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Comments
That is all in perception that has been marketed by Toyota for years. Chevy has always had that run forever perception as well but in reality it comes down to how well it was maintained.
Unfortunatly the data does not back up your image of these makers. In the 2006 JD Power VDS (at 3 years) Lexus is 1.36, Cadillac 1.63 and Toyota 1.79 problems per vehicle. In the Initial quality study it is the same kind of numbers. I know you will state that it is different at 5 and 10 years and I admit I do not have data, but I just do not see the "clearly superior" "runs and drives" statement really being a clear opinion. Just your biased opinion not based on facts, at least not enough facts to make a clear opinion.
Look Again
Wasn't 2005 either
Perhaps you prefer Forbes which factors in J.D Powers Ratings?
Or Warranty Direct?
You're entitled to your opinions but not your own facts.
However, I'm willing to say that my sources could be wrong... Please give us a cite to your list which shows Toyota as #15 in vehicle reliability.
:surprise:
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If GM had not botched up their feeble attempt to build a diesel in the 1980s, there would not be such a stigma attached today
If you think about the psychology of it, this is way the Japanese figured they would win the war ---through finances and better business competition, even though I would agree it's not fair competition. Also we seem to be more than willing to accept their double standards, quite simply because we need their cash and cash generating practices.
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They don't keep German luxury sedans out, so why should they keep American cars out? After all, we're much more important trading and political partners to them
Apparently Style as opposed to substance will always win over many people. I think the Lexus 460 has tons of personality. If a Lexus 460 drives by, I know it instantly. A Lexus 460 tells me the person has class, elegance, intelligence and money, even though all of those points may not be true.
On the other hand if I see a person driving a Cadillac :lemon: , it makes me think of gaucheness, a person who isn't smart with their money, and it also makes me think a person will regret that purchase later. I've heard too many horror stories regarding GM's products :lemon: , even today.
There are far too many negative psychological attachments involved when one thinks of a GM :lemon: vehicle based on what they have done to people in the past and what they continue to do
GM :lemon: doesn't seem to be very adaptable to change, nor do they like change. Markets change and customer's needs change. This has always been, it's nothing new, however GM doesn't want to acknowledge it.
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paisan HOST Apr 06, 2007 (5:38 am)
On the Toyota/Lexus thing. I personally find that most Toyotas/Lexus have zero personality. They are like a refrigerator or the stove in the kitchen. Most folks don't even know what brand they drive! The "classiest/luxurious" lexus even has zero personality. Yeah they will run forever and not fall apart, but I'll take something with personality like a CTS or STS over them any day as a side note I'm no GM/Caddy fan either.
-mike
Polyester can be made to look like silk. That doesn't mean it's silk, and that there is anything to be envied.
Here's a better analogy. I buy fine clothing, but I don't have to pay top dollar for them, cause I know how to shop and where to shop. If I can buy a $400 jacket for $130, why would I want to pay $400 for it?
I was at a car auction and a fellow snatched a 1 year old Ferrari Testarossa up for $61,289. This was a car that sold for $200,000 at retail. He was very happy to write that check.
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Mr_Shiftright HOST
Replying to: mediapusher (Apr 06, 2007 3:28 am)
Nothing is envied if everyone can easily possess it, nor can anything be the "standard of the world" if it's no better than its competition.
This is what makes Ferrari, for example, a standard of the world and probably nobody else (not a luxury standard, but a different kind of standard)---and not many people can afford to own one, or run one, and they are conspicuously different from any other car.
Probably impossible to do in a regular passenger car anymore.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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Replying to: poncho167 (Apr 06, 2007 9:49 am)
Hard to say, but if we drove a Toyota and a Chevy out of a showroom and right onto the Interstate for a trip across the country, I sure wouldn't bet on the Chevy unless you gave me at least 5 to 1. I'm supposed to "be in the business", but I'm terrified of buying a GM product, even though I'd really like to have an HHR or a Corvette. I can't risk it. I don't want a lemon or a buy-back. Sad to have to say that, but that's what I believe and I don't think my attitude is in the minority in America today. (even if it were wrong in reality).
Why judge a Lexus IS350 unless you've driven one or owned one or don't like the looks of the car? I judge GM cars, because I've driven some of them and unfortunately have owned one(constant nightmares waiting to happen), and some of GMs exterior designs have been beyond laughable--
You seem to be judging the guy more than the car. :P
Of course the older generation doesn't understand what young people with money like to buy today when it comes to cars. They grew up when time-sharing meant spending quality time with your family, and when cars handled like ocean liner cruise ships
The kind of goose bumps and cringe feeling you're talking about is what people get when they see a person driving a Chevrolet Camaro :lemon: (as if that's a luxury performance coupe) LOL! What a joke. The Chevrolet Camaro is made in Canada by the way.
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IS by imidazol97 Mar 31, 2007 (3:41 pm)
I saw an IS at the local gas station coffee shop. The guy inside had on a recently bought navy pinstrip suit, a fancy shirt which I guess he paid lots for but looked out of place, and lots of obnoxious cologne along with hair that had goop on it to make it look straggled. He looked like he binged on something often, maybe alcohol. And probably was near 30. I pegged him as a stock broker type, new and probably would overspend himself when things ain't hot, since there are some offices that sell by phone and some off brand stores around th area. He went out and hopped into his IS350 as though he had the best thing in life. Zoomed his way through the maze to get out of the station. Is that the steroetype someone is trying to say buys IS's and older folk wouldn't understand.
to Mexico,
to Lake Tahoe, Calif.
to Napa valley, CAlif.
to Oregon,
to Utah
to Las Vegas, NV
To San Diego, Calif
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As long as the reason for buying a car for you is to look at it in the driveway or the auto repair shop; good for you!
But if your goal is to purchase a vehicle that runs and drives, that you can actually use, then Lexus and Toyota are clearly superior choices to Cadillac.
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by louiswei Apr 06, 2007 (8:26 am)
Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Apr 06, 2007 8:19 am)
I would say BMW is the standard of the world for performance in the "easily possessed" auto market.
MB being the standard of the world for prestige in the "easily possessed" auto market.
Lexus being the standard of the world for quality/reliability in the "easily possessed" auto market.
Acura being the standard of the world for value (best bang for the bucks) in the "easily possessed" auto market.
Where is Caddy?
it's possible that it's like a battlefield where statistically casualties are only 1% but in my sector they are falling like flies!!
So try as I may, it's very hard to believe in the abstract statistics when there is all this "evidence" around me.
Call me crazy....
I've never seen a dealer again either (Toyota owner here) and I like it that way
A person can statistic me all they want, it's not going to change my high regard for Toyota or Honda, because I've owned their cars and know how fine they are.
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I see your point but the statistics on the other hand don't support my experience any more than my experience supports the statistics. Every single damn one of my friends who has purchased a domestic vehicle has had some hassle with it---some worse than others, and yes, so have friends who purchased Passat and BMW....but, more to the point, every one of my friends (and me) who purchased Toyotas just turned the key and never saw another dealer except for an oil change.
it's possible that it's like a battlefield where statistically casualties are only 1% but in my sector they are falling like flies!!
So try as I may, it's very hard to believe in the abstract statistics when there is all this "evidence" around me.
Call me crazy....
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Replying to: poncho167 (Apr 06, 2007 12:10 pm)
Very funny, but last I looked Toyota was like #15 in vehicle reliabilty, and that is based on 2006 models. Buick and Cadillac both bested Toyota, while Lexus was at the top with Porsche and the other two mentioned.
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Look Again
Wasn't 2005 either
Perhaps you prefer Forbes which factors in J.D Powers Ratings?
Or Warranty Direct?
What I would like to know, as a prospective buyer, is this: what are my odds per 100 vehicles if I buy a new Cadillac, of having to go back to the dealer, within the *entire* warranty period. The "satisfaction upon delivery" or within 90 days of ownership is USELESS to me. Also people's subjective opinion of "fit and finish" means nothing to me. What do they actually know about it? Fit and finish relative to what? Also info from people who drive 3,000 miles a year in Arizona is probably useless to me.
Why wouldn't 3000 miles a year in Arizona mean anything to you?
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Also people's subjective opinion of "fit and finish" means nothing to me. What do they actually know about it? Fit and finish relative to what? Also info from people who drive 3,000 miles a year in Arizona is probably useless to me.
So data on leisurely use in dry Arizona climate is really of no use to me, as you can see.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I had to replace my transmission at 160,000 miles, but I was driving 300 miles a day. I drive a Toyota Corolla
Well that would depend on how much city stop and go driving he does. Someone like me driving in the traffic we have here I seriously doubt I could get half that on a clutch in my daily drive.
I had to replace my transmission at 160,000 miles,
I had a Chevy that went almost 300K miles on the same tranny. that is until the guy who bought it from me "accidently" put it in reverse going 60 MPH.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Personally if you gave me a Lexus I would crush it into a cube and send it back to you COD.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Keep in mind I have a $7,000 Toyota Corolla (that's what I paid for it) That amount of miles to me is a what you'd find on most ten year old cars, so the fact I had to replace the tranny at 160,000, I don't think is too bad. And damn, I drove that car hard. I tortured it with driving. 300 miles per day is too much for a car like mine. I have not had anything weird go wrong with the car, like brake manifolds falling off or water pump failing, or head gaskets blowing, etc...crankshaft suddenly falling, etc..
Just the idea that people are so heated about how well Lexus can compete with Mercedes and totally jumps over Cadillac says leaps and bounds about Lexus :shades: in a positive way and leaps and bounds about Cadillac :lemon: in a negative way. Lexus :shades: has only been around since 1990 (a mere 17 years) Cadillac :lemon: has been around for 100 years and still can't compete
I realize Lexus is actually Toyota, however their luxury division has only been around as we know it for 17 years.
GM has been faced with serious competition for twice that amount of time and still can't compete --so it goes beyond the fact they make bad products...
It shouldn't be the luck of the draw, but who knows. I don't have all the answers. I can only go by my own experience. I don't abuse cars, and I don't tend to buy automatic transmission, if that makes any difference. I can't stand cars with automatic transmissions. They're BORING. Can you spell B-O-R-I-N-G? My experience with Hondas and Toyotas have been very good. I sure do miss my Honda Accord EX sedan with the sunroof and power everything and trunkwing. Talk about envious stares that I used to get. Man do I miss that car. It was like riding a tight cloud. I'm probably going to buy another one, and just keep it forever and buy a new engine for it. Who knows, there are so many good and diverse choices when it comes to cars these days
My mother's 2001 LeSabre is running perfectly fine - been in the shop once in its life for a broken sensor, which is pretty routine on a car with almost 80K miles on it.
The GM of today isn't the GM of 1980.
No prejudice here, I have a major issue with Toyota that has some lawyers involved and it has nothing to do with cars.
And you should follow your own advice.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've never read so much propaganda in 10-15 minutes in my whole life. I feel I might of lowered my I.Q.
As imidazol97, has pointed out the statistics say different but I guess since it's GM, the facts don't apply. :confuse:
Yeah I know every GM, car ever made is a :lemon: :confuse:
Rocky
If GM, built buicks in China, people like myself who are "buy american" types with good jobs would not buy chinese made buicks.
Rocky
The following vehicles are Made in Canada:
Buick Lacrosse, Acura MDX
Chevrolet Impala, Honda Civic*
Chevrolet Monte Carlo, Honda Pilot*
Chevrolet Silverado*, Honda Ridgeline
Chrysler 300, Lexus RX350*
Chrysler Minivans* , Toyota Matrix
Dodge Charger, Toyota Corolla*
Ford Crown Victoria, GMC Sierra*
Pontiac Grand Prix, Chevrolet Silverado
The following vehicles are made in Mexico:
Buick Rendezvous, Cadillac Escalade ESV & EXT
Chevrolet Avalanche, Honda Accord*
Chevrolet HHR, Nissan Sentra
Cheveolet Silverado*, Toyota Tacoma
Chevrolet Suburban*, Volkswagen Jetta
Chrysler PT Cruiser, Volkswagen Beetle (Updated Release)
Dodge Ram*, Ford F-Series*
Ford Fusion, GMC Yukon*
Lincoln MKZ, Mercury Milan
The following vehicle is made in South Korea:
Chevrolet Aveo
* = Built in More than one country
All of the other USA nameplate cars are only built in the U.S.A.
Furthermore, the headquarters of DaimlerChrysler is in Germany.
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by rockylee Apr 06, 2007 (7:58 pm)
Replying to: mediapusher (Apr 06, 2007 7:42 pm)
So you are essentially saying that UAW, workers don't have the brain power to build quality products ????? Well the Lucerne, 08 CTS, Aura, Silverado, Tahoe, look like quality vehicles to me and that's not all of them just a few.
If GM, built buicks in China, people like myself who are "buy american" types with good jobs would not buy chinese made buicks.
Rocky
I sure wouldn't trust any Chinese-made vehicle when the Chinese can't even get the formula for pet food straight. Seems our cats and dogs are dying due to pet food components sourced from over there.