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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    I get what you're saying. Actually, my Dad will be in the market in about a year and those are his reasons. So, its good for select consumers, but I think Cadillac would benefit from a more traditional product structure...at least until they are on top of the game again (they can't come in changing rules as a rookie; wait for them to be the team captain, then they'll call the plays).
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive. The XLR does not sell like the Mercedes SL's.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive.

    OK but they have to offer something to bring those BMW or Mercedes buyers over to Cadillac and keep the buyers they have. Does them little good to only sell to their current buyers.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Posts: 231
    I love GM/Cadillac as much as the next guy, but the interior on the XLR is sub-standard, and personally, I don't think its a looker on the outside either. Who wouldn't rather have a vette? So, for me at least, the XLR is not indicative of Cadillac's capabilities as a tier one luxury make.
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,476
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive. The XLR does not sell like the Mercedes SL's.

    = = =

    While I agree with statements 1 & 2, I disagree with #3.

    If Caddy does build something unique & American, I think that they CAN sell it. Particularly if the Price is Right. Even if expensive.

    I look to Chevy. The Corvette ( full disclosure here: I drive a 2007 Coupe ) is rather expensive, compared to most other Chevys. Yet they sell in volumes that allow GM to 1) make a profit & 2) make a GM ‘flagship’.

    The XLR sells in very low volumes, true enough. Yet sharing parts & platform with the Corvette allows the XLR to survive. And the XLR-v. ( And I applaud Caddy for investing the time & $$s in all the ‘v-series’ cars. )

    I happen to disagree with a couple of aspects of Caddy’s approach \ direction in all but the CTS-v, however. My sense is that the ( very expensive ) STS-v and XLR-v are priced largely according to the very sophisticated and expensive powerplants under their hoods. STS-v for 2008 = approx. $76K and the XLR-v is over $97K.

    My opinion is that both the STS-v and the XLR-v could have been equipped with a larger, normally aspirated, simpler & cheaper motor – and would have sold much better. If they had been equipped with ( for example ) the 6.2L V8, from the 2008 Corvette – or even the 400 HP 6.0L V8 ( with 400\400 HP\TQ ) instead of the supercharged NorthStar, they would likely have had very similar acceleration and been a whole lot less expensive to develop & to produce. And to sell. That would clearly have been a large ‘step up’ from the NorthStar – at 320 \ 315 HP\TQ, and now offering barely improved acceleration compared to the new 300+ HP DI V6 available in the 2008 STS.

    The XLR-v, with the s/c NorthStar posts almost identical acceleration numbers to my 2007 Corvette w/automatic. (The automatic trans. is essentially identical in both cars.) For nearly $100 Grand.

    Though this lovely ( and expensive ) 4.4L s/c motor makes more HP and marginally more TQ than the 6.0L V8 in the Corvette, they are so close in acceleration largely due to the XLR-v’s much greater weight – 3800#+ vs the Corvette at close to 3200#.

    The STS-v with 469 HP and 439 TQ is a 13.2 second sedan, according to R&T’s test. I’d bet that with the current Corvette’s 430 HP & 424 TQ would be capable of a mid- to high 13 second quarter. And would feel ‘just as quick’ and \ or ‘just as fast’ to 90+% of potential buyers. And it might very well also even feel ‘more American’ than the s/c NorthStar.

    And these cars could then have been marketed at something like a ( clearly, I am guessing here ) $10K or more ‘discount’, compared to those ‘-v’ cars actual MSRPs. I think an STS-v at closer to $63K or $64K would have been much more likely to develop into a sales success for Caddy. At almost $75K to start, the STS-v pricing makes for difficult volume sales – even for a Caddy. Note that $63K - $64K qualifies as “very expensive”, to me. But I believe that Caddy ** COULD ** sell the STS-v in significantly higher volumes at this MSRP \ Price Point.

    Said another way, if GM had decided to ‘pull ahead’ development of the 6.2L V8, instead of developing that s/c & hand-built version of the NorthStar, and plug the n/a 6.2L V8 into the STS-v at launch – and the Corvette a year later, perhaps – this would have been far better received. And would have sold better.

    Again, I mean no disrespect to the NorthStar motor. GM’s continued development of “regular” V8s strongly suggests to me that this would have been a better, as well as cheaper, route to an STS-v and an XLR-v. And partly here again I am considering that “different, but American” aspect.

    And I suspect that the 6.2L V8 is actually cheaper to produce than the base, 4.6L n/a NorthStar V8 – whereas the s/c NorthStar is clearly MUCH more expensive. Thus, an STS-v with the 6.2L V8 and 1SG level of equipment, plus a few unique touches, could probably be sold at a very modest ‘markup’ over a ‘regular’, NorthStar 1SG. Currently priced at roughly $61K MSRP.

    The same would apply to the XLR-v.

    And I will reiterate here that I would really, REALLY like to see Caddy succeed – and establish itself as a top tier Luxury Sports Brand. The 2008 CTS appears to be a large step in the right direction, though we’ll see where sales are after 6 to 9 months or a year on the market.

    Just my 0.02 gallons worth . . .
    I could be wrong.
    Cheers,
    - Ray
    Considering the Corvette, with top option group, to be nearly as much a luxury GT car as the XLR, for much less money and featuring better acceleration ( highly American ) to boot . . .
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well the problem is that if Cadillac is going to take the BMW or Mercedes buyers away from BMW and Mercedes, they will have to build something better and cheaper. I think this is not possible unless it is done in China. The CTS is a perfect example: it is not really a 3-series or a 5-series car; it also does not cost as much as the bigger 5-series, so there is a market for it, but probably the market is to those who want a bigger sport sedan than the 3-series, but don't want to pay 5-series prices.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Your example of the Corvette is wrong: the Corvette is a very good sports car for the money, it is cheap compared to European sports cars. This is why it sells. The XLR is nicer than the Corvette and with the DOHC V8, is more refined. However, it is not worth what it costs. The Corvette is a much better choice.

    However, putting the pushrod engines in the higher end Cadillac's to make V-series performance sedans is not what the market wants - it may be what you want, but you should buy the Pontiac G8. The true luxury performance sedan market is expecting refinement more like the AMG Mercedes models - the 6.2 liter V8.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    OK but they have to offer something to bring those BMW or Mercedes buyers over to Cadillac and keep the buyers they have. Does them little good to only sell to their current buyers.

    The truth of the matter is, you are not going to bring a current BMW or Mercedes owner over to Cadillac.
    Those people have drunk the Germans kool-aid, and aren't gonna change.
    Unless their portfolios tank.
    The people you CAN influence are the ones who are moving up from mass market cars, who maybe cannot afford a Bimmer or Benz, or lux buyers from other brands with less pedigree. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, SAAB(throwing that in for Rocky, even though they don't really belong).
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I disagree and think Cadillac, can and will bring buyers of those brands you mentioned to Cadillac. Cadillac, is more reliable, has a better warranty, and is less expensive. Sure the STS, XLR, need to be upgraded but the new CTS, current SRX, Escalade SUV & EXT (Truck) are top shelf, no exuses examples of what Cadillac, can do when they try. :shades:

    As far as Saab, goes they are getting better but would agree their is work that still needs to be done. ;) I assume by the end of this decade Saab, will be completely overhauled or nearly overhauled. ;)

    -Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I don't think it's entirely right to say that BMW and MB owners won't switch to Caddy. I am pretty sure there are still open minded German owners who know s good product when they see one (oh shut up, I am not saying that most German owners are close minded bas***ds :P ).

    However, I'll admit that it'll probably be harder for the loyal German owners to switch since they have been under German kool-aid poisoning for a long time. It'll be much easier for the younger buyers with less experience to consider Caddy because they simply have less to compare to. That's why I think the most important thing Caddy needs right now is a successful entry level program that can rival BMW's 3-series.

    Get them while they are young and dont let go.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    I disagree and think Cadillac, can and will bring buyers of those brands you mentioned to Cadillac. Cadillac, is more reliable, has a better warranty, and is less expensive. Sure the STS, XLR, need to be upgraded but the new CTS, current SRX, Escalade SUV & EXT (Truck) are top shelf, no exuses examples of what Cadillac, can do when they try.

    Oh puh-leez.
    Yes, Cadillac may be more reliable, yes it is certainly cheaper.
    But, you have ALOT to learn about what motivates,or de-motiavtes car buyers.
    Esp luxury ones.
    Lux cars are bough primarily on image and cachet.
    Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.

    Well not on the entry-level (CTS) and on the Truck/SUV (Escalade) ;)

    Still even to this day people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of ..........! ;)

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,067
    I had my Seville STS at the Cadillac dealer for an oil change this morning. The CTS is RED HOT! :shades: They only had one left and it was a demo. They sold out of them over the weekend. The interior of the CTS alone is worth the price of admission. I don't think I've seen that nice an interior in a Cadillac since the early 1960s. It puts the other cars in Cadillac's stable to shame. Once Cadillac works a little of that CTS magic into the rest of the line-up, it's really going to take off!

    I was eyeing up a leftover black 2007 DTS Performance, but I didn't give in to temptation.
  • Stever@EdmundsStever@Edmunds YooperlandPosts: 38,917
    Still even to this day people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of ..........!

    I always said that the LS 600hL is the Cadillac of Lexus.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Well that Cadillac (LS600hL) well isn't selling to well. :surprise:

    But yeah I get what you are saying !!! ;)

    -Rocky

    P.S. lemko, you need to take one (CTS) for a drive. Now that would be as tempting as being in a room with Jessica Simpson :P
  • rayainswrayainsw Posts: 2,476
    "you should buy the Pontiac G8. "

    OK.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    You've been drinking too much GM coolaid. As the owner of a 2007 SRX I can say that the interior is inferior in some respects to the interior of the 1963 Impala that I drove to school. If Cadillac is going to take on BMW or Mercedes, they have a long way to go just to get back to where they were in the 60's.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    "people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of "

    Not Mercedes people :P
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,661
    Jessica who???... :P ;) :blush:
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Mercedes, have about as much character as a Camcord. :P Well compared to a Cadillac.

    -Rocky

    P.S. I do not understand how you don't like your SRX :confuse: I'd love to own one. :)
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