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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    My SRX has everything that you want, but the size. I do like the HID lights. They light up both sides of the road so that you can see deer if they are looking to cross in front of you.

    I never used to like the SRX at first, but I do like it now. It is a pretty cool SUV. The HID is lovely, Nissan makes some pretty good HID as well I have seen the HID on the new CTS though and it does not look like the HID on other Cadillacs it is almost yellowish
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I think that's the color temperature of the bulbs. The lower temperature has less blue in it.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Not worth the cost over a Non Hybrid Tahoe. But if you're going to spend $50k plus on a full sized SUV then it is in your price range, and offers the new technology you crave.
  • lykourinoulykourinou Member Posts: 67
    I never said I wanted a hybrid..
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    No, you didn't. But considering the fact that you complained about the OHV engines as being old fashoned, I figured this 2 mode hybrid could catch your eye technologically, not to mention the fuel economy being far superior to anything in it's class.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    There's no "lower temperature" bulbs; xenon gas is xenon gas, period. If one looks yellower than another one, chalk that up to the placebo effect.
    Three different lights:
    1. Halogen (white/yellow)
    2. Xenon (white/blue)
    3. LED (white/blue).
    Most cars come equipped with halogen lamps. Some higher-end cars come with Xenon (same kind of gas in strobe light bulbs), and the highest-end, most advanced cars come with LED all-around (Most Cadillac and Lexus models).
    Since Honda is still in the stone age making cars with old, antiquidated 5-speed automatics and clunky, old SOHC powerplants that don't even have VVT phasing on the exhaust cam, we can expect Honda to add xenon headlamps to their lineup of cars around the 2050 model year. LED headlamps in Honda's have a year 2100 target date.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    I agree with you, lykourinou I also refuse to pay full price for outdated technology. Here's what you said:

    "Just talking to these guys in here helped me to realize, that GM wont' change. I refuse to pay full price for outdated technology."

    That means I have to scratch any Honda product off my shopping list. It's like the only engine they offer is a cheap, old SOHC V6 that has seen service since like the early nineties. This engine doesn't even offer VVT on the exhaust cam, for crying out loud! I think even Daewoo is now making engines more sophisticated than Honda.
    And what about Honda's ONLY automatic transmission? Yep! It's a clunky old five-speed unit that hasn't had a major upgrade in over 15 years! You know Honda is still offering ancient transmissions that even the Koreans were offering last century when the only transmission the car company has is a clunky, wheezy 5-speed auto.

    HONDA DRIVETRAINS DON'T BELONG IN CARS THEY BELONG IN THE SMITHSONIAN!

    I refuse to pay full price for outdated technology. I refuse to buy Honda.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    I don't know of anyone who thinks the OHV LS7 or LS3 is "old fashioned". Certainly not Porsche or Ferrari, who once again got their proverbial behinds handed to them at the 24-hr/LeMans endurance race by the OHV LS7 that poweres the C6-R...
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    I totally disagree with this. Sure, the HT4100 (4.1 L engine to which you refer) was a feeble engine (130 HP and around 200 ft/lb torque), but just look at the competition of the time: Acura Legend was 150 hp, BMW 535 had a whole two engine choices: Either the 2.7L "high efficiency" 120 horsepower (120!!!), or the 180 horsepower mill that was optional.

    So indeed the Cadillac drivetrain was competitive for its time.

    What the America-haters ("General Motors made nothing but junk during the 80's while BMW and Honda marched on with excellent vehicles...") fail to tell us are these depressing facts. And these facts are that BMW was hardly the "Ultimate Driving Machine", with putt-putt's that barely coughed and sputtered out 120 horsepower, and the Honda Legend -- priced $2,000 more than the 1986 Seville redesign -- had 40 ft/lbs less torque than the HT4100, meaning it was even slower than the 1986 Seville or eldorado.

    I am not kidding and this is not a Photoshop. This jalopy is a BMW 5-Series sedan from the 80's. Utterly embarrasing in its cheapness:

    image

    Downright pathetic. The vinyl seats just scream cheap! So much for the mid-80's GM cars being cheap and the imports being the ultimate drivin machine...
    In contrast, the next photo is the interior of the 1986 Cadillac ElDorado, the car the America-haters claim is no good. Notice the advanced digital plasma displays, power everything and Driver Info Console. Even though this specimen is sure to have over 200K miles on the odometer, it still looks good:

    image

    Car and Driver's 10-Best in 1986-1989. Costs over $2,000 more than the ElDorado, but still manages to look cheaper and less luxurious. Still prettier than the BMW by a long shot, though, and also less expensive by a long shot, as well....

    image

    Since the Caddy wasn't any slower than these other cars, and certainly more substantial than either (especially that eastern Europe-looking BMW), why wasn't the Caddy placed on the 10-Best list instead of the Acura?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    What is the 3rd car? It has the most lux interior by todays standards than the cad or BMW. Gotta tell you though the 5 series looks real cheap and teutonic by todays standards. The caddy is miles better but still has the odd looking dash styling of that time period, at least by todays standards.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Why is it that the import fanboys say that their Japanese hi-end imports have a back-up camera? I mean, Consumer Reports was making the $70,000 Lexus LS460 sound as advanced as a NASA prototype the way they were talking about the back-up camera feature on the Lexus. They, being import fanboys as well, say the same thing about these back-up cameras in Acura and Infiniti products, too. It's like a typical CR review will say, "If GM doesn't get around to offering this very expensive but very necessary back-up camera feature, they're going to be in more do-do than they are now. Quit ceding these technological marvels to Japan, GM!"

    OK:

    image
    image
    PANASONIC Back-Up Camera -- fits GMC 2000-2006 GMCYukon
    List Price: $89.99
    OUR PRICE: $79.99
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    The third car has to be the 1990 Mercedes Benz 190E. This turd both looks and stinks like a diesel. It's also powered like one, but it's not. It's a manual-shifted I4 engine inside a car that the America-haters actually thought was a better car than the 1986 Cadillac Seville:

    image

    WHAT A PATHETIC PIECE OF CRAP! And to think people actually shelled out like over $20 grand for this turd!!!
    Below is a true class act: Far more car for about the same amount of money:

    image
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Of course you're not being funny. I understand perfectly your desire to buy an Escalade and there's a good reason why it's outselling the Lexus, Acura and Infiniti SUV's combined. This is just one reason why the rich 'n famous are sending their $$$ downrange to their local Cadillac dealers:

    image

    Lexus looks OK, but still no match for the Cadillac despite the slightly higher MSRP. Notice the cheap assembly quality at the base of the glovebox where it meets the dashboard kickplate. The inconsistent padding between driver and passenger seating surfaces isn't looking too good, either. A higher resolution photo reveals even more cheapness and crappy quality:

    image

    As we can see, once again we're being told lies from the establishment.
    LEXUS/TOYOTA, FIX YOUR QUALITY ISSUES OR SUFFER THE SAME FATE AS THE YUGO!!!
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    OH, GREAT POSTS!!!

    BTW, I was being faceitious. I agree- there is nothing wrong with an OHV engine. I find it hillarious, and quite hypocritical of people who say OHV is outdated, yet it's OK for a pickup or the Corvette. I know that Caddy never used it, and this new 3.6 liter V-6 is drawing rave reviews, but the old 3800 Buick V-6 is a tried and true engine, and I'll be sad to see it go. I wish they could've done more with it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    The pic you post is of a low spec Euro model never sold in the US, with a non-stock steering wheel, almost never seen with a manual on this continent.

    Funny thing is the cheapo 4cyl W201 is probably worth more than that old Deville on the used car market, and certainly worth more than a 1986 Seville. A bustleback is worth more too.

    And of course, the W201 was never meant to be anything more than the lowest level of entry lux - in Europe it was usually too small to even be a taxi. Not a competitor to Caddy, nobody cross-shopped a Deville and a 190E. The period E-class and S-class are the cars that schooled the competition.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    I suspect that Caddy photo with its ridiculous seats is from when the car was new :P . That thin unappealing steering wheel looks like a creation of a 7 year old, and the dash looks like a version of the one on my mother's old Ciera that cost less than half the money back in the day - only with primitive digital displays that weren't exactly 100% reliable.

    I'd be interested to know the TRUE story behind that old BMW too.

    Pic #3 appears to be a Legend coupe from the early 90s. The seats are infinitely better looking, and I suspect it is a better drive.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The BMW interior didn't have much going for it, but at least the car was built and drove well. The Cadillac had an equally hideous interior, and awful build quality and handling. The Acura did have a nice interior, and superlative-for-the-80s ride and build quality. Sorry, but GM's premium marque became "Crapillac" for a reason.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    What is the 3rd car?

    First-gen ('86-'90) Acura Legend. In his zeal to whitewash Cadillac's shame, he forgot that the first Legend had as much horsepower as a full-sized Caddy and weighed about a thousand pounds less.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The yellow light is better for foggy conditions, and it used to be mandated in France but now it's only optional for fog lights.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Our Enclave has the back up camera as do other GM products.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd also add the Northstar V-8 to the list

    A V-12 Bimmer would actually be a nightmare and a man has well documented the problems with his BMW 750: http://my750.com/mystory.htm

    That list is also from a UK site and the British typically hate American cars though they really have no longer have any automotive industry of their own.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now that pmc4 brought back my nightmares of the '80's Caddy, I am cured. Despite having some good experiences with the marquee, I would think the irony is during the 80's, the Standard of the World was hardy the description for the top division of GM. Did market share slide for despite this so-called world standard???

    I feel free again because I am letting it go! No use crying over junk again.

    Let's look at 2008, shall we? Which manufacturer closely emulates Standard of the World today? I would venture only a few would think Cadillac in the present moment.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Did you ever notice that French cars use yellow bulbs? French ads for Peugeots, Renaults, and Citroens show the cars illuminated headlamps with an intense yellow glow. Is this madated by law in France?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    We were able to find a way to squeeze out 7,500 more.

    Declining STS and SRX production, perhaps? I suppose that killing those two off will make room for the CTS Coupe.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I have a 1989 Cadillac Brougham with over 157K miles on it. The car still looks and runs excellent. I bought it new, have taken excellent care of it, and never had to put much into it as far as major repairs. I also have a 1988 Buick Park Avenue that I drive just about every day. Aside from bad paint on the top surfaces, the car is still extremely reliable. So much for those awful '80s GM cars.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My ladyfriend had a Cadillac similar to the DeVille pictured at the bottom. Her car was a 1992 model in a nice dark red metallic with a red leather interior. I later bought a new 1994 DeVille in Carmine Red with the Parchment interior. Both were great cars with the 4.9 V-8.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Shoot, I love the 3800 engine. It is a good engine in my 1988 Park Avenue and a good engine in my girlfriend's 2005 LaCrosse. It's a very fuel-efficient engine which is very important in these days of high-cost fuel. Heck, I've been driving my old Park Ave just about every day and am enjoying the fuel savings and the still decent performance of this old-school mill. I sure will miss it.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If any car was THE car to own back in the 1980s, it was the W126 S-Class. I did look at a 1989 Mercedes-Benz 560 SEL, but it was WAY out of my price range at $73,990 - more than double that of the Cadillac Brougham. I still wouldn't mind having a low-mileage example. I heard the "Baby Benz" was a car to be avoided. Don't know how well the E-Class held up over time, but I still see a lot of the S-Classes.

    Even I can't defend the 1986 Seville. It was this car and the shrunken 1985 FWD C-body DeVille/Fleetwood and Eldorado that really made me fear for Cadillac's future. Thank God, GM was smart enough to keep building the Cadillac Brougham. I don't know what I'd be driving today if Cadillac back then was stupid enough to ditch the Brougham. I guess I'd have settled for a Lincoln Town Car or a Chrysler Fifth Avenue in lieu of a Caddy.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I am glad you had good service from your Cadillacs.

    Here is a list of World Class companies who have won Best Engine categories.

    Guess which country's auto manufacturers are not on the list?

    link title

    Perhaps the new CTS V-6 will show in 2008. Perhaps not.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Not a Caddy on it. Go figure.


    Well that's a relief! Doesn't help the other issues over the years that helped drive down sales loss to the competition, though.

    Things may change but for now, we are where we are. The Escalade is the benchmark for a Suburban tank, IMHO. The CTS is a great start.

    Ya gotta start somewhere! Now, if they can refine the CTS further (STS/SRX goes bye-bye as I have read) drop the pick-up, add a CUV, fortify the DTS, enliven the XLR and add a 1-series-class entry candidate with real world class (read youth here) appeal and performance for all of them, we will see a very different organization.

    In the meantime, look to the competition to continually change the playing field. Cadillac either continues to make massive change or goes the way of Oldsmobubble. Remember them??

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    The W126 was grossly expensive...but there seems to have been a lot of money floating around in the 80s, as every example brought over was sold with little hassle. It is this car from the import competition that really hurt Caddy - I believe some of Caddy's higher line buyers jumped ship and never came back (now they buy Lexus). They traded a little of the cush for amazing engineering and world beating handling for a car of the size. It occupied the top of the mass market, something Caddy might have had 20+ years before. I too wouldn't mind having a nice low mileage one...it's tempting to ditch the car payment and just find a mint 560SEL.

    The 190E was kind of a yuppie leasemobile of the time - it wasn't meant to be a real luxury competitor. The 35 year old professional of 1986 was never going to touch a Seville anyway. The 190 wasn't a horrible car, but not as overdone as some others. The old E-class is a very solid car. Every day out here I see at least a couple early E-class and W126. These are cars that can look very decent even at 300K+ miles.

    What was production of the Brougham after 1987 or so?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Taylor spoke with staff reporter Jamie LaReau about his vision for Cadillac's future.

    How has CTS production changed since we spoke at the Detroit auto show?

    We were able to find a way to squeeze out 7,500 more. We're up in the capacity, and we're able to address the number-one dealer issue. They're very frustrated because they know they can sell way more than they have. We weren't sure where the ceiling was on this. I'm not in a big hurry to run this thing up and then find out we're sitting on too many cars.

    What's the CTS mix like?

    We're running a richer mix on the engine than we originally forecasted. Transaction prices are better than we expected. Dealer margins in real dollars are higher, so the customers are really looking at this vehicle positioning with the imports.

    One fun fact is the red paint. We typically run 5 to 8 percent red. But we did all ads in red, and so we are running 18 to 20 percent red now.


    What about a car sized and priced under the CTS, a baby Cadillac?

    I was first kind of consistent that we didn't need one — it would need to be $25,000 to $30,000, which is a pretty cheap Cadillac. But as the CTS moves up to be $30,000 to $40,000, you are creating space for a smaller Cadillac. So it is starting to be emerging on the list as more viable to me.


    And Lutz thumped him upside the head!!
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    So, are you saying if your engine isn't on the list it's worth S&%T??? I doubt the Slant-6 or SBC or 3800 would make that list (or ever would), but that doesn't make those engines slouches. Driven normally, and maintained properly, ANY of these engines will satisfy and live a long healthy life. But run the piss out of 'em and what would you rather replace, a V-10 Beemer or a 350 Chevy??? (And don't feed us and lines of crap that the Beemer would never break down, 'cause it's BS)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So, are you saying if your engine isn't on the list it's worth S&%T???


    No, I'm just suggesting Caddy is not the World Standard, that's all. Don't feed me that line "because it's made in the U.S. it's the Gold Standard". Not anymore.

    They are still building Lexus dealers, don't you know?

    Regards,
    OW
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Since Honda is still in the stone age making cars with old, antiquidated 5-speed automatics and clunky, old SOHC powerplants that don't even have VVT phasing on the exhaust cam, we can expect Honda to add xenon headlamps to their lineup of cars around the 2050 model year. LED headlamps in Honda's have a year 2100 target date.

    What does this have to do with the "title" of this message board?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That list is also from a UK site and the British typically hate American cars though they really have no longer have any automotive industry of their own.

    Yes, and the new G-8 is a thoroughbred GM. In the memorable words of Crocodile Dundee: "Now, that's a car".

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Actually it is. Holden has been part of GM since time immemorial. Australia also is not part of the U.K. and Holden has a pretty good reputation down under.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here's a link that depicts many Caddy problems. Did the Lemon Law get invented because of Caddy?

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    it's tempting to ditch the car payment and just find a mint 560SEL

    Would a 420SEL have less needy maintenance, or do you have to drop down to the 6-cylinder for that?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    From YOUR linked website:

    http://www.carcomplaints.com/worst_vehicles.shtml

    Not a Caddy on it. Go figure.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Maybe slightly less, but I don't think it is a significant amount anymore. I think the 420 might have existed mostly for a lower V8 price point. The 6cyl cars are easier to care for, but they are not too big for such a heavy car, so you do lose some performance. The economy gain is also not much, I think the V8 cars actually get better mileage on the highway.

    I'd love to find a mint late 560SEL in diamond blue with creme interior and stock chrome wheels. I'd really be tempted.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Wow, I'm surprised to see a Honda Civic on there.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The 560SEL I looked at back in the day was this nice dark green color. Anybody remember the name of it?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Hey Fintail, pardon the topic shift, but wanted to make sure you saw this:

    FINS! exhibition at the AACA Museum (Straightline)

    Well, even if you missed the blog about it, you probably knew about it anyway.

    More on topic, there's a nod to Harley Earl and the 1948 Cadillac there.

    Of course, there's only one car inside the Edmunds offices, and that's a 49 Caddy Fleetwood. (that link opens up a video tour of the office, so mind your speakers).
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Ahhhhhhh! Hershey!!!!! There is a nice Italian restaurant about 1.5 miles from the Museum on Rt 39.....Also, Kreider Farms has a KILLER homemade oatmeal ala mode (Yes, with french vanilla ICE CREAM in it)......but I Digress... :shades:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    And they aren't heading that way? That's all we read about. A US version of the BLS, an STS/DTS replacement, the V series.

    I think Olds is the LAST place you'll find Caddy heading
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "That thin unappealing steering wheel looks like a creation of a 7 year old, and the dash looks like a version of the one on my mother's old Ciera that cost less than half the money back in the day - only with primitive digital displays that weren't exactly 100% reliable.
    I'd be interested to know the TRUE story behind that old BMW too.
    Pic #3 appears to be a Legend coupe from the early 90s. The seats are infinitely better looking, and I suspect it is a better drive."


    Why not just say, "OK, PMC , your pictures do indicate that maybe we're wrong. Maybe we are being too easily fooled into the establishment when the establishment tells us that GM cars of the 80's were crap. Maybe we should start thinking for ourselves and stop listening to automotive journalists when they incorrectly critisize 1980's GM.
    "After all, you proved that the very car the automotive journalists espoused (80's BMW; 80's Mercedes Benz) really was crap with manual roll-up windows, cheap seating surfaces, a ride as comfortable as a metropolitan transit bus and the smell of fuel eminating from an obnoxiously loud OHC engie that got like 120 horsepower.
    "In fact, what were we thinking? In retrospect, I can't figure out for the life of me what made us actually like those annoying, primitive, nasty little cars with their manual transmissions sticking out of the floorboards..."

    Here's a mid-80's Mercedes Benz E-Class, showing WWII-era switchgear, wood inserts that look like plywood, and no air conditioning, stereo (the stereo shown is aftermarket) and optional swithches (probably for options like lights, turn signals, fuel gauge, etc). This was the car the automotive community said was better than 1980's Cadillacs:

    image

    Here's the interior that the automobile journalists said was less luxurious and lower in quality than the Mercedes Benz shown above. Please note that Crack Cocaine was an epidemic in this country at about the time these journalists were making these claims:

    image
    image

    The 1944 Er, 1988 Mercedes Benz ES 300 shown above cost $45,000.
    The 1988 Cadillac shown above cost $32,000.

    ...Only now are we beginning to see that the automobile journalist of the time had a hidden agenda...

    .
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Acura Legend from 1991. A good car, but the establishment at that time was saying this was the best car. And saying the Cadillac was the worst car.
    Bear in mind that the crack cocaine epidemic in this country was still plaguing our people. Not only that, but crystal methamphetamine was now on the rise:

    image

    Cadillac ElDorado interior, circa 1990:

    image
    image

    I wasn't going to show this because it's an embarrasmant to the import fanboys, but I have to because I did show the Caddy interior:

    image

    Acura Legend, 1991. Notice the puffy, Michelin man-inspired seatig surfaces. Not nearly as clean as the Cadillac, either.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Yeesh. Given a choice between the (ahem) World War II-era switchgear and that Liberace-inspired bordello on wheels, I'm selling some organs to finance the extra $12,000. And time has proven that the 1988 300E was a vastly better car than whatever that Cadillac-badged monstrosity is.

    Of course, a scant two years later some tarted-up Toyota would come along and obliterate them both.

    image
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