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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "That's my point. GM doesn't need anymore bad publicity. Hopefully this won't sway buyers who are on the fence from buying a GM product."

    for those who really dont want a GM product any "bad news" will convince them to stay away while similar news from MB or Lexus would barely get their attention. I love it when people say foreign brands can "afford" to have bad quality news because they have such reputations. Bad news is bad news. Toyota has had numerous issues in recent years (some havent yet led to recalls) and yet there is no one calling for consumers to abandon them. I fail to see how its more tolerable for a company like Toyota or Mercedes to have declining quality just because they used to have top notch quality and yet people have so little patience with domestic products even though every reputable source says American quality continues to improve.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Do U have any links to back up your sales claims? "

    Gm's sales data is available to anyone who wants to see it at http://media.gm.com:8221/us/gm/en/news/sales/index.html. Feel free to check it out for yourself. I saw G35 and Tl sales in press releases from their respective manufacturers at the beginning of the month. TL sales are down big time and G35 sales are up, but not exceeding CTS sales. In its best year I believe the CTS sold in excess of 50k units. I would be shocked if that record isnt broken next year.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    This GM recall is in part a result of the failure causing an accident. I would have thought that the driver would have noticed something amiss before the rear axle locked up though.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    The original CTS did sell well, good for Caddy. I would hope the new one would sell as well, probably better as in my eyes it is a big improvement and I'll consider it in my next round of car shopping. I'm a reforming GM-hater... The only reason I disliked GM (besides the personal experience and friend's experience with unacceptable reliability/quality issues ;) ) was my perception of the arrogance that they could keep putting out the same sub-standard cars year after year when I felt that the largest car company in the world certainly had the talent to build a better car. Finally, as of late, it appears that they are...

    Note that the TL (my current ride) for '08 will be in its 5th model year and is to be replaced in '09. So, sales decline is no great surprise.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think GM is doing a good job on making the quality where it should be. However, I think that in terms of materials, the interiors could be better, particularly Cadillacs. The CTS (which I have only seen in pictures) is probably OK. But the higher end models could be better.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "The only reason I disliked GM (besides the personal experience and friend's experience with unacceptable reliability/quality issues ) was my perception of the arrogance that they could keep putting out the same sub-standard cars year after year when I felt that the largest car company in the world certainly had the talent to build a better car. Finally, as of late, it appears that they are... "

    I understand the frustration of anyone who had problems with a particular model but I do find that people have nothing but excuses when their German or Japanese car is less than perfect but have no toleration of any difficulties with a GM product. GM has been turning it around for a while now and with a few exceptions (Aztec) they havent released many total duds in a while. I would say the changes became evident in the late 90s when models like the '98 STS, C5 vette and Olds Intrigue came on the scene. We are seeing more complete vehicles now than ever, but its not like they havent fielded anything competitive in decades.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I think GM is doing a good job on making the quality where it should be. However, I think that in terms of materials, the interiors could be better, particularly Cadillacs. The CTS (which I have only seen in pictures) is probably OK. But the higher end models could be better. "

    The SRX has one of the best interiors in its segment. It shames the M class in pics and in person. The DTS is also very nice. The STS has high quality materials but the center stack is a little dull and features too much plastic. The wood and leather is top notch. Also, if you havent already check out pics of the Escalade Platinum, the interior is first rate with real woodgrain. The XLR is dated and needs some revision and the base Escalade should have real wood on the console but aside from that I think Cadillac interiors are fine.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163

    Spare me. Most recalls these days are for issues that havent even caused any accidents. You're acting like the recall is for failed brakes.


    So are you saying its ok for their new cars to have to go back to the dealer for any type of glitch? I say NO. That's the problem right there. There should be no glitches and no excuses. "oh, it's just a little problem. It won't cause an accident." That's inexcusable when the topic of the thread is can Caddy become "Standard of the World."

    That's why GM sales took a hit and Toyota took so much market share. Too lackluster when it comes to putting out quality cars.

    . Again, Toyota has recalled more vehicles than GM in recent years but I doubt you would hesitate to purchase a Lexus.

    Are we getting personal? What's wrong? You don't know how to debate an issue without going after personal tastes and preferences to get your point across? Come on now. thought you were better than that. Let's not go there. if you really want to know what cars i drive personally, go to my carspace page.

    Now, as far as Toyota recalls, their reputation over the years hs kept them in good standing with car owners. But if it continues I'm sure their reputation will take a hit.

    GM has had negative press for more than a decade? That's the difference. When GM was doing bad, Toyota was doing well.

    Recalls come from nearly every manufacturer in the US market, they are hardly unique to GM nor does GM lead the industry in recalls. Problems are not unique to 1st year vehicles and a quick look at CR's detailed results in their auto issue will comfirm that. Problems may decrease after the first year but they do not disappear. If that were the case all 3rd year vehicles would be 100% reliable across the board and that isnt the case.

    Sounds like excuses. It shouldn't matter if other manufacturers have recalls. The goal should be ZERO RECALLS.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163

    for those who really dont want a GM product any "bad news" will convince them to stay away while similar news from MB or Lexus would barely get their attention. I love it when people say foreign brands can "afford" to have bad quality news because they have such reputations.


    Incorrect assumption. In the 90's, the cheaper Lexus LS stole market share from the Mercedes S Class because the Merc had quality issues and relaibility problems. There were fierce debates between Lexus & Mercedes about which car was better right here on Edmunds.

    Toyota has had numerous issues in recent years (some havent yet led to recalls) and yet there is no one calling for consumers to abandon them.

    Not yet, but I guarantee you if they persist and are not addressed there will be. Reliability is what got Toyota where they are, and reliability might be their downfall.

    I fail to see how its more tolerable for a company like Toyota or Mercedes to have declining quality just because they used to have top notch quality and yet people have so little patience with domestic products even though every reputable source says American quality continues to improve.

    But you said the CTS sales are up YTD. What more do want? :)
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "So are you saying its ok for their new cars to have to go back to the dealer for any type of glitch? I say NO. That's the problem right there. There should be no glitches and no excuses. "oh, it's just a little problem. It won't cause an accident." That's inexcusable when the topic of the thread is can Caddy become "Standard of the World."

    That's why GM sales took a hit and Toyota took so much market share. Too lackluster when it comes to putting out quality cars. "

    Just saying recalls are issued for numerous reasons, not all of them serious. Toyota has been issuing them left and right in the past year or so. GM lost share for MANY reasons. To blame it all on quality is shortsighted. Toyota gained share for many reasons, the primary one being that they have expanded their lineup over the last 50 years and now compete in every single segment in this market. If you compared Toyota's 2007 sakes with its 1987 sales and subtracted all the vehicles that werent available in 1987 their share gains wouldnt be all that impressive. The early leaders in any segment have the most to lose when competition heats up. Same applies to chrysler and minivans. Their share was much higher when they had the market to themselves.

    "Are we getting personal? What's wrong? You don't know how to debate an issue without going after personal tastes and preferences to get your point across? Come on now. thought you were better than that. Let's not go there. if you really want to know what cars i drive personally, go to my carspace page. "

    i'm a little confused as to why you are getting offended. I said nothing "persona", I could have substituted "people" for you. In other words most people wouldnt be skeptical of buying a Lexus in spite of the rash of recent Toyota quality issues but when GM issues a recall its like the end of the world.

    "GM has had negative press for more than a decade? That's the difference. When GM was doing bad, Toyota was doing well. "

    sales numbers totally contradict that argument. 10 years ago GM was making more money and had far more share than they have now. Conversely Toyota had less share a decade ago. GM was doing pretty well before the 2001 recession hit and they started piling on incentives and saw their SUVs fall out of favor due to increased gas prices. GM was doing OK from the mid 90s until the early 2000s. Toyota's share has only recently hit the 16% mark- 10 or 20 years ago when GM quality was supposedly horrible Toyota was nowhere near 16% share.

    "Sounds like excuses. It shouldn't matter if other manufacturers have recalls. The goal should be ZERO RECALLS. "

    Obviously that is every automaker's goal. None have achieved it however, not even Toyota. The recalls today are actually minor compared to what they used to be. The majority of them arent even related to issues that have caused injury or death. Not sure how you can prove that GM doesnt aim for ZERO RECALLS.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >I do find that people have nothing but excuses when their German or Japanese car is less than perfect but have no toleration of any difficulties with a GM product.

    Amen. Good point.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Not yet, but I guarantee you if they persist and are not addressed there will be. Reliability is what got Toyota where they are, and reliability might be their downfall. "

    dont think so. First of all I cant see Toyota letting their quality fall too far before making changes. Furthermore the press is conditioned to make excuses for foreign brands and thus faults that get major negative commentary on domestic vehicles barely get mentioned on foreign vehicles. Toyota has been turning out some of the cheapest looking interiors on the market recently and there has been minimal reaction from the press. Meanwhile GM and Chrysler interiors would be ripped for coming to market with the same designs and materials. Most buyers I know are the same way, they see any problem with a foreign car as an anomaly and would never hesitate to buy another. If a domestic car has a check engine light come on they will be ready to trade it in for a Toyota ASAP. People of a certain age in this country have been conditioned to nearly worship foreign engineering for a long time and they refuse to believe that American cars arent as inferior as they have thought for the last 30+ years. Its incredible how many import loyalists will bash current domestics and then tell you in the next breath that they havent owned a domestic vehicle since the 80s but they are sure quality is the same now as it was then. You cant base a decision about ANYTHING on what happened 25 years ago.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >GM lost share for MANY reasons.

    One big reason was that the econoboxes were, well, economical to operate if you didn't mind a small car with a small motor and minimal accountrements that got great gas mileage compared to small car offerings from the US brands of the time.

    I still recall giving one coworker rides to work when is Rabbit VW didn't hippity-hop to work. But when it ran, he saved a whole bunch of money. That was late 70s or early 80s.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    "I understand the frustration of anyone who had problems with a particular model but I do find that people have nothing but excuses when their German or Japanese car is less than perfect but have no toleration of any difficulties with a GM product."

    Well, the problem for me/family, is that in the last 30 years we've really had no issues with Japanese cars. That said, in my sales days, besides the aforementioned Olds, I had a Mercury Sable and Dodge Intrepid company cars. The Sable was fine as was the Dodge. What was noticeable in both, compared to my personal cars (Nissan, Saab Lexus) was lesser build quality (moreso the Intrepid) & interior materials, floatier rides and noisier. But no reliablity issues that I can really recall. Interestingly, though my company started phasing out domestic co. cars and phasing in Japanese... I liked the Intrepid enough to let me buy a '99 Chrysler 300M with less trepidation, a car I thoroughly enjoyed. Lousy exterior build quality, though. But, it was a Chrysler! ;)

    Still may buy an '06 XLR, if I can get it for less than 50% of msrp. But, that's still in the same $ neighborhood of new BMW 3 converts, among others...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    I agree GM could do better in their Cadillac interiors......the XLR in particular the interior is dissapointing. The gauge cluster looks like it came out of a 1985 Chevrolet Caprice..All in all the Escalade interior is phenominal. I wish though that they did use real wood. I wish they would use the wood steering wheel that is in the SRX and Enclave and not that wood overlay.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    for those who really dont want a GM product any "bad news" will convince them to stay away while similar news from MB or Lexus would barely get their attention. I love it when people say foreign brands can "afford" to have bad quality news because they have such reputations. Bad news is bad news.

    I hear what you are saying, but you will have to admitt that GM / Chrylser / Ford all use SOC engines while the rest of the world uses DOC. The push rod American engines are outdated and barbaric. Granted I would be tempted to buy a QX over an Escalade, GM and American Cars in gerneral have given themselves a stigma due to cutting too many corners. That being said, I do adore the new EScalade.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What? Are you kidding me? No real wood in the $50K+ Escalade?
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    Yep the wood isn't real I have seen reviews where it was told that it was real and I have seen others where they say it is not. I consulted a local dealer and he told me they do not use real wood. The reason being is the sun would cause it to warp and it would not fit properly. He told me that he knows Mercedes uses real wood and that is because people who buy MB have no problem paying what they are asked to pay. Granted if it's fake wood the sun is going to discolor it...most Escalade owners have grages anyway so that would most likely not be an issue depending on where you park when you are away from home.

    I know it sucks I wish the wood was real.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Many people think the real MB wood is fake anyway, so maybe it isn't a huge deal.

    Some cars such as my E55 have the dark or grey wood, some people don't even think it is wood, but marble.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    "Not yet, but I guarantee you if they persist and are not addressed there will be. Reliability is what got Toyota where they are, and reliability might be their downfall. "

    dont think so. First of all I cant see Toyota letting their quality fall too far before making changes.


    I'm glad U said that. That's my point. Why couldn't GM do that? If they did, we wouldn't have this thread, and they wouldn't be playing catch up to all the imports.

    Furthermore the press is conditioned to make excuses for foreign brands and thus faults that get major negative commentary on domestic vehicles barely get mentioned on foreign vehicles.

    That is so not true. If that's the case, the C Class Merc and IS 350 would've fared better than the CTS in reviews. There are countless stories about Mercedes quality problems over the years. Why can't you just accept the fact that GM put out inferior products for years?

    Toyota has been turning out some of the cheapest looking interiors on the market recently and there has been minimal reaction from the press.

    That's because Toyota isn't known for their interior. If a person wants a good looking interior they'd get a Lexus. When did Toyota put quality interiors in their cars anyway????

    Meanwhile GM and Chrysler interiors would be ripped for coming to market with the same designs and materials

    Do U have anything to back up these claims?

    If a domestic car has a check engine light come on they will be ready to trade it in for a Toyota ASAP. People of a certain age in this country have been conditioned to nearly worship foreign engineering for a long time and they refuse to believe that American cars arent as inferior as they have thought for the last 30+ years. Its incredible how many import loyalists will bash current domestics and then tell you in the next breath that they havent owned a domestic vehicle since the 80s but they are sure quality is the same now as it was then. You cant base a decision about ANYTHING on what happened 25 years ago.

    Whose fault is that? If anything those other makers did a great job of building brand loyalty over the years while GM was twiddling their thumbs. That's GM's fault and nobody elses. Why be mad at the consumer? If they want those customer's (and their kids) to come back to GM, they better build 1 helluva product.

  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    It's real, and MB has some of the best interiors in the industry, but others are catching on. GM had done a superb job on the new Escalade. I was shocked when it first came out..
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    :Di'm a little confused as to why you are getting offended. I said nothing "persona", I could have substituted "people" for you. In other words most people wouldnt be skeptical of buying a Lexus in spite of the rash of recent Toyota quality issues but when GM issues a recall its like the end of the world.


    My apologies. Sorry about that! :D

    I see your point, but you want pele to forget the past and they won't. That's why Toyota quality issues haven't hurt them yet. There's a lag time in both cases.
  • trimastertrimaster Member Posts: 163
    Just saying recalls are issued for numerous reasons, not all of them serious. Toyota has been issuing them left and right in the past year or so. GM lost share for MANY reasons. To blame it all on quality is shortsighted. Toyota gained share for many reasons, the primary one being that they have expanded their lineup over the last 50 years and now compete in every single segment in this market. If you compared Toyota's 2007 sakes with its 1987 sales and subtracted all the vehicles that werent available in 1987 their share gains wouldnt be all that impressive. The early leaders in any segment have the most to lose when competition heats up. Same applies to chrysler and minivans. Their share was much higher when they had the market to themselves.

    It's almost as if you're mking excuses for GM. So are you saying that they couldn't have doe anything to prevent Toyota from as GM helpless and did everything they could to prevent them from being in the situation they are in?
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    In the last year or so I'm developing faith in GM with products such as the new Escalade, CTS, Pontiac with their hardtop convertible, and Buick with the new Enclave. They are putting out vehicles that people want, they have extended the warranty coverage and are starting to stand behind their vehicles.

    I know the Esclade lacks some basic standard features that MB and Infiniti deam standard but GM is coming around. That being said I know some people have had issues with the new Esclade from vibrating mirrors to transmission failures to engine hesitations. Not all the Esclades do this, this is definately a quality issue, but that being said we have to sometimes resist the temptation of purchasing a vehicle (brand new or redesign) when it first comes out.

    It's good to let a model year or two go by just so manufacturers can get the bugs out. As far as the driver mirror on the Escalade that vibrates, I read the review on JD power.com that said that they noticed upon testing the vehicle that at speeds of 50 mph or more their was an annoying whistling sound coming from the driver mirror. The second Escalade they drove did not exhibit this..

    Long term tests that I've read on other sites list the engine as the most powerful in it's class and say that it is of great quality and endurance. With active valve timing as a first on a pushrod engine. GM has seem to hit a homerun.

    At this point we can only sit back and watch and hope and pray that GM continues to put out the vehicles that we want and that they produce the quality that meets or exceeds it's competitors.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "The Sable was fine as was the Dodge. What was noticeable in both, compared to my personal cars (Nissan, Saab Lexus) was lesser build quality (moreso the Intrepid) & interior materials, floatier rides and noisier. But no reliablity issues that I can really recall. "

    To be honest I think the perceived quality of 10 year old domestics is worse than their actual quality. Materials, and to some extent build quality, lagged the imports 10-15 years ago as did refinement. Those days are over now. A quick drive of a current domestic car and a look at the dB measurements at idle and at 70mph show that refinement has come a long way. As for build quality and plastics, todays domestics (except some Chryslers) are on par with anything Toyota and Nissan are putting out. In fact I find GM's interiors to be better than those two Asian companies generally speaking. No one who defends Toyota should have any critical words about GM's recent interiors. The Tundra, Camry, Rav4 and Scion models are full of hard plastics.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "At this point we can only sit back and watch and hope and pray that GM continues to put out the vehicles that we want and that they produce the quality that meets or exceeds it's competitors. "

    I dont think you have to worry about anything. GM has totally changed the way it designs vehicles and is now pulling resources from Europe, Asia and Australia to get the best vehicles possible. No longer will people have to ask why GM's best vehicles are only sold overseas. And the best part is GM is doing all this while making no money in the US market. If that ever changes you can expect them to take things to another level.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I agree GM could do better in their Cadillac interiors......the XLR in particular the interior is dissapointing. "

    The XLR needs to be updated as does the STS to some degree. I like the CTS, DTS, Escalade and SRX interiors. They are very competitive with anything from MB or Lexus. The 2007 refresh of the SRX interior took it from worst in class to one of the best.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I hear what you are saying, but you will have to admitt that GM / Chrylser / Ford all use SOC engines while the rest of the world uses DOC. The push rod American engines are outdated and barbaric."

    First of all Ford uses SOHC and DOHC engines. GM doesnt make one single SOHC engine. SOHC and pushrod are not the same thing. The 6.2L engine in the Escalade is extremely powerful and outpowers the 5.5l DOHC V8 from Mercedes. It is state of the art with all aluminum construction and VVT. MB just started using VVT about two years ago for the record. Chrysler uses all OHC engines except for the HEMI and their lower end minivan engine. The HEMI is low tech compared to some of GM's pushrod engines but its very effective and refined for the price. Today's OHV engines are anything but archaic and if you review the tech specs you will see that. It should also be noted that the SRX, CTS, STS and XLR use DOHC engines. The only Caddies that do not are the CTS-V and Escalade. The new CTS-V is likely to produce in excess of 500hp from its "low tech" supercharged 6.2L V8 which is enough to leave the C63 and IS-F in the dust.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "I'm glad U said that. That's my point. Why couldn't GM do that? If they did, we wouldn't have this thread, and they wouldn't be playing catch up to all the imports."

    Gm marketshare loss was inevitable. This is a fact whether you chose to accept it or not. GM had 50% share because of lack of competition and the desirability of their vehicles. GM has better quality than ever but their share is lower than ever before so your argument that high share is ONLY related to quality doesnt make sense to me. Toyota is supposedly the highest quality manufacturer in the business and they only have 16% US marketshare. Why is that? Should they be exceeding GM's 1970 share? Of course not because the market is too competitive and NO ONE will EVER have the share GM had in the 1960s. Again, just look at Europe for example. Toyota has about 45% share in Japan due to lack of foreign competition.

    "That's because Toyota isn't known for their interior. If a person wants a good looking interior they'd get a Lexus. When did Toyota put quality interiors in their cars anyway???? "

    My point was that if american cars are going to be heavily criticized for cheap interiors then the same should happen to Toyota. For the most part it does not because the media is in love with Toyota, especially in the post Prius era. characteristics that get american cars blasted by the press barely get mentioned in reviews of Toyotas. Edmunds did a review of the new Sequoia and made nary a comment about its abominable interior that is the worst in class. Its a disgrace and would not be tolerated if it was in a Chrysler or Chevy.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Many people think the real MB wood is fake anyway, so maybe it isn't a huge deal.

    Some cars such as my E55 have the dark or grey wood, some people don't even think it is wood, but marble. "

    I agree 100%, the wood in the M class looks very fake to me. I find Lexus and Cadillac real wood to be more authentic than the wood used in MB models.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "It's almost as if you're mking excuses for GM. So are you saying that they couldn't have doe anything to prevent Toyota from as GM helpless and did everything they could to prevent them from being in the situation they are in? "

    I said nothing of the kind. I didnt know GM bashing was a prerequisite for this forum so I'm not sure why I am being attacked for "making excuses" for GM. I am merely acknowledging facts that many anti GM people chose to ignore. GM could have done a better job adopting the quality initiatives pioneered by the Japanese. They could have done more to stem the marketshare losses. They could have made better small cars in the 80s and 90s. Happy now? That said, marketshare losses could not be averted and to suggest otherwise ignores the competitiveness of this market. If Toyota had 50% share in 1970 and then was faced with several major offshore competitors invading its market it too would have lost share. Have you not noticed the growth of Toyota and Nissan's lineups in the last 20 years? Have you not noticed new players like Hyundai and Kia and Mini? Have you not noticed that BMW and MB have expanded into the SUV market and the lower end sub $30k market? All of the foreign players have expanded their lineups and dealership bases in the last 20 years and now most of them compete in almost every segment. Toyota just built a $1B factory to build 200k Tundras a year. In the long run that is likely to lead to lower share for GM and Ford. Thats the way the business works. Going forward we will likely see Toyota start to lose share as Hyundai and Nissan step up their efforts in the US market and go after Toyota customers. The hybrid segment is a great example. How much to you want to bet that Toyota's share of the hybrid market will be FAR lower in 2017 than it is in 2007? Toyota dominates due to lack of competiiton. Even if every Toyota hybrid is totally perfect from a reliability standpoint Toyota will lose share as GM, Ford and Honda launch hybrids over the next 5 years.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Overhead cam engines come in the single and double types, where the double overhead cam pushes directly on the valve stem. The single overhead cam needs a rocker arm to push on the valve stem, as does the pushrod engine. The pushrod pushes the rocker arm and the cam (which is in the block) pushes the pushrod.

    All of these engines have over head valves. If you want to consider a "barbaric" engine design, consider the L-head, where the in the block cam did push on the valve stem, but the design limited the compression ratio (and therefore the power output).

    The basic limitation of the pushrod design seems to be that only 2 valves per cylinder are the common design, where the overhead cam design (particularly double OHC) uses 4 valves per cylinder. There are variations in the number of valves, but either two (pushrod) or four (dohc) is most common.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    The two major issues with pushrod engines is that they tend to have lower redlines and they cannot generate the same specific output as OHC engines. In trucks this isnt a big deal since most large V8 truck engines are relatively low revving and thus the 6.2L V8 in the Escalade (and the other vortec V8s) are perfectly acceptable solutions. Interestingly enough the GM truck V8s rev higher than several competing OHC designs. Its difficult to match the hp/l of a DOHC engine with a pushrod engine with 2 valves/cylinder but the gap is smaller now that it ever was before, especially when it comes to large V8s. Toyota's 5.7L makes 381hp and GM's 6L makes 367hp which is VERY close considering the Toyota V8 has 32 valves vs 16 for the GM V8.
  • onlygmmattersonlygmmatters Member Posts: 19
    Just wanted to pop in here and clarify things:

    Cadillac is and always will be the "Standard" that all others will strive to become. I don't know why it's even questioned :confuse:

    Take for example the Escalade. There is nobody, not Mercedes, not BMW, not Audi/Lexus/Acura/Volvo who could design a more beautiful or powerful SUV like GM can. The Escalade is the Standard when you think of Luxury SUV's just like the Cadillac DTS and CTS are the best in their respective classes. The others just don't have the engineering prowess or the design engineering talent to build such a winning vehicle like GM can.

    All the naysayers have no clue what they are talking about and are just bashing Cadillac just to hear themselves talk. There just jealous of Cadillacs success and future successes.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Take for example the Escalade. There is nobody, not Mercedes, not BMW, not Audi/Lexus/Acura/Volvo who could design a more beautiful or powerful SUV like GM can.

    Didn't the Escalade basically start out as a Chevy Tahoe? Chevy not in same league as Merc, BMW, Audi, Acura.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Cadillac is and always will be the "Standard" that all others will strive to become. I don't know why it's even questioned :confuse:

    A quick refresher:

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    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1970-1979-cadillac7.htm

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    http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/663755

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    image

    Cadillac hasn't built a world-class car in my lifetime, though the 2008 CTS is within striking distance.
  • onlygmmattersonlygmmatters Member Posts: 19
    Your right it's not. Because Merc. BMW, Audi or Acura couldn't design or build a Tahoe either. GM rules when it comes to trucks. Just like Cadillac rules when it comes to being "The Standard of the World"
  • onlygmmattersonlygmmatters Member Posts: 19
    I see nothing wrong with any of those. I'm sure if you went back in time to when ANY of those cars were on the market you would find that Cadillac was just as good if not better than the competition.

    They had more style, were probably better built, had more horsepower and way more luxury than anything on the market.

    The CTS is beyond striking distance, it has clearly made the others look like econoboxes. The first CTS was within striking distance.

    Then it went on sale and hasn't looked back. :shades:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    :surprise:

    There is an automotive industry outside of the Ren Center, ya know.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    "All the naysayers have no clue what they are talking about and are just bashing Cadillac just to hear themselves talk. There just jealous of Cadillacs success and future successes"

    Does that include the naysayers who had such bad experiences with GM products that they had plenty of time to hear themselves talk whilst waiting for the Caddy to be repaired. Again. And again... :sick:

    It does appear that GM/Caddy is righting the ship, though. But, please, let's not rewrite history. The Cavalier, I mean Cimarron, was only memorable for one reason...

    Now, was your first post serious? Or just to keep this discussion heated...?

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • onlygmmattersonlygmmatters Member Posts: 19
    Does that include the naysayers who had such bad experiences with GM products that had plenty of time to hear themselves talk whist waiting for the Caddy to be repaired.

    Must've been you because nobody in my family has ever had a bad experience with a GM product, much less a Cadillac :blush: And I highly doubt we were the only family to ever have great luck with our GMs.

    Are you serious or just making stuff up? :confuse:

    Maybe you meant Toyota? Cause that I CAN believe.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The Escalade is the Standard when you think of Luxury SUV's just like the Cadillac DTS and CTS are the best in their respective classes.

    Boy, this is getting better and better...

    :sick:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Now, was your first post serious? Or just to keep this discussion heated...?

    I am pretty sure he's serious (in his own way).

    Apparently rockylee's cousin has arrived...
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    GM builds a lot of cars. I'm sure some percentage of them spend more time on the road than in the service bay... Well, probably... :blush:

    Just kidding folks. There's a new Malibu in my parking lot at work, looks nice. I'll keep an eye on it, see if there's anything leaking or any pieces falling off...! :P

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Take for example the Escalade. There is nobody, not Mercedes, not BMW, not Audi/Lexus/Acura/Volvo who could design a more beautiful or powerful SUV like GM can. The Escalade is the Standard when you think of Luxury SUV's

    Maybe when "you" think of "beauty", the Escalade pops in your head. But I suspect not everyone here is a pimp or bling crazed. There is hardly an SUV out there that I wouldn't rather be seen in than an Escalade.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "Didn't the Escalade basically start out as a Chevy Tahoe? Chevy not in same league as Merc, BMW, Audi, Acura. "

    The MDX started as a Pilot/Odyssey. The RX started as a Highlander. The QX56 started as an Armada, etc. Parts sharing is common. The Escalade has a totally unique interior, HIDs, 9" nav screen, 22" wheels and a better powertrain than the Tahoe. They are not the same vehicle.
  • mrsyjmrsyj Member Posts: 77
    "It does appear that GM/Caddy is righting the ship, though. But, please, let's not rewrite history. The Cavalier, I mean Cimarron, was only memorable for one reason... "

    I find it interesting how GM bashers continue to talk about the Cimarron even though it was in production about 25 years ago. How is that vehicle relevant today? People feel a 25 year old Cadillac mistake is reason not to buy a current Cadillac but dont feel MB or Audi's recent quality issues are enough reason to be skeptical about those brands. Do we have any poor quality Cadillac stories more recent than the Cimarron? I think I was a toddler when that car was out, its time to move on.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The ugly new LX570 isnt going to make a dent in Escalde sales, especially at $73k.

    No it's not going to because the LX570 is totally in a different category/time zone/universe than the bling-bling 'Slade.

    When the day comes that I link "beauty" with "Escalade" I hope someone could put a bullet in my head to end my misery...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Why don't you try to compare 80s Caddy with 80s MB and BMW? Then try 90s Caddy with 90s BMW, MB and Lexus...

    Apples to apples here please.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Hmmm. If style over substance floats your boat, then yes, Cadillac has plenty of pimpadelic g-crunk for you. :sick:
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