Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

62vetteefp · April 2007

Uh, the SRX and the new CTS interiors use nicer materials and better/tighter gaps than the DTS in the interior.

Now you may not like the styling of the CTS/SRX but I like them a heck of a lot better than the DTS. I like the way the center flows into the console which the DTS does not do. The new CTS does even a better job of this.

http://www.cadillac.com/cadillacjsp/model/gallery.jsp?model=srx&year=2007

http://www.cadillac.com/allnewcts/

gagrice · April 2007

Let me ask you a question. Is Cadillac getting a lot of complaints about the harder seats in the 2007 Escalade? Both the SRX and Escalade seemed a lot harder than the previous model Escalade. Will they offer a more conventional seating option?

autoboy16 · April 2007

there is a whole difference in interior quality between the cts and DTS. Just look at the steering wheel. The DTS has a 1980's vintage wheel. Even the 2003 CTS with the cluttered buttons has a better steering wheel.

-Cj

62vetteefp · April 2007

I do not know.
Can somebody compare the hardness to the CTS or STS? I would imagine that they have modified the Slade seats to be more"euro sporty" like they have the CTS/STS.

rayainsw · April 2007

Pontiac is supposed to get more RWD models.

Since this is not a Pontiac forum, I will limit my comments  but Ill point out here that GM has officially announced the RWD ( apparent ) replacement for the PONTIAC top of the line sedans ( Bonneville & Grand Prix )  and it will be the G8.

Some production ( as well as show car ) details here:

http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07chicago/brands/pontiac/inde- x.html

Aside from a somewhat higher weight than Id prefer to see, the specifications suggest to me that the G8 may become a viable Sport Sedan.

With respect to Caddys marketing strategy: I wonder if Caddy is going to concede the Sport Sedan segment to Pontiac?

The V8 version of the G8, with RWD and a version of the 6.0L in my Corvette and a nearly identical automatic trans. ( 6L80 ) - and a 6 speed manual trans. to be available, does this mean Caddy will again re-focus more on Luxury? With some Sport available  if you insist. And are willing to pay STS-v or XLR-v prices.

I doubt the interiors of the production G8 will quite match the best Caddy interiors, yet my ** GUESS ** is that the G8 V8 will provide acceleration slightly better than the current, 2008 STS V8. Probably high 13s, with the automatic  and perhaps mid-13s with the manual. Published tests of the Holden sedan ( that is virtually identical to the G8 that well see here early next year ) also seem to indicate that this will be a serious competitor in the Sport Sedan category.

If the G8 V8 is designated GT ( seems most likely, as this point in time ) and given the current model designations Pontiac seems to have standardized on, that would appear to offer 2 higher equipment levels  a GTP and GXP. This seems to present the opportunity for Pontiac to bring the equipment & interior refinement ( ? ) level up. And add more Luxury features. Twice. In the future.

Will this mean that if you want a RWD Sport Sedan, with some level of luxury, youll be expected to shop at the Pontiac store? And if you want Luxury  youll shop at the Caddy store? Will the CTS-v be offered with an automatic trans. this time around?

So many questions.

We shall see . . .
- Ray
Somewhat confused by GM & Caddys current & projected Marketing Strategy.

gagrice · April 2007

That is what the salesman said with a shrug of the shoulders. It seems to be selling well even with high gas prices. Though in the reviews there are grumblings. I believe I would pass, as I just don't think it would be comfortable driving cross country. I could be wrong as my Passat was similar and not bad for the one long trip we took in it.

sls002 · April 2007

I guess if 0-60 performance is important to you, and being able to burn up your tires quickly, then perhaps the G8 with the oversized engine is good. I would rather have a smaller, more fuel efficient engine. Motor Trend did a test down under of the 6 liter engine and got 0-60 in under 6 seconds. What I would like to see is a wagon version of the G8 with a direct injection 3.6 and six speed automatic.

The heavier SRX will do 0-60 in just over 6 seconds with a smaller engine.

jkr2106 · April 2007

With respect to Caddys marketing strategy: I wonder if Caddy is going to concede the Sport Sedan segment to Pontiac?

Actually, I think you raise a valid point. We've all heard how Lutz fancies Pontiac a poor-man's BMW. Well, maybe That would free Cadillac to go in the Mercedes direction. Personally, I like that idea better (just MHO)

sls002 · April 2007

The G8 is a big car, with similar shoulder and hip space as the DTS. I do think that Cadillac should move toward being more luxury. I think that the CTS, being smaller, is going to have an edge in handling. The G8 will have better acceleration.

bumpy · April 2007

I think that the CTS, being smaller, is going to have an edge in handling.

The 2008 CTS isn't any smaller than the G8.

CTS: length 191.6", width 72.5", height 58"
G8: length 192.8", width 74.8", height 58.1"

Curb weight is about the same for both in the 3800+ pound range. Spending the extra 10 grand on the Cadillac gets you a badge, some aluminum suspension bits, and a shorter final drive ratio.

sls002 · April 2007

The G8's length is 196: see:
http://www.media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/07chicago/brands/pontiac/- - index.html
Weight, with the V8 is 4000 lbs, but the CTS V6 is heavy.
The CTS's wheelbase is a bit shorter by nearly 1.5 inches.

The G8 will be a lot of car for the money. My guess is that a well equipped G8 will run well over $30,000. A basic V6 G8 may be a good deal compared to the basic V6 CTS.

62vetteefp · April 2007

Firm well designed seats, like in the VW's, can be very comfortable. Plushy, poorly designed soft seats can be uncomfortable. It takes about 30 minutes to warm up a seat and see how it does for a long trip.

62vetteefp · April 2007

I forsee similary equipped G8 vs. CTS to be about $8,000 apart with the Cadillac having much more standard/available "uplevel" features which will raise the price significantly over the G8.

sls002 · April 2007

Good seats should be comfortable for an all day drive. I find that my SLS's seats are good after driving all day. I do not find that I am changing the postion periodically to try and get more comfortable.

mariner7 · April 2007

For all the complaints that Japan is a closed market, on a percentage basis, Mercedes and BMW sell nearly the same level of cars in Japan as they do in the U.S.

They don't keep German luxury sedans out, so why should they keep American cars out? After all, we're much more important trading and political partners to them. That complaint is strictly American, the Europeans don't have trouble selling in Japan. Cars never seen here, like Fiat & Peugeot, are sold there.

The Japanese auto mag I sometimes look at has lots of pics of premium German sedans, Italian exotics, regular European cars like VW and Peugeot. The only American car in that mag is the 300C. My guess is if Detroit can deal in more style, they will have more success exporting to Japan.

The article: http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_japan_isnt_closed/

rayainsw · April 2007

"G8: length 192.8", width 74.8", height 58.1"

Those are the numbers MT quoted - from the Holden version.
The G8 will have a slightly different nose & tail  likely longer due to Pontiac styling and US crash requirements.
- Ray
Ready for my G8 Test Drive. . .

rayainsw · April 2007

I guess if 0-60 performance is important to you, and being able to burn up your tires quickly, then perhaps the G8 with the oversized engine is good. I would rather have a smaller, more fuel efficient engine.

My priorities actually lie more in the 5  60, 35  70, 50 - 80 realm, as I have little interest in generating tire smoke. And I do admit to being a Torque Addict, but:

The 3.6L V6 being offered in the G8 suggests that GM \ Pontiac aggress with you. My guess is that they will sell a lot more V6s than V8s.

I also have a somewhat irrational ( but very strongly held ) preference for the ability to cruise at high speeds at low engine RPM. My Corvette, with 6.0L V8 and the 6L80 trans.  geared the same as the 6L50, as used in the STS V8s  cruises at 1550 RPM at 70 MPH. With a somewhat more aggressive final drive ratio ( 2.92 vs 2.56 in the Corvette ) that would still mean less than 1800 RPM at 70 MPH in the V8 G8. Assuming a similar rear tire rolling radius. ( They look to be very close - within approx. 0.5%. )

I have absolutely no interest in any wagon version.

Anyway  by smaller engine here I presume that you refer to the NorthStar 4.4L V8?

I do like & respect the NorthStar  but it does not produce either the low RPM grunt or the peak TQ that I lust after in typical daily street driving. Extrapolating ( a really fancy word for guessing here ) from the 2007 LS2 HP & TQ plots, I expect that the L76 at peaks of 362\391 HP\TQ will produce 300 lb-ft of TQ as low as 1500 RPM. ( The LS2 produces 300 at around 1200 RPM. ) Rising to around 330 at 2000 RPM, 355 at 3000 ROM, 375 at 4000 RPM and reaching a TQ peak ( according to GM ) of 391 at 4400.

The 4.4L NorthStar needs over 4000 RPM to exceed 300 lb-ft. At 1500-2000 it generates around 265 and at 2500-3000 it generates around 275.

Point is that to push around close to 4,000#s, I want what the 6.0L supplies.

The G8 will be a lot of car for the money. My guess is that a well equipped G8 will run well over $30,000. Agreed * 2. Though a G8 V8 with no options seems destined to be a very low $30s Sedan. And a lot of car from a performance standpoint at that price.

I hasten to add that I dont really see the G8 as a Caddy CTS or STS competitor  at least in every respect.

Yet if Pontiac provides what I perceive as a reasonable quality interior, an aggressive price ( Lutz strongly suggests that this is likely  in context of previous pricing mistakes, re: the GTO ), excellent ride and handling, and reasonable fuel economy in the Real World. . . Well, I will have to take it seriously.

I question how well the G8 will deal with the near 4000# curb weight, but I am forced to keep an open mind here.

And I am looking at the G8 largely because Caddy has not indicated that theyll be sending anything Ill find Very Interesting my way, anytime soon. ( sigh )

- Ray
Unreasonably disappointed in Caddy  SOW or not . . .

sls002 · April 2007

The 4.4 northstar actually has over 300 ft-lbs from just off idle to peak horsepower:
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/Premium- - %20V/2007_44L_LC3_STSV.pdf

In any case, the critical issue is how much torque at the wheels, which depends on gearing and engine output. What one needs is an ideal mix of gearing and engine torque. Engines that are too big will burn too much fuel.

rayainsw · April 2007

The 4.4 northstar actually has over 300 ft-lbs from just off idle to peak horsepower:
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/HPT%20Library/Premium- - - - %20V/2007_44L_LC3_STSV.pdf

My mis-type: I was referring to the 4.6L n/a version  the one without the supercharger. The one in the STS V8. Not the one in the XLR-v & STS-v.

Comparison with the 4.4L version, given the cost & complexity & apparent fuel (in-)efficiency of that motor would not be appropriate.

Mea culpa.
- Ray
Sorry . . .

sls002 · April 2007

Well, my SLS will get about 29 MPG cruising at 70 MPH, which is about 2000 RPMs. With the six speed automatic, the STS, which has a 3.42:1 axle on all models/trims/whatever, should have a decent combination of performance and fuel consumption. The SRX, with the six speed, will cruise at 70 MPH with the engine running at 1800 RPMs. Not sure what sort of fuel consumption can be expected though.

nvbanker · April 2007

The 08 interior is a big improvement - but completely mimics the Lexus interiors - only the guage cluster is a bit different - resembles the Acura more than Lexus. Nice of them to finally get all the friggin' black off of the dash. Some color, wood, makes it luxurious. This is a significant difference, and may match the luxury of the DTS now, as you say.

62vetteefp · April 2007

My opinion is that with the Buick lambda a luxury edition of that platform, and with the GMC and Saturn versions, adding yet another one is not going to do GM that much good. A Cadillac version would take sales away from Buick I think. A Cadillac lambda might replace the small Escalade if sense were something to consider.

Small Escalade??? :P

I really doubt Cadillac would mess with the Escalade and move it to the Lamda platfrom. Way too much risk and downside to do that.

But the SRX sells about as many vehicles as the STS and is in a hot market. The Lamda is too close in size to the Escalade to use it as the platform for the SRX.

To be competitive, GM needs a smaller CUV to compete with the X5's/RX's/etc. The only platform that I see that Cadillac could use is the Sigma. Perhaps they will make it more SUV like and less car looking.

The only other possiblity is to use the Theta premium architecture but this may be a bit smaller than desired. But it would be closer to the X5.

rayainsw · April 2007

Quoting myself in a prior post: And I am looking at the G8 largely because Caddy has not indicated that theyll be sending anything Ill find Very Interesting my way, anytime soon. ( sigh )

I have seen the 2008 STS Order Guide.
I was ( for just a moment ) encouraged by the wording of:

RPO = PDV = NEW! V8 Performance Collection includes
(CF5) power sunroof, (YQ4) audio system
with navigation, (Y53) Driver Awareness
Package and (K59) Adaptive Cruise Control

This is Caddy Marketings idea of a Performance Collection? Ha-rumph.
[[ Thatd be a rhetorical question. ]]

LSD and ZF Premium Steering still only available as part of the top option groups. ( And neither is available with AWD, if that matters to anyone. )

And RPO = PCZ = Performance Handling Package, includes
(QAF) P255/45R18 front, P255/45R18 rear,
Michelin Pilot Sport summer only tires, (P73)
18" x 8.5" (45.6 cm x 21.6 cm) chrome wheels
and (J56) Brembo brakes

. . . is still available ( as additional cost option ) only on the top option groups. And not with AWD on the V6. ( sigh )

To me, this confirms that Caddy is really only focused on Luxury. That appears to be the highest priority. It looks to me like Performance is being treated as something of an afterthought, at best. At least on the STS  where I once thought Caddy had the best chance of capitalizing on the fact that no American company was marketing a serious V8 RWD Sport Sedan.

Not a bad thing, in any absolute terms  but just really doesnt do it for me.
- Ray
Who had hoped Caddy could build & sell STSs as reasonably priced RWD V8 Sport Sedans . . .

sls002 · April 2007

I think Cadillac considers the STS their top of the line model, and they are trying to price the performance version as high as possible. The problem is that the STS is not quite worth the price with the interior as it is. Even if they repackaged stuff the way you would like, the price tag would probably be higher for the base car, and the performance stuff would be higher too, so you would probably still pay around $58,000.

sls002 · April 2007

My opinion is that the basic Yukon could be replaced with the Acadia, leaving the Yukon XL. Since a lot of people buy these to tow, they should offer the heavy duty transmission with the base, not just on the heavy duty 3/4 ton version. Or only offer the heavy duty one.

autoboy16 · April 2007

Don't forget that GM left room in the LAMBDA for a V8. Probably the one powering the Impala SS or Grand prix GXP.

I'm excited about a Acadia Denali, Redline [on the] Outlook

, or Enclave Super.

I hope chevy doesn't get a lambda. I hope GM polishes up the Equinox 1st. A 270hp 3.6lv6 and AWD sounds great for cadillac and chevy. Give it cadillacs new style, a 6speed automanual, AWD, and a price around $30k-$35k and gm has something for the RDX, X3, MKX, ect.

I'll call it the Cadillac JRX.

The Extend version with 7 passengers [used as Suzuki XL-7] could be the Equinox 7 or JRX 7
-Cj

-Cj

mediapusher · April 2007

Lexus has also put out some real crap cars like the GS and IS series

Gagrice-

I'd have to agree with you here. The first generation Lexus IS was nothing more than a cosmetically engineered Toyota Corolla. It wasn't bad, but it certainly was not worthy of the regal Lexus badge. Not surprsingly, I don't think they sold well. This is what happens when a company tries to appeal to every market, just like McDonalds has tried to do.

---mediapusher

mediapusher · April 2007

I was going to rent a Cadillac STS last weekend for a drive to San Diego but there were none available. So I rented a Chevrolet Impala with 6,000 miles on it. There have been complaints that my posts on this discussion group board regarding the quality of GM's products are delusional because gee, GM has changed for the better--- NOT. LOL!

After driving that piece of junk they call the Chevrolet Impala, I can see that very little if anything has changed when it comes to GM's sloppy craftsmanship and engineering, if that's what you want to call it. Below is a critique of things I noticed about the car:

1. Loose fitting body panels on the exterior and interior of the automobile

2. Serious problems with weight distribution and car body lean. This makes the car difficult to maneuver and handle. I'm 6'1 185lbs ok, so I know the weight shifting wasn't because of me.

3. "Retarded" lumbar support that focused on middle of back instead of small of back

4. Seats otherwise had no support and their ergonomics were terrible.

5. An annoying and noisy exhaust system that sounded similar to a crocodile mating call.

6. Flimsy and cheap hollow plastic finish on the interior. This was especially noticeable on the door locks.
The form and fit seemed ok this time. That was a shock.

7. The trunk axles had plastic sheaths on them...:\ Why?

Uhh people, I don't know what you call this, but this is not world class. It's mediocre at best. GM probably doesn't know how to build a precision crafted automobile like it's competition can. This car is supposed to compete with a Honda Accord sedan. There are some people that like the Chevrolet Impala and the other stuff that GM makes, fine. The Impala is one of GM's better selling automobiles; but don't try and convince me that the stuff GM makes is world class, because it just isn't true.

What really puzzles me is that GM makes fine stuff in other countries like China and Australia. I was visiting my kin in Australia last year, so I know what I'm talking about. Holden is the "Toyota" of Australia. Their cars are great. This leads me to believe that Holden is GM only because of an acquisition, however I could be wrong.

I've noticed the cheap interior of the current Cadillac CTS. I haven't had the opportunity to test drive this car. I've heard it drives nicely. But's what's with the embarrassingly cheap interior?-- almost to the point where it becomes offensive. That is not world class. World class means performing on a fine level in all categories and being made of fine or decent materials..It should at least be a "man-made diamond" and not "cubic zirconia"

It doesn't matter that the soon to be released 2008 CTS's interior is better, because the interior details are something that should not have been missed with the earlier models. These are the points that GM constantly misses.

Someone like me (and there are millions) isn't likely to buy a GM car even if their quality gets up to par, because of the massive ways they've exploited consumers of the U.S.A. in the past. After test driving the Chevrolet Impala on April 1st, 2007, now, it's really personal, however it's been personal for a long time.

mediapusher · April 2007

Imidazol97--

The first generation Lexus IS was actually a cosmetically engineered Toyota Corolla, and this was grotesquely noticeable. While the emotions you note seem to have a certain snobbish appeal, I'd have to agree with your marketing point. Toyota wants to be in all markets cause it means more cash in their pocket, hence the gross first generation Lexus IS
________________

I know when we parked next to one of those Yugo looking little IS hatchbacks my wife could not believe how far Lexus had gone down hill. In her eyes that was what Lexus was now selling and she wanted nothing to do with them. She has all the money.

mediapusher · April 2007

"The 3, 5 and 7 series have cheapened the BMW line."
_____________________________________

The new 6 and 7 series BMWs are so UGLY. I can't believe it. What were their designers smoking??? They remind me of that song, It sings like this---> (They call you MR. personality because you're so UGLY.....) except with the BMWs 6 and 7 series I would substitute the words like this....They say that it has personality because it's so ugly, it's so ugly!.....

rayainsw · April 2007

"don't try and convince me "
OK

bumpy · April 2007

The first generation Lexus IS was nothing more than a cosmetically engineered Toyota Corolla.

Toyota Altezza. The IS300 was a good car (except for being 500 pounds too heavy), but a sport-oriented 3-series fighter didn't fit with what Lexus was in the late '90s.

imidazol97 · April 2007

We would have been surprised if you had liked the base Impala.

mediapusher · April 2007

I was taken aback too when I saw a Cheapo Mercedes. The problem is, Mercedes got greedy. In the late 80's and early 90's they for the most part, priced themselves out of the U.S.A. market. That's when you started seeing advertisements presented for them by Cybill Shepherd on television.
__________________________

reference text:
Lexus is Toyota's answer for MB and BMW

That may be true. Though I don't remember BMW being very popular in the 1980s. I was taken back the first time I saw a cheapo Mercedes. Maybe MB needed to start a cheap car company to compete with Toyota. Or Maybe that is why they bought Chrysler. I don't see Cadillac in that mix. The only reason I even gave Cadillac a second thought was my search for the nicest SUV. I found their cars to be a lot nicer than my last Cadillac, a 1948 4 door with a big flathead V8 engine.

mediapusher · April 2007

imidazol97 -

Then how does the Impala sell so well, if even you would be surprised if I liked it? That car is supposed to compete with a Honda Accord? The surprising thing is, that according to GM it does compete and very well with it's competition. I believe them.

-- mediapusher?
__________________________

Replying to: mediapusher (Apr 04, 2007 8:02 pm)

We would have been surprised if you had liked the base Impala.

--imidazol97

mediapusher · April 2007

What do you mean, the Sigma cars bleak and plastic? That's GM's trade mark...LOL! They're not only bleak and plastic, it's cheap plastic in cars that are supposed to compete with Lexus and Mercedes. Give me a break (standard of the world)

mediapusher · April 2007

The DTS is a totally different breed (old school) and there are plenty of people who still like that kind of car. I don't understand why someone would chose a DTS over an STS, but then again I'm not from the baby boommer generation
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reference text::::::
Now you may not like the styling of the CTS/SRX but I like them a heck of a lot better than the DTS. I like the way the center flows into the console which the DTS does not do. The new CTS does even a better job of this.

mediapusher · April 2007

I don't understand. Why doesn't Cadillac get it? Make the interior top notch, the engine top notch, the performance and handling top notch, don't have loose gaps (some CTS models) ill fitting body panels, loose fit and finish in the interior, and please stop using cheap plastics. Cadillacs are supposed to be top of the line, but they don't "act" like it.
_________________________
reference text::::::

If labor cost is their complaint, it doesn't hold water, cause Cadillac could make their cars anywhere and the U.S.A. public would buy them. Why not make them in China (low labor cost) and send them here(U.S.A.) if that's what it takes?
_______________________
I think Cadillac considers the STS their top of the line model, and they are trying to price the performance version as high as possible. The problem is that the STS is not quite worth the price with the interior as it is. Even if they repackaged stuff the way you would like, the price tag would probably be higher for the base car, and the performance stuff would be higher too, so you would probably still pay around $58,000.

plekto · April 2007

No, the Buick LaCrosse is supposed to compete with the Accord. The bastardized "thing" you rented was the GM equivalent of a stripped down rental fodder Corolla at best.

So of course it blew. GM is very much like Chrysler in this way. They make some cars that are world-class and some that are as if Skoda built them. Like they have several personalities all at once. So, they make worse vehicles and better vehicles than the imports. With an enormous wad of chaff inbetween to sift through.

mediapusher · April 2007

Who cares about opulent? Anyone can show off with a little creative thinking. What about performance, zen, quality iron, engine quality, ergonomics and drive feel? What about good gas mileage? What about handling? What about good reliability? What about the horrible brakes that 1950's cars always had? Why didn't those things matter? You might think it's ridiculous for a non baby boomer to be asking these things about cars of the 1950's and 60's, however these are the things people think about when they buy a car today. GM is still not delivering on many of these points. And... why does it matter to some people so much to "keep up with the jones'es" That just screams of insecurity to me.
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reference text::::
I realize nothing could be more boring for a younger person than to hear about the "old days" but Cadillac was really highly regarded in our culture---owning one was the object of outright jealousy and the average man on the street was genuinely impressed to see one. Why? Because they were conspicuously opulent compared to the shabby everyday cars most people drove

mediapusher · April 2007

I really don't think that Lexus is trying to be a Mercedes beater. What gives you that idea? Lexus is trying to make a great luxury car, which they do very well. They know unlike GM, that the "rest" will take care of itself if they put out a good product. They don't think like the U.S.A. thinks, and that is,"Hmm, well how can we beat those Germans?" It's not about that, it's about figuring out what the customer wants, and delivering. Maybe if GM cared about what their customers wanted as opposed to whoever is forcing them to worry about quarterly profits, they'd turn the domestic division of their corporation around for the better.
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Replying to: louiswei (Mar 31, 2007 2:06 pm)

Cadillac's have always been affordable. Lexus is supposed to be top of line Mercedes beaters.

paisan · April 2007

On the Toyota/Lexus thing. I personally find that most Toyotas/Lexus have zero personality. They are like a refrigerator or the stove in the kitchen. Most folks don't even know what brand they drive! The "classiest/luxurious" lexus even has zero personality. Yeah they will run forever and not fall apart, but I'll take something with personality like a CTS or STS over them any day as a side note I'm no GM/Caddy fan either.

-mike

sls002 · April 2007

My understanding of the CTS interior is that it is made out of fairly expensive plastics with an expensive finish on it. The problem is that it looks like plastic, which was actually the styling goal I think, and as a result, also looks cheap. Lutz has said that they made an expensive interior look cheap.

I think one problem is that a lot of things at GM are done by committees, and as a result noone really takes responsibility for the final result. My 2002 Seville is put together fairly well I think, but I have not owned a Lexus, so I don't know how it compares. The nearest Lexus dealer is over 300 miles from here.

Mr_Shiftright · April 2007

Nothing is envied if everyone can easily possess it, nor can anything be the "standard of the world" if it's no better than its competition.

This is what makes Ferrari, for example, a standard of the world and probably nobody else (not a luxury standard, but a different kind of standard)---and not many people can afford to own one, or run one, and they are conspicuously different from any other car.

Probably impossible to do in a regular passenger car anymore.

lemko · April 2007

I also believe my Seville STS is put together very well of very nice quality components. Heck, I like it a lot better than the current STS. To get the same level feel of my present ride, I'd get the DTS despite the FWD configuration.
I have test-driven a Lexus LS430 before I bought the Seville. The Lexus is slightly nicer than the Seville, but not $5K nicer. It also had a less-powerful engine than the Seville and felt like driving my old Buick Park Avenue.

louiswei · April 2007

I would say BMW is the standard of the world for performance in the "easily possessed" auto market.

MB being the standard of the world for prestige in the "easily possessed" auto market.

Lexus being the standard of the world for quality/reliability in the "easily possessed" auto market.

Acura being the standard of the world for value (best bang for the bucks) in the "easily possessed" auto market.

Where is Caddy?

Mr_Shiftright · April 2007

It's not unreasonable to regard Cadillac as sort of the Hyundai of luxury cars, in the sense that some day Hyundai might rise from the ashes to great heights once again. They certainly have made great strides in 15 years. But trying to cling to Cadillac's distant glorious past strikes me as counter-productive. That is really history far too ancient to count on for anything.

I find myself more able to judge and support Cadillac's decisions if I forget what it once was, and remember instead how low it sunk in the 1980s.

That Cadillac even exists is remarkable, given how bad it had become at one point. In that sense, relatively speaking, I am genuinely impressed by today's products. But the battle is far from won.

gagrice · April 2007

A couple things. I think you have posters mixed up. I am the one with the 1948 Caddie. I am far from a GM hater. MY last 5 trucks were all GM. My statement on China is valid and will probably come to fruition. If GM cannot build a competitive cheap car for the masses in the US, Mexico or Canada. Why not China? GM is number one in China. People that buy cheap cars do not care where they are made. I believe the Chinese can build as nice a car as anyone else. Some roadblocks in the USA are not an issue in China. What is the difference in buying a car made in China as opposed to Japan. Not many cars are 100% USA Made. Are there any?

My statement on the quality of the current Cadillac line was not a negative. I really like the Escalade. I really do not want any sedans on the market. Just me. If I was to buy a luxury sedan today it would be an E320 CDI. Cadillac has nothing in that class. If GM had not botched up their feeble attempt to build a diesel in the 1980s, there would not be such a stigma attached today.

andres3 · April 2007

As long as the reason for buying a car for you is to look at it in the driveway or the auto repair shop; good for you!

But if your goal is to purchase a vehicle that runs and drives, that you can actually use, then Lexus and Toyota are clearly superior choices to Cadillac.

andres3 · April 2007

What is the difference in buying a car made in China as opposed to Japan.

Well, for one, the car builders in Japan are master vehicle builders and craftsmen, and have been doing a great job for their whole career, with many veterans of "producing the highest quality product" available in the market today, yesterday, and 15 years ago as well.

The Chinese have no record of producing high quality product, only a record of having produced lesser electronics than the Japanese.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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