Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

lemko · December 2006

...or "moron image."

My girlfriend's sister and brother-in-law live in an upscale area of Connecticut and send their kids to private schools. They are, at best, ordinary middle class people, but feel they are entitled to live among the wealthy. They have a beautiful house they cannot afford. I got a Xmas letter from her sister and it says they have actually taken out a home equity loan to pay their mortgage. Huh? If I understand the letter properly, they are "robbing Peter to pay Paul." They came over to my place this past summer. My girlfriend's sister's husband pulls up in front of my modest place and parks his shiny new Bimmer behind my old Park Avenue. He looks like Mr. GQ as I greet him looking like I've been hit by a garbage truck. Somebody who didn't know any better would think it was I who had the messed-up finances and he had it all together. BZZZZT!!! WRONG!

chevy598 · December 2006

The answer is NO. GM can't do it. Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and even Infiniti (in the G35/M35/45 segments) have too much of a lead.
Doesn't Cadillac outsell everbody but Lexus?

sls002 · December 2006

Cadillac already has the trophy making them "standard of the world", so yes, been there, done that.... :P

The point is, just what is the meaning of "Standard of the World"? And who is the current "Standard of the World", and why?

I contend that no car company is the "Standard of the World", and probably no car will ever be "The Standard of the World" again. There is presently too much competition. Perhaps, if Toyota becomes the #1 car maker, with only Honda left in 2nd place with all other manufacturer bankrupt, perhaps Lexus would be the standard.

fintail · December 2006

This has nothing to do with sales.

None of the competition have a rental fleet darling, either...

sls002 · December 2006

Exactly, selling more is not equivalant to being best. I think that this is where both Cadillac and GM have made a mistake. By trying to remain as the top selling company, they have become second rate in quality.

chevy598 · December 2006

I'll match Cadillacs quality to any of the Germans any day. In the quality department Cadillac is light years ahead of Mercedes and BMW. The lansing plant that builds the cts, sts, and srx is the second best plant in the world for quality. Lexus of Japan is the only plant ahead of Lansing.

grbeck · December 2006

pch101: Absolutely right. I read these "Hyundais are just as good as Porsche" type comments and just have to shake my head.There is a substantive difference in these types of cars, as you've noted.

Cadillac lost its way when it failed to back up the image with substance...by 1973, a Caprice or Ninety-Eight offered everything a DeVille did, at a lower price.

Saying that the appeal of luxury cars is based solely on image is mistaken. It may take a few years, but buyers will ultimately discover which marques really do offer something "special," and which ones are gussied-up versions of something else, or are no better than lower-priced vehicles.

sls002 · December 2006

Where the sigma platform cars fall short is the interior material quality: the leather is not quite as good as what the Germans use, the plastics are not quite as good. I base my comments on what I have read in the magazine comparison test. I assume that the editors of the magazines can see differences.

I actually like Cadillac, and I am plotting to get a program SRX. However, they seem in very short supply as my dealer has not been able to find what I would like. There are a few available at distant dealerships though...

grbeck · December 2006

Vehicles do not give anyone class...behavior does that.

The choice of vehicle can show likes, preferences, approaches to driving (pure transportation or driving for fun) and knowledge about cars. It can also reflect financial success - or at least, aspiration to a certain level of financial success. Whether that level has actually been achieved is another question entirely.

The discussion about the Escalade is interesting, because around here luxury SUVs - particularly the Escalade - tend to popular in neighborhoods that could not be described as well-to-do, or even prosperous.

I will say, however, that those who "don't care about what others think" tend to be interesting for about three minutes, and then quickly reveal themselves to be either rude or boorish, whether they are driving a Yugo or not.

sls002 · December 2006

Cadillac first offered the "Automatic Climate Control" system. However, this was available on Chevrolets in the mid-sixties. I would say by 1963, nearly everything that you could get on a Cadillac was available on the Chevrolet. I do think that Cadillac's did offer a somewhat nicer interior in terms of material quality. The Impala was basically a nicer interior compared to the Biscayne...

grbeck · December 2006

The 2007 SRX has a considerably improved interior.

The interiors of the 2007 models at the local dealer look MUCH better than the interiors of the 2006 models still on the lot.

grbeck · December 2006

But through the 1960s, Cadillacs were still better built than comparable Chevrolets.

There have been original condition full-size Chevrolets and Cadillacs from the 1960s at both the Hershey and Carlisle shows, and the difference in workmanship is readily apparent.

sls002 · December 2006

I have not looked at one as yet, although my dealer does have one in stock now. What I like about the program 2006 SRX's at some dealerships is the price tag, about $20,000 below list price, or more than $15,000 below.

It might make more sense to wait for the 2007 program SRX's to become available. The basic issue is do I want the six speed automatic more than the CD changer. The 2007's dropped the CD changer.

sls002 · December 2006

And I guess you are saying by the 70's this is no longer the case. Certainly the Cimarron was not better than the Cavaliers that were built on the same assembly line. When GM's divisions (Chevy, ..., Cadillac) were no longer in control of their assembly plants, quality control probably became generic.

fintail · December 2006

Quality or reliability?

That's another issue where confusion reigns supreme.

sls002 · December 2006

In terms of quality, there is build quality, engineering quality, and finally, material quality.

chevy598 · December 2006

Quality between Cadillac & Germans.
Build quality: advantage Cadillac
material quality: advantage Germans
Engineering quality: slight edge Germans

Toyota & Gm set up a joint venture at NUMMI assembly plant in California back in the early 80's. Gm spent the next ten years just watching and learning how Toyota does it. The two new GM assembly plants in Lansing our identical to Toyotas system both in quality and productivity.

fintail · December 2006

I'd give Caddy an edge in electonic engineering, because the Germans are needlessly complex and have historically beta tested their stuff on consumers. An early 2000s S-class is an automotive version of Russian roulette, for example.

Build quality?

lemko · December 2006

My brother-in-law should know. He has a 2000 S430 that has more bugs than a beta version of a Microsoft product. In his case, it's Russian roulette with five bullets in the revolver.

grbeck · December 2006

I'd have to give Mercedes a definite edge in build quality, although Cadillac has made huge strides in this area over the past 15 years.

fintail · December 2006

If not 6.

That's the worst year of a bad series of cars. I wouldn't touch one without a very good warranty. If the comand and airmatic hasn't failed yet, it's likely going to soon. And of course, the countless little other electronic glitches. But when the car is 100%, it's excellent.

nvbanker · December 2006

Where the sigma platform cars fall short is the interior material quality: the leather is not quite as good as what the Germans use, the plastics are not quite as good. I base my comments on what I have read in the magazine comparison test. I assume that the editors of the magazines can see differences.

I think you're exactly righ, sls - it's the interiors that turn me off from the Sigma cars. However, the DTS still offers the luxury I like in a car, soft leather, cushy seats and plush ride, (or is it plush seats and cushy ride) and room. They feel comfy to drive. However, I hate FWD and torque steer - still, the DTS is just a nice driving car. The Sigma cars 'perform' better, but I don't do the slolum all that much anymore.

chevy598 · December 2006

The Germans need to put every bit of electronics they can in their auto's to justify the luxury price. You can get a Camry with Navigation, and Blue tooth for $30k. Most people don't need a car with adaptive cruise or the ability to park itself. Sad thing is I think Lexus is doing the same thing to be different from Toyota.
I've meet a couple people with adaptive cruise and have never heard a good word about it. Yet the car companies keep putting useless technology that is eventually going to break. If it's not on the car it can't break.

imidazol97 · December 2006

>Lexus is doing the same thing to be different from Toyota.

But a Lexus is a Toyota. They can try to change the image as something special but most people know... it is a Toyota.

chevy598 · December 2006

People think its a better Toyota.

fintail · December 2006

I suspect Joe and Joanne Sixpack have no clue Lexus is Toyota, or that Acura is Honda or Infiniti is Nissan for that matter. The distanced marketing approaches of those brands have been pretty fantastic, and the average consumer seems to know nothing above what is shouted at them.

nvbanker · December 2006

I suspect Joe and Joanne Sixpack have no clue Lexus is Toyota, or that Acura is Honda or Infiniti is Nissan for that matter.

It's not so much the marketing that have distanced them, it's the mentality of the public - most of whom, don't even know that Lincoln is a Ford, or Cadillac is a GM either - they don't care, they don't catalogue the differences. Also, Joe Lunchbucket drives a Dodge Truck, you know, with a 5 speed and a six cylinder motor, but all raised up and the smaller he is, the taller the truck..... He has no interest, or money for, a Cadillac.

chevy598 · December 2006

Fintails right about the Japanese distancing themselves from their luxury brands. I just had a someone ask me who makes Acura when a commercial for one during a football game came on. I think more people know who makes Lexus then the other Japanese luxury cars.
Cadillac is doing fine. They still hold the same market share as in 2001, and thats all you can ask for out of a brand. That means the Germans & Japanese have not took one sale from Cadillac. Someone bought 54,000 Escalades so far this year.

imidazol97 · December 2006

I have to agree with your point too. Many people don't pay attention; cars are appliances (or trucks).

And did the Scion get connected to Toyota in people's minds for the halo effect of most people's perception of the brand by advertising or is it considered a separate company that just came out of nowhere?

chevy598 · December 2006

Scion was a intentionally linked to Toyota. Toyota was a huge player with a good rep when Scion was introduced. Back when Lexus came out Toyota had a lot to prove in the Luxury market.

merc1 · December 2006

Doesn't Cadillac outsell everbody but Lexus?

Heck no. The top luxury car sellers are Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and then Cadillac.

Being standard of the world has nothing to do sales either. Sales don't = best.

M

merc1 · December 2006

I'll go with that. There probably isn't one standard of the world in everything, but Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are a lot closer to being such than Cadillac is. Cadillac isn't even close. They have no segment leaders, they don't lead in quality, performance, safety, reliability, build quality, sales, or anything.

M

fintail · December 2006

Yeah, that's true. Wasn't GM going to start putting "GM" badges on their cars so people would know their origins? I don't know if that's such a bright idea.

fintail · December 2006

Most Scion dealers are connected to Toyota dealers, right? The ones I have seen have been on the same premisis. So I am sure Toyota wants that halo effect.

nvbanker · December 2006

Wasn't GM going to start putting "GM" badges on their cars so people would know their origins? I don't know if that's such a bright idea.

Matter of fact, they now do exacxtly that. I thought it was stupid when they announced it, and don't think it has bought them any positive recognition at all. But I understand Waggoner's idea - he's assigning value to the GM brand in an effort to get people to buy a GM, not a Pontiac or a Buick - which means he's thinking of consolidating brands. Hell of an idea in my opinion - I think he should consolidate all of them into 5 max. Three would be better.

Cadillac, including Corvette.
Chevrolet, including trucks.
Saturn
Hummer
SAAB

NOTHING just rebadged anymore.....unique sheet metal and interiors for all.

Delete the dumb "[professional grade]" GMC line. Nobody likes the looks of them anyway.

Consolidate Pontiac and Buick into Saturn.

On the topic of "standard of the world", I think Mercedes wrested that from Cadillac somewhere in the 80's, with the W-140. While Cadillac was rebadging Oldsmobuicks, Mercedes made an awesome luxury car, not just a well functioning but noisy and spartan car any longer. But with performance beyond anything Cadillac had. I think they still have the trophy, and the contenders are now BMW and Lexus. Cadillac has sure improved, and kudos to them for that but I doubt they'll ever catch up now. It's not just their fault either, while Cadillac was going to hell, Mercedes was working feverishly to improve, as they continue to do now. They're not standing still, so Cadillac has to keep running - can't catch up now unless Mercedes quits.

fintail · December 2006

I don't disagree. If only it was so easy.

It'll be tough assigning GM its own identity with a little badge on the flank of a car. Those who care already know, and those who don't care will never bother. A TV and print campaign would be more effective. People need to care about the brands before they will care about relating them to one another.

MB has had some serious issues, but I get a more legitimate sense of wanting to right the ship than I did from Caddy until the past couple years. A 5-7 year bad spell won't kill them.

nvbanker · December 2006

I'd have to give Mercedes a definite edge in build quality, although Cadillac has made huge strides in this area over the past 15 years.

I don't know if I'd give Mercedes an edge in build quality as much as I would in engineering. The S-Class is the best performing car I've driven. I think design is superior, and engineering is superior. But Build quality, that goes to Lexus. And Cadillac may even be a little better. They're all good, but MB still has their glitches....

rockylee · December 2006

to not know a Cadillac is a GM product IMHO, right ?

Rocky

P.S. I also think the GM emblem idea is a good one.

nvbanker · December 2006

You'd have to be an idiot...... by rockylee Dec 19, 2006 (7:20 pm)
to not know a Cadillac is a GM product IMHO, right ?

Yes, I agree - but believe it or not, I know some girls who don't know.... They're fairly young, of course...

rockylee · December 2006

Okay, I'm sure there is a few......perhaps living in Michigan, for so many of my years makes me gullible ?

Rocky

P.S.

NV, I grabbed this pic from the 08' CTS forum.....

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/gallery/data/530/2008CadillacCTS.jpg

fintail · December 2006

That's a big grille.

I'm very interested to see this new car, both inside and out.

chevy598 · December 2006

There probably isn't one standard of the world in everything, but Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are a lot closer to being such than Cadillac is.
As far as build quality, Mercedes & BMW both suck!!! Look at initial quality rankings for 2006.
They finished 26 & 28 in the JD Power rankings. Lexus & Cadillac were 2 & 7. A Saturn or Kia has less problems per car.
Lexus: .93 problems per vehicle
Cadillac: 1.17 problems per vehicle
Average: 1.24 problems per vehicle
Mercedes: 1.39 problems per vehicle
BMW: 1.42 problems per vehicle
They start to add up when you multiply by 200,000. For every 200k BMW & Cadillac's sold, the BMW's got 50,000 more service repairs.

snakeweasel · December 2006

Just remember that JD powers doesn't quantify those problems. Suppose off those problems BMW's have are very minor and the problems Lexus (Lexi?) have are all major?

fintail · December 2006

Lots of people aren't won over by JDP and their oftentimes arbitrary methodology.

"As far as build quality, Mercedes & BMW both suck!!!"

You can't be serious.

"Problems per vehicle" has no definite relation to "build quality".

snakeweasel · December 2006

You can't be serious.

I think he is, their quality has suffered in recent years. One of the reasons we passed on a reasonably good deal om a MB a while back.

chevy598 · December 2006

I know those numbers aren't a perfect measure of vehicle Quality, but if you multiply by per 200,000 cars you get a general idea about a cars quality.
These numbers aren't new.
The Germans have lagged for years in overall quality.

merc1 · December 2006

Apparently you don't know the difference between build quality and reliability. This is what happens when one depends on surveys to convey to them what a simple hands on examination of a car could tell them. That survey has squat to do with build quality.

Again, Cadillac doesn't lead or standout in anything, your post only shows that they have better reliability per the surveys than the German brands. Lexus beats them all, making them a leader in at least one aspect, Cadillac doesn't lead in anything.

M

chevy598 · December 2006

Thats a heavy anti Cadillac slant.
Would you rather be ranked 7th, 26th, or 28th?
Build quality + Engineering quality = Reliability
Build quality is how often a nut or bolt isn't tightened down.

merc1 · December 2006

But Build quality, that goes to Lexus. And Cadillac may even be a little better.

Please explain? Sure in the past years Lexus yes, but a CLS, SL, CL or S are built as good as any Lexus or better. Cadillac doesn't even compare to MB or Lexus in build quality.

Audi is usually seen as the industry standard though, not Lexus.

M

merc1 · December 2006

Build quality + Engineering quality = Reliability

= misinformed at best.

Audis have for years been considered the best built cars in the industry, physical build quality, but their reliability has been horrible for an equal amount of years.

If you can't see that then you simply don't know the difference between physical build quality and reliability, they aren't the same thing and one doesn't always indicate how the other will be.

I'm still waiting on someone here to tell me what Cadillac leads in or what they do better than anyone else. They need something in order to start even thinking about trying to be the "standard of the world" again.

M

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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