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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • If you are talking about sports sedans most German car owners do not respect Lexus.


    Oh no. I wasn't talking about the sports cars. i was referring to the LS and how it has fared against the S and 7. The IS hasn't done well and the GS is worse. The ES is, well, I don't know WHAT the ES is, but it sells. It's not compared to any Bimmer or Benz IM...


    the CTS is a better car than the A4 and C class right now. The 3 is sportier but not necessarily a better all around car. There is no objective reason to by a competing Audi or MB over the CTS.


    Objective reason?
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Rocky, I will give the best GM can serve up a test drive.

    I do want you to give the CTS-V a try habitat1 :shades:

    -Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    Dec 21 edition of WSJ has an article on the 08 CTS. It mentions that CTS was Motor Trend’s car of the year. It has a table listing specs of CTS, G35, Lexus GS and 5 Series.

    The writer, Jeff Sabatini said that CTS is now a legitimate competitor to any sub $50K sedan on the market. Other items in the article:

    “Inside, the improvements are more revolutionary, starting with a wholesale upgrade of the materials and design. The crowning achievement is an elegant implementation of the navigation-system display….If anything can cause the German auto makers to feel shame for their maladroit efforts at integrating navigation screens, the CTS can. Cadillac has clearly set the industry standard.”

    “Staking a place amid the crowded field of rear-wheel drive luxury sedans with sporting pretensions is a tricky business, but Cadillac has positioned the new CTS almost perfectly to maximize its marketability. Like the old CTS, the new one is roughly the size of the BMW 5-Series but priced closer to the smaller BMW 3-Series. It’s flashier than a Mercedes C-Class, more fun to drive than any Lexus and more comfortable than either BMW.”

    “….what really impresses about the CTS is that it captures GM doing two things for which it historically has shown little capacity. The first is continuing to improve a product over successive generations; the second is paying attention to details. Both practices will be far more important to the company’s long-term success than the fleeting acclaim of this single model.”
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    My SRX's (a 2007) interior is OK, but for the money I think it could have been, and should have been, better. But it is a utility vehicle, so perhaps it is more or less what it ought to be. I would expect the STS interior to be much nicer. The CTS is probably OK.

    As far as the CTS's handling goes, Road and Track does not think it is nearly in the 5-series class. Both the 3-series and 5-series can do 0.9 G's on a skidpad.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    it is a lexus camry :P
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,860
    I haven't seen it in person, but isn't the CTS Nav display very much like that of the C-class? I've seen the new C Nav in person, and it's pretty slick...the CTS looked very similar in the pics I saw.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "Objective reason? "

    CTS has more space and a superior interior to C or A4 and has more power than both. I cant think of one good reason to buy a C or A4 over the 2008 CTS. Not to mention it looks better and has more space. Can you think of any good reasons not to get the CTS? I find the C class interior to be very bland and too plasticky for my tastes. The CTS is much warmer and has details such as a stitched dashboard that you wont find on the C class.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    "As far as the CTS's handling goes, Road and Track does not think it is nearly in the 5-series class. Both the 3-series and 5-series can do 0.9 G's on a skidpad. "

    I havent read any review that stated the CTS isnt close to the 3 or 5 in handling. The CTS pulled .89gs in Motor Trend which is very close to .9gs. R&T compared the CTS to G35 and had very little negative to say about the CTS even though it came in 2nd. The CTS' handling is world class, it posted a higher lane change speed than the 328i in the recent C&D comparo. That is very impressive when you consider the CTS weighs about 500lbs more than the BMW.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    nearly as good is not the same thing as better than....
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    who said "better than"? you cant make a car that handles better than BMW because they are the top of that category. How do you exceed excellent? you can't in this case. The Cadillac is as capable as the 3 and 5 and that was my point. furthermore it has a better interior than either and is far cheaper than the 5 and has better dealer satisfaction scores. I'll take the CTS any day.

    In real world driving this is all moot anyway so it doesnt matter that the 3 series can pull .02gs more than the CTS. The buyers wont know and if it wasnt for precise testing the auto reviewers woudlnt even know. On top of that the CTS has outbraked its competition in every comparo I have seen. Apparently you can beat BMW in some things.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Road & Track got 0.86 G's with the CTS, while the Infinity G35 did 0.88 and the 535i was 0.91. I might have expected you to comment on the difference in tyres, where the CTS is running 50 series tyres, which should be somewhat better on real world highways, and the others are using 40 (or so) series. I think BMW's ride and handling could be exceeded, but only at some cost and with better tires. For the CTS to exceed BMW's ride and handling would require some additional refinement of the suspension too.

    I am not saying that I think Cadillac's are bad, but I am saying that they are not top dog.

    Car & Driver's comparison puts the CTS at 0.87, while the 3-series is 0.90 and the infinity is 0.89. This could mean that the R&T 5-series would have been at 0.92. In any case the CTS seems to be third rate, not second best.

    In a separate test (so comparing may not be valid), the Lexus IS F (C&D) got 0.92 G's, which may match the 5-series.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Not to mention it looks better

    Perhaps if you are into chrome grills and Rock em Sock em Robot exterior lines. It's still ugly GM on the outside to me. Let's just say that looks are subjective and some have a taste for GM styling and others don't.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Styling is subjective, as is ride and handling. Skidpad numbers do not translate into handling on real roads. I would say that the CTS looks better than the Aztec did, and I think better than the 80 Seville. BMW's styling has (of late) not been great either (7-series was worst). Audi has a big grill too.

    Perhaps the 59 Cadillac's could make a comeback eldo :)
  • Can you think of any good reasons not to get the CTS?

    You're looking at it from a logical point of view. Not only that, you almost come off as saying the CTS is the perfect car...lol With that said, some people ask the same question about cars like the Camry or Accord. They will say those are the prefect cars for a lot less money. Do we really need all the extras? No, we want them.

    But there will be plenty people who WILL choose a Merc C-Class over the Caddy CTS for many reasons:

    1. It's a Benz. Not everyone is excited or impressed that Caddy has had a good year or 2. past reviews weren't favorable to the car.

    2. Caddy doesn't have that image or wow factor that Mercedes has yet. They used to, but that was years ago.

    3. You think the Caddy looks better then the Mercedes. Not everyone does.

    4. The Caddy is too big. Some people do prefer smaller cars.

    5. It's made by General Motors. There are many people who will NEVER buy an American car again.

    6. Price. The Caddy CTS reviewed ( $44,715) costs more then the Mercedes C350 tested ($41,935.) Price is a big factor for some, especially when the standard model is $32-$34k. Some may say if I have to put another 10 grand into it I my as well get a Benz. Why? See #s 1 & 2 above...

    7. Higher fuel economy? It wouldn't be a factor to me, but some people really look at those things. The Benz was 20.6, Caddy was 18.3 combined

    8. The 2008 CTS is completely redesigned. Many people are leery of buying the 1st year new model. They have a wait & see approach...

    9. Demographics. Here in Florida, I see people in their 50's and above driving the CTS. I see people 15-20 years younger driving the C Class. Is it like that everywhere? I have no clue, but that's what I see in my area. I see the CTS everywhere. It's a VERY popular car.

    I think the CTS is a nice car. I'm glad GM has a potential winner on their hands. Yes it has good reviews, but it all comes down to sales. Hopefully it does well.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,663
    And:

    "General Motors has announced the recall of 276,000 vehicles. The recall is due to a faulty pinion seal, which can cause fluid leaks. The recall affects the 2005-07 Cadillac CTS, CTS-V, SRX, STS and STS-V; 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice; and 2007 Saturn Sky. "

    Now we all know Mercedes has had its own quality problems of late. But that is just for the last 7 or 8 years? GM, well, quality issues have been a fact of life for about 30 years...

    I personally think the new CTS is a quantum leap above the prior version in terms of style. Not a fan of the front end, but they've done a nice job of cleaning up a bunch of the superfluous, overdone lines and shapes. And the prior CTS had possibly the worst interior style/materials that I"ve seen on a "Premium" car. The new interior works for me.

    Same issue with the XLR. I like it and am considering buying a used one as a toy. But the interior style and material appearance, and more importantly, the much too highg msrp spelled disappointing sales for the XLR from the get-go.

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,193
    I WILL any Cadillac over a Mercedes-Benz many reasons:

    1. It's a Cadillac. I have always been excited or impressed by a Caddy. Mercedes has had many BAD years over the last 15. I don't think there's been a truly great Mercedes since the very excellent W126 S-Class. If any of my Cadillacs given me the grief that my brother-in-law's S430 has given him, I'd have defected to Lexus by now.

    2. Caddy once again has the image or wow factor as it did years ago - not that I didn't like their styling even during their "dark ages."

    3. Do I think the Caddy looks better then the Mercedes? YES!!!!

    4. The Caddy DTS is the perfect size for me though I find the CTS too small.

    5. It's made by General Motors: precisely ANOTHER REASON I buy a Cadillac!

    6. Price. Heck yeah! I've always come out way ahead on price compared to a Benz.

    7. Higher fuel economy? It not my biggest factor, but I'm still concerned about it.

    8. The 2008 CTS is completely redesigned. Well so was my 1994 DeVille and it was pretty-much trouble-free.

    9. Demographics? Well, I was only 24 when I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, 29 when I bought my 1994 Cadillac DeVille, 37 when I bought my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and 42 when I got my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. All those ages are < 50!

    I also think the CTS is a nice car. I'm glad GM has a definate winner on their hands. Sometimes I think I should've got one of them instead of my DTS, but by the time I'd have optioned it out to the level of my DTS, I'd have paid more.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    lemko,

    You are indeed a true blue Cadillac man !!!! :shades: :shades: :shades:

    -Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    5. It's made by General Motors: precisely ANOTHER REASON I buy a Cadillac!

    That's one I haven't heard before. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    But hey, I do admire someone with passion, even if it's diametrically opposed to mine. Apathy is the root of most evil in the business world. Happy holidays.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    That's one I haven't heard before.

    You never heard that one from me habby ? :confuse: :surprise:

    I know imidazol97, has implied that at least on numerous occassions. ;)

    Trust me their are plenty of others who buy GM's brands because they are made by General Motors. ;)

    -Rocky

    P.S. Happy Holidays to you also !!! :shades:
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I have one of the 2007 SRX's. I have checked the garage floor to see if there is any sign of leaking. Of course all of the fluid could have leaked out before I got it home, but after 10,000 miles there should be some evidence of problems.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Posts: 2,663
    I hope you have no issues. Better to follow the recall, though. No matter the maker, I would never wish any quality/reliability issues on an owner.

    GM is doing better things. I would hope that recalls will soon become the exception...

    Happy Holidays to all! And, of course, Go Pats! 15-0 by 8pm tonight!

    '13 Jaguar XF, '11 BMW 535xi, '02 Lexus RX300

  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    One good reason to buy a Cadillac is that there are dealers (with service departments) nearly everywhere, or not too far away from anywhere. But the higher end imports have a very limited number of dealers, which are hundreds of miles from anywhere.

    I do have to comment that buying a DTS instead of the Lucerne does not make much sense to me, but of course it does depend on what one wanted and what sort of deal you get. The sigma Cadillacs are a different matter though, as they are the only sigma vehicles available.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    So far I have not gotten a recall, but as I read it, the recall letters are going out for a February recall. I do know that some have had problems with noisy rear ends, and perhaps that is related.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,193
    You know what, I've been thinking the same thing. I could've saved big time buying a Lucerne CXS over the Cadillac DTS Performance, but I like the Cadillac styling that much better. I would've chosen the four-holer over the three-holer as I think the big Lucerne body would've been too much of a match for the 3.8 litre V-6. The practical side of me says the Lucerne would've been the sensible choice, but the emotional side of me won over again.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    Well if you would of went Lucrne, I wouldof reccommended you get the "SUPER" but I saw a black DTS, on my wayback from Troy, Mi thursday and thought of you. It was a performance DTS, model with all the bells and whistles. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,193
    That sounds like my car. Did it have the body color grille? My car has just about every conceivable option on it.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    lemko, we parked next to it on a rest room break at Micky D's but I did not look at the front of it. ;)

    So I assume yours have Magneride ???

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    My gawd pal, I got a hair up my rear and wondered if Lincoln, had any new info on the Lincoln MKS, and boy, oh boy, that is one hot momma !!!! :shades:

    Lincoln, is finally becoming competitive again. I tell you what if they can offer a great red carpet lease on the MKS, it could steal some CTS, sales. :surprise:

    I'm just glad Ford/Lincoln, has finally made a car I would like to own. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,193
    It has that and more! ;)
  • mrsyjmrsyj Posts: 77
    skidpad is a measure of grip, not necessarily handling. As I stated in the recent C&D test the CTS posted a faster lane change speed than the G35 and 328i in spite of being far heavier than both. The CTS' skidpad performance is going to be compromised by its weight and tires as you noted. That does not mean that its not as nimble or capable as the BMW or G35.
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