Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

mediapusher · April 2007

It seems that Cadillac is going to have difficulty in becoming "standard of th world" in light of just released news reports such as this one:

Toyota surpasses GM in 1Q sales

mediapusher · April 2007

You'll never get these GM fanatics on here to understand that. They think we're biased and don't know what we are talking about.
--mediapusher
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Cadillac is struggling just like the rest of gm. The only car that is standard of the world is lexus or maybe infiniti. Other than that nothing compares.
--bigman35

gagrice · April 2007

They think we're biased and don't know what we are talking about.

I would say that is a fair analysis.

british_rover · April 2007

God help us if Lexus becomes the standard of the world for autos. I might die of boredom.

mediapusher · April 2007

Gagrice-

That's the way I prefer it. I don't need a car salesman jumping down my throat the moment I walk on to the salesroom floor. If I need help, I'll ask for it, and they'll be glad to help me, the way it's always been at Toyota dealerships. Their cars sell themselves. Besides, think of how much time the salesman would waste by talking to all the looky-loos.

And lets face it, you people that like to purchase SUVs and use them like cars are totally different breeds.

----mediapusher
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By contrast I walked around two Toyota dealers, sat in several models without ever having anyone say Hi how are ya. I got the same treatment at Mercedes and BMW. The Acura dealer had a salesman right there that was very knowledgeable and friendly. Just did not like the looks or the seats in the new MDX.

jimbres · April 2007

While shopping for a new car last year, my wife hit every local luxury dealership. She reported that the 2 most professional salesmen that she encountered were the Mercedes Benz & Cadillac reps. And the Caddy guy was the only salesman who let her take an unaccompanied test drive. In our area (1 of the NYC suburbs), that's unheard of.

So what did she buy? A Lexus.

mediapusher · April 2007

Gagrice-

I realize that GM isn't struggling in terms of global sales and SUV sales, however they have had a difficult time in getting the U.S.A. public to like what they have to offer in terms of cars, not SUVs. How can you refute that?

mediapusher · April 2007

:shades:

, Yep, that's my point
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While shopping for a new car last year, my wife hit every local luxury dealership. She reported that the 2 most professional salesmen that she encountered were the Mercedes Benz & Cadillac reps. And the Caddy guy was the only salesman who let her take an unaccompanied test drive. In our area (1 of the NYC suburbs), that's unheard of.

So what did she buy? A Lexus.

jimbres · April 2007

God help us if Lexus becomes the standard of the world for autos. I might die of boredom.

How right you are. My wife is on her 2nd Lexus, & I'm here to tell you that they're rolling couches. Smooth, comfortable, nearly bulletproof & boring.

jimbres · April 2007

The only car that is standard of the world is lexus or maybe infiniti.

Not where I live. A doctor's wife may drive a Lexus, but the doctor himself almost always drives German iron - Mercedes or BMW.

british_rover · April 2007

Boring and Ugly generally. Although that is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

mediapusher · April 2007

Well it's still not General Motors is it :sick: ????????

In the last 15 years or so GM focused on selling nothing but gas guzzling SUVs, with the exception of Saturn, and Saturn isn't even under the same management.---Meanwhile it's competition (Toyota/Honda) was focusing on hybrids and new fuel efficient models. These vehicles have been a tremendous hit in the United States.

GM is offering severance packages to get rid of it retirees and expensive employees, shutting down factories, and elminiating 30,000 jobs by 2008; meanwhile Toyota has been expanding its production in the United States.

We already went through this energy crisis/ vehicle fuel price spike and shock thing in 1975/76, so it's somewhat inexcusable that GM wasn't interested in being more innovative and intuitive.

And...It's a good thing we did have competition from Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Mazada/Mercedes, etc..cause otherwise we'd still be driving the terrible stuff Ford and GM were offering in 1972. It's not 1957 anymore people.
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Replying to: bigman35 (Apr 24, 2007 9:51 am)

The only car that is standard of the world is lexus or maybe infiniti.

Not where I live. A doctor's wife may drive a Lexus, but the doctor himself almost always drives German iron - Mercedes or BMW.

lemko · April 2007

It should be:

"Meanwhile Toyota has been expanding its production in non-union "right-to-work" states as it's getting rid of its older, more expensive employees."

mediapusher · April 2007

Uhhh, excuse me, but Unions are what caused all this mess in the first place. If I'm making a decent wage, I don't need to belong to a Union. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, meaning if one corporation or industry is forced to hire union labor, then that rule should apply to all, not just the automobile industry.

And as far as I'm concerned, if I'm making a decent wage, I'll buy my own health insurance, which I do.

Go ask a Toyota or Honda worker if they're making a decent wage and have good benefits. I doubt if you'll get any NO's
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It should be:

"Meanwhile Toyota has been expanding its production in non-union "right-to-work" states as it's getting rid of its older, more expensive employees."

Kirstie_H · April 2007

Cadillac, folks, Cadillac. There's a perfectly good UAW discussion floating around.

jimbres · April 2007

Good post. I have to wonder, though, if Cadillac can ever regain mindshare from the imports - the Germans in particular - in the coastal markets -- particularly at the top end.

When I was growing up 45+ years ago in an affluent NY suburb, the local gentry almost always drove Cadillacs. In the country club parking lot, you might see a few Lincolns & an occasional Imperial, but Cadillac had a lock on the luxury market. That's what successful bankers, brokers, doctors & lawyers drove in the 1950s & 60s. If you were a young professional with your foot on the 1st rung of the ladder, you aspired to Cadillac ownership. And Cadillac advertising effectively played to that. While rummaging through some old National Geographics at a neighborhood garage sale, I found a 1956 ad that didn't even show the car -- just 2 attractive young upper-class types standing outside of a theater, waiting for the valet to bring their Coupe de Ville around. At the bottom of the ad was the Cadillac crest & the motto, "Standard of the World". It was pure snobbery, & it worked.

How times have changed! Cadillac may still be an aspirational brand in the Midwest & South, but on the 2 coasts, the Germans are top dogs & have been since the early 80s. If you're a successful plumbing contractor, you might be satisfied with a Cadillac, but not if you're at the managing director level of an investment bank or partner in a blue-chip law firm. A 1st-year law student pounding the books doesn't daydream about the Cadillac he'll buy when he makes partner -- he's lusting after a 5-series BMW. Look in the parking lot of an exclusive country club in lower Westchester or the North Shore of Long Island, & apart from an Escalade or two (& those are giving way to Range Rovers, which are this year's hot large luxury SUVs), you'll see few if any Cadillacs.

The CTS looks like it'll be the best Cadillac in decades, but will it turn the tide? Cadillac used to own the top end of the market. Can Cadillac get it back?

plekto · April 2007

You can get a 2007 CTS for $299 a month. I checked a couple of dealers and while they don't have one with stickshift, buying a base CTS with stick would run you $1000 less out of pocket than the automatic equipped Bose edition. ($2K vs $3K - since the car in question was a $31K car vs $34K)

At these prices, I can overlook a LOT of things. Sure beats owning a Corolla for the same money. 2K down, $299 a month. Well, if my tax rebate comes in soon enough... I'll be leasing one if I can.(and if the program is running next month)

Yes, I know it technically gets the dealer $10 more a month than the actual figures work out to, but $1000 less to start a lease is a major plus - I'll cut them some slack.

mediapusher · April 2007

No it can't because Cadillac is also GM and GM's reputation for building unreliable vehicles is too solid. The fact that GM's Cadillac ocassionally churns out Cateras doesn't help matters. It also doesn't help matters that they want to build cars with loose fitting body panels, cheap interiors, old technology and still expect top dollar for them. If they want to build cars like that, then price them accordingly.

People demand more these days.. The idea that Cadillac has scream cheap interior in their 2007 CTS reveals that little has changed and they're not interested in changing. They don't like change. By now it should be much different

And you're right, a successful investment banker, doctor, lawyer, broker, etc wouldn't be caught dead in a Cadillac, because the fact that they're associated with GM is too embarrassing
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The CTS looks like it'll be the best Cadillac in decades, but will it turn the tide? Cadillac used to own the top end of the market. Can Cadillac get it back?

plekto · April 2007

And yet I reply exactly the same. Who cares? Lease it - have no warranty issues to deal with at all. For $299 a month, it's an astounding deal. And the interior on even the old CTS is no worse than a typical Accord or other car that leases for somewhere in the $250-$300 range, typically.

jimbres · April 2007

No it can't because Cadillac is also GM and GM's reputation for building unreliable vehicles is too solid.

Not really. According to this year's Annual Auto Issue from Consumer Reports, mid-sized & large GM passenger cars are turning in average to better-than-average reliability scores. They're not up there with the top-tier Japanese brands, but they're a helluva lot better in this regard than anything that Mercedes makes. I'm sure that you can buy a GM sedan & drive it for 10 years without being bankrupted by repair costs. I wouldn't say the same thing about an E-Class Mercedes. (CR gives both the E & S-Class cars much lower than average reliability scores.)

And yet the folks who live in the top-dollar zip codes would far rather park a Mercedes than a Cadillac in front of their multi-million dollar homes. No, I'm not talking about reliability. I'm talking about snob appeal, pure & simple. The Cadillac brand used to ooze it. Can Cadillac regain that?

mediapusher · April 2007

I don't really understand your argument because to me snob appeal is a Maserati, Rolls Royce or Ferrari. And keep in mind those cars don't exactly have stellar reliability records either. Cadillac has never factored or been on the radar in the snob appeal department as far as I'm concerned.

Reliability aside, too many of the cars that GM produces look sloppily put together. That's insulting to customers.

I realize Mercedes is starting to have problems, but to me, they're not really the ones to worry about here in terms o competitiveness. The real ones to worry about are Toyota and Honda.

And honestly, who cares about snob appeal? Do people really buy cars that way?

Since GM doesn't want to build cars that look like bank vaults inside and out, they'll never compete with Mercedes. I don't like Mercedes. And Mercedes are no where near what they used to be in terms of quality. Most of the people I know that have money would rather have a BMW as opposed to a Mercedes. My dad is one of those people. He had one Mercedes, and the rest have been BMW's

gagrice · April 2007

Cadillac has never factored or been on the radar in the snob appeal department as far as I'm concerned.

I guess you are too young to remember. They were at one time. I would say at this point in time they are equal to the Lexus and behind Mercedes. I will give Lexus the leg up with the new LS460 It is a vast improvement over the LS430. First real improvement since they built the LS400. Car companies have a history of living on their laurels Cadillac and Lexus are no exception.

mediapusher · April 2007

Gagrice-

That was 60 years ago $:\$ Cmon. What worked then doesn't work now.

By the way, Mercedes is behind Lexus. And Cadillac in no shape or form is equal to a Lexus LS460. Not even close...
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I guess you are too young to remember. They were at one time

gagrice · April 2007

You said never. 50 years ago Cadillac WAS the standard. What would Elvis drive if not a Caddy.

I also gave the LS460 a leg up. Nice car still not a Mercedes. Mercedes covers a lot of different luxury models that Lexus is not even close to. But that is a different thread, eh? Lexus is a one car company. The rest are just rebadged Toyotas.

PS
If Lexus is so great why did they take so long to try and compete in their own country against MB & BMW?

mediapusher · April 2007

Gagrice-

Doesn't demographics have something to do with this? Come to where I live (Southern California) and see how many Cadillacs are floating around. You won't find many.

As for your PS question,I can't speak for Japan, I wasn't raised in Japan and have never lived in Japan.

And if that's your logic. Hmmmm GM can't seem to do well in their own country either, can they?? But they do wonderful in Australia and China.

gagrice · April 2007

I live a couple hours south of you. I have never said that Cadillac cars are big sellers here. You see a lot more Escalades than you do LX470s. I have no numbers. I would say that SUVs and PU trucks out number cars where I live. As far as Cadillac, there are 6 Cadillac dealers in the county and only 2 Lexus dealers. One of them is the reason I would never buy another new Lexus here. The Cadillac dealers must be going broke if they are not selling in So Ca. You need to research a little more. You probably did not notice the Cadillacs as they are not a garish as the cheapo IS, GS and RX Lexus models. Those to me are junk vehicles, that have cheapened the Lexus nameplate.

jimbres · April 2007

(Sorry, but I just had to correct the thread title. In this context, the correct spelling is "its" -- not "it's".)

I'm really not pushing an argument -- just making an observation & raising a question.

The observation is simply this: there was a time when the rich & near-rich bought Cadillacs. Cadillac owned that end of the market until the late 1970s or early 80s. (If you reached driving age much after 1980, you won't remember these times.) Then, Cadillac lost it. Upper-echelon buyers discovered German (& later on, Japanese) brands & never returned to the fold.

And here's the question: can Cadillac get the current generation of luxury car buyers to pay attention to the new CTS?

jkr2106 · April 2007

Yes.

They got me. I may only be 18, but someday I'll need a new car, and frankly I am too young to remember a truely horrible Cadillac. Sure GM has screwed up the generations born in the 60s to 80s, but I think with time things will get better.

My parents always bought Nissans because Chevys were not "cool" i guess. I remember in 04 when we got a Maxima (and in '05 the Altima), GM just didn't offer anything like that, now they do. But to be honest, I don't think my parents have a desire to buy domestic.

So, I think wooing the older generations may be rather futile. GM needs to concentrate on not leaving younger people with a bad taste in their mouth after trying a GM.

On a side note: I'm happy Toyo has finally passed the General, now they have the huge target on their back.

jimbres · April 2007

So, I think wooing the older generations may be rather futile. GM needs to concentrate on not leaving younger people with a bad taste in their mouth after trying a GM.

Interesting! Makes sense, too. In the early 70s, Toyota grabbed the baby boomers, who were just reaching car-buying age at that time, & never let go.

I wonder if anyone from Cadillac's marketing staff is reading this.

displacedtexan · April 2007

I don't think I'm the older generation, but I came of driving age in the late '70s, so maybe I am. However, Cadillac hasn't lost me, and it is (it's) on my radar for my next purchase. I like my Lincoln LS, but right now Lincoln doesn't have anything that interests me. So, Cadillac, Acura, and perhaps BMW are near the top of my list, in that order.

mediapusher · April 2007

Jimbres-

One of the younger posters on here couldn't have said a more profound and eloquent statement--->"GM needs to concentrate on not leaving younger people with a bad taste in their mouth after trying a GM." Hello??????? GM? anybody home??? You listening??? $:\$

And to answer your question, no Cadillac is not going to get people to pay attention to its CTS. Why? Because just like all of GM's cars they spend too much time on erratic and silly marketing and insulting marketing,(e.g. "C.E.O but not quite" CTS commercial, "The Power of &") What the hell does "The Power of &" mean??? $:\$ , They produce too many gleaming flops. Most recent example of this is the Catera. Others have been the v864 technology and Toyota sized eldorados and sevilles, the Cadillac Allante. They produce a half way decent car like the CTS, and then do dumb things like put shoulder height seat mounted seat belts in it. What that hell is that about?? Then they stick Chevrolet Vega interior in it: $:\$ . I mean what is wrong with these people at GM?

Another reason is people know that Cadillac is GM. GM has produced too many flops and produced too many unreliable cars for people to trust them--and GM apparently doesn't care. On top of this they want top dollar $:\$ for their stuff.

They wasted all their time in the last 15 years marketing nothing but gas guzzling vehicles. And now look, we have another "energy crisis". Uhhh didn't we already go through this in 1975/76. Those are the years when the sales of Toyota fuel efficient vehicles in this country first went through the roof. Toyota has been building top selling fuel efficient vehicles for decades. And now Toyota has a luxury line to go along with that niche. What has GM got? SUVs? That's one market. Toyota has several.

GM is like Michael Jackson. There is too much strangeness associated with them now, and a stigma of them not being able to produce what the USA wants even when faced with all the hints society could possibly throw at them.

When Toyota or Honda has problems with their cars, they fix the problem pretty quickly. Does GM do this? I don't think so

People remmeber these kind of things.

We spend far too much on cars these days to have a car in the shop all the time and to not have decent resale value. Even if bad quality no longer defines GM cars, that's what the majority of the public still thinks about them. $:\$ . With all this stuff hanging over their head, there is no way they're going to be "standard of the world" in my lifetime or yours, unless they change their ways.

rockylee · April 2007

gagrice, imidazol97, 1487, can you take this one for me ? I don't think I have it in me today to muster a response to all this propoganda. :sick:

Rocky

imidazol97 · April 2007

>can you take this one for me ?

It's the same old stuff falling out the closet door. I just wait for the housekeeper to come along and push it back in and close the door. Same old, same old.

lemko · April 2007

I came of driving age in the early 1980s - perhaps Cadillac's worst period and I STILL love the brand. I'd certainly avoid any Cadillac manufactured from 1981 thru 1986, but after they got rid of the awful 4.1 litre, I was confident in purchasing a new Caddy. I still have my 1989 Cadillac Brougham purchased new when I was only 24. The car is still in excellent condition. I followed up with a new 1994 Cadillac Deville and a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS. I'm looking forward to another Cadillac in the future.

lemko · April 2007

They produce too many gleaming flops. Most recent example of this is the Catera.

Wow, that was about ten years ago.

When Toyota or Honda has problems with their cars, they fix the problem pretty quickly.

Nah, they just sweep 'em under the rug and hope nobody notices. Sludge anyone?

gagrice · April 2007

When Toyota or Honda has problems with their cars, they fix the problem pretty quickly. Does GM do this? I don't think so People remmeber these kind of things.

Yes I remember and that is why I buy GM instead of Toyota or Honda. Tell your lame story to all the folks with 2007 Camrys that sit in the shop with no resolution to problems. So far you have only come up with a story of a 22 year old GM that gave you problems. Who is living in the past? You will see him if you look in the mirror.

I got a plane to catch cheers all.

rockylee · April 2007

Good response guys. Sorry I left you out lemko.

Rocky

rockylee · April 2007

I got a plane to catch cheers all.

Where you going ? Have fun.

Rocky

lokki · April 2007

If Lexus is so great why did they take so long to try and compete in their own country against MB & BMW?

The reason that the Lexus name wasn't used in Japan is that it wasn't necessary. Toyota was already successfully selling luxury cars as Toyotas. The flagship LS 400 was known as the Toyota Celsior in the Japanese domestic market. The IS 300 is based on the Japanese Domestic Market Toyota Altezza, and the GS models are based on the Toyota Aristo. The SC 300/400 is based on Japanese Domestic Market Toyota Soarer.

Now that Lexus has become an international success, the name plate has become necessary as people in Japan decided they were missing a 'step-up' from their Toyotas even though the features (and styling) on their Toyotas were the same as the foreign label. Sort of the GM 1980's loaded Caprice-Classic vs. a Cadillac in reverse situation.

johnnydough · April 2007

I just purchased a 2005 XLR and am absolutely delighted with it's performance. I was told at Carmax (where I purchased it) that there is a website where I can obtain the "original" invoice on my vehicle by just putting in the vin number. Does anyone know where this might be? Your response is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks

mediapusher · April 2007

You people can say what you want, but whose reputation is worse that whose? Is it Toyota or Honda that has a bad reputation or GM? Now answer that question with a straight face.

rayainsw · April 2007

Information on this service ( for Caddys, Pontiacs, etc., as well as Corvettes ) is here:

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/infosearch/index.php?cmd=area

sls002 · April 2007

Toyota and Honda became popular in the mid-70's because they were fuel efficient - high EPA MPG ratings. I have owned about 15 different GM cars over the last 35 years and I have not had serious problems with any of them. Consumer Reports would have you believe that all domestic cars are below average, while all Japanese cars are above. However, my brother has a Honda CR-V (?), with a 4 cylinder engine that needed a major rebuild at about 70,000 miles. So, for me at least, Honda is far worse than GM.

lokki · April 2007

To paraphrase Damon Runyon:

Hondas and Toyotas aren't always more reliable than GM cars, but that's the way to bet.

62vetteefp · April 2007

You people can say what you want, but whose reputation is worse that whose? Is it Toyota or Honda that has a bad reputation or GM? Now answer that question with a straight face.

Yes, but times are changing. You are living in the past. Soon there will be something announced that will rock your world

I am wondering if you will be able to handle it :P

rockylee · April 2007

62,

Man ol' mediapusher is a tough character and will lay it all out on the line to try to prove us wrong.

I'd love to road race mediapusher here in my neck of the roads. We could take Boys Ranch Road from Amarillo to Channing. His honyota's wouldn't have a chance

Rocky

62vetteefp · April 2007

Rock, good news is coming and I am sure we will all read it here.

The landscape is changing and many are caught in the past. The data is already there for the quality issues but a closed mind will have a hard time seeing it. But most of the people in this country are willing to look at the data and see the changes that have been going on for a few years. And once that mind frame is changed GM will keep increasing sales.

Remember that GM may be losing overall sales here but they are gaining retail sales. Not a lot but they have cut way back on incentives while Chrysler continues its going out of business sales which are really hurting GM and Ford. Yes Toyota is a juggernaut but they are taking sales from almost everyone, not just GM.

bumpy · April 2007

Remember that GM may be losing overall sales here but they are gaining retail sales.

Which brands? Pontiac and Buick are continuing their slow slide to oblivion, and Cadillac is caught between a new CTS, an aging DTS, and an Escalade facing an increasingly hostile sales enviroment. Saturn might be picking up some sales, but its overall volume is so low that it's almost not worth the trouble.

62vetteefp · April 2007

Good question that I do not have the answer for. But GM still continues to drop fleet sales (where is that guy who kept saying he did not believe it?) and retail is holding steady / increasing slightly. Escalade sales were up significantly.

Retail Sales Up 0.5 Percent - Mid-Cars Up 14.5 Percent; Full-Size Pickups up 12.2 Percent
Saturn and GMC Post Substantial Gains Led By Aura Mid-Size Sedan and Crossovers Outlook and Acadia
Chevrolet Impala and Aveo Post Quarterly Record Sales
Daily Rental Sales Down 32 Percent; Non-Rental Fleet Sales Up 3 Percent
March

Sales Down 7.7 Percent vs. Year Ago
GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook Fuel 235 Percent Retail Increase in Mid-Utility Crossover Sales
Record March Escalade Sales Drive 17.6 Percent Retail Increase in Large Luxury Utilities
Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura Contribute To Retail Sales Increase For Mid-Car Segment
Daily Rental Sales Down 35 Percent

plekto · April 2007

And that, of course, is a good thing. GM's fleet sales are sometihng that it needs to someday learn to survive without - and leave the fleets to Hyundai and the others.

Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, and so on have learned that rental fleets only serve to add what is essentially dead weight to the whole proces. Lean and mean is the way to go(always has been, actually).

As for reliability, GM isn't as reliable as the others - not quite, but the repairs cost half as much. To say that Honda or Toyota are more reliable is therefore an exercise in false economy. It's like Mercedes. Their engines are great, but when they DO break, you better have a trust fund somewhere to pay the bill.

Toyota and Honda are now apporaching what Volvo and Mercedes used to cost a decade ago. Premium prices or close to it for mainstream cars. The idea of a transmission costing $4000 to replace is apalling and it takes it right off of my list of cars to consider. (stickshift aside, of course - which I favor)

A GM? The "ancient" 4 speed in the Buicks is just as reliable as the Toyota models(if not moreso, actually), and runs $1400-$1600 to get fixed. If they actually *rebuild* it, it's about $800 plus labor of a few hours.

Some math:
Car A: 1.5x reliability. 2x to repair.
Car B: 1x reliability. 1x to repair.

Net: Car A costs: 0.66x2=1.33x what car B does over its lifetime. And for Toyota and Honda, that's just the basic repairs. The transmission - it's a landmine in what is billed as an economical car.

Btw - Hyundai is about 2/3 as reliable as Toyota and as cheap as GM to fix, so isn't any better in the end - except a Hyundai transmission is GM's price-wise to fix.

So economically, Hyundai is now a better choice than Toyota(not to mention it's as inexpensive to buy as a GM - no 2-3K premium either).

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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