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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    If you probe the link you find deep inside that they qualify it to V6.
    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/cadillac/cts/100905508/elp.html?tab=one

    I suspect Edmunds is responsible for the goof.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ahyy Typos are a PITA aren't they?

    That does sound like a wicked good engine though. Any word on real world gas mileage for the new CTS?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac should have reviewed the ad more critically.

    The DI 3.6 CTS is supposed to get better mileage than the base 3.6 did. The new rating for the 2007 CTS are 16/25 while the 2008 is 17/26. What is not clear is whether this is for the new engine or not. The STS has similar ratings and it has the DI standard.

    GM's website rates both engines at 26 highway.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I could probably swing 30 mpg out of that then. Not bad at all for a fairly large sedan with over 300 hp.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Someone caught it. It says V6 in the banner ad. I never saw the original.

    http://www.edmunds.com/
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Heh. +1 for veracity, though "most powerful V6 engine" doesn't seem quite as impressive when the other contestants are the Catera and Cimarron. :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Heh. +1 for veracity, though "most powerful V6 engine" doesn't seem quite as impressive when the other contestants are the Catera and Cimarron.

    Would not the CTS and SRX and STS be included? These also have v6's?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You can get the STS with a V6?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The 2008 STS has the DI 3.6 standard. The 3.6 has been the standard engine.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah my bad I was thinking of the DTS for some reason.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The CTS is at the bottom of the Cadillac line (so far), so one would think that the DTS would be the next level up, with the STS at the top. But that is not quite the way it is.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah I think that is where I got screwed up.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually I am not sure you can say either the STS or DTS is the top of the line. They are for different customers. I see DTS in the hands of older folks with either a bunch of money or retired well. STS are a bit younger and then still with a bunch of money, but not the retired kind.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    62'

    The STS is the Flagship sedan of the Cadillac line-up pal. It has the most bells and whistles aka "Gadgetology" available. In fact the 08' STS, has the most gadgets found on any GM car. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Like what for example?

    The DTS does offer adaptive cruise control which is only available on performance versions of the STS.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think the base STS is below the DTS, but a loaded STS is more expensive than the DTS. But the DTS is really a DLS (deVille Luxury Sedan), while the STS is a RWD sport sedan. A base STS is prehaps more Luxury sedan (SLS) than sports sedan (STS). The DTS is for people who want a big FWD sedan. The Lucerne is probably a better choice in terms of price.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Bose 5.1 Studio Surround Sound is not found on DTS, either is Magnetic Ride Control, privacy glass (I know small),

    The 2008 STS debuts the latest StabiliTrak stability-control system, which now includes programming that does what you’re told to do when the rear wheels start slipping: actively steer into the skid. That’s right, StabiliTrak now steers as well as pulses individual brakes to maintain the presumed correct course. First a Lexus that parks itself; now a Cadillac that countersteers into a slide. What’s next? A manual transmission that shifts itself? Oh, wait!

    To be fair, the advantage of the new StabiliTrak stems from the ability of stability-control systems to detect a skid earlier than most drivers, and it’s likely that by making minor steering corrections in the process early on, StabiliTrak could prevent certain accidents that regular stability-control systems might not be able to catch. Now, we imagine enthusiasts might have a different opinion of this “advancement,” trying as it is to get in on our fun before stamping it out altogether, but we’ll have to see just how intrusive it is before we join (or lead) that chorus. Other new technologies include a lane-departure warning system and blind-spot sensors.

    I know I'm leaving out a few others but you get the picture !!!!! ;)

    -Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The STS is the Flagship sedan of the Cadillac line-up pal. It has the most bells and whistles aka "Gadgetology" available. In fact the 08' STS, has the most gadgets found on any GM car.

    It may be to you but the guy buying the DTS thinks he is getting the flagship because it is huge and drives down the street in real "big" style. I know owners of both and they are a different breed.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The DTS is for people who want a big FWD sedan.

    Actually the DTS is for people who want a BIG sedan. They do not care if it is FWD/RWD/AWD.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I had a dream last night that I bought a new DTS in White Diamond. It looked a lot like the car I test drove earlier this summer. It was pretty realistic as I was transferring my stuff from my current car to the new one. I wonder if this is an omen? To be brutally honest, the only way I'd be doing this now is if my Seville STS was stolen or destroyed in an accident. I like being free of car payments.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well you are incorrect about the magnetic ride, which is standard on the top of the line DTS. Magnetic ride is not generally available on the STS. Only the top package STS gets magnetic ride. The rear wheels on the DTS are not likely to start slipping...

    The DTS has a bose centerpoint surround sound (perhaps more advanced than 5.1?).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well yes and no. I would agree for people who do not care too much about the technical bits, the DTS is for the big car buyer, but the Town Car is too, and somehow I don't think the Mercedes S-class consumer will really think seriously about a DTS. However, the STS might be considered. But the S-class consumer is looking at much more luxurious levels of trim, so Cadillacs are probably not quite on the level for consideration.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think if big and dominating is important, the SRX is taller than either the DTS or STS, and the rear seats may be more comfortable than the DTS too. The SRX will handle snow better too (I think, will see after we get some unless snow is gone forever with global warming). The SRX is really not a sedan though, and the Escalade is really bigger yet, but more of a truck than the SRX.

    What I see in the DTS is a dead end product line, that will soon be replaced with a RWD sedan. The DTS is a nice FWD sedan, but the Lucerne is basically the same thing for less money.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    In the sixties the deVille was the big seller, and was clearly the mid-priced sedan. The top of the line were the Fleetwood models including the Eldorado (which was really not always a Fleetwood model. In the late 90's the Seville was the last of what were the Fleetwood models, but the DeVille seem to be on a par with the Seville (at least in the DHS trim). When the STS became the luxury sport sedan with a very wide price range, the DTS was sort of in the middle of the STS price range. The two cars are completely different models for different customers. I am not sure where Cadillac is going with the next generation of DTS/STS. There is talk of putting them both on the same RWD platform, with perhaps a short wheelbase model being the sport sedan, and a longer wheelbase model a luxury sedan. An even longer model could become something like the old Fleetwood sixty special, but that is my thought.

    Right now the CTS is clearly the low end Cadillac. The rest are more mid-priced Cadillacs. A high end Cadillac really does not exist.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What I see in the DTS is a dead end product line, that will soon be replaced with a RWD sedan

    That may be true but the old guys driving caddy's think the DTS is the one for them. Not some SUV/Station Wagon thingy or the small looking STS. Big is baddddd. (of course they would never think of bad in that definition)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Certainly the DTS is Cadillac's biggest sedan. However, the Lincoln Towncar is bigger, if bigger is important. If baddddd is important, then the Escalade is something to consider. I think for the old set, Cadillac is an icon, and the deVille (dts) is iconic. Devilles were best sellers for Cadillac from the late 50's through the 90's. CTS sales are nearly on a par with DTS now and the 2008 CTS may take over.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The head of Cadillac says the DTS and STS sedans will be replaced by one premium-luxury sedan. Cadillac also will look seriously at an entry-level vehicle priced around $28,000.

    The premium-luxury segment was booming five years ago when Cadillac introduced the DTS and STS. But since then, the segment has shrunk and so have DTS and STS sales.

    Through August, Cadillac sold 33,368 DTS sedans, down 13.9 percent compared with the year-ago period. The STS accounted for 13,156 sales, down 24.7 percent from a year earlier.

    “So arguably, we don't need two entries there anymore, given the shrinkage of that segment,” Jim Taylor, Cadillac's general manager, said last week in an interview here with Automotive News.

    Taylor said that neither car is going away per se but, rather, one car will combine the best attributes of both and eventually fill that segment. He did not give a time frame.

    Cadillac is also primed for an entry-level vehicle.

    “Can we use (a) vehicle at $28,000 to $32,000 that would address a whole other customer group that would be under the CTS? Absolutely,” Taylor said.

    GM's president of North America, Troy Clarke, has said GM would like to offer a vehicle under the CTS, something that Taylor initially had resisted. Taylor said his hesitation was due to concerns that Cadillac was not yet a strong enough premium luxury brand to risk offering a vehicle on the low end.

    Cadillac's cachet is strong enough now for an entry vehicle, provided there's balance at the top with a high-priced ultraluxury vehicle. Taylor said the idea of a flagship sedan for Cadillac is still alive.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Can we use (a) vehicle at $28,000 to $32,000 that would address a whole other customer group that would be under the CTS? Absolutely,”

    "Hello, Buick? Yeah, Cadillac just appropriated your customer base. I'll make the funeral arrangements."
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    GM's president of North America, Troy Clarke, has said GM would like to offer a vehicle under the CTS, something that Taylor initially had resisted.

    Maybe for Europe - but America loves BIG cars. I doubt the Smart ForTwo is going to be a big splash, Mercedes is giving up on the A class and the B for America, and BMW isn't sending us any 1ers....I notice.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The 1 series is coming out next year as a coupe only initially then a cab. Other versions may or may not follow.

    The CTS is a fairly big sedan and I wouldn't mind a slightly smaller RWD coupe/sedan from caddy with a hi-po V6 option.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    CTS will become a 5-series fighter more and more with every iteration. As matter of fact the new CTS is more comparable to the 5-series in size than it's to the 3-series. With the CTS going up market Caddy needs another sedans to fill the void. The BLS will be a great candidate if it's RWD. Too bad that it was based on the 9-3 platform.

    Rumor has it that Cadillac will replace the STS and DTS with a single model. I would expect to see that becomes Cadillac's flagship and 7-series/S-class/LS fighter.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Member Posts: 486
    In a visit to my Cadillac dealer today, the owner's son did say at the recent dealer's meeting the question (and joke) was regarding the CTS, "Did we just kill the STS?" The answer of course is yes. Once the CTS gets the new next-gen Northstar V8 in about a year or two, there won't be any need to keep the STS around. At that point, the CTS will be the 5 series competitor it should be with a choice of 2 V6 engines, a V8 and high performance V-series V8. There is a wagon version of the CTS being worked on, primarily for export markets but the US should get it too. A coupe has always been in the rumor bin...hopefully we'll see that next year.

    After that, Caddy will need a new smaller entry level vehicle for the US and to replace the existing Saab-derived B-series car available in Europe now. And a new larger flagship sedan should replace the STS and DTS on the top end.

    But apparently the concept car we should expect to see at next year's North American Auto Show will be a new Caddy crossover. Since an SRX replacement is still up in the air according to the rumor mill, I expect that vehicle will be a smaller B-series crossover. It should be interesting and will be a glimpse into what a B-series car will look like.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The upcoming 9-3 is getting AWD.

    An AWD entry level caddy with a torque hi-po V6 would be alright. I would prefer a RWD model though with AWD optional.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    "Hello, Buick? Yeah, Cadillac just appropriated your customer base. I'll make the funeral arrangements."

    Well somebody wanting thirty something thousand dollar entry/lux large sedan like a buick isn't going to be shopping for a Acura TSX size Cadillac. :confuse:

    -Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    True. They're either shopping for caskets or waiting for the RWD Impala.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    bumpy, that wasn't very funny. :P

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Hey, I'm still in really good health! True, I'd want a RWD Impala.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    They will need to upgrade the CTS interior if they plan to compete with the 5-series.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    From what I have read they have done it.

    After years of being criticized for its slapdash interior designs, General Motors has consistently improved the quality, fit and finish inside its vehicles, including the Cadillac CTS. The leather trim for components like the instrument panel, center console and the insides of the doors is now cut, wrapped and sewn entirely by hand and includes decorative French stitching found on much more expensive European luxury cars. Gauges and controls are fairly straightforward and ergonomically correct.

    And from folks who actually were in one:

    http://autos.yahoo.com/cadillac_cts-reviews_user/

    Comfortable and handsomely trimmed interior

    Possibly the most dramatic improvement to the CTS is the upscale and coherently flowing interior, complete with classy materials and top-notch fit and finish. Cadillac’s least-expensive car certainly doesn’t feel that way, and it upstages the ’08 Mercedes C-class. It also doesn’t hurt that even with a steeply raked rear window, the CTS offers a much larger and usable back seat (the smallest Caddy is similar in size to a 5-series BMW) than those in the smaller luxury sedans it competes with price-wise.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    You might want to read Automobile's comparison test. They had a few choice things to say about the CTS interior. I have already quoted them here before.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    But the S-class consumer is looking at much more luxurious levels of trim, so Cadillacs are probably not quite on the level for consideration.

    S-class consumers are also needing a car that has an elan or panache. It must be very exclusive. Cadillac has not had any offerings to meet that characterization. Has it ever had?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    In the late 50's Cadillac tried something with the Eldorado Brougham. This was priced on a par with Rolls Royce and I think Cadillac was trying to break into that market. About the time that Cadillac pulled the plug on the Eldorado Brougham, Mercedes entered the market with the 600 sedan/limo. The S-class I think came out of the 600, although the S is not quite what the 600 was either.

    I think Cadillac had something in the thirties with the V16, but they have never had anything quite like that since. Cadillac has generally wanted a profitable model, not really an icon.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Could you give me an Automobile link? All I can find are pictures.

    thanks
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The article is in the September issue, and the comparison test was done in Germany. The title is "In Enemy Territory". I don't think that it is on the website as yet. I have a subscription to Automobile.

    A point to consider: since Cadillac has been marketing the CTS as an entry level (3-series) car, moving it upmarket needs to be done with the 2008 model on the basis that it is all new. Of course this brings up the problem of where does the STS fit then. Sure it can be put up against the 7-series, but it has not done well in comparison tests with the E-class or 5-series.

    I will say this, if a CTS wagon were going to be available for the 2008 model year (it won't), I would most likely have waited for it.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    STS is not ready for that kind of prime time. Just announced that the DTS and STS will be replaced by one model.

    I do not get the mag but I can probably get one.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I think I just saw the new CTS in Burn Notice. Not bad looking and pretty good product placement it wasn't that blatant.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,137
    I have noticed new CTS advertising inserts in some car magazines, kind of made to look like an article. I can't say I care for this form of advertising.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I commented on this too, and yes it is the CTS, as the interior is not an STS. So it is the new 2008 CTS, and it has been on the last few episodes.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have the October issue now, so the September issue will not be available much longer. They did think the new interior was much better than the first generation, but felt that it was overdone to some extent. The plastics were not as good as the Germans. They also felt that the rear seats in the CTS were not as supportive as the 3-series or C-class even though there is more room.

    I don't know just what Cadillac is thinking for the next generation STS or DTS. If Cadillac plans to play in the 5-series sports sedan market, then the smaller end of the DTS/STS model will need to be this type of sedan. The larger end of the combined model can be a deVille replacement. An even larger model might be a higher end model like the old Fleetwood sixty special was.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I agree. Also, I think that after most of the independant coachbuilders went belly up or were bought out by the late '30's, Caddy went a little "downscale" (for lack of a better term) to appeal to a wider audience to keep sales up. They have been more flashy and outspoken w/ their average models as opposed to Mercedes, Rolls, Bentley, etc. Traditionally getting buyers like Elvis (new money) as opposed to a Vanderbilt (old money).

    I suppose that Caddy says "I've arrived" or "I made it" whereas the others say "what took you so long??"
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