo - little more ethnic, and a little older.... Personally, I think the Mercedes S Class is the ultimate, but that's just my opinion.

lokki · January 2007

Of course, that's not to say that the Caddy was BAD Looking - not at all....

fintail · January 2007

hehe

Oh come on, let's make it like for like. Not that the Caddy and Lincoln aren't lovely cars...but this has some appeal too:

That lowline fintail was probably priced like an Oldsmobile, too.

lokki · January 2007

Yeah, I MIGHT have picked a prettier picture for the Mercedes....

But I'd never seen one of those.... only the ones that looked like dental appliances But I HAD seen those Lincolns and Caddy's.:shades:

Still I concede the point... :P

fintail · January 2007

I see where you are coming from...back in the day there were 100 of those low-flair sedans on the road for every elegant coupe or cabrio.

The MB wouldn't have appealed to most Lincoln or Caddy people anyway, with its 140hp 2.2L I6 that demands revs for performance.

sls002 · January 2007

At one time I thought that the Fleetwood Sixty Special was the ultimate Cadillac, this was the 71-76 models. Then I drove a used one, a 1973, which seemed so much bigger than my 71 Riviera, that I could tell after 2 blocks that I did not want one.

autoboy16 · January 2007

I kind of agree... See the Escalade is one of the few vehicles keeping SUV sales up! But it shouldn't be the "face" of cadillac!

Thats why I can't stress the BLS issue enough. Its small, its efficient, its sporty, its good looking., and relatively inexpensive. Thats hard to come by in many vehicles today.

Other than that, cadillac needs to bring back a 4passenger convertible. Bmw has 2, Lexus, Mercedes, Audi, and Volvo have 1. Where are Acura, and Cadillac?? A Epsilon Cabrio would be good but a sigma convertible would be PERFECT for cadillac!! Hopefully if priced between $30-45k, would make it a seller!!

-Cj

Mr_Shiftright · January 2007

Americans hated those buzzy Mercedes 6 cylinder engines though, nor did they much lust after that old-fashioned Benz classic heaviness (the car as Marble Temple), at least until the 1970 3.5 V-8 "low grille 'verts came out. Now THAT was a snappy car that a rich man could flaunt (as Americans love to do). In the 60s, the joke in Detroit was "Does Benz even HAVE a styling department?).

Benz really didn't steal the luxury car market from Cadillac at all. Cadillac gave it away to Benz, leaving the well-to-do no real alternative BUT a Benz or a Rolls of dubious reliability.

It's very much like what happened to the British motorcycle industry. The minute the Japanese 750 multi-cylinder bikes came out in 1969 or so, the Brits just rolled over and died without a fight. These world-famous bikes virtually disappeared from the face of the earth in 3 to 5 years!

Cadillac did the same thing in the early 1980s. It wasn't even a good slugfest. It was a surrender. I remember being a witness to it and I could hardly believe it was happening.

It would be like Lexus saying "oh, we give up".

rockylee · January 2007

I kinda like the rear console idea. I only have "4" in my family so it would work......Well until my kids played with the numerous buttons on the rear center console. :surprise:

Rocky

merc1 · January 2007

Would you believe that I have every model brochure from about 1986 onwards? The W124 E is what started the love affair.

M

fintail · January 2007

I just got a brochure for the E55 for about $1.60 (plus shipping)...

I still remember the first W124 I saw.

plekto · January 2007

I had a 1967 230S. 3000lbs, thanks to the ue of unibody construction and crumple zones.

That's a LOT less than the domestic sedans at the time, let alone what the Caddy weighed. And the I-6 engines were anything but buzzy. Mine was smooth as any modern V6.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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