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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Road & Track got 0.86 G's with the CTS, while the Infinity G35 did 0.88 and the 535i was 0.91. I might have expected you to comment on the difference in tyres, where the CTS is running 50 series tyres, which should be somewhat better on real world highways, and the others are using 40 (or so) series. I think BMW's ride and handling could be exceeded, but only at some cost and with better tires. For the CTS to exceed BMW's ride and handling would require some additional refinement of the suspension too.

    I am not saying that I think Cadillac's are bad, but I am saying that they are not top dog.

    Car & Driver's comparison puts the CTS at 0.87, while the 3-series is 0.90 and the infinity is 0.89. This could mean that the R&T 5-series would have been at 0.92. In any case the CTS seems to be third rate, not second best.

    In a separate test (so comparing may not be valid), the Lexus IS F (C&D) got 0.92 G's, which may match the 5-series.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Not to mention it looks better

    Perhaps if you are into chrome grills and Rock em Sock em Robot exterior lines. It's still ugly GM on the outside to me. Let's just say that looks are subjective and some have a taste for GM styling and others don't.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Styling is subjective, as is ride and handling. Skidpad numbers do not translate into handling on real roads. I would say that the CTS looks better than the Aztec did, and I think better than the 80 Seville. BMW's styling has (of late) not been great either (7-series was worst). Audi has a big grill too.

    Perhaps the 59 Cadillac's could make a comeback eldo :)
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Can you think of any good reasons not to get the CTS?

    You're looking at it from a logical point of view. Not only that, you almost come off as saying the CTS is the perfect car...lol With that said, some people ask the same question about cars like the Camry or Accord. They will say those are the prefect cars for a lot less money. Do we really need all the extras? No, we want them.

    But there will be plenty people who WILL choose a Merc C-Class over the Caddy CTS for many reasons:

    1. It's a Benz. Not everyone is excited or impressed that Caddy has had a good year or 2. past reviews weren't favorable to the car.

    2. Caddy doesn't have that image or wow factor that Mercedes has yet. They used to, but that was years ago.

    3. You think the Caddy looks better then the Mercedes. Not everyone does.

    4. The Caddy is too big. Some people do prefer smaller cars.

    5. It's made by General Motors. There are many people who will NEVER buy an American car again.

    6. Price. The Caddy CTS reviewed ( $44,715) costs more then the Mercedes C350 tested ($41,935.) Price is a big factor for some, especially when the standard model is $32-$34k. Some may say if I have to put another 10 grand into it I my as well get a Benz. Why? See #s 1 & 2 above...

    7. Higher fuel economy? It wouldn't be a factor to me, but some people really look at those things. The Benz was 20.6, Caddy was 18.3 combined

    8. The 2008 CTS is completely redesigned. Many people are leery of buying the 1st year new model. They have a wait & see approach...

    9. Demographics. Here in Florida, I see people in their 50's and above driving the CTS. I see people 15-20 years younger driving the C Class. Is it like that everywhere? I have no clue, but that's what I see in my area. I see the CTS everywhere. It's a VERY popular car.

    I think the CTS is a nice car. I'm glad GM has a potential winner on their hands. Yes it has good reviews, but it all comes down to sales. Hopefully it does well.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    And:

    "General Motors has announced the recall of 276,000 vehicles. The recall is due to a faulty pinion seal, which can cause fluid leaks. The recall affects the 2005-07 Cadillac CTS, CTS-V, SRX, STS and STS-V; 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice; and 2007 Saturn Sky. "

    Now we all know Mercedes has had its own quality problems of late. But that is just for the last 7 or 8 years? GM, well, quality issues have been a fact of life for about 30 years...

    I personally think the new CTS is a quantum leap above the prior version in terms of style. Not a fan of the front end, but they've done a nice job of cleaning up a bunch of the superfluous, overdone lines and shapes. And the prior CTS had possibly the worst interior style/materials that I"ve seen on a "Premium" car. The new interior works for me.

    Same issue with the XLR. I like it and am considering buying a used one as a toy. But the interior style and material appearance, and more importantly, the much too highg msrp spelled disappointing sales for the XLR from the get-go.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I WILL any Cadillac over a Mercedes-Benz many reasons:

    1. It's a Cadillac. I have always been excited or impressed by a Caddy. Mercedes has had many BAD years over the last 15. I don't think there's been a truly great Mercedes since the very excellent W126 S-Class. If any of my Cadillacs given me the grief that my brother-in-law's S430 has given him, I'd have defected to Lexus by now.

    2. Caddy once again has the image or wow factor as it did years ago - not that I didn't like their styling even during their "dark ages."

    3. Do I think the Caddy looks better then the Mercedes? YES!!!!

    4. The Caddy DTS is the perfect size for me though I find the CTS too small.

    5. It's made by General Motors: precisely ANOTHER REASON I buy a Cadillac!

    6. Price. Heck yeah! I've always come out way ahead on price compared to a Benz.

    7. Higher fuel economy? It not my biggest factor, but I'm still concerned about it.

    8. The 2008 CTS is completely redesigned. Well so was my 1994 DeVille and it was pretty-much trouble-free.

    9. Demographics? Well, I was only 24 when I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, 29 when I bought my 1994 Cadillac DeVille, 37 when I bought my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and 42 when I got my 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance. All those ages are < 50!

    I also think the CTS is a nice car. I'm glad GM has a definate winner on their hands. Sometimes I think I should've got one of them instead of my DTS, but by the time I'd have optioned it out to the level of my DTS, I'd have paid more.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    lemko,

    You are indeed a true blue Cadillac man !!!! :shades: :shades: :shades:

    -Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    5. It's made by General Motors: precisely ANOTHER REASON I buy a Cadillac!

    That's one I haven't heard before. :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:

    But hey, I do admire someone with passion, even if it's diametrically opposed to mine. Apathy is the root of most evil in the business world. Happy holidays.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    That's one I haven't heard before.

    You never heard that one from me habby ? :confuse: :surprise:

    I know imidazol97, has implied that at least on numerous occassions. ;)

    Trust me their are plenty of others who buy GM's brands because they are made by General Motors. ;)

    -Rocky

    P.S. Happy Holidays to you also !!! :shades:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have one of the 2007 SRX's. I have checked the garage floor to see if there is any sign of leaking. Of course all of the fluid could have leaked out before I got it home, but after 10,000 miles there should be some evidence of problems.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I hope you have no issues. Better to follow the recall, though. No matter the maker, I would never wish any quality/reliability issues on an owner.

    GM is doing better things. I would hope that recalls will soon become the exception...

    Happy Holidays to all! And, of course, Go Pats! 15-0 by 8pm tonight!

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    One good reason to buy a Cadillac is that there are dealers (with service departments) nearly everywhere, or not too far away from anywhere. But the higher end imports have a very limited number of dealers, which are hundreds of miles from anywhere.

    I do have to comment that buying a DTS instead of the Lucerne does not make much sense to me, but of course it does depend on what one wanted and what sort of deal you get. The sigma Cadillacs are a different matter though, as they are the only sigma vehicles available.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    So far I have not gotten a recall, but as I read it, the recall letters are going out for a February recall. I do know that some have had problems with noisy rear ends, and perhaps that is related.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You know what, I've been thinking the same thing. I could've saved big time buying a Lucerne CXS over the Cadillac DTS Performance, but I like the Cadillac styling that much better. I would've chosen the four-holer over the three-holer as I think the big Lucerne body would've been too much of a match for the 3.8 litre V-6. The practical side of me says the Lucerne would've been the sensible choice, but the emotional side of me won over again.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well if you would of went Lucrne, I wouldof reccommended you get the "SUPER" but I saw a black DTS, on my wayback from Troy, Mi thursday and thought of you. It was a performance DTS, model with all the bells and whistles. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That sounds like my car. Did it have the body color grille? My car has just about every conceivable option on it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    lemko, we parked next to it on a rest room break at Micky D's but I did not look at the front of it. ;)

    So I assume yours have Magneride ???

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    My gawd pal, I got a hair up my rear and wondered if Lincoln, had any new info on the Lincoln MKS, and boy, oh boy, that is one hot momma !!!! :shades:

    Lincoln, is finally becoming competitive again. I tell you what if they can offer a great red carpet lease on the MKS, it could steal some CTS, sales. :surprise:

    I'm just glad Ford/Lincoln, has finally made a car I would like to own. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It has that and more! ;)
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    skidpad is a measure of grip, not necessarily handling. As I stated in the recent C&D test the CTS posted a faster lane change speed than the G35 and 328i in spite of being far heavier than both. The CTS' skidpad performance is going to be compromised by its weight and tires as you noted. That does not mean that its not as nimble or capable as the BMW or G35.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Perhaps if you are into chrome grills and Rock em Sock em Robot exterior lines. It's still ugly GM on the outside to me. Let's just say that looks are subjective and some have a taste for GM styling and others don't. "

    from my perspective only die hard GM bashers find the CTS unattractive. I agree that styling is subjective but sometimes almost everyone agrees a design is on point. The CTS is one of those cases. Even the most jaded anti GM press outlets have praised the car for its looks and I agree 100%. Its certainly more original and compelling than anything coming out of Lexus these days. Nice to see a design that doesnt seem to be copied from Mercedes or BMW.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I think the CTS is a nice car. I'm glad GM has a potential winner on their hands. Yes it has good reviews, but it all comes down to sales. Hopefully it does well."

    Since its been on sale the 2008 CTS has outsold the C class, TL, IS, A4 and G35. I would say the car s doing just fine and will continue to do so. While there are many people who wont give the car a chance because its American and they hate American cars and would love to see GM go bankrupt, there are plenty of people who will drive a no excuse car like teh CTS. Read some of the consumer reviews right here on this site, many owners have traded in European cars. BTW, the CTS isnt too big compared to luxury cars like the E class, and 5 series. Its only big when compared to the compact 3 series and c class. I see nothing admirable about a compact luxury car that costs $40k. C&D noted the Civic is larger than the C class. While some people hold on to the notion that smaller means better handling we know there are plenty of midsize vehicles out here than handle just fine.

    Cadillac has been getting good reviews on their products since the 2003 CTS came out nearly 6 years ago. This isn't a new phenomenon. CAdillacs were criticized in the past for being too soft but they have never hit the quality lows than MB has hit in the last 10-15 years.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Now we all know Mercedes has had its own quality problems of late. But that is just for the last 7 or 8 years? GM, well, quality issues have been a fact of life for about 30 years... "

    overstatement to say the least. We have no proof that GM has been making poor quality vehicles across the board for 30 years. In addition, lets remember that MB has never had a quality reputation equal to that of Lexus. In fact the Japanese luxury brands were the ones who taught the Euro brands that quality and customer service were important. Furthermore we know that GM quality is improving but I'm not sure we have much evidence of the same for MB. I would never exclude the CTS just because I thought MB made a better car than GM 30 years ago. That is irrelevant now. Right now all the surveys show Cadillac has better service and quality than Mercedes and thats all that matters.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    We have no proof that GM has been making poor quality vehicles across the board for 30 years.

    :surprise:

    Pffft. Shill.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    We have no proof that GM has been making poor quality vehicles across the board for 30 years.

    You were doing just fine until that statement (well, except saying that Lexus' L-Finesse design is copied from BMW and MB. You need an eye check).

    True color always shows...
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    It's not incorrect, as GM even during Roger Smith's time still had vehicles like the Buick T-types and such that could take a licking and keep on ticking to an extent that would destroy a foreign make. What GM lacked was more along the lines of fashionableness and marketing.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    ...make it personal.

    Reasonable people can disagree, and sweeping generalizations can be fallacious.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "We have no proof that GM has been making poor quality vehicles across the board for 30 years."

    Across the board? There is no evidence. We do know that GM quality wasnt as good as Toyota quality in the past but that is not the same as saying every GM product ever made in the last 30 years was junk. My personal experience and the experiences of other car owners I know are proof of that. Gm had a problem with inconsistent quality but you cannot argue that they never made a quality vehicle until 2006 or 2007. I really havent heard much about MB quality other than Lexus sent them back to the drawing board after showing them luxury cars could be reliable.

    I'm not going to evaluate current offerings based on twisted perceptions of automotive qualityin the 80s nor am I going to base it on what people are the country club are going to think. The whole "but its a Mercedes" argument doesn't mean much to me when comparing luxury vehicles. I would take the CTS over the C class and the STS over the E class any day of the week. The supposed unreliability of 30 year old GM cars wouldn't affect my decision, nor would the fact that some friends would "respect" me more if I didnt drive a Cadillac. Frankly, the luxury cars that are revered by those in the 50s and 60s may not be what I want to be driving. I like the looks of the C and the E and to some degree the S, but none of them have the visual appeal of the CTS and none of them convey my youth the way the CTS would. Not that I can afford any of them.

    If Mercedes is the superior car company with the superior legacy of reliability and engineering then the C class should have more power than the CTS, more quality than the CTS, a better interior than the CTS and more features. It comes up short on all counts and Edmunds' long term car has had a malfunctioning sunroof already. I'll take my chances on a CTS with a warranty. I dont plan to keep any car for 200k miles so the chance that the C will get to that mark and the CTS supposedly wont is irrelevant to me.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "You were doing just fine until that statement (well, except saying that Lexus' L-Finesse design is copied from BMW and MB. You need an eye check). "

    Never said that. I honestly cant say where L-finesse came from, but I will say its not pretty and it looks rather juvenile for its price point. Overall Lexus designs are heavily influenced by MB and to a lesser extent BMW designs. Lexus has never been known for styling innovation and I suspect they never will. You wont mistake an STS or CTS for a GErman car.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Since its been on sale the 2008 CTS has outsold the C class, TL, IS, A4 and G35. I would say the car s doing just fine and will continue to do so.

    I think the car will do well also. I still don't understand why a car that's the size of a C ad E is compared to smaller cars (C and 3) and priced right along with those smaller cars. At that price it SHOULD do well.

    While there are many people who wont give the car a chance because its American and they hate American cars and would love to see GM go bankrupt, there are plenty of people who will drive a no excuse car like teh CTS

    I never said they wouldn't. You asked me for reasons why some wouldn't buy the CTS and get the C instead and I gave you some. What's the problem?

    BTW, the CTS isnt too big compared to luxury cars like the E class, and 5 series. Its only big when compared to the compact 3 series and c class.

    I originally compared the car to the C Class. The E & 5 were never part of our original convo. The car is the size of an E and 5, but priced like the 3 and C and compared to them also. I wonder how the CTS would fare if it were PRICED like the E and 5? We'll never know, but my guess would be sales would drop.

    I see nothing admirable about a compact luxury car that costs $40k.

    That's nice. :confuse:

    Cadillac has been getting good reviews on their products since the 2003 CTS came out nearly 6 years ago. This isn't a new phenomenon.

    I'm not so sure about that. The 1st Edmund's review on the CTS had it dead last against the Acura 3.2, Audi A4, BMW 330i, and G35.

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=73569/pageNumber=17

    CAdillacs were criticized in the past for being too soft but they have never hit the quality lows than MB has hit in the last 10-15 years.

    Their parent company had been rumored to go bankrupt due to quality issues in recent years. (Thankfully they haven't.) But if GM went under where would that have put the CTS??? Maybe you can distance Caddy from GM, but many people can't and won't.

    Merc may have had quality issues, but what about IMAGE issues? Caddy is no where near what they were in their hey-day of decades past and their sales plummeted. Even with all the talk of quality lows for Mercedes, people keep buying them. I haven't seen any on the side of the road with the hood up, and I still see plenty 10-20 year old Mercedes being driven in good condition.

    Even with Mercedes' quality problems over the years, the company is still touted as 1 of the top luxury makers in the world by many outside of this Caddy board. ;) The CTS is doing well and I'm glad, but it's only 1 model. They are trying to regain their image of being a top luxury car but as a whole they are still considered behind Merc, Lexus and BMW. The CTS is a good start, but in order to play with the Big Dogs, they need to have a car to rival the S, 7 and LS, a car to rival the SL and Bimmer Roadsters. Hopefully it's coming.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    "General Motors has announced the recall of 276,000 vehicles. The recall is due to a faulty pinion seal, which can cause fluid leaks. The recall affects the 2005-07 Cadillac CTS, CTS-V, SRX, STS and STS-V; 2006-07 Pontiac Solstice; and 2007 Saturn Sky. "


    That's the last thing they need at this crucial point. Hopefully they can get this problem fixed and it'll be the only problem for the CTS.

    I personally think the new CTS is a quantum leap above the prior version in terms of style. Not a fan of the front end, but they've done a nice job of cleaning up a bunch of the superfluous, overdone lines and shapes. And the prior CTS had possibly the worst interior style/materials that I"ve seen on a "Premium" car. The new interior works for me.

    I like it too. I think it looks great! They did a good job with this car IMO.

    Same issue with the XLR. I like it and am considering buying a used one as a toy. But the interior style and material appearance, and more importantly, the much too highg msrp spelled disappointing sales for the XLR from the get-go.

    I like the looks of the car personally. But I think if they price the car lower like they did the CTS it would sell pretty well. I don't think the public is ready to pay big bucks for Caddy as of yet.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    A die hard Caddy Fan! :)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You wont mistake an STS or CTS for a GErman car.

    That's just too bad...
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    I'll respectfully disagree. I believe that there is a fair amount of evidence that GM cars lacked the quality that consumers demanded (and found in the imports). Anecdotal proof: What was GMs market share 30 years ago vs. today. And review Consumers Report and JD Powers... And personally, two GM cars in my family in the '90s: one (Catera) was in the shop more than any several cars combined that my father owned. The Olds I I drove as a company car could have gotten me killed as it had a defective gas tank, it suddenly started profusely leaking gas from the top of the tank, thank heavens I wasn't a smoker and tossed my cigarette out the window! :sick: And, please, Roger Smith... Bean counter extrordinaire. He made 'em cheap and made 'em look/feel cheap...

    Conversely, our history with Acura/Honda, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Toyota/Lexus and even Mercedes Benz has left nary a single quality/reliability tale to tell (although MBs are bloody expensive to maintain/repair). I'm not preaching Japanese perfection here, but our Japanese vs. our GM: night and day.

    Having said all that, I posted that I think the CTS is a nice piece of work. I hope GM turns it around, a lot of good people rely on GM to earn a living. But that recall I (and others have) noted here, to most folks is SNAFU for GM. And that has to stop. :mad:

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    I'll admitt they have a start with the redesigned Escalade and the new CTS. But they need to add more standard features and improve build quality. The Escalade is the king of SUV's but the 08 Infiniti QX and Mercedes GL450 are worthy contenders.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    I'll respectfully disagree. I believe that there is a fair amount of evidence that GM cars lacked the quality that consumers demanded (and found in the imports).

    Very true. This is old news, but GM was well aware of the quality issues they were having:

    http://www.businessweek.com/print/autos/content/sep2006/bw20060906_198888.htm

    SEPTEMBER 7, 2006

    Autos
    By David Kiley

    GM's Big Bet on Quality
    To reverse perceptions about its cars' quality, GM boldly extends its warranty coverage to five years or 100,000 miles

    General Motors (GM ), battling to regain market share amid a financial battering that saw its U.S. auto business lose $10.6 billion last year, today announced an expanded warranty on all its vehicles intended to alleviate, if not remove, doubts that many consumers have about GM's quality being competitive with that of Japanese automakers.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    you have some valid points there.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Since its been on sale the 2008 CTS has outsold the C class, TL, IS, A4 and G35. I would say the car s doing just fine and will continue to do so....Read some of the consumer reviews right here on this site, many owners have traded in European cars.

    Would you be so kind to post a link to back this up?

    I did a little research and this is what I discovered: (sorry about the spacing and layout.)

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/05/01/046236.html

    GM Car Deliveries - (United States)
    April 2007

    Calendar Year-to-Date
    April January - April

    2007 2006 per S/D 2007 2006 %Chg

    CTS 4,644 4,612 9.1 15,410 17,913 -14.0

    DeVille 40 73 -40.6 71 509 -86.1

    DTS 3,707 4,003 0.3 14,654 18,886 -22.4

    Seville 0 0 ---.- 0 9 ---.-

    STS 1,815 2,088 -5.8 6,249 7,713 -19.0

    XLR 168 320 -43.1 633 1,186 -46.6

    Cadillac Total 10,374 11,096 1.3 37,017 46,216 -19.9

    As of April 2007 sales for all Caddy models were down year to date as illustrated by the numbers on the far right.

    Here are Mercedes' numbers for the same time frame:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/05/01/046221.html

    MONTVALE, N.J., May 1, 2007 -- Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) today reported April sales of 20,895 new vehicles; the second best April ever (after April 2006 with sales of 21,270). This represents the best-ever year-to-date sales volume, bringing the total to 76,880 new vehicles for 2007 - a six percent increase over sales during the same period in 2006.

    Model '07 '06 % 2007 2006 Yearly%

    C-CLASS 5,131 4,037 27.1% 17,413 14,017 24.2%

    E-CLASS 4,011 3,778 6.2% 14,458 12,437 16.2%

    S-CLASS 2,067 3,033 -31.8% 8,713 10,651 -18.2%

    SL-CLASS 703 1,112 -36.8% 2,098 2,953 -29.0%

    As of April, the more C Class cars (5,131) were sold than the CTS (4,644.) 2007 YTD CTS sales were DOWN 14% while the C Class sales were UP 24.2%.

    I know this is April sales info, but unfortunately I couldn't find any recent info on Caddy sales. However, I did find this on November Mercedes sales:

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/12/03/072331.html

    Mercedes-Benz Records Best November Sales Ever

    MONTVALE, N.J., Dec. 3 -- Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) achieved its highest November sales volume on record with 22,819 units sold for the month, a 3.4 percent increase over last November's 22,079 record volume. This brings MBUSA's year-to-date sales total to 225,904 units - a 2.8 percent increase over the same period last year - which keeps Mercedes-Benz on track for accomplishing its 14th consecutive year of annual sales growth.

    Sales of the Mercedes-Benz C-Class rose 56 percent (6,920 units vs. 4,435 units) for the month, and 26.3 percent compared to last year's year-to-date results (56,802 vs. 44,990).

    Model Nov. '07 Nov. '06 Monthly % YTD 2007 YTD 2006 Yearly %

    C-CLASS 6,920 4,435 56.0% 56,802 44,990 26.3%

    The CTS is a nice car no doubt, and it was rated higher then the C Class on a review from this very site, but sales numbers don't lie. The C Class is selling more than the CTS and Merc is having ANOTHER record year.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I never said they wouldn't. You asked me for reasons why some wouldn't buy the CTS and get the C instead and I gave you some. What's the problem? "

    I believe someone else asked for those reasons. I wouldnt but the C class so I don't need any reasons why its supposedly superior. The C class isnt superior on any objective level. Not that its not a nice car.

    "The car is the size of an E and 5, but priced like the 3 and C and compared to them also. I wonder how the CTS would fare if it were PRICED like the E and 5? We'll never know, but my guess would be sales would drop. "

    The STS is priced closer to the E and 5 but its still cheaper. BMW and MB are the only two luxury brands that can get away with such outrageous pricing. Infinitis, Audis, Acuras and Lexus models are all "bargain" priced compared to those German brands. Its not like Cadillac is the only one offering more car for less money. I wonder how the G35 would do if it was priced like the 5 series or E class. My guess is sales would drop.

    "I'm not so sure about that. The 1st Edmund's review on the CTS had it dead last against the Acura 3.2, Audi A4, BMW 330i, and G35. "

    Not winning a comparo (on Edmunds of all places) isnt the same as getting bad reviews. The new CTS lost a recent Edmunds comparo and that doesnt mean they didnt like the car. BTW, the last CTS beat 7 other cars in a R&T comparo in 2004. Cadillacs have been getting good reviews in general fo years now, this is not something that just happened overnight. As for edmunds, there arent many domestic vehicles they like and domestics never win comparos in Edmunds so I'm not sure they are the most accurate barometer of how well Cadillac is doing.

    "Their parent company had been rumored to go bankrupt due to quality issues in recent years. "

    the bankruptcy talk was generated by the media, GM never said it was close to declaring bankruptcy. Even if they were, vehicle quality was far from the main reason for Gm's troubles. GM has one of the higher customer loyalty rates in the industry. That would be hard to do if all your vehicles were falling apart.

    "The CTS is doing well and I'm glad, but it's only 1 model. They are trying to regain their image of being a top luxury car but as a whole they are still considered behind Merc, Lexus and BMW. The CTS is a good start, but in order to play with the Big Dogs, they need to have a car to rival the S, 7 and LS, a car to rival the SL and Bimmer Roadsters. Hopefully it's coming. "

    Not sure who considers Cadillac lower than Lexus, but I wouldnt say enthusiasts agree with that. Lexus is near the bottom of the pack in terms of driving enthusiasts but it is very popular amongst aging boomers which is why Lexus is the top selling brand. Ironically, people like you will be quick to point out that Cadillac isnt established around the world but the same thing applies to Lexus. People have been deriding Cadillac for years for not making BMW wannabe sedans and yet Lexus has proven that many luxury customers dont want that.

    As for the SL, the XLR is competition for the SL. It's not a better car, but its a legit contender based on style, performance and price. I wouldnt say the CTS is only one model, the Escalade has been very successful and of course the DTS is still a strong seller. The SRX has been well received by the press but hasnt acheived sales success for some reason. Same for the STS to a lesser extent although the revised 2008 model is doing a little better. As for all of this MB success, Cadillac outsold MB until about 2001 or 2002, MB has only recently hit the big sales numbers we've seen in the US. Even so, they have peaked an BMW and Lexus are ahead of them. Next year with a full year of CTS sales it is very possible that Cadillac will overtake MB in the US.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    I had not seen C class sales data, you are correct about the C. I never said anything about the rest of MB's lineup however. The CTS still outsold the other cars I named. In november sales were up 55% to about 5500 units. MB's lineup continues to expand and its unsurprising that they continue to see record sales here in the US. They have 7 car lines and 3 truck lines and their sales reflect that. Cadillac has no competitor for the SLK, S class, CLK or CLS and that is part of the sales story.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "That's the last thing they need at this crucial point. Hopefully they can get this problem fixed and it'll be the only problem for the CTS. "

    recall mentiones 2007 CTS, not new model. Toyota has had far more recalls than GM recently so I don't think a recall is cause for alarm with regards to GM quality. Everyone is recalling these days.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "That's just too bad... "

    why is that? Lexus has done the German car copy theme for the last 18 years. I see no reason for Cadillac to do the same. If Cadillac went conservative and copied the GErmans people would complain. If Cadillac comes up with their own aggressivem unique style then German car fans are turned off because they feel all luxury cars should look the same. For those that hate GM and the American auto industry there is nothing Cadillac can do to win their favor.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "And personally, two GM cars in my family in the '90s: one (Catera) was in the shop more than any several cars combined that my father owned. "

    the Catera was an import from Germany. Lets not get into anecdotal stories because I can name two long lasting domestic vehicles for each of your horror stories. Naturally I suppose you have NEVER heard of a foreign car with reliability issues. I find this is always the case with people who swear all american cars break down at 50k miles. I dont have to look hard to find accounts of imports that have been less than perfect. BTW, the 90s started nearly 18 years ago- a lot can change in this industry in 18 years. I don't know if I would buy a GM product in 1990, but I would now.

    marketshare? It is simplistic to relate all of GM's marketshare losses to quality. You have to ignore an awful lot of facts to make that claim. In the 80s companies like MB and BMW mainly competed on the high end, especially MB. In 2007 almost every foreign automaker has a full linuep from compacts to pickup trucks. This wasnt the case in the 70s and 80s and part of the 90s. Detroit had a lot of share by default until the competiton entered every single niche in the automarket. On top of that brands like Scion, Hyundai and Kia didnt even exist 20-25 years ago. The marketshare of the leaders is going to decline when new companies enter the marketsplace giving the customer more options.

    GM has far more share in the US than MB has in Europe. If MB and BMW quality is so superior I would love to know why those brands dont command a 20% or 30% share in their home market. competition leads to a fractured market which is what they have in Europe.

    "But that recall I (and others have) noted here, to most folks is SNAFU for GM. And that has to stop. "

    Here is the thing, in spite of GM's stumbles they sell more vehicles than anyone else. They are still ahead of Toyota in the US by more than a million units which is significant considering how much Toyota has grown. I wouldnt say that "most" people believe that GM cant make a quality vehicle. At the end of the day far more people chose not to buy MB, BMW or Honda than chose to not buy a GM product. Toyota has 16% share which means that 84% of Americans dont want a Toyota. I doubt you would say that stat means that most Americans are skeptical about Toyota quality and engineering.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think GM's market share in the 60's (which is when GM's market share was high) was due to two prime factors: 1) they did have better quality than Chrysler; 2) there were very few imports of consequence. I think GM's share was greater because they had 5 divisions to soak up the market share that might have gone to Ford.

    In the period of time around 1980, GM did make a number of blunders that lowered quality. The Catera was a German import though. The reliability of the Mercedes 600 was noexistent - it was/is a total unreliable car, when it is working (for a day or so at a time), it is a wonderful car, but it is worse for repairs than an old Jag.

    When the Japanese started to invade the US market, they knew that the American impression of Japanese products was that of the carnival trinkets. They knew that if they were to be successful they were going to have to have a quality product. GM's management foolishly thought noone could possibly catch up, and it took about two decades (from about 1975 to 1995) for GM to actually decline enough to get serious attention.

    The Ford Pinto fuel tank was probably the worst for endangering peoples lives.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    I disagree with this statement only because it needs to be corrected as I have:

    "For those that hate GM and the American auto industry there is nothing Cadillac can do to win their favor. "

    "For those that hate GM and the American auto industry there is nothing GM can do to win their favor."

    ******************************
    ******************************
    ******************************
    To wit the statements here that GM has had nothing but bad cars for 30 years. Gimme a break. :sick:

    Let's see:
    1977 Cutlasss Supreme Brogham (Tan over dark brown) 350 4-barrel, great car
    1980 Cutlass Supreme Brougham (Black w/ burgundy interior cloth) 260 V8 more economical
    1981 Skylark 4-cyl
    1985 Skyhawk OHC 4-cyl
    1987 Century 4-cyl
    1989 Century 3100 V6
    1993 leSabre 3800 V6
    1998 leSabre 3800 V6 Series II, much different motor for those who say GM used the same motor for 50 years
    2003 leSabre 3800 V6 Series II, will buy another one

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Recall mentiones 2007 CTS, not new model. Toyota has had far more recalls than GM recently so I don't think a recall is cause for alarm with regards to GM quality. Everyone is recalling these days.

    Just because "everyone" is recalling makes it OK for GM to have them also. Kinda reminds me of that old saying; if your friends jump off a bridge would you do it also?

    Recalls for the 2007 model is NOT a good thing. That's the last year of the product cycle and they were still having problems with it? The logic is the 1st year or 2 of the new style has quality issues, and the last year should have all the kinks worked out. There's no excuse for the 2007 model to have any issues.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    A "recall" is bad publicity. However, they did not recall the 2004 models, which suggests that they changed something in 2005. The recall release says that more seals were failing than normal, which means that a certain number were expected to fail. My 2007 SRX is not leaking yet. I expect that it will be recalled.

    I really do not think that this recall proves anything.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    I had not seen C class sales data, you are correct about the C. I never said anything about the rest of MB's lineup however. The CTS still outsold the other cars I named. In november sales were up 55% to about 5500 units. MB's lineup continues to expand and its unsurprising that they continue to see record sales here in the US. They have 7 car lines and 3 truck lines and their sales reflect that. Cadillac has no competitor for the SLK, S class, CLK or CLS and that is part of the sales story.

    Do U have any links to back up your sales claims?

    Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the CTS. I think it's a great looking car. I see the car everywhere here in my area.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    A "recall" is bad publicity.

    That's my point. GM doesn't need anymore bad publicity. Hopefully this won't sway buyers who are on the fence from buying a GM product.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Recalls for the 2007 model is NOT a good thing. That's the last year of the product cycle and they were still having problems with it? The logic is the 1st year or 2 of the new style has quality issues, and the last year should have all the kinks worked out. There's no excuse for the 2007 model to have any issues. "

    Spare me. Most recalls these days are for issues that havent even caused any accidents. You're acting like the recall is for failed brakes. Again, Toyota has recalled more vehicles than GM in recent years but I doubt you would hesitate to purchase a Lexus. Recalls come from nearly every manufacturer in the US market, they are hardly unique to GM nor does GM lead the industry in recalls. Problems are not unique to 1st year vehicles and a quick look at CR's detailed results in their auto issue will comfirm that. Problems may decrease after the first year but they do not disappear. If that were the case all 3rd year vehicles would be 100% reliable across the board and that isnt the case.
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