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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Like I said, BMW has been pretty confusing with its model nomenclatures lately.

    Not nearly as bad as Lincoln, though


    Actually it is pretty easy at Lincoln. The models are all MK_. BMW uses numbers that on one side are easy 1,3,5,7 but on the other nonsensical 28, 35 etc.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The problem with BMW's numbers are that they change from year to year. The basic problem is that they are trying to identify the engine in the model name, but after a few engine changes, one has to be a BMW expert to really know what any of it means.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That's really not a problem for BMW, all the general buying public (except car enthusiasts) has to know is:

    335i > 328i
    550i > 535i > 528i
    760i > 750i

    Usually trophy wives don't care what's under the hood...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Generally speaking the larger the second and third digits are, the higher the model is in the pecking order. The problem is that the second and third digits vary from year to year, so the top of line model this year is a 335, but not too long ago it was a 330. This is what confuses one. The only difference between a 330 and a 335 is the turbo charger. Well, actually the turbo engine is all new, but both models were/are top of the line.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yeah, but it doesn't matter because 335i is still better than 330i because it's faster and more expensive. That's all the trophy wives need to know.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    R&T's latest edition has a comparison test of the CTS and Infinity G35. There is a sidebar explaining why they did not include a BMW 535 as planned. The CTS was priced nearly $20,000 less than the 535. The 535 had a nicer interior for the money, was the best performer for the extra money, and had the best ride/handling too. For the money, the CTS is a lot of car though.

    R&T rated the G35 better than the CTS in the comparison. The G35's smaller size and less weight gave it an edge in performance and handling.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    hmm...too big to beat the Infiniti G35...too cheap to beat the BMW 535...wonder what that means...

    I know! Bring on the smaller BTS!!! and push the CTS up about $15-17K!!!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I've got to go to the Cadillac dealer for an oil change for my Seville STS! Hope I don't give into temptation when I see those new CTS's!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think it means that the CTS is in a class by its self. This is not a bad thing, and with the 2008 upgrades, the CTS is now worth considering if the 3-series class seems too small, but the 5-series is way too expensive.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    go ahead...give in...you know you want to...
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I get what you're saying. Actually, my Dad will be in the market in about a year and those are his reasons. So, its good for select consumers, but I think Cadillac would benefit from a more traditional product structure...at least until they are on top of the game again (they can't come in changing rules as a rookie; wait for them to be the team captain, then they'll call the plays).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive. The XLR does not sell like the Mercedes SL's.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive.

    OK but they have to offer something to bring those BMW or Mercedes buyers over to Cadillac and keep the buyers they have. Does them little good to only sell to their current buyers.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I love GM/Cadillac as much as the next guy, but the interior on the XLR is sub-standard, and personally, I don't think its a looker on the outside either. Who wouldn't rather have a vette? So, for me at least, the XLR is not indicative of Cadillac's capabilities as a tier one luxury make.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Cadillac will do best to market cars that are not direct competition with BMW or Mercedes. If Cadillac can build something different, but American, then it should sell. Cadillac will not be able to sell something very expensive. The XLR does not sell like the Mercedes SL's.

    = = =

    While I agree with statements 1 & 2, I disagree with #3.

    If Caddy does build something unique & American, I think that they CAN sell it. Particularly if the Price is Right. Even if expensive.

    I look to Chevy. The Corvette ( full disclosure here: I drive a 2007 Coupe ) is rather expensive, compared to most other Chevys. Yet they sell in volumes that allow GM to 1) make a profit & 2) make a GM ‘flagship’.

    The XLR sells in very low volumes, true enough. Yet sharing parts & platform with the Corvette allows the XLR to survive. And the XLR-v. ( And I applaud Caddy for investing the time & $$s in all the ‘v-series’ cars. )

    I happen to disagree with a couple of aspects of Caddy’s approach \ direction in all but the CTS-v, however. My sense is that the ( very expensive ) STS-v and XLR-v are priced largely according to the very sophisticated and expensive powerplants under their hoods. STS-v for 2008 = approx. $76K and the XLR-v is over $97K.

    My opinion is that both the STS-v and the XLR-v could have been equipped with a larger, normally aspirated, simpler & cheaper motor – and would have sold much better. If they had been equipped with ( for example ) the 6.2L V8, from the 2008 Corvette – or even the 400 HP 6.0L V8 ( with 400\400 HP\TQ ) instead of the supercharged NorthStar, they would likely have had very similar acceleration and been a whole lot less expensive to develop & to produce. And to sell. That would clearly have been a large ‘step up’ from the NorthStar – at 320 \ 315 HP\TQ, and now offering barely improved acceleration compared to the new 300+ HP DI V6 available in the 2008 STS.

    The XLR-v, with the s/c NorthStar posts almost identical acceleration numbers to my 2007 Corvette w/automatic. (The automatic trans. is essentially identical in both cars.) For nearly $100 Grand.

    Though this lovely ( and expensive ) 4.4L s/c motor makes more HP and marginally more TQ than the 6.0L V8 in the Corvette, they are so close in acceleration largely due to the XLR-v’s much greater weight – 3800#+ vs the Corvette at close to 3200#.

    The STS-v with 469 HP and 439 TQ is a 13.2 second sedan, according to R&T’s test. I’d bet that with the current Corvette’s 430 HP & 424 TQ would be capable of a mid- to high 13 second quarter. And would feel ‘just as quick’ and \ or ‘just as fast’ to 90+% of potential buyers. And it might very well also even feel ‘more American’ than the s/c NorthStar.

    And these cars could then have been marketed at something like a ( clearly, I am guessing here ) $10K or more ‘discount’, compared to those ‘-v’ cars actual MSRPs. I think an STS-v at closer to $63K or $64K would have been much more likely to develop into a sales success for Caddy. At almost $75K to start, the STS-v pricing makes for difficult volume sales – even for a Caddy. Note that $63K - $64K qualifies as “very expensive”, to me. But I believe that Caddy ** COULD ** sell the STS-v in significantly higher volumes at this MSRP \ Price Point.

    Said another way, if GM had decided to ‘pull ahead’ development of the 6.2L V8, instead of developing that s/c & hand-built version of the NorthStar, and plug the n/a 6.2L V8 into the STS-v at launch – and the Corvette a year later, perhaps – this would have been far better received. And would have sold better.

    Again, I mean no disrespect to the NorthStar motor. GM’s continued development of “regular” V8s strongly suggests to me that this would have been a better, as well as cheaper, route to an STS-v and an XLR-v. And partly here again I am considering that “different, but American” aspect.

    And I suspect that the 6.2L V8 is actually cheaper to produce than the base, 4.6L n/a NorthStar V8 – whereas the s/c NorthStar is clearly MUCH more expensive. Thus, an STS-v with the 6.2L V8 and 1SG level of equipment, plus a few unique touches, could probably be sold at a very modest ‘markup’ over a ‘regular’, NorthStar 1SG. Currently priced at roughly $61K MSRP.

    The same would apply to the XLR-v.

    And I will reiterate here that I would really, REALLY like to see Caddy succeed – and establish itself as a top tier Luxury Sports Brand. The 2008 CTS appears to be a large step in the right direction, though we’ll see where sales are after 6 to 9 months or a year on the market.

    Just my 0.02 gallons worth . . .
    I could be wrong.
    Cheers,
    - Ray
    Considering the Corvette, with top option group, to be nearly as much a luxury GT car as the XLR, for much less money and featuring better acceleration ( highly American ) to boot . . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well the problem is that if Cadillac is going to take the BMW or Mercedes buyers away from BMW and Mercedes, they will have to build something better and cheaper. I think this is not possible unless it is done in China. The CTS is a perfect example: it is not really a 3-series or a 5-series car; it also does not cost as much as the bigger 5-series, so there is a market for it, but probably the market is to those who want a bigger sport sedan than the 3-series, but don't want to pay 5-series prices.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Your example of the Corvette is wrong: the Corvette is a very good sports car for the money, it is cheap compared to European sports cars. This is why it sells. The XLR is nicer than the Corvette and with the DOHC V8, is more refined. However, it is not worth what it costs. The Corvette is a much better choice.

    However, putting the pushrod engines in the higher end Cadillac's to make V-series performance sedans is not what the market wants - it may be what you want, but you should buy the Pontiac G8. The true luxury performance sedan market is expecting refinement more like the AMG Mercedes models - the 6.2 liter V8.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    OK but they have to offer something to bring those BMW or Mercedes buyers over to Cadillac and keep the buyers they have. Does them little good to only sell to their current buyers.

    The truth of the matter is, you are not going to bring a current BMW or Mercedes owner over to Cadillac.
    Those people have drunk the Germans kool-aid, and aren't gonna change.
    Unless their portfolios tank.
    The people you CAN influence are the ones who are moving up from mass market cars, who maybe cannot afford a Bimmer or Benz, or lux buyers from other brands with less pedigree. Lexus, Audi, Infiniti, Volvo, SAAB(throwing that in for Rocky, even though they don't really belong).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I disagree and think Cadillac, can and will bring buyers of those brands you mentioned to Cadillac. Cadillac, is more reliable, has a better warranty, and is less expensive. Sure the STS, XLR, need to be upgraded but the new CTS, current SRX, Escalade SUV & EXT (Truck) are top shelf, no exuses examples of what Cadillac, can do when they try. :shades:

    As far as Saab, goes they are getting better but would agree their is work that still needs to be done. ;) I assume by the end of this decade Saab, will be completely overhauled or nearly overhauled. ;)

    -Rocky
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't think it's entirely right to say that BMW and MB owners won't switch to Caddy. I am pretty sure there are still open minded German owners who know s good product when they see one (oh shut up, I am not saying that most German owners are close minded bas***ds :P ).

    However, I'll admit that it'll probably be harder for the loyal German owners to switch since they have been under German kool-aid poisoning for a long time. It'll be much easier for the younger buyers with less experience to consider Caddy because they simply have less to compare to. That's why I think the most important thing Caddy needs right now is a successful entry level program that can rival BMW's 3-series.

    Get them while they are young and dont let go.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    I disagree and think Cadillac, can and will bring buyers of those brands you mentioned to Cadillac. Cadillac, is more reliable, has a better warranty, and is less expensive. Sure the STS, XLR, need to be upgraded but the new CTS, current SRX, Escalade SUV & EXT (Truck) are top shelf, no exuses examples of what Cadillac, can do when they try.

    Oh puh-leez.
    Yes, Cadillac may be more reliable, yes it is certainly cheaper.
    But, you have ALOT to learn about what motivates,or de-motiavtes car buyers.
    Esp luxury ones.
    Lux cars are bough primarily on image and cachet.
    Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Cadillac's image is well below the Germans. It just is.

    Well not on the entry-level (CTS) and on the Truck/SUV (Escalade) ;)

    Still even to this day people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of ..........! ;)

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I had my Seville STS at the Cadillac dealer for an oil change this morning. The CTS is RED HOT! :shades: They only had one left and it was a demo. They sold out of them over the weekend. The interior of the CTS alone is worth the price of admission. I don't think I've seen that nice an interior in a Cadillac since the early 1960s. It puts the other cars in Cadillac's stable to shame. Once Cadillac works a little of that CTS magic into the rest of the line-up, it's really going to take off!

    I was eyeing up a leftover black 2007 DTS Performance, but I didn't give in to temptation.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Still even to this day people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of ..........!

    I always said that the LS 600hL is the Cadillac of Lexus.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well that Cadillac (LS600hL) well isn't selling to well. :surprise:

    But yeah I get what you are saying !!! ;)

    -Rocky

    P.S. lemko, you need to take one (CTS) for a drive. Now that would be as tempting as being in a room with Jessica Simpson :P
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    "you should buy the Pontiac G8. "

    OK.
    2022 X3 M40i
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    You've been drinking too much GM coolaid. As the owner of a 2007 SRX I can say that the interior is inferior in some respects to the interior of the 1963 Impala that I drove to school. If Cadillac is going to take on BMW or Mercedes, they have a long way to go just to get back to where they were in the 60's.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    "people will still use the phrase that........ is the "Cadillac" of "

    Not Mercedes people :P
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Jessica who???... :P ;):blush:
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Mercedes, have about as much character as a Camcord. :P Well compared to a Cadillac.

    -Rocky

    P.S. I do not understand how you don't like your SRX :confuse: I'd love to own one. :)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Okay I could of said Christina Model. :P

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Does your SRX have Magneride ????

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, at least I can count on my Cadillac to get me to work while it's a crapshoot for my BIL with his S-Class Mercedes.

    I'm not much for SUVs, but the SRX is a lot more attractive than most of those vehicles out there. It kind of reminds me of a CTS wagon. The SRX certainly would benefit from a CTS-like interior treatment.

    Salesman at the dealership called me last night. Says he has a leftover loaded 2007 DTS Performance in black with 0% financing and incentives. I really shouldn't, at least not at this time of year. He'd really have to make an extraordinary deal for me to go for it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    DTS and "performance" a bit of an oxymoron? :P
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I like my SRX. However, the hard plastic used on the bottom half of the inside door trim does not look very luxurious. I think that if part of it were covered with carpet material it would look better and the carpet would not show scuff marks like the plastic does. So what I am saying is that the interior could be better for a luxury midsize SUV.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    No, the magnetic ride is not available with the 20 inch wheels that I do have, The big wheels come with big tires all around so they can be rotated. Standard wheels come with smaller tires in front and larger in the rear so a normal rotation is not possible. People are wearing out the front tires much faster than the rears.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well my suggestion is to wait fora Buick Lucerne Super ;)

    They will have cash on the hood by summer and are much cheaper MSRP unless like you said he gives you one heck of a deal on the DTS. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    No MRC with 20's ???? :surprise: Interesting !!!! I gues myselfpersonally would of took the Magneride, but those Dubs sure look nice. ;) :shades:

    -Rocky
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    Well not on the entry-level (CTS) and on the Truck/SUV (Escalade)

    Dynamically, the CTS has a way to go.

    As for the Escalade, its a hopped up Tahoe that no self respecting German engineer or designer is at all scared of.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Dynamically, the CTS has a way to go.

    compared to ?

    As for the Escalade, its a hopped up Tahoe that no self respecting German engineer or designer is at all scared of.

    Well they might not be scared of it but it sure takes a huge chunk of their potential market away as the slade is the #1 Luxury SUV sold. ;)

    -Rocky
  • sguerrsguerr Member Posts: 1
    I had a Mercedes and traded it in for an Escalade and will get another(Escalade ) in the spring. I made the switch when I took my ML in an oil change and they gave a C30 for a loaner. Let me tell you that if you don't spend a million bucks, you don't get Mercedes quality. What you get is an underpower no option Camry. Cadillac is the best deal for the price, performance, room, a full list of options and yes quality. The Escalade is not re badged Tahoe. Remember that there is a Denali in between them. By the way isn't a Lexus G 470 a gussied up Seqouia? God forbid!!!!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ummm, if the Escalade is not a re-badged Tahoe / Denali, then what is it? Basically, yet another boring large SUV. The Murano or CX-7 Mazda, at least are showing some design interest. Most all this stuff in same ol' same o'.
    -Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Glad to see you back posting Loren. :) Even if it's stuff I strongly disagree with you on !!!! :P

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The new CTS is WAY nicer than the Mercedes C30. You're paying way too much for that three-pointed star on the hood. Heck, a new Malibu is probably nicer than a C30.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    C30 is a Volvo.

    image

    The proper comparison for the CTS is to the E-class anyway.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    While the CTS may be about the same size as and E-class, I very much doubt that it compares in quality of materials (interior for example) or over all refinement with the E-class. For the money, the CTS is a good car, but it is an entry level luxury car or sports sedan. Entry level luxury means not quite luxury, which is what top of the line Buicks and Oldsmobiles used to be.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    You get more than just bigger wheels and tires. The radiator grill is more like the V-series grills and I also get a limited slip rear end with AWD. AWD is not available with limited slip otherwise.

    Magnetic ride is not available on the V-series STS, and is only available on one trim level on the base STS model. My impression is that Magnetic ride at Cadillac is more for ride than handling. My tires are 50 series, while the base tires on the SRX are 60's in front and 55's in back. My tires should improve handling a bit over the standard tires. But I wanted them so I could rotate tires and hopefully have them all last longer. The limited slip rear axle should help on icy roads too.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Escalade is just a tahoe with a bigger engine and more bling. They even use the same steering wheel adjustment so every time you move the wheel you are reminded how much money you wasted on your blinged tahoe. (They might have finally put in a nicer wheel adjustment on the brand new tahoe the last one I drove had the wheel in the right place so I didn't move it)

    The GX470 is a gussied up 4Runner/Prado.

    The Sequoia does not have a Lexus derivative.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    compared to ?

    Uh, the Germans.
    Look at the fit/finish of a Benz, Bimmer, Audi.
    Look at the quality of the plastics,materials.

    Well they might not be scared of it but it sure takes a huge chunk of their potential market away as the slade is the #1 Luxury SUV sold.

    I see you already have your salespersons hat on.
    Just because Caddy gives more of them away doesn't make it the best.
    No way an Escalade would ever make it around the Nurburgring.
    It's ponderous with a capital P.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Just because Caddy gives more of them away doesn't make it the best.
    No way an Escalade would ever make it around the Nurburgring.
    It's ponderous with a capital P.


    Not sure what american will ever want to take his SUV around the Nurburgring. Not what SUV's are for.

    Caddy sold 52,000 Escalades last year for about an average of about $65k. No truck from BMW/Mercedes/Volvo comes close to that volume at any price. Not being a salesmen but just stating facts. You may not like them and that is fine but the public in general does.
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