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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a long-time Cadillac afficianado.

    About a month ago I was eyeing up a Cadillac DTS Performance. The car is a classic case of Cadillac giving you more and less at the same time. It had a lot of features my current car doesn't have like satellite radio, nav, ultrasonic parking assist, 18" wheels, 20 more hp, heated and cooled seats, etc.

    It then doesn't have the things to which I've become familiar on Cadillacs. It didn't have the automatic parking brake release I've had on every Cadillac since my 1975 Sedan DeVille. It used the same foor-operated unit as in my girlfriend's LaCrosse! I can tolerate it in a lower-end Buick. I will NOT TOLERATE it in a $55K Cadillac!

    The steering wheel was OBVIOUSLY the same unit used on the Chevrolet Impala except with a Cadillac logo in the same round space with wood trim and leather with some really sloppy stitching. The unit in my current Seville STS is much more distinctive and better crafted.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    Or does everyone think Caddy doesn't want to be the world standard again and will settle for being "just another GM model?"

    I sincerely hope not.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...that Cadillac doesn't think it is already back on top and starts to slack-off again. Cadillac's rennaisance began with the 1992 Seville and Eldorado. It still has a ways to go before it is truly world-class.

    Good signs:

    Cadillac CTS is a quantum leap over the abyssmal Cimmaron and mediocre Catera. The 2008 CTS looks even better. Hope to see it in the metal soon!

    Cadillac Escalade is still the King of SUVs.

    Much-improved interior in DTS but fix the dang steering wheel! It looks as out of place against that gorgeous intrument panel as a wheel from a Boyertown van would look in an Aston Martin.

    The Cadillac V-Series.

    Bad signs:

    The STS is an also-ran. Don't like it as much as the previous FWD generation. I was very disappointed in the new STS. I much rather like my older car.

    The DTS is still considered pretty much an old-school Cadillac. RWD or AWD would add considerable cachet to this model. And again - dispense with the cheap Impala steering wheel and bring back the automatic parking brake release!

    Cadillac Escalade truck - get rid of this stupid anachronism! It might've made sense back in the 1990s, but it's an embarrassment today. You don't see Toyota making a Lexus truck out of the Tundra!

    The XLR needs more development. It still comes across as a Corvette in a Brooks Brothers suit.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >The STS is an also-ran. Don't like it as much as the previous FWD generation. I was very disappointed in the new STS. I much rather like my older car

    I keep seeing an STS4 picking up the kid at summer school. What does the 4 mean?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    AWD I guess.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cadillac Escalade is still the King of SUVs.

    I think you're right. I talked to a guy last Sunday at Mesa Verde National Park. He was driving a new Escalade. I asked how he liked it. It was a rental and he loved it. Said it handled and rode better than his wife's MB S430. Best road vehicle he ever drove. He had flown into Durango and that is all that was available for rent. I would buy one if my wife would go along with it.

    I agree about the PU version being, Eh! Don't be surprised if Lexus comes out with a Tundra re-badge to compete. Their LX470 is all but dead and they do not have a large SUV to compete with the others.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The DTS performance is rated 292 hp. The RWD STS has the 320 hp engine, as does my SRX. I think that the FWD DTS is on its last generation as FWD.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dang! I was lied to! My current Seville STS has 300 hp. I thought the DTS performance had 320!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The DTS performance has the same engine as your STS, but the current horsepower rating uses the new SAE standard and has lost a few horsepower, possibly due to some emissions changes. The RWD northstar has 320 because it has variable valve timing (VVT), which the FWD northstar does not have.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Cadillac Escalade is still the King of SUVs.

    Oh come on you can't really believe that can you?

    It is still at its heart a Chevy/GMC truck. All other Luxury SUVs in that class or price range, except for the Navigator, are not handicapped by a plebeian mass market platform.

    The Navigator is the exception to all of this but it is even worse then the Escalade.

    Everything else is some for of unibody platform some with subframes.

    Everything else is a fully independent suspension, many with standard air springs and some with standard adaptive air suspension. Many luxury SUVs now have a adaptive combination hydraulic/pneumatic suspension.

    The only thing the Escalade has going for it is the engine which is fairly impressive but with over six liters of displacement I would hope you could get at least 400 horsepower.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    This is one thing that irks me, cheap steering wheels. I know I am not alone in this, I place some value on having a nice wheel, as I am directly in front of the thing every second I am driving the car! GM has produced some notably awful units over the years, even on pricier cars. Very clueless.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Oh god that bothers me too. I can't remember if this is still true on the new Escalade but the old one used the exact same Steering Wheel as the Chevy Trucks.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I like my GMC PU steering wheel. Put over 2000 miles sitting behind it last week and did not get fatiqued. Or tired of selecting music with all the buttons.

    I guess I better check out the Range Rover. I just read all the horror stories and wrote them off. I drove the ML500 and the X5, both of which are very nice. I liked the roomy feel of the Escalade over the others.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Not that there is anything wrong with the GMC/Chevy PU steering wheel but don't you expect something better in a vehicle that can reach to $70,000 MSRP?

    You can't compare a Modern Range Rover to an old one. Completely different vehicle as of the 2003 MY. There is some debate about whether or not the switch to from the BMW V8 to the Jaguar V8 was a plus or minus. We have had some minor issues with the Jag V8 but front differential and electrical problems that came up on the 2003-2005 Range Rovers disappeared for 2006.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is good to know. I think we have only one dealer here in San Diego. I like the rugged look of the Land Rovers. None of the foo foo SUVs like the RX appeal to me in the least.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    Yep I recall that, and in the 90s their truck wheel was a brutal piece of design. Also in previous Corvettes I always thought the wheel looked painfully cheap. What does a nice steering wheel cost, a few hundred bucks? It makes an impression worth the money.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    That is one thing that Mercedes does very well. Their steering wheels are always top notch. Just the right thickness, just enough cushioning around the rim and just the right texture on the wheel.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    I'll agree with that...well, the fintail wheel is a huge plastic thing that wouldn't look out of place on an old bus...but otherwise, they are excellent. I love the feel of the leather on the E55 wheel, and the wheel itself is nice looking. MB wheels are also large, which I like.

    I haven't seen the wheel on a newer Caddy passenger car, I hope it's not an old Malibu wheel - I wouldn't put it past them
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    I thought the Cadillac Escalade was the king of SUV's? That and the GMC Yukon Denali (which are essentially the same vehicle, just different skins)

    Someone on here probably just had a heart attack cause they'd never thought they'd hear this from me.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Oh come on you can't really believe that can you?

    It is still at its heart a Chevy/GMC truck. All other Luxury SUVs in that class or price range, except for the Navigator, are not handicapped by a plebeian mass market platform.

    The Navigator is the exception to all of this but it is even worse then the Escalade.

    Everything else is some for of unibody platform some with subframes.

    Everything else is a fully independent suspension, many with standard air springs and some with standard adaptive air suspension. Many luxury SUVs now have a adaptive combination hydraulic/pneumatic suspension."

    Even though it doesn't have IFS, it is still the best there is no doubt. Large GM SUV's are still the standard to be measured with and im not afraid to tell you.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "There is some debate about whether or not the switch to from the BMW V8 to the Jaguar V8 was a plus or minus."

    Just to let you know, that Jaguar V8 is a Ford engine in disguise.
  • jescuejescue Member Posts: 521
    Not true. The AJ-V8,first used in 1997 on the XK8, is an all Jaguar design. The V6 is another story.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Someone on here probably just had a heart attack cause they'd never thought they'd hear this from me.

    Not at all. I knew you were a closet SUV lover all along :shades:

    If you need an SUV what's not to like about the Escalade. My wife likes the looks of the Denali better. If GM equips them with their new smaller diesel engine I will be very tempted. I do not need the HP of the 6.0L engine. Or the gas mileage. The 5.3L has plenty of power for me and I was able to squeek out 21.79 MPG on one tank on the highway last week. For some reason automakers think those that want luxury also want gobs of HP and are interested in how fast the vehicle will go from 0-60 MPH. All I need is enough to accelerate into freeway traffic safely.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >For some reason automakers think those that want luxury also want gobs of HP and are interested in how fast the vehicle will go from 0-60 MPH.

    Doesn't that juvenile need for higher horsepower and glitz come from the advertising of the car companies and from the purchasers' reacting to it to feed their egos rather than their needs-most of the time?

    >I do not need the HP of the 6.0L engine. Or the gas mileage. The 5.3L has plenty of power for me
    ...All I need is enough to accelerate into freeway traffic safely.

    That's a realistic evaluation of need rather than want. Much more practical and economical in the long run.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Even though it doesn't have IFS, it is still the best there is no doubt. Large GM SUV's are still the standard to be measured with and im not afraid to tell you.

    Just to let you know, that Jaguar V8 is a Ford engine in disguise.

    See you say things like that and then ask me to take you seriously. How can I take someone seriously when they don't know simple facts?

    IFS means Independent front suspension something that the escalade has always had since it is based on the Tahoe which has had an independent front suspension since the late 1980s.

    What the Tahoe and Escalade don't have is an independent REAR suspension. That is why their third row seats can't fold flat and why they have poor leg room in the third row.

    Just look at the specs...
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=107941

    Leg room in the third row is only 25.4 inches. That is 10 inches less then competitors with a IRS setup. Those same vehicles can still tow between 6,000 and 8,000 lbs just like the Escalade so you can design an IRS setup to tow.

    RE: The AJ-V8 as Jescue said it is not a Ford engine. The bore, stroke, bore centers, heads, valvetrain are all completely different. The Ford Modular V8 was designed to be a SOHC 2 valve per cylinder iron block motor with a displacement of 4.6 liters originally. Later on 3 valve and 4 valve versions were made in 4.6 and 5.4 liter displacements.

    The AJ-V8 was designed from the beginning to be a DOHC 4 valve per cylinder motor with an alloy block. Early versions had the Niksal cylinder liner problem like BMW and Mercedes. It was originally a 4.0 liter engine and then expanded to 4.2 and 4.4 liter displacements. The fourth generation AJ-V8 will have a 5.0 liter version as well.

    The V8 Vantage uses a 4.3 liter all hand built engine loosely based on the AJ-V8. Only the valve covers are direct carry overs from the Jag engines and it has dry sump lubrication to make it a 7,000 RPM screamer.

    Anything else you want me to correct for you?
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Not true. The AJ-V8,first used in 1997 on the XK8, is an all Jaguar design. The V6 is another story."

    I remember when Jaquar first started using the new block and it was like you said back in the late 1990's. I read and heard a single report on this, but then it was not revealed again because of Jaguar buyers expect Jaguar engines. It's a Ford block with different internals, thus its a Ford engine.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "What the Tahoe and Escalade don't have is an independent REAR suspension. That is why their third row seats can't fold flat and why they have poor leg room in the third row."

    Thats what I meant to say. I am aware it doesn't have an independent rear-end, but it still has the best ride for its size. When you go independent in the rear you also lose some towing capability. The Ford Explorers switch to independent rear didn't make it better riding than a GMC Envoy.

    As far as the Jaguar/Ford engine that is what was the news that was released years ago. Jaguar using the Ford block with different internals. I remember it clearly and was thinking true Jaguar buyer are not going to go for this. Maybe those were false reports, but that was what was said. Incidently have you ever heard that GM supplied automatic transmissions for Jaguars for many many years, even after Ford purchased them. Jaguar is not going to admit to that either.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    It is not a Ford block. It is an alloy block when Ford was still using Iron blocks for the modular motor. The engine was designed and built in England at the Bridgend, South Wales facility.

    Everything you wanted to know about the AJ-V8

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/events/jaguar/press/xK8engine.html

    The original 4.0 liter V8 uses a square 86 mm bore and stroke.

    Jag AJ-V8

    There is one version of the AJ-V8 that was built by Ford in the US and that is the AJ30/AJ35. It was put in the Ford Thunderbird and Lincoln LS.

    http://www.thedrivenman.com/AJ6/v8_performance.html

    The 4.6 liter Ford Modular V8 uses a nearly square 90.2 mm Bore and 90.0 mm stroke.

    Modular V8

    Of course Jag used GM transmissions for a while. Being such a small company it was hard to design their own and GM made a good 4 speed automatic at the time.

    The whole car was designed around that transmission so they aren't going to throw it out just because ownership changed hands.

    Just like The Range Rover kept using BMW V8s for several years after Ford bought Land Rover. It takes a while to make a big design change like that.

    I bit you didn't know that the XC90 used a GM transmission for a while either did you?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >XC90 used a GM transmission for a while either did you?

    Didn't they use GM AC compressors in those cars too back several years. I believe I watched them make them and was told they go to Jag and Volvo among other clients.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Maybe not sure. They were probably delphi units. The air springs we use in the LR3 and Sport are made by Delphi. You can see the Delphi logo when the spring is at full droop.
  • poncho167poncho167 Member Posts: 1,178
    "Just like The Range Rover kept using BMW V8s for several years after Ford bought Land Rover. It takes a while to make a big design change like that."

    "I bit you didn't know that the XC90 used a GM transmission for a while either did you?"

    And Rover bought the tooling/molds for a early 1960's Buick V8 that Buick nolonger needed, and used it up until recently. Remember that.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah so what is your point?

    The Buick/Oldsmobile/Rover V8 became the Chevy small block of the United Kingdom.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Anyone that's ever driven an underpowered vehicle knows how frustrating it is, hence the advertising of vehicles with power. They want you to know it can do the job well. Power is important when it comes to passing ,entering freeways and towing.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Land Rovers suck. One of the most unreliable if not THE most unreliable vehicles on the road. Ask my sister, she has one, it's always in the shop.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    That's what we're talking about on here, because the "Standard of the World" question is stupid, and doesn't make any sense.
    _____________________
    reference text::::::
    displacedtexan wrote :::::
    Maybe there's no answer to the question posed at the start of this thread. Maybe the hosts should rename it something like what's on the Lincoln forum: Where is GM taking Cadillac? Most of the discussion around here isn't so much about answering the original question of standard of the world, but instead is general discussion about the direction and future of Cadillac.
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    Well based ont their performance, they don't want to be "Standard of the World". Whatever the hell that means
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    That's because instead of the same old trite nonsense that they had been doing before, the CTS was a fresh idea from the ground up, designed by automobile enthusiasts, tested and driven by American and European professionals with accolades.

    The Catera, technically wasn't even a Cadillac persay. It was a cosmetically engineered car imported from Germany (Opel). It was a mediocre version of the car at best, which may have been fine in Germany, but was plagued with maintenance nightmares once Cadillac got their hands on it. On top of that the Catera's styling was far too bland. It ranked right "up there" with the Cimarron.

    The Cimmarron, puhleeez, what an embarrassing example of cosmetic engineering that was. It should have never went into production. It was Cadillac's version of a Chevy Cavalier. The only one who was fooled by it was General Motors, certainly not the public or the automotive press.

    You're wrong about the Cadillac Escalade. It still remains a top seller and status symbol for Cadillac. As long as people continue to buy it, they'll make it, environmentally friendly or not. And Toyota/Lexus does make an SUV out of one of their trucks. It's called a Toyota Land Cruiser or Lexus LX470.

    The XLR may seem weird to some people, but this car isn't meant for tons of people to be able to afford it, and it's definitely an eye turner and perfect for someone that grows money on trees and wants something a little different than what's already out there, even if it does need refinement. I've heard it is not as exciting to drive as a Corvette and has some problems that one just shouldn't find on an $80,000 car. Face it, it's a rich man's toy.
    __________________
    reference text:::::
    Cadillac CTS is a quantum leap over the abyssmal Cimmaron and mediocre Catera. The 2008 CTS looks even better. Hope to see it in the metal soon!

    Cadillac Escalade truck - get rid of this stupid anachronism! It might've made sense back in the 1990s, but it's an embarrassment today. You don't see Toyota making a Lexus truck out of the Tundra!
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    The STS may not need as much horsepower as the DTS. Isn't it lighter and sleeker?
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    CAn you be more specific in terms of what you mean by cheap steering wheels? Cheap materials? Cheap feel? Steering wheels that aren't large enough?
  • mediapushermediapusher Member Posts: 305
    I just re-read what "Standard of the World" was based upon. I and many others on here had probably forgotten. If that's the criteria for becoming standard of the world is, then god I hope not. I hope they never become standard of the world again. That's what has led to their semi-demise. It may have worked at one time, but those days are over

    Why would they have received an award for that? It seems silly.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Cadillac Escalade truck - get rid of this stupid anachronism! It might've made sense back in the 1990s, but it's an embarrassment today. You don't see Toyota making a Lexus truck out of the Tundra!

    Sorry to be a spoiler. The new 2009 Sequoia is just that. It is a big Tundra based SUV 5.7L engine and all. Bigger than the Escalade/Tahoe.. I suppose they will build the new Land Cruiser to compete against the Suburban or even bigger than the Excursion.

    2009 Sequoia
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    SO what are you going to do reply to every post between now and June?

    Multiple back to back replies on a topic have always been my definition of insanity for online forums.

    EDIT second reply...

    Cadillac Escalade truck - get rid of this stupid anachronism! It might've made sense back in the 1990s, but it's an embarrassment today. You don't see Toyota making a Lexus truck out of the Tundra!

    Sorry to be a spoiler. The new 2009 Sequoia is just that. It is a big Tundra based SUV 5.7L engine and all. Bigger than the Escalade/Tahoe.. I suppose they will build the new Land Cruiser to compete against the Suburban or even bigger than the Excursion.

    2009 Sequoia

    He meant the Escalade EXT truck thing with the useless tiny bed in the back.

    image

    And I agree it is even stupider then the regular escalade.

    The new LX570 looks like a over inflated RAV4.

    image

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My mistake. I agree the truck makes little sense. I see a quite a few of them. I should read closer before I post. lemko please accept my apology....... :sick:
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    What do you think about the LX570 equals over inflated RAV4?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think most all the SUVs have gone down hill in appearance. I like heavy duty frames and steel bumpers. The LX570 will have to be a big improvement over the last model to compete with the Escalade for handling and performance. To me the Land Rover and G500 from Mercedes are the only true luxury SUVs available in the USA. I doubt the LC/LX would hold up under the abuse an SUV should be built to sustain.

    I really do not like the looks of the RAV4. I think the CR-V is better looking. I think sales bear that out. I did go and sit in the Cadillac SRX. I liked the full length moon roof. I would not buy one as it is too small for my taste.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I agree the truck makes little sense. I see a quite a few of them

    Ahh, the truck makes little sense (avalanche/EXT), that is why we so many of them.

    The truck is a great truck for a contractor that needs the bed for his work stuff (with covered storage) AND needs the 2nd row seat for family, or workers, and if he sometimes hauls long items.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ok if you have ever actually seen a contractor driving a Avalanche/EXT and actually using it to haul stuff I will eat my breakfast plate.

    There are plenty of other trucks that would make better use of the Crew Cab covered bed design then the EXT.

    The handful of them that I see that are actually owned by business people, taking the 6,000 lbs write off I am sure, that might actually use them as work vehicles aren't carrying anything bigger then a blueprint in the truck.

    The only version of this truck more stupid then the Caddy version is the Hummer one. The H2 SUT has a bed that is less then three feet long. Even with the midgate down it is only about 6 feet long and then you can only put long thin objects into the truck.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Ok if you have ever actually seen a contractor driving a Avalanche/EXT and actually using it to haul stuff I will eat my breakfast plate.

    The guy who built my house drives the avalanche and swears by it. It is both his work truck and his personal vehicle (his wife has the 2nd vehicle). Have a good snack.

    I was going to buy one also when I was going to go into a venture installing closet systems because it would be perfect for me. However I decided not to go into it.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The guy who built my house drives the avalanche and swears by it. It is both his work truck and his personal vehicle (his wife has the 2nd vehicle). Have a good snack.

    Yum Fiber... :surprise:

    I have never ever seen an Avalanche hauling anything in the bed let alone being used for work. They just aren't that popular in the Northeast though. I can't remember the last time I saw an avalanche on the road that wasn't on a dealer plate. There is a chevy dealer nearby me that only sells Trucks/Suvs, Vettes and Harleys along with assorted used cars so I see them on his front line sometimes.

    The last time I saw an EXT was a year and a half ago when I was appraising one for trade on a Range Rover.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    have never ever seen an Avalanche hauling anything in the bed let alone being used for work

    Maybe because the cover is covering? He mostly uses it for hauling his power tools and stuff. The cover covers the stuff for securty. Otherwize he would have a pickup with a cap.
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