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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    "All of these vehicles offer absolutely nothing over a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord in terms of utility. They are purchased because the buyer has certain "desires", not because the Accord or Camry don't satisy their basic "need" for reliable transportation.

    Rare is the company that can succeed by telling the customer that "you don't need 'X', so take 'Y' and be happy with it".

    You are angry and confrontational for reasons I cant discern at this time. Not sure why you are getting so bent out of shape because I am not one of these people who says we should shame anyone who owns an SUV or luxury sedan. That said, the rules have been changed and there is nothing we can do about it. From an image and CAFE standpoint V8s are going to get less popular. Not sure why you or anyone else wouldn't think this is coming after the law was signed. I see you made no mention of how small V8 sales are in European sedans. You say that no V8 in the CTS and STS (remember CTS-V will have V8) means Cadillac is trying to compete with Toyota and HOnda (funny) but the fact of the matter is 80% or 90% of sedans that offer a V8 are sold with a V6. This has been the case with the STS even though until the 2008 model year the V6 made only 255hp. Now that it has 302hp you can rest assured the V8 will be even less popular. BMW made its own V8 obsolete when it put the 300hp I-6 in the 535. The 535 is just as fast as the old 545i and barely slower than the 550i.

    BTW, lets not confuse Acura with cadillac. Cadillac has a RWD chassis with near 50/50 weight distribution and develops cars on the Ring. Acura does neither. A powerful RWD sports sedan with a six cylinder engine will sell as evidenced by the 3 series, G35 and new CTS. The DTS comes standard with a 275hp V8 right now so I dont see how its replacement will be at a disadvantage with a standard 304hp V6.

    I wish things werent this way but I'm glad GM is being proactive instead of investing millions in a small volume V8 that would only hurt their CAFE numbers in the long run.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I would agree based on people I see driving every Lexus except the RX and IS.

    You are right.

    The ES is their biggest seller

    Wrong, the RX is their biggest seller so see above.

    By the way, what Cadillac product have the youngest owner age? I would bet it's the CTS and maybe the Escalade. But according to the JP Power data we can see that even with the new 2008 CTS, Caddy is not attracting many owners under the age of 40.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I wasn't attempting to vent anger or be confrontational in my previous post. I was merely responding to your comment suggesting that Cadillac can/should/might drip V8's from their line-up because of your opinion that the buying public doesn't "need" them. "Need" is not the issue. As long as they are desired by a segment of the luxury performance sedan market, it would be somewhat risky, IMO, for Cadillac to drop them from their model lines while Mercedes, BMW, Lexus and Infiniti have them.

    The fact that 80%-90% of sedans are sold with a I6/V6 can also be misconstrued. BMW sells 85%+ of its 5-series with an automatic transmission. But their image as being king of the hill in the sport sedan segment almost mandates that they cater to the enthusiast minority, many of whom require a manual transmission. A decision by BMW to drop the manual transmission would, again IMO, have an impact beyond the 15% that actually buy a manual.

    On the side note of confusing Acura with Cadillac, I have been unbashful in my criticism of Acura in other forums for not using its engineering prowess and Formula One expereince/success more to its advantage. This in spite of having a 2004 TL 6-speed and 2005 MDX in our garage. Nevertheless, let's not confuse a RWD platform, 50/50 weight balance, and a marketing show at "The Ring" with world class driving dynamics. Acura may be guilty of conservative underachievement (with the exception of the Honda S2000), but Cadillac is no BMW when it comes to driving dynamics.

    I do agree with your point that the new fuel efficiency / CAFE requirements are going to result in some changes in both attitudes and model offerings. I myself am looking forward to my first drive in a BMW 535d. My marketing director has a E320 Bluetech and routinely gets in the high 30's MPG at 75 mph on the highway. She claims to have never gotten worse than 24 for a tank in mostly city driving. The high performance diesels, in my opinion, are likely to be the big victors in this battle to achieve better fuel efficiency.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You need to read the original post again, the average buyer age data is from 2005 (the most recent that I can found) but the IS and CTS owner age breakdowns are for 2008 model. Just in Case you missed it I'll post again.

    JD Power Model Age Profile (all 2008 models except the Lexus LS which is 2007):

    Cadillac CTS:
    Ages 16-35 - 12%
    Ages 36-55 - 34%
    Ages 56+ - 54%

    Cadillac STS:
    Ages 16-35 - 5%
    Ages 36-55 - 22%
    Ages 56+ - 73%

    Lexus IS:
    Ages 16-35 - 41%
    Ages 36-55 - 43%
    Ages 56+ - 17%

    Lexus ES:
    Ages 16-35 - 8%
    Ages 36-55 - 38%
    Ages 56+ - 54%

    Lexus GS:
    Ages 16-35 - 30%
    Ages 36-55 - 30%
    Ages 56+ - 40%

    Lexus LS:
    Ages 16-35 - 6%
    Ages 36-55 - 29%
    Ages 56+ - 65%

    Cadillac really don't have much of a case here declaring it has a younger image than Lexus except maybe the ES. However, even the ES has the same age profile as the CTS, the youngest model of all Cadillac. What more amazingly is that even the Lexus LS has a younger age profile than Cadillac's "sports sedan" STS. :surprise:

    Cadillac is getting younger buyers as time goes forward. I dont think we can say the same about lexus.

    Really? Lexus is getting a whole lot more buying into their 2nd generation IS and with the age profile it has I am sure it has contributed A LOT to getting Lexus younger. On the other hand, Cadillac really can't say that about their new 2008 CTS because very unfortunately, the old 2007 CTS has a younger age profile:

    2007 CTS:
    Ages 16-35 - 14%
    Ages 36-55 - 39%
    Ages 56+ - 47%

    I can tell you most drivers I see of the SRX, CTS (especially V) and Escalade are under 50

    2008 Escalade:
    Ages 16-35 - 23%
    Ages 36-55 - 53%
    Ages 56+ - 24%

    2008 SRX:
    Ages 16-35 - 4%
    Ages 36-55 - 41%
    Ages 56+ - 55%

    You maybe have a case here for the Escalade but the cold hard data from JD Power doesn't support your statement for the SRX and CTS. I am sure CTS-V has a lot young owners but unfortunately Cadillac doesn't make those in significant numbers so it has little say to the overall picture.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,167
    Interesting you mention the Bluetec...I read MB is coming with a diesel hybrid S-class for 2010 (estimated 40mpg highway), and it is slated to be sold in the NA market. Hybrids are coming to the upper end, will Caddy have one too?
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I wonder what the age breakdown is for a Ferrari 430 or a 911 Turbo? My guess is that a high percentage of buyers are in the 56+ category, not because the car doesn't appeal to a younger demographics, but rather because of affordability issues. I would think the Lexus LS, especially the $100k hybrid version, suffers a little of this.

    Lexus doesn't exactly have a young "hip" image but, on the other hand, Cadillac still has an image among some of appealing to the very old and dead demographic. Perhaps that is changing. But they do spend as much advertising dollars on the Senior PGA tour as the regular PGA tour. Saw that in the WSJ a few weeks ago. Author joked that they should come with Viagra (another big Senior Tour advertiser) in the glove compartment.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I agree that comparing who has a younger image between Lexus and Cadillac is like comparing who is less messed up between Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears. What I was trying to point out is that the perception of "Lexus is quickly becoming Buick and Cadillac is getting younger than ever" couldn't be as more wrong.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    But according to the JP Power data we can see that even with the new 2008 CTS, Caddy is not attracting many owners under the age of 40.

    Very true but if we look at Mercedes their average age is 59, 6 years older than Cadillac (53). Heck Rolls is a dead old age of 63 :P . Lexus is just under Cadillac with 49. Even BMW with their very youthful/sporty/performance high volume 3 series has an average of 46.

    So it really looks like the major reason that Cadillac and others in the same $ ball park are buyers with an average of close to 50 is due to wealth, and most of the wealth in this country is held by older folks.

    And if you look at the younger average ages you see that they are all low priced marques. Who woulda thought!!

    But there is no doubt that if Cadillac wants to attract the same buyers as BMW they have their work cut out for them. CTS is just a start. When they drop the DTS next year most of those buyers will swap over to the STS but many will just keep their DTS untill they can no longer drive. In the short run dropping the DTS should drop Cadillacs average age but in the longer term they need to continue to go after the baby boomers with a different kind of product.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The 2008 model year just started a few months back so I think we should see where the CTS stands after a full year. I would think it appeals to more younger people than before.

    One probable reason why CTS is selling to an older crowd relative to it's 2007 version is because the ATP is probably $5000 higher. The 2008 has more content and the ATP is always much higher for any new vehicle at it's new model intro. People pay closer to MSRP, buy more options and get the higher models. Couple years into it's life cycle it goes the other way. SOOO, again the wealthier buy in the first years and that means the older consumer is buying.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Where are you getting the average age data? I'd like to look at some others for the fun of it.

    I'm actually surprised that the average age of a Rolls owner is only 63. About half of the ones I see are being driven by a chauffer and "Miss Daisy" looks to be in her 80's or 90's. Maybe it's the kids buying the car for mom and writing it off as a medical expense.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-02-16-seniorcars-usat_x.htm

    Someone earlier on posted it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well that new Twin-Turbo V6 with 340 hp and 367 tq. sure looks might fine while gaining I think a 30% fuel economy boost. The engine known as Eco-Boost or something like that is posted in the MKS forum. The MKS, like the CTS, is the car to have !!!! :shades: Lemko, have you checked the MKS, out pal ? Man that car is Sharp !!! :shades: :shades: :shades: :shades:

    -Rocky
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Thanks for the link, but it does raise an interesting question.

    According to the article:

    the baby boomers, who will start hitting age 65 in 2011 ..... Eventually, 79 million baby boomers will hit 65.

    Cadillac has remade itself as a powerful, youthful brand, and its last old-fogy car — the DeVille — is in its final model year. General Motors, which owns Cadillac, dropped the Oldsmobile brand because of its older image and waning sales.

    GM's Buick, Olds and Cadillac divisions were catering to an older demographic when that segment wasn't very large and younger buyers flocked to other brands and makes. Now that the American popluation is about to enter the most significant "graying of America" period in it's history, Olds has been killed and Caddy is trying to be young and hip.

    Regardless of my personal preferences in cars, it appears that GM is perenially out of sync. They needed young and hip cars 20 years ago. Today they might actually want models that appeal to the older generation which will be increasing significantly over the next 20+ years. That doesn't mean "stodgy", as the article suggests. But it also doesn't mean ignoring the only demographic segment and loyal customer base that has kept the company out of bankruptcy. It's not the older buyers that are the "enemy" of GM. It was the incompetent employees in the design, engineering, marketing and manufacturing departments that couldn't put together decent cars to appeal to younger buyers in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's. Now might be exactly the right time to embrace the older buyer.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    it appears that GM is perenially out of sync. They needed young and hip cars 20 years ago. Today they might actually want models that appeal to the older generation which will be increasing significantly over the next 20+ years.

    I thought the article said it but perhaps it was some other. The baby boomers do not want old people cars. Since I am just about 50 (WOW) I can see that. The cars of yesteryear designed for older folks were well done and did their jobs great. Buicks, Olds and Cadillac did great. But today's soon to be old population does not want that. They do not want to drive old cars. Buick and Cadillac are doing exactly what the older population coming up wants. The Cadillacs are more performance oriented and hip. Buicks are becoming more stylish and premium lux, including the ride. I see nowhere where GM has thrown away the older market. If anything they continue to get it, as evidenced by our previous threads.

    Now if you feel Caddy and Buick are taking the wrong direction I wonder who you think the boomers will be buying into? Lexus? Well they are as close to Buick in so many ways that Buick will be there for them. Mercedes/BMW? Again Cadillac is right there with their new products coming out. Both divisions are squarely aiming at the boomers with money. Most Chevrolet models also can satisfy boomers that do not have the money or do not feel the need to spend it on a car. Only Saturn and Pontiac seem to be going after a more youthful market.

    Heck what makes a vehicle more attractive to the boomers? Ride? Ergonomics? Styling?
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    For those who continue to doubt that Cadillac is serious about competing I suggest you check out the specs on the CTS-V. I'm sure there will still be naysayers claiming "it looks good on paper but that doesnt mean it can compete with M cars" but I will let the car speak for itself. Based on GM press release the car has 550hp and 550 lb-ft from the 6.2L V8 as well as 19" rims on Z rated tires, huge Brembo brakes with 6 piston calipers in front and 4 in the back, recaro seats with 14 way adjustment, magneride, launch control system to keep the car from burning up rear tires, choice of 6 speed auto with paddle shifters and 6 speed manual and new interior trim. It may not be standard of the world, but its sounds good to me and enough to meet or beat the E63 and M5.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    Could be interesting:

    http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/events/autoshows/08naias/brands/cadillac/ctsv/- 08_NAIAS_09_Cadillac%20CTS-V_Overview.htm
    2022 X3 M40i
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    I would like to see some interior pics but It looks like we may have to wait a few days for that to happen. So far it sounds quite impressive.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    It's not the older buyers that are the "enemy" of GM. It was the incompetent employees in the design, engineering, marketing and manufacturing departments that couldn't put together decent cars to appeal to younger buyers in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.

    Give majority blame for GM woes of 70's-90's to lack of proper direction and leadership. Success/failure of any company lies primarily with top management.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    I agree. Better management and investments in the last few years have generated GM's best products ever. The most important thing is consistency- GM seems to be able to turn out consistently good vehicles these days. None are below average in design and performance and some are near the top of their respective class.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The five-passenger Provoq has a 300-mile driving range, of which 280 are provided via the hydrogen power through the electric battery. Caldwell said Cadillac is not estimating the horsepower of the Provoq. The new concept sprints from zero to 60 mph in 8.5 seconds"

    Cadillac Provoq Concept Offers Provocative Look at the Future (Inside Line)

    image
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    that is most likely hte 2010 BRX right there. The interior is almost 100% production ready.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I agree, looks like it. Where are pics of the interior?
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    you can see them at autoblog.com amongst other places. The interior is very similar to CTS.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    pics are up on autoblog. It looks like a winner in every respect.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    1 – Price \ MSRP.
    My personal opinion is that the STS-v has been overpriced from the start.
    I have driven an STS-v, and I see it as a pretty nice $55K car.
    At over $77K MSRP now, even with a substantial ‘discount’, I just don’t see the value proposition.
    And the XLR-v . . . well I think that MSRP is just silly.

    2 – Gas Guzzler Tax aside, I do wonder about that 3.73:1 final drive.
    The STS-v EPA is ( um ) not very good. The 2007 rating is 14 \ 21.
    With a 3.23:1 final drive – and the 469 HP S/C NortStar.
    I’ll bet the 2009 CTS-v will be rated below 20 for the EPA Highway.
    Regardless of income, some people would prefer using less gasoline,
    And a longer cruising range.
    2022 X3 M40i
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Except for the Roots blower. :( One would think Cadillac could afford a twin-screw.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    true same here.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    I like the look, I hope it does make it to production in place of the SRX
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    image

    The Escalade saved Cadillac and may put them where they need to be if they spend a little more and do a few key things to bring this vehicle up to date. They need intelligent key, Nissan has been using this among their vehicles since 2004, Cadillac is a luxury brand they need to incoporate it into all of their vehicles.

    The need to get rid of the axle and get a four wheel independent suspension. I was shocked that for a vehicle of this size that GM has not given it BRAKE ASSIST. This is vital This is a marquee vehicle GM has had some issues with the transmissions and some vibration from the driver side mirrors. But not all 07 Escalades and up have exhibited these problems. Every redesign needs a year or two to work the bugs out, so I personally am holding off on purchasing a new Esclade at least until a new model year. I need to be monitor GM progress on this vehicle and consumer reports.

    This vehicle has attracted all kinds of buyers and when the name Cadillac is mentioned anywhere in the world the first vehicle that comes to mind is the Escalade. Other vehicles like the Infiniti QX56 and GL450 may be more refined and or have more standard features, but the Escalade is something for GM to be proud of ., hey need to perfect this vehicle, this vehicle is the leading luxury SUV in sales in the U.S. and it can continue to be, here and in other countries if GM stops cutting corners and produces a more solidly built vehicle.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    Great, we've gone from a Consumer Reports consipracy to some "wealth is the root of evil" conspiracy. Have I landed in a Socialist/Communist blog site by accident?

    lol...he's just voicing his oppinion.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    I'm anxious to see a DOHC in an Escalade, they need to do away with that barbaric engine design
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    WOW, this is my dream car !!!! :surprise: :shades:

    The 2009' CTS-V is simpily the greatest automobile ever made at any price and is the standard of the world of all cars. OMG !!!! :shades:

    -Rocky
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    the CTS V is a great vehicle for the price.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,192
    "the CTS V is a great vehicle for the price. "

    I have only seen estimates ( MT says $62K base ) ... ??
    2022 X3 M40i
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    nothing "barbaric" about the 6.2L V8. It outpowers the GL550 and almost everthing else in its class while getting equal fuel economy. OHV doesnt mean inferior, it just means its not an OHC engine. I think GM has proven over and over again that OHV engines are competitive. Funny that someone would criticize the Escalade's class leading engine just because its 2 valves/cylinder.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    obviously cadillac hasnt disclosed the price but its going to be well under the $82k price of the M5 and thats whats important here. I would think $65k is a realistic price for this car. Lexus is charging $60k for the IS-F and that only has 416hp.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    It should be noted that OHC engines are also OHV designs. The basic advantage of a double OHC design is that the intake and exhaust valves can have independent variable timing. Most pushrod only have one intake and one exhaust valve which is a matter of design, but most OHC engines have multiple intake and exhaust valves. So, as I see it, the DOHC design has two basic advantages, while the pushrod design has the advantage of lower cost.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    OHV engines with VVT cannot vary timing of intake and exhaust valves separately as you note. The advantages of OHV are cost, weight and size. In addition it's easier to deactivate cylinders in an OHV engine which is why only Honda does this on OHC motors. The escalades's engine has great power and torque and VVT. There isnt a better engine in a large luxury SUV. even Toyota's 5.7L has less power and torque and a lower redline while having no advantage in efficiency. Ranger rover's supercharged 4.2L only makes 390hp.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    OHCs also have less reciprocating mass in the valvetrain, which leads to lower NVH versus a conventional pushrod design.
  • sevenfeet0sevenfeet0 Member Posts: 486
    I've been reading some of the initial reports of this car since it broke cover. All I have to say is:

    "Whoa!"

    The old CTS-V was pretty much an afterthought. The original CTS was first penned in 1999 and by the time it shipped to dealers in January '03, it was considered Cadillac's last chance to be relavent, not the start of various cars based on this one. So when a hot-rod was proposed, the original car hadn't even been designed for it in mind. So GM had to do the old fomular of hot-rodding that they started in the 1960's with the original Pontiac Tempest. Stick a big engine in this car, find an appropriate tranny, some new tires, firm the suspension and go. That alone proved to be difficult since Caddy's own Northstar wouldn't fit in the engine bay (too wide)...again, a problem when the car wasn't even designed for this possibility. But Chevy had a nice compact LS engine from the Corvette and they were relatively cheap to build. And it's not like Cadillac hadn't been shipping OHV engines every year since 1951...after all, they got the whole OHV thing started in the first place.

    So the 2004 CTS-V shipped to generally good reviews and modest sales. Part of those sales problems could be blamed on some of that car's limitations. The car had lots of nice power, but the 6-speed transmission didn't have the finesse of a BMW tranny...heck even a Honda. Who puts a foot brake in a performance car? No auto tranny option (they sell much better as Mercedes will attest). The car had to have structural bracing retrofitted to handle the extra power. The wheel wells really only handled 18" rubber well instead of larger wheels. The car was notorious for its wheel hop problems because the rear transaxle couldn't remain stable with that much power (and owners found the rear transaxle easy to break in normal use). Finally, the interior, already maligned in the base CTS was really out of its league compared to BMW and Mercedes in this price class.

    Fast forward to this car. I think GM has pretty much thrown down the gauntlet with this vehicle. The old CTS-V was always a "great vehicle for the price". I think that Cadillac wants this to be "a great vehicle, period". Let's look at what's changed. First, the donor platform was designed with this vehicle in mind from day 1. That means that all the jury rigged stuff in the last car is gone, replaced by thoughtful design. Type of engine, wheels, brakes, transmission choices, styling..everything was designed from the start of the vehicle program. The old LS engine was pretty nice...400 HP...most powerful Caddy ever when introduced. But the Mercedes E55 would go past that quickly and the E63 and BMW M5 would show that 500 HP was required to play with the big dogs. The Corvette team again let Caddy borrow one of it's crown jewels...a detuned LS9 capable of 550 HP. That's more HP than the Corvette Z06 (although the Z06 still weighs 1200 lbs less!). But with so much power, it now had a favorable power-to-weight ratio of its competitors and something they don't have...dump truck torque capability. 550 ft.lbs of torque is simple scary.

    The transmission? In addition to a better manual gearbox, a six speed auto tranny with paddle shifters is now an option (amazing for a car with this much torque). Wheels are 19" now with wide enough rubber for this application. The wheel hop problem has (hopefully) been banished with different diameter axles (the Corvettes have this too). The interior is already class leading (or certainly close to it), some upgrades set the CTS-V apart from its lesser stablemates. The old seats were pretty much the same seats as the normal car with sude inserts to keep you from sliding around. This time, GM just said "screw it, no one will argue with a Recaro seat". The new seats are 14 way with microfiber inserts and big thigh bolsters and taller headrests...no swishing around in these seats. Microfiber even made it to the steering wheel to replace normally slippery leather or wood. And the old foot parking brake? Banished. Halle-freakin'-lujah. This needs to be in the base car ASAP.

    It still may be a few months before any of the press gets to drive this thing, but on paper it looks like GM left no stone unturned with criticism of the old car. Even the press release says the target bogeys were the M5, E55 and E63. No pressure there guys. Nice to see you shooting for the lead. When the new CTS was introduced, my dealer's son told me "Gee, have we killed the STS?" Well, yes they did. The CTS-V now puts the STS-V on the trailer as well. Since the STS's days are numbered, I'm not even sure GM will bother with a refresh and just concentrate on the next, larger flagship. And how long do you think it'll be before the XLR-V gets its refresh, complete with this engine from its sister Corvette.? Exactly.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The pushrods and rocker arms (SOHC engines also require a rocker arm) do add parts and noise to the valve train. I am not sure how much mass there is relative to the pistons and connecting rods though. But the extra parts in the valve train add noise, and worse, they add delays in the timing which has to be taken into account when designing the cams.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    that may be true in some way but there are many ways to reduce noise. You wont find any appreciable difference in engine noise in a luxury vehicle regardless of engine type. The escalade is as quiet as anything else in its segment. I rented a Lacrosse with the 3800 once and I can assure you there was no thrash from the engine bay. Lexus like quiet.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    I'm all for your enthusiasm but it should be noted the current CTS is on the same platform as the old one. I'm not sure about your theory that the first gen car wasnt meant to have a V series. I would say Cadillac planned to do it from the start and they did a good job for a first effort. The CTS-V had a few flaws but for $50k it was a great car and its axle hop issues wouldnt be a problem for regular owners who are unlikely to do full throttle launches or drag races. That car was far more than a simple 60s type muscle car enhancement. The styling, engine, wheels, tires, transmission and brakes were all upgraded to create a 4000lb car that was ready to tackle the Ring with confidence.

    As for the STS, its already been established that it and the DTS will be replaced by one RWD car in 2010 or so. I too believe the XLR will be refreshed with a new interior and more power very soon.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Inside the vehicle, no, thanks to engine covers, dynamic motor mounts, and gobs and gobs of cabin insulation. Outside the vehicle is another story, though.
  • mr215mr215 Member Posts: 89
    the exhaust note is what you hear when an escalade (or other GMT900 SUV) drives by, not the engine. In my experience German cars make a lot more racket outside the car than Asian or GM cars. I have seen many GM SUVs on the streets and never have I found engine noise to be objectionable or even noticeable. Acoustic engine covers are going to mute noise all around so being inside or outside the vehicle is irrelevant. If you really want to hear obnoxious sounds outside of a vehicle listen to a 350Z, G35 coupe or FX or any of Nissan's V8 powered vehicles. They are all loud and annoying to me.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I'm talking specifically about the noise from the engine at idle, not the exhaust.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that you have a valid point. My northstar V8s are very quite at idle after they are warmed up. I think that calling the pushrod designs barbaric is a bit over the top though (that was not your post though). I will point out that the DI 3.6 has a noise problem that is a result of its design.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Lexus is charging $60k for the IS-F and that only has 416hp.

    And BMW is charging over $60k for the M3 and that only has 410hp and 2 less doors!!. Better yet, Porsche is charging $60k for the Boxster and that doesn't even have 300hp. :surprise: Also Lotus is...

    I can go on and on and on you know. :sick:

    By the way, I'll take NA over FI anytime.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I think you need to buy the girlfriend a 09' CTS-V. :blush: Sounds like a good excuse..... :P

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,151
    62vettefp posted a mention about autolinedetroit.com and a discussion about picking and driving the Car of the Year award candidates in another discussion here on Edmunds.

    I'm posting the link for the video of the PBS show in Detroit from Sunday.

    link title

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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