Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

1…8081838586…121

Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Agree 62' but I had to respond to the attacks. ;)

    What's this new killed DOHC V8 you are talking about ??? :surprise: I hope you aren't talking about the new ULTRA :cry:

    -Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    So on that Saturday afternoon, when you go out with an itch to buy an entry level luxury sedan, stop by all the dealerships including the Cadillac dealer with an open mind. And then buy the car you like the best.

    That's about the best "open minded" suggestion I've read in this forum.

    Seems we are all guilty of playing "Crossfire". GM protagonists on one side, antagonists on the other, throwing Molitav cocktails at each other. I rather like the idea of starting fresh, so to speak, with test drives of ALL of the cars in the segment being considered and at least attempting to leave the biases at home or in the past.

    P.S. In your own assessment of the CTS's size advantage, how do you reconcile that, according to the specifications I've seen, the rear seat shoulder and hip room of the CTS is actually smaller than the 3 series and way smaller than the 5 series/ E class?. Haven't sat in one myself, but when I was shopping back in 2004, although leg room is obviously important, the width of the rear seat was at least as important to our family requirements. At that time, the TL worked, but the 3 series was a little tight. The CTS interior width dimension appears to be among the smallest of its competition.

    P.P.S. I happen to know a 60 something 6'+ guy who could practically afford to buy Aston Martin (the entire company, not just the car) and he still prefers the sportiness and smaller size of the 3 series to the 5 series. Just traded his older M3 for a 335i. His wife drives a big 760i, but he still reminisces about his old BMW 2002 tii.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I hope you aren't talking about the new ULTRA

    Unfortunately yes. When I heard this I screamed at the person who told me. Not that it was their decision. BUT in looking at it and all the other stuff that is going on I can see why. I just do not like it.

    First the possible usage of the engine was very small volume. Pretty much Cadillac only and in only a possible 3 models:CTS, STS, XLR. Oh and maybe a midsize SUV. Maybe a Buick. And GM is looking foward to another weak sales year in a really down market. Much fewer car sales to compete for. They need the development cash to bring in new vehicles.

    2nd the new CAFE rules. In 2007 Mercedes got the highest fine ever for not meeting CAFE requirements TODAY. BMW and VW also got fines. A V8 today would drag down an already hard to meet corporate car requirement. The competition will have to also make some hard choices in the next few years. Wonder why the greenies are not screaming about Mercedes/BMW gas guzzlers? Perhaps because those are the rides of the rich greenies???

    3rd, and correct me if i am wrong, fast gas V8's are not popular in Europe where Diesels prevail. So the market is pretty much US only.

    4th. the 3.6 V6 brings in over 300 hp w/o forced induction. With the new CAFE requirements we will see downsizing, not up sizing of engines to meet 35 mpg industry average.

    So, I still feel they should have done the V8 for prestige reasons but I would bet they are in the midst of developing large diesels for both the Europe and US markets. Also a forced induction DOHC V6 could hit 400 hp. for the top line vehicles but I would bet they would aim for 350 hp with a lower displacement V6.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    That's a well-written post. At first I wondered if it were going to be another of the same old, but it's thoughtful and even-handed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    I think Cadillac will just use the 6.2L from the Corvette or even the proposed 6.2L OHC engine debuting in 2011 for its high performance models. With the DTS dying in a few years, there just won't be enough volume for Cadillac to have its own V8. The primary engine for the DTS/STS replacement will probably be the 3.6L DI V6.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's the way it always plays out. The fat cats still get to live the lifestyles they've always enjoyed and the poor and middle class make all the sacrifices. While we're either taking the bus, riding bicycles, driving microcars, or walking, the fat cats will be zooming past us in their armored S-Classes as they dump their ashtrays full of spent Cohibas at us.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, I remember a time when most thought anything made outside the USA was inferior to what we made here. I still hold onto this notion. Whenever I go shopping, I look first for an item manufactured in the United States and gladly pay the higher price if need be.

    By the way, I'm enjoying my new Cadillac DTS immensely! I've driven it to relatives' and friends' homes all over during the holiday season.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Member Posts: 486
    Well, it's not completely surprising that the new engine program was killed, but I am a bit surprised. The thing we don't know is what happens next. Does Cadillac fold its tent on V8 power, which is pretty much a continuous tradition since the 1920's? Or does something else happen?

    The Ultra program had probably spent much of its development money on the technology research it needed to make a new product and was likely in the midst of testing. The question now is whether GM will salvage some of those technologies to extend the life of the old Northstar into the 2010s. VVT was grafted onto the Northstar during its last refresh a few years ago. DI could well ended up grafted to the current engine, as well as other enhancements. Who knows?

    The other thing we don't know is if Cadillac is moving toward other technologies to make up the performance slack. Lexus and Honda have already shipped performance hybrids (though Honda's was less successful). Cadillac could do something similar with the new two-mode transmission. The hard part will be getting the two-mode design small enough that will fit in the transmission bay of passenger vehicles versus full sized SUVs.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    perhaps the large RWD sedans will also get the ax along with the V8. or perhaps the battery development for the volt is going well and that can be used instead...
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Per some other comments and my guessing:
    CTS/STS: base engine in future 3.6L V6

    optional: Diesel

    V series: DOHC LS V8's that are being developed right now. Of course they need to be sure it fits.

    a document leaked on the web suggests that the General will change direction and introduce a new 6.2L dual overhead cam (DOHC) engine in 2011.

    The document in question is an internal memorandum of understanding between General Motors, the UAW and Delphi. The result of negotiations that took place back in June 2007, the document details future product commitments to which GM had agreed, one of which is a new 'Gen V' 6.2L DOHC V8 engine for use in the C3XX platform. As we learned from the most recent negotiations between GM and the UAW, C3XX is the codename for what will replace the GMT 900 platform that underpins the automaker's current line of full-size trucks and SUVs.

    In addition to a new overhead valve design, the Gen V engine will also feature variable valve timing like the Gen IV engine it replaces. Since the new engine will likely have four valves per cylinder because of its OHC design, expect the VVT to be even more beneficial. In addition, and perhaps most surprising, is that the Gen V will also feature GM's active fuel management (AFM) or cylinder deactivation technology. This technology alone will give it the leg up on other OHC engines like the Toyota Tundra's 5.7L DOHC V8.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    That's the way it always plays out. The fat cats still get to live the lifestyles they've always enjoyed and the poor and middle class make all the sacrifices. While we're either taking the bus, riding bicycles, driving microcars, or walking, the fat cats will be zooming past us in their armored S-Classes as they dump their ashtrays full of spent Cohibas at us.

    Great, we've gone from a Consumer Reports consipracy to some "wealth is the root of evil" conspiracy. Have I landed in a Socialist/Communist blog site by accident?

    I don't happen to be in the top income bracket or drive an S class, but for those that are envious of wealth, you might want to get off your sorry butts and do a little research. You will find the the lower half of Americans in terms of income pay a whopping grand total of 3% of all income taxes. That's it. anything less and it would be nothing. The upper half pay 97%. The top 5% pay 57%. Check it out: Income Taxes

    And as far as that S class? It get's 16 mpg combined, resulting in a gas guzzler tax of $3,700. But all those Escalades, Tahoes, Suburbans and Expeditions clogging our highways and parking lots? The get a combined 14 mpg, spew out an average of 20% more CO2 emissions but heaven forbid that they get hit with any gas guzzler tax whatsoever. After all, they are "work trucks" for all of those soccer moms according to the GM/Ford lobbyists that have come to your rescue. You know, the same lobbyists that worked against clean diesel requirements such that Mercedes couldn't import its 35 mpg E320 Bluetech until about a year ago (and still can't sell it in a few states).

    There are plenty of socioeconomic inequities in the world and in the US. But before anyone takes aim at the wealthy, you might want to get your facts straight. And you might end up finding that you owe a debt of gratitude to at least some of those S class driving entrepreneurs that creating wealth and jobs for others in spite of paying taxes to cover a bunch of freeloaders along the way.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Have I landed in a Socialist/Communist blog site by accident?

    Hab, you just found out?

    Geez...

    :P
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    I dont see any way that Caddy is going to get out of the V8 business but it obviously wont be getting a brand new DOHC engine design. I would say they will either extend the life of the northstar and give it some upgrades or start using a turbo V6 as a replacement like Lincoln is planning to do. Obviously the escalde will continue to be powered by V8 engines.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    "You will find the the lower half of Americans in terms of income pay a whopping grand total of 3% of all income taxes. That's it. anything less and it would be nothing. The upper half pay 97%. The top 5% pay 57%."

    You dont mention wealth allocation. If the top 5% have 90% of the wealth (dont know exact numbers) it would only make sense for them to pay their share in taxes. The lower half of Americans down own much and thus shouldnt be expected to pay as much as the rich. And of course this only considers federal income taxes, not all taxes paid. The lower half of society pays plenty in sales tax, gas tax, state/local income tax and property taxes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Without a modern, refined, powerful and fuel efficient DOHC V8 Caddy can kiss goodbye trying to compete with MB, BMW and Lexus in the top end luxury sedan market. Most traditional S/7er/LS buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a car with V6 (FI or not) or an OHV V8.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    You dont mention wealth allocation. If the top 5% have 90% of the wealth (dont know exact numbers)

    You can get those exact numbers by clicking on the link I provided or doing a 60 second google search yourself. The top 5% have 33% of the income, but pay 57% of the income taxes. the bottom half have 18% of the income, but only pay 3% of the income taxes. In other words, even factoring in welath, the top 5% pay over 10 times more income taxes in proportion to their income than the lower 50%.

    As for other taxes, it is almost equally disproportionate. Liberals cite sales tax, but forget that estate taxes are ONLY paid by the wealthy. And in terms of the government funded services that are paid for by taxes, the consumption is disproportionate to the lower half.

    Imagine if they tried to do this with a toll bridge. The first 20 folks that crossed would be free, the next 30 would pay a nickel, the next 40 would pay 50 cents, the next 8 would pay $10 and Warren Buffett and Bill Gates would pay $10,000 each. That's about the way it is. And the folks paying nothing or a nickel are complaining??
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Indeed, income and wealth distribution are also different. In terms of wealth, I believe the top 5% hold something like 60% of the means and the top 10% own 70%, with the bottom 80% owning 20% ...so the 'unfair' cries coming from some groups must be taken with a truckload of salt. And the distribution is becoming more skewed as time passes, I believe now it is at its greatest gap since the 20s.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Many good points. I will mention that the CTS I examined stickered at 48.xK, so it was pretty much a 50K car. It looked and felt like it, but the price did reflect it too.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I believe

    Famous last words. Sorry to pick on you, but may I respectfully suggest you don't "believe" a damn thing. Thanks to the internet and those wealthy Google guys, it's easy to get the actual facts, so that you can "know" them for yourself. Rather than get them filtered through and misquoted by CNN, Fox or pray tell, even from me.

    There is a point to all of this. Several posts ago, I offered to set aside my "belief" that Cadillacs are still the same old sub-par underwhelming cars from the 70's 80's and 90's and go out and gather some knew "knowledge" with an open mind. But darn it if the folks here who keep making conspiracy excuses for GM don't have me tempted to say the heck with it. Sometimes I think diehard GM supporters are its own worst enemy.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    And as far as that S class? It get's 16 mpg combined, resulting in a gas guzzler tax of $3,700. But all those Escalades, Tahoes, Suburbans and Expeditions clogging our highways and parking lots? The get a combined 14 mpg, spew out an average of 20% more CO2 emissions but heaven forbid that they get hit with any gas guzzler tax whatsoever. After all, they are "work trucks" for all of those soccer moms according to the GM/Ford lobbyists that have come to your rescue.

    I started the wealthy issue. My comment is only that just because you are wealthy should not mean you should get away with breaking the law. And my real reason for stating it is that with the new CAFE laws and if the US puts teeth behind it, Mercedes/BMW and everyone else will not be driving 400 hp gas guzzler V8's. They will have to do something to get the current 16 mpg up to around 33 mpg or so based on their footprint. Good luck with that with a gas V8.

    And yes the old SUV's got low mpg and they are taking a hit in sales as they should. Lets not get into an SUV is a devils mode of transportation forum. There are plenty of those sites out there. We drive one because we need to haul 4 kids and I carry lots of huge home building stuff and a car will not do. So I am a soccer dad and am happy to be here.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    "There is a point to all of this. Several posts ago, I offered to set aside my "belief" that Cadillacs are still the same old sub-par underwhelming cars from the 70's 80's and 90's and go out and gather some knew "knowledge" with an open mind. But darn it if the folks here who keep making conspiracy excuses for GM don't have me tempted to say the heck with it. Sometimes I think diehard GM supporters are its own worst enemy. "

    Cadillac is making nice vehicles regardless of what anyone says here. Not sure why you would base your car purchase decision on how you feel about comments made here. It seems like you are threatening Cadillac but I dont know why. Also, I dont get your comments about "GM supporters" being GM's worst enemy. Who are you targeting with this vitriol? who is telling lies about Cadillac?

    You dont have to do much research to know that CAdillac is making better vehicles these days. this is common knowledge to anyone who follows the industry.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    And I will respectfully suggest right back to you that you simma down a little :P .

    A quick google finds numbers pretty much on the nose of what I had in my head

    The world is going to become a dangerous place for crony capitalists as these trends continue and the chasms widen.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Wow, I guess we are up there with our 401's. Thank my father for me starting to put away at least 5% starting back when I was 22!!!!!!!! Too bad we do not have access to it yet. Of course that data is 10 years old so I am sure the top has gotten smaller and the amount higher.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >buyers wouldn't be caught dead in a car with V6 (FI or not) or an OHV V8

    Then I hope they get a hearse that's a BMW, Mercedes, Toyota L then; most around here are Cadillacs.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Truer words were never spoken.

    I liked all the respect though. :shades:
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    sure. Cadillac has stagnated a little bit in sales but overall they are on the right track and in 10 years they will likely have a more youthful image than Lexus and MB. Lexus is where Buick used to be and Cadillac is wisely not attempting to go head to head with Lexus and is doing their own thing. The primary reason Lexus has trounced Cadillac in sales for the last 4-5 years or whatever is that the RX outsells the SRX by a huge margin. If the new Caddy CRX is more successful than the SRX (and how can it not be?) I think Cadillac will be in a great position to close the sales gap with Lexus. Plus, Lexus owners will start dying off after a while and they will be in the same situation Buick and Cadillac were in several years ago. I read that 70% of Lexus owners are retired. That isnt good for the long term health of the brand. THese sales records are great but we should remind Lexus execs than Olds used to sell over a million cars a year 20 short years ago.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You may want to try again...

    Average buyer age:

    Buick - 60.8
    Cadillac - 53.4
    Lexus - 49.4

    Source: USA Today

    Now let's look at buyers' age profile for both Lexus and Cadillac's entry level models:

    Lexus IS
    Ages 16-35: 41%
    Ages 36-55: 43%
    Ages 56+: 17%

    Cadillac CTS
    Ages 16-35: 34%
    Ages 36-55: 54%
    Ages 56+: 12%
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If we take a look at the ES which is arguably the vehicle most buyers will compare the CTS to and is the volume vehicle at Lexus we can see where the old retired image is coming from.

    Cadillac CTS
    Ages 16-35: 34%
    Ages 36-55: 54%
    Ages 56+: 12%

    Lexus ES
    Ages 16-35: 8%
    Ages 36-55: 38%
    Ages 56+: 54%

    Lexus IS
    Ages 16-35: 41%
    Ages 36-55: 43%
    Ages 56+: 17%
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    True, but too bad that even with the ES and LS Lexus still managed to have an average buyer age lower than Cadillac.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Took a look at the other Caddy's numbers. STS has 73% and DTS even higher 91% over 56.

    But then I looked at the LS and it is 65% over 56 which is comparable to the STS. Guess money is in the hands of the boomers.

    I think though that the point is still that the Lexus buyers are aging and the average is going up year by year. Where did you get the manufacturer average age numbers?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Check the CTS graphs again - 12% is the 16 to 35
    54% is the over 56 group - this is an old man's car
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You are right, I got them mixed up.

    Man, before I though Caddy was doing well with the new CTS for attracting young buyers. Now it doesn't look good at all.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >before I though Caddy was doing well with the new CTS for attracting young buyers.

    Most of the owners now of CTS's in this part of the Midwest are younger than they used to be. And they impress me as quietly very afluent. That says to me they buy another car again in a few short years. That says opportunity for repeat sale of Cadillac product to their demographic based on age. It's up to Caddy to have it.

    The older buyers of Cadillacs tended to keep their cars long, in my observation, before trading them. Many bought early CTS's. But the younger, independent-minded owners I see are a good sign. Understand when I say "younger," I don't mean average of 35; it's more like 45 but there are 30-somethings in there.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Holy Cow 62' !!!! :cry:

    The ULTRA program had to be expensive. :sick: Why can't they add the 2-Mode Hybrid to it to help increase fuel efficiency pal ????

    This is most upsetting because I was really looking forward to that engine as it was a sign of change. I thought we would see V12 & V16 made out of that engine. :sick:

    -Rocky
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well they will need to add the 2-mode hybrid to the 3.6L to get the 33 mpg.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I have no doubt that diesels are in GM's future here and abroad. They will need every possible tool to get to the CAFE requirements.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Will we have horsepower and performance like we have now or is it a end of an era like it was in the 60's ??? :cry:

    -Rocky
  • tntmythtntmyth Member Posts: 70
    Thanks habitat1. Actually I find the "crossfire" between domestic and import lovers on these forums entertaining. I personally will buy domestic or foreign. I think we have to have an open mind towards all the choices out there. If we say we will only buy domestic or foreign, we are just cheating ourselves out of a choice, and at the same time, dooming the American manufacturers to failure no matter how hard they try or how good of a product they bring to the table. That would be a shame.
    I am pleasantly surprised that I am really jazzed by the new CTS. First time I have been impressed by an American sedan in a very long time. But hey, I still like the G35 and the 3 Series as well. And I may still buy either of these. I am pretty sure the the TL is out of the running, however, it was interesting that I could have bought a brand new TL loaded to the gills for about $32,000 at the end of the model year. Did not go for it at the time, but I am sure the same deal will be available this year as well. Can't get that kind of a deal on the 3 Series or a G35 at this time.

    Regarding your P.S. and the CTS size advantage, it is a larger car and, to me, partly because of the larger exterior size, the CTS looks more substantial and expensive than the 3 Series. It does seem like they could have gotten more room out of the CTS interior for its size. They should probably take some cues from Honda on engineering interior space. Here are the actual specs on the CTS, the 3 Series and I threw in the G35 as well from Edmunds.com. I could not find info on the 3 Series hip room.

    2008 Cadillac CTS
    Interior
    Front Head Room: 38.8 in. Front Hip Room: 55.1 in.
    Front Shoulder Room: 56.7 in. Rear Head Room: 37.2 in.
    Rear Shoulder Room: 54.7 in. Rear Hip Room: 54.1 in.
    Front Leg Room: 42.4 in. Rear Leg Room: 35.9 in.
    Luggage Capacity: 13.6 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 14 cu. ft.
    Maximum Seating: 5

    2008 BMW 3 Series Sedan
    Interior
    Front Head Room: 38.5 in. Front Shoulder Room: 55.4 in.
    Rear Head Room: 37.5 in. Rear Shoulder Room: 55.1 in.
    Front Leg Room: 41.5 in. Rear Leg Room: 34.6 in.
    Luggage Capacity: 12 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 12 cu. ft.
    Maximum Seating: 5

    2008 Infiniti G35
    Interior
    Front Head Room: 40.5 in. Front Hip Room: 55.1 in.
    Front Shoulder Room: 55.6 in. Rear Head Room: 37.7 in.
    Rear Shoulder Room: 55.2 in. Rear Hip Room: 53.7 in.
    Front Leg Room: 43.9 in. Rear Leg Room: 34.7 in.
    Luggage Capacity: 13.5 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 14 cu. ft.
    Maximum Seating: 5

    Looks like on rear seat specs, the CTS and the 3 Series are almost the same within 1/2 an inch on everything. CTS has more leg room in front and back. The 3 Series actually has 0.40 inches more shoulder room in back. I don't see how Cadillac struggled to get as much room as the 3 Series when it's about the same size as a 5 Series. But I have been in the CTS and for me, it's fine. At the moment, I don't have any kids and I would rarely need to put 3 people in the back seat. The back seat is comfortable for 2 people. I will mainly be sitting in front in the driver's seat/ :D. Overall, the CTS front seat has a nice cockpit feel for a typical 6' tall person. And I sat in the back with the front seat way back and my knees had room. The G35 is right there two. It has some larger interior dimensions than both the 3 Series and the CTS.
    But IMHO, there is another element to the size decision factor. I have a friend that has a Honda S2000. He is over 6 feet tall and squeezes himself into it. But he loves it! If I really need room, I'll get a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. The G35, 3 Series and CTS lean toward the fun yet still practical luxury sports sedan purchase. Not so much just about being totally practical and utilitarian. All three have about the same interior specs. And really. all three cars are big enough for me. For the entry level luxury sports sedan, I think its about style, fun, speed, luxury. They are fun to look at, fun to drive and even fun to buy. And the interior specs are about right. In this class of car, I won't choose one over the other because of a 1/2 inch of legroom, shoulder room or headroom on specs. If I were uncomfortable, that would be different. If I really need to put 3 people in the back, I will step up to the plate, spend an extra $10-15K and get an Audi A6, BMW 5 Series or an Infiniti M35. But I would just rather not spend the money when I am just as happy with a G35 or a CTS.

    Hey and regarding your friend that could afford to buy Aston Martin...we all know that once the rich pass a certain point, they get to not care what anyone thinks. They drive whatever they want and wear whatever they want. They are at the top of the food chain, it just doesn't matter and they could really care less. I have not evolved to that level yet. I hope to some day. :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A few posts that really didn't deal with Caddy have been shunted aside. Let me know if you would like a copy for your records. ;)

    I do windows too....
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Uh, look again:

    Cadillac CTS
    Ages 16-35: 34%
    Ages 36-55: 54%
    Ages 56+: 12%

    The greatest percentage is the middle age group - right within my demographic as I am 42. I guess I helped bring down the average age of the DTS buyer.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    CTS review by local newspaper writer

    This morning's paper had a review by the local auto reviewer. She usually doesn't like GMs as much as the other cars she writes about.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    You have to go to the JDPower website and look at the graphs - the green area is for over 55 and that is the biggest area. This was also true for the 2007 CTS's too, but the numbers are somewhat different.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    I dont consider 3 year old data to be relevant. Do you? C&D had info in their roadtest of the IS-F in the January issue and they said Lexus has an older ownership base. I would agree based on people I see driving every Lexus except the RX and IS. The ES is their biggest seller and I see mostly seniors piloting that model. MAkes sense because they see it as a Japanese Buick and most of those people grew up on Buicks.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    what do numbers from 2005 have to do with the 2008 CTS which has been on sale since August? If you read some of the consumer reviews on Edmunds you will see that many of the people who have commented cross-shopped and/or owned import luxury brands. Not sure what that says about their age but I suspect its a sign that they are younger than typical Caddy buyers. The other thing to look at is trends. Cadillac is getting younger buyers as time goes forward. I dont think we can say the same about lexus. I can tell you most drivers I see of the SRX, CTS (especially V) and Escalade are under 50. DTS and STS owners tend to be older based on my observatiosn.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    Jim Taylor has more or less confirmed that diesels are a strong option and Caddy will be phasing out DOHC V8s for cars after the Nstar is done. He mentions the DI V6 and diesels and hybrids as replacements. People can get bent out of shape but this is the future and honestly it will be good for Cadillac's image. Imagine how good it will be for Caddy PR to be able to say we have abandoned gas guzzling V8s in cars even though our competiors have not. In the future a V8 is likely to be an image liability instead of an asset. Even though the numbers are impressive we dont need 360+hp V8 cars and with the new emphasis on economy I would think such cars are only going to get less popular. As it is I rarely see 550i's or E550s.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I dunno. I think the lack of a V-8 hurts Acura and will kill Lincoln. Fuel economy isn't as high a priority among the luxury crowd as it is for the more mainstream crowd. I passed on a Buick Park Avenue in favor of a Cadillac back in the day because the Buick lacked a V-8.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Even though the numbers are impressive we dont need 360+hp V8 cars and with the new emphasis on economy I would think such cars are only going to get less popular.

    We don't "need" Cadillacs, period. We don't need BMW's, Mercedes, or Porsches for that matter.

    All of these vehicles offer absolutely nothing over a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord in terms of utility. They are purchased because the buyer has certain "desires", not because the Accord or Camry don't satisy their basic "need" for reliable transportation.

    Rare is the company that can succeed by telling the customer that "you don't need 'X', so take 'Y' and be happy with it".

    If YOU are more inclined to buy a Cadillac because they have gone green and stop offering V8's, that is certainly your perogative. But I agree with lemco on this one. Acura has never had a competitive flagship to take on the BMW 550i or Mercedes E550 in part due to the lack of a V8 (and, IMO, lack of RWD platforms). If Cadillac wants to compete with Honda or Toyota, perhaps a V6 will suffice, but I don't think they will be competitive in the performance sedan market. Even BMW, with their excellent 535i, has not announced plans to abandon the 550i.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    If the Volt electric drive system with the new battery technology works out, then what GM should be moving to is motor generator electric drive power train. So the performance would be depend on the electric drive. The motor generator would only need to be used to keep the battery charged, although the Volt concept is that the battery will provide about 40 miles of charge so that the day to day use would come off the power grid rather than the motor generator.

    The point is that with an all new technology for the drive train the old idea's of what makes a luxury car will have to change somewhat.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Even BMW, with their excellent 535i, has not announced plans to abandon the 550i.

    I also agree with pretty much everything you say but do no wait for BMW to announce dropping the V8 in the near term. They will continue to pay gaz guzzler taxes until the tax is so high actual buyers refuse to pay it. BMW will just pay the penalties as long as consumers support them. When will this happen? Well if everything stayed the same (gas prices, economy, regulations, etc.) it will probably be at least 5-10 years. And of course the V8 penetration would go down during that time. If gas doubles (I doubt it) it will go away faster, if gas remains the same (most likely scenario) then V8 will be around til the regs cut it off.

    DETROIT – The big, powerful V-8 engines that have been a mainstay of
    Cadillac's big sedans since the late 1930s are fading away, victims of
    the move to fuel efficiency.

    Cadillac's trademark V-8 engine will give way to smaller high-tech V-6s
    – and possibly some diesel engines – in Cadillac's cars.

    In an interview with Automotive News, Cadillac General Manager Jim
    Taylor said last week that Cadillac is considering a 2.9-liter
    turbocharged V-6 diesel for its mainstream U.S. sedans.

    Taylor's revelation came in the wake of General Motors' announcement
    last week that it has dropped plans to replace the Northstar V-8, which
    goes out of production in 2010. The Northstar has powered Cadillacs
    since 1993.

    It's all part of the new world of high fuel prices, rising fuel economy
    standards and pressure to reduce emissions.

    "On Dec. 19, the world changed," Taylor said. That's when President Bush
    signed a law mandating a 40 percent fuel-economy improvement by 2020.

    In the future, Cadillac's mainstream sedans probably won't offer V-8
    engines, Taylor said. Instead, the CTS and the successor to the STS and
    DTS will be powered by the 3.6-liter direct-injected V-6 that went on
    sale in 2007.

    In 2009, the new 2.9-liter diesel goes into production for Cadillac's
    CTS to be sold in Europe. Cadillac also could use that engine in U.S.
    models, Taylor said.

    After 2010, Cadillac could use a pushrod V-8 in its Escalade SUV and
    also in niche vehicles like the CTS-V and XLR roadster.

    Marketers once considered a V-8 engine an essential selling tool for the
    luxury market. But in a world of $100-per-barrel oil, those days may be
    gone. Lincoln, for example, does not offer a V-8 in its MKS sedan.

    And the percentage of Cadillac buyers who want a V-8 is declining. Only
    10 to 15 percent of Cadillac buyers insist on a V-8, while the others
    choose the V-6 powertrain.

    "You have such a narrow gap now in terms of performance ... that smart
    consumers are saying, 'I don't need it,' " Taylor says.

    Dealers appear to accept Cadillac's decision to reduce the size of its
    engines. At Moore Cadillac in Richmond, Va., two-thirds of buyers choose
    a V-6. They feel they get better fuel economy while achieving near-equal
    performance, says owner Jacques Moore.

    "The V-6 is adequate today for virtually all of Cadillac's sedan fleet,"
    Moore says.

    While the V-6 gasoline engine enjoys wide acceptance, a diesel-powered
    Cadillac might prove risky – at least in marketing terms. In the early
    1980s, Cadillac had a brief, disastrous experience selling
    diesel-powered cars, with powerplants hastily modified from gasoline
    engines.

    But that was then.

    Today, Mercedes sells a diesel version of its E-class sedan in the
    United States, and BMW plans to introduce diesels here. Cadillac's
    compact 60-degree European diesel, made in Italy by VM Motori, would be
    competitive. The engine will generate 250 hp and 406 pounds-feet of
    torque – performance comparable to a V-8.

    While Cadillac could accommodate a diesel in its U.S. fleet, Taylor says
    it probably would remain a niche product. "As long as BMW and Mercedes
    are going to have (diesel engines) and market them, those guys will lead
    the charge," Taylor notes.

    In the future, hybrid powertrains may replace V-8 engines as a mark of
    prestige, Taylor says. This summer, Cadillac dealers get the Escalade
    hybrid. GM has not announced pricing, but a fully loaded Escalade now
    sells at about $67,000.

    Asked whether customers would pay $70,000 for a hybrid Escalade, Taylor
    says yes. Someday, hybrid powertrains might become the new V-8, he says.

    "The world changed with the signing of the new fuel economy bill,"
    Taylor says. "That's the new world."
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    The RL hasnt sold for a number of reasons. A lack of a V8 is one of them but not the only one. Also, the RL may prove to be ahead of its time if V8s start to become scarce in the midsize luxury class. The MKZ doesnt have a V8 and its the only modern car Lincoln makes and its sold decently.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles