Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

62vetteefp · January 2008

Tony expounds wonderment on the beauty of the CTS, expecially the rear end and sail panels. Talks about the CTS Coupe, which will be built, convertible, stations wagon and diesel.

Jeanne Jennings (Automobile) talks about her love of the BMW 1 series($36K base!!). Then discusses how great the GM vehicles are including the CTS coupe and CTS-V and SR1.

Jim Hall (ex-AutoPacifica) says the the CTS coupe is astonishing. Says it was the most succesful car, from a styling point, of any car at NAIAS.

Even Wolfgang Puck was there and he loved the Escalade. I guess that answers this question: "There are only a few hundred professional athletes out there and a few dozen rappers. Who is buying the rest of these Escalades?"

Jason Vines (ex Chrysler) says CTS Coupe was stunning and GM won the NAIAS show. Wagoner doing great and the best press conference ever.

http://www.autolinedetroit.tv/ The New Frontier

sls002 · January 2008

Lindamood really liked the forerunner of the BMW 3-series, which was a model 2002 (a strange number for BMW series names). Anyway my understanding is that the new 1-series is about the size of the 2002 model and is therefore a return to a more nimble sized BMW. The 3-series has grown over the last 20 years by a significant amount.

What this means is that the CTS is a much bigger car than the entry level BMW used to be, and perhaps should be. I do hope that Cadillac is not planning to bump the CTS price range up by $15 to 25,000 over the next 5 years. I recall what GM did to the G-body pricing (the Buick Park Avenue in particular, but the DeVille too).

bumpy · January 2008

Anyway my understanding is that the new 1-series is about the size of the 2002 model

If that were true, I'd be willing to put up with the aggravation of owning a German car. The 2002 was about the same size and weight as a Yaris, while the 1er is half a foot longer and half a ton heavier.

62vetteefp · January 2008

love of the BMW 1 series($36K base!!).

I need to correct myself. In looking at the BMW website the 3L turbo 1 series is $35k. The 3L nonturbo is $29K. I must have missed the words turbo from Jeanne.

Anyway in ~two years my pricing guess( in todays dollars) with comparable equipped:

BLS 3L 263hp (1 -3 series size) $27K vs. 1 series 3L 230hp $29k
BLS 3L 300hp $32K vs. 1 series 3L 300hp $35K

CTS 3L 263hp (3-5 series size) $35K base vs. 3 series 3L 230 hp $34K
CTS 3L 300hp $36K vs. 3 series 3L 300hp $39K
CTS-V 550hp $49k VS. M3??? series 330hp $65K

STS 3L 300hp $44K vs. 5 series 3L 300hp $52K
STS-V 3L 550hp $80K vs. M5 series 360 500hp $83K

bumpy · January 2008

BLS 3L 263hp (1 -3 series size) $27K vs. 1 series 3L 230hp $29k
BLS 3L 300hp $32K vs. 1 series 3L 300hp $35K

Do you think GM would really stick that big old 3.6L V6 into a car that needs to sell well in Europe and other displacement-sensitive markets to cover its development costs? A 240 hp turbo 2.0 and 330 hp turbo 2.8 would be wiser choices, plus the 1.9 turbodiesel from the Vectra.

sls002 · January 2008

The 1-series is basically the 3 series body structure with a shorter wheelbase. Like the CTS, a stiff body requires a bit of mass.

mr215 · January 2008

GM sells the same car with different engines for different markets. The Vue, Astra, Aura/Vectra and 9-3 are examples. In Europe GM will offer plenty of small engines for the BLS to meet market demands. They are using Saabs 2.8L turbo in the current car which is based on the 9-3.

62vetteefp · January 2008

I am talking about the future BLS replacement based on the RWD Alpha platform.

62vetteefp · January 2008

BLS 3L 263hp (1 -3 series size) $27K vs. 1 series 3L 230hp $29k
BLS 3L 300hp $32K vs. 1 series 3L 300hp $35K

Do you think GM would really stick that big old 3.6L V6 into a car that needs to sell well in Europe and other displacement-sensitive markets to cover its development costs? A 240 hp turbo 2.0 and 330 hp turbo 2.8 would be wiser choices, plus the 1.9 turbodiesel from the Vectra.

I was talking NA sales only and direct models to the BMW US competition. Base engine in the 1 series is the 6 cylinder 230 hp with the 6 cylinder turbo 300 hp version as an option in the US. I believe Cadillac will put the same engines in the Alpha as the CTS to compete with BMW. With the new CAFE rules it could also come with the smaller powertrains here. However if they fit the 2.8 turbo in it the 3.6 would drop in. hint: Alpha is being developed in Austrailia and the 3.6 engine is also built there now as are a number of other versions of it. Also the current version of the 2.8 Turbo only develops 255 hp and GM needs 300 to compete with BMW.

As far as other engine choices GM will need to have both a 4 and 6 diesel versions for the world and US. And most likely that would mean a gas 4 cylinder also. Really doubt GM would put all those engines in but I see at least 4 engines available in it sowewhere in the world.

That is a lot of powertrains but GM would have them also available in the CTS and STS. The 1 series has at least 5 different engines available with the actual selection determined by country of sale.

62vetteefp · January 2008

After all the discussion here on whether the CTS is competition for the 3 or the 5 series I believe we have said that the CTS is the exterior size of the 5, interior size somewhere inbetween, and price of a 3 series, right? Thiswhole discussion started with my asking if the new CTS could be competition with the 5 series because it was that size. Since there was no true road test between them we could not get an unbiased (is that possible) comparison.

C&D cover story is that the CTS-V is an M5 beater. Unfortunately there is little meat in the article. Just discusses the CTS-V content and possible performance. They had no car to drive yet.

rayainsw · January 2008

In the R&T December 2007 issue, the editors decided that the 535i was not truly a CTS competitor  largely due to the price difference.

The acceleration numbers ( same day, driver & venue, apparently ) show that the 535i is a lot quicker.
0  60 = 5.1 vs 6.0 for the CTS w/DI.
Quarter Mile = 13.7 @ 102.6 vs 14.5 @ 98.2 for the CTS.
They also mention 0.91G lateral grip vs the CTS 0.86 ( each w/Sport Perf. Pkg. )

Those acceleration numbers are different enough that Id expect those who care about such things ( that would include me ) could easily tell which is quicker.

And the lateral grip numbers + many other comments about the 535is handling + ride suggest that the BMW provides some additional value in these departments  for the significant additional cost.

sls002 · January 2008

One would expect to get something for the extra cost of the 535. I think R&T confirmed that you do get something.

I think that the CTS is an excellent vehicle for the money. It really is not either a 3-series or a 5-series vehicle, it is something in between. It is a Cadillac sports sedan in the $35 to 50,000 price range.

sls002 · January 2008

As I have said before, the real competition is the AMG Mercedes 63 models. I think with 550 hp the CTS_V will be competitive in acceleration.

sls002 · January 2008

Had the oil changed on the SRX yesterday, and tires rotated. Did not see a CTS in showroom, and since it was below zero wind chill outside I did not go looking for the one that was in stock.

They said that both the tires and brake pads had "light wear" :confuse:
With nearly 12,000 miles there is 10mm of brake lining left and 8/32 tread left on tires...

markian · January 2008

I have read the reviews on the CTS for 2008 and they are fantasic. I am presently driving and Infiniti M45 sport. The car drives great, but evertime I have to take the car in for repairs it takes at least three weeks. I took my car in for service in early November 2007, because the GPS and radio would not come on. It took Infiniti 11 weeks for the part to arrive. There were no parts in North America. I do not believe that if I purchased a Cadillac that I would have to wait almost three months to obtain a part. I understand that there can be repair problems with a car, but I cannot a company like Infiniti not having any inventory. I am nervous to take my car on a long highway trip, because if it breaks down I may not be able to obtain the part. I believe Cadillac is trying to step up to the plate and take on the German and Japanese manufacturers. I really hope they do it.

sls002 · February 2008

Generally speaking, most parts are probably available for Cadillac's. However, some parts may not be, I waited for an accessory (splash guards) that was part of the original build order (but a dealer installed option) from the delivery date (early May 2007) until September 2007. This did not prevent the car from being used though.

tntmyth · February 2008

I bet it matters which Infiniti dealer you are working with. Some of the larger dealers maybe keep a large stock of parts.
I have read some forum posts that 2008 CTS owners had to wait to get parts. But its still a new vehicle. I would expect that as we get into the 2nd and 3rd model years, that it will be easy to get parts for the CTS after they have built up inventory.
A also am considering the CTS, but I am waiting for the 2009 model. I am waiting for any improvements, bluetooth, improved opaque sunroof shade, etc.
If I bought today, I am really liking the Black Raven exterior with Ebony interior and 18 inch wheels and the DI engine. I saw this exact combination this week in a parking lot. It really looked impressive. I also like the titanium interior to break up the totally black car. But I am flip flopping on the color. Can't decide.

sls002 · February 2008

There should be a parts depot somewhere in the US for Infiniti parts so that getting a part should be a matter of 2-3 days, not weeks.

lykourinou · February 2008

I hear you, that can be daunting to have such a reputible name plate not to have stock on parts. Escpecially when you are making payments, it can be frustating, good luck with the switch. The only thing though that I have heard about Cadillac service is that they do not have loaner cars available while they are fixing yours, I guess GM doesn't want to pay for that. But nontheless good luck.

lykourinou · February 2008

A also am considering the CTS, but I am waiting for the 2009 model.
Research the vehicle, there are 2 recalls that I know of, the rear end was locking up and there is something wrong with the power windows and sunroof.

sls002 · February 2008

My dealer does not have loaner cars, but they do have an agreement with a rental agency. Cadillac will pay for a rental if your Cadillac is under warranty and the repair job will take more than a day or so. My dealer does have a shuttle service that will take you somewhere nearby (not halfway across the state) and then pick you up when your car is ready.

sls002 · February 2008

There is a problem with a seal on the rear end that can leak. If the lub leaks out of the rear end, then it should not be a surprise :surprise: that the rear end gears wear out.

I have yet to get the recall for my 2007 SRX, but the rear end is not leaking yet as far as I know (no sign of lube on the garage floor).

bumpy · February 2008

Maybe, but taking your DTS in for service and getting a Pontiac G5 for the day isn't going to impress the customer much. You can bet that the Lexus dealer doesn't fob its customers into Corollas.

scwmcan · February 2008

Isn't the rear end recall only for the "old" CTS (2007? I didn't think it applied to the new one.

sls002 · February 2008

I got a Suburban actually.

sls002 · February 2008

Yes the recall is for 2007 and earlier models (back to 2005). A supplier of seals changed the seal without informing GM or getting approval and the new seals did not hold up.

rayainsw · February 2008

"Maybe, but taking your DTS in for service and getting a Pontiac G5 for the day isn't going to impress the customer much. You can bet that the Lexus dealer doesn't fob its customers into Corollas. "

Yet I do not think it is reasonable to
expect my Chevy dealer to loan me a
Corvette, when mine ( an '07 ) is in for warrantee service...

louiswei · February 2008

Wow, a Caddy dealer that doesn't have its own loaner cars? Looks like Caddy still has way to go before catching up to MB/BMW/Lexus and return to "the standard of the world".

Honestly, If I am driving a Caddy I would much rather to driver a Caddy loaner car than a Chevy Impala...

sls002 · February 2008

If you have a MB/BMW/Lexus that needs warranty work here, the nearest dealer is more than 300 miles away.

As far as I am concerned, if the car is only going to be in the shop for a day, getting a ride to work or home and then back is a reasonable solution. They would need a lot of loaners to give everyone one. I can see them giving out used cars to drive for the day, but then the car is not there should someone come in to buy it.

lemko · February 2008

Whenever I had my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS in for extended service, my dealer usually gave me a Cadillac loaner. I once had a new 2005 CTS for an entire weekend and I took it to Macungie. I usually got a DeVille. Heck, I wouldn't mind it if they gave me an XLR or Escalade just for once.

lykourinou · February 2008

Well like I said the Escalade, is the Standard of the World of SUVSHey Rocky,

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just would like to you to clarify a little of what you are saying about the Escalade being the world standard for SUV's. Granted weekly I would call it the king of SUV's until I hear a recall or see a bunch of reviews where people complain about the engine or tranny going bad. I know that all cars have problems, but the Escalade is a great looking truck which I simply adore. But the lack of fold flat 3rd row seats and intelligent key leave a taste in my mouth for a Japanese or German full size SUV.

I was also disapointed to see that that beautiful caddy still uses a live axle and a prehistoric SOC engine. I'm torn between that and the QX56. Plans are already underway for a redesign on the QX aside from the recent one on the 08. Per dealer.

lykourinou · February 2008

When Cadillac won the Dewar Trophy for "standard of the world", it meant that they were using interchangable parts to make Cadillac's, while the European cars were using custom made parts for each car.

There was only one Dewar Trophy for this category, and that Trophy is still Cadillac's. They are therefore still the "Standard of the World" and this topic should be terminated.

I have never heard of that, do you have a link to this info?

62vetteefp · February 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewar_Trophy

This was too easy.

Back in the teen's all those cars were hand built. Parts were made one at a time. So Cadillac put specs out and made sure parts were interchangable on the vehicle.

circlew · February 2008

However, BMW gives you equal or upgrade to your model for a loaner.

Regards,
OW

circlew · February 2008

Small world. It has grown since then. The old trophy does not apply. New standards are set every day and IMO, Cadillac is not near the top.

Regards,
OW

rayainsw · February 2008

I have read posts of 5 & 7 series drivers loaned a 3.

62vetteefp · February 2008

We all know the 3 is a much better car than the 5 or 7. It is just a bit smaller!! :P

sls002 · February 2008

What a particular dealer does about lending customers a car to drive while they are servicing your's will vary from dealer to dealer. One thing that you should understand is that there is risk in lending you a car to drive - if you have an accident your insurance may cover you, but since the car is owned by the dealer, they are at risk too. The other point is that if the service department is working on say about 50 vehicles over a two day period, 50 loaners (Cadillacs) will have a value of perhaps 1 million dollars (used). That is a lot of money to tie up in loaners.

bumpy · February 2008

I don't think it's unreasonable. I could understand the dealer giving you a Monte Carlo SS if they didn't *have* any Corvettes to loan out, but they should try to give you something reasonably equivalent to what you bring in.

Back when my dad had the E320, the MB dealer usually gave him an Intrepid loaner (the Dodge dealer was on the same lot), which I thought was kind of skeezy of them. There was one time, though, when he had the car in for the third time in two weeks he told them "No, I'll be taking the S-class today." And he did.

sls002 · February 2008

Well I think your point of view is extreme. But if the E320 was breaking down repeatedly, I certainly think that expecting "something" drive is not unreasonable. What would be "reasonable" depends on how the dealer (or salesman) values your business. If you have bought several new E-class cars in the past few years, then keeping you happy is probably worth something.

The issue here is how many people can a dealer keep happy at any point in time. How many "loaner" vehicles must a dealer keep in stock. At something like 100 grand per S-class, there really must be a limit.

By making rental vehicles available at a nominal rate, I think my dealer is doing something. The Suburban rental that I got cost Cadillac $20 per day.

cooterbfd · February 2008

Lou, the local MB dealer around here gives you a Corrola for a service loaner. How's that for a slap in the face. At least when my dad brings his Town Car in, they give him an MKZ (I know, not Caddy) My great uncle has his latest DTS for over a year, and they DO give loaner cars (although he has yet to bring it in for unscheduled service ) He is retired, and can afford to wait for the oil changes.

cooterbfd · February 2008

Here in RI, the OWNER of the vehicle can be made liable for an accident, even if the car is being borrowed by someone (be careful who you loan your car to here). There was a big hullabaloo over leased cars beacuse of that.

louiswei · February 2008

That's why the dealers ask for a prove of insurance and credit card just in case something happens.

louiswei · February 2008

I think MB dealers are the worst offenders on not supply same brand loaners.

As far as BMW and Lexus go I haven't heard anything yet on the dealers give out loaner cars that are not the same brand.

fintail · February 2008

The MB dealer here has a fleet of W203 C-class for loaners, I think. I know the local Lexus dealer has a fleet of ES, and the Acura dealer uses TSX, as they all have 'loaner' window banners.

Back in the late 90s when my dad impulse-bought a 35K Chrysler T&C and the transmission puked up after 6 months, he got an 85 Celebrity as a loaner. He was not pleased.

laurasdada · February 2008

Same here, Evil Wife's Lexus goes in: Lexus (ES, IS or RX) loaner. My Acura TL: Acura (TL, TSX) loaner. I keep asking for the loaner NSX, but everytime the person just before me got it!!! I've never had good timing...

I appreciated the lighter feel, slightly sharper feel of the TSX, but mor appreciate my TLs power!

sls002 · February 2008

My dealer has a shuttle service (more than one van) to take people to work while the oil change/lube/etc is done. Then they will pick you up to get the car at the end of the day or whenever. However, an oil change, lube and tire rotation at my dealer takes about an hour (less), so getting a vehicle to drive somewhere and then come back will also take about an hour. Waiting seems like the best option unless you come in early and then get a ride to work.

I will say this: if the dealers loaner policy is important, then this should be part of the deal when buying the new car. You need to have something in writing which will probably mean that the sales department will have to supply the car.

lykourinou · February 2008

Small world. It has grown since then. The old trophy does not apply. New standards are set every day and IMO, Cadillac is not near the top.

I was thinking the exact same thing, I love the Escalade I just wish that Infiniti builit it.

cooterbfd · February 2008

I was thinking the exact same thing, I love the Escalade I just wish that Infiniti builit it.

Why??? Hasn't Infinity had some problems with their Armada based QX 56?

aldw · February 2008

Exactly, Cadillac is still much closer to the German makes in product panache than Infiniti, even with missteps.

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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