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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I have owned a 1989 Cadillac Brougham since it was new. Is your car the "regular" Brougham like my car or the fancier d' Elegance? Surprisingly, some parts can still be found at Cadillac dealers, but are getting scarce and they are expensive. It's tough getting them from junkyards these days because of the high price of scrap. A lot of older cars are being crushed. A good place to start would be to join a club such as the Cadillac-LaSalle Club. They've been around since 1958 and are a good place to network to find parts and maintenance and repair tips. Annual dues are $50 for a first-class membership. I have a friend who probably knows more about Broughams of that vintage than the guys who engineered them. He would probably know best where you can still find that stuff. If you shoot me an email, I can get a hold of him and try to get you two in touch. Good news is that the filler panels between the taillights and the rear fenders are being made aftermarket. There are two kinds - fiberglass and plastic. I've been told the plastic fillers are better. Another good thing is that a lot of parts from 1980-89 are common. There are some subtle detail changes on some parts, but they will fit in a pinch.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Caddy owners don't want the "latest and the greatest" technology, just a good, old fashoned luxury car:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/06/nada-luxury-segment-has-the-worst-depreciatio- n/
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    So, sell your Caddy and get a 3 year old S-Class or 7 Series. Way more refined experience, savings on depreciation and decent resale if you keep it 4 more years.

    You can't get that with a new Caddy...or even a used one!....IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    There is a sports car (or a preproduction model) available with LI batteries (same as laptop batteries) that has a range of 200 or so miles on a charge. Cost is out of range at $100,000 though. The cost is what GM is working on.
    see it here
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Whatever money you'd be "saving" on those used Mercedes and BMWs will quickly be eaten up in atrocious repair and maintenance costs. Buy one out of warranty and you might as well be playing Russian Roulette with five bullets in the cylinder.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Ahem...I drive Buicks, and lemko's right.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Caddy owners don't want the "latest and the greatest" technology, just a good, old fashoned luxury car.

    Hmmm. Back in the day, Cadillac built flashy, gadget-laden cars while Packard built the good old-fashioned luxury cars. We know how that turned out. :cry:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cadillac's are not cheap to maintain either. The computer controlled suspensions from the 90's are about $4000 for parts. Northstar engines or transmissions will run a few thousand to fix too. A ten year old Cadillac from the mid-ninties can cost $10,000 or so to keep running over a short period of time.

    The RWD Fleetwood with the pushrod engine is probably the best old Cadillac to have.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'd have to go out of my way to kill my 1988 Buick Park Avenue and my girlfriend's LaCrosse is still extremely reliable after all this time. Not once did she have to take it in for any unscheduled service. Dang, sometimes I think I should've go the Lucerne CXS instead. I'd probably would still have it in 2027 along with my 39 year-old Park Ave!

    When Better Cars Are Built, Buick Will Build Them!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The RWD Fleetwood with the pushrod engine is probably the best old Cadillac to have.

    You got that right! My 1989 Cadillac Brougham is still with me after all these years!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    What I was getting at was that the RWD Fleetwood is not difficult/expensive to work on. The engine is easy to get at, while the FWD northstar engine/transmission has to be taken out of the car to work on for a lot of things. This is expensive.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Hmmm. Back in the day, Cadillac built flashy, gadget-laden cars while Packard built the good old-fashioned luxury cars. We know how that turned out.

    Yeah, Studebaker DRAGGED them to the grave kicking and screaming.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "So, sell your Caddy and get a 3 year old S-Class or 7 Series. Way more refined experience, savings on depreciation and decent resale if you keep it 4 more years.
    You can't get that with a new Caddy...or even a used one!....IMO."


    But unlike the Bimmer or Benz, cooterbfd wouldn't need an on-board mechanic for his Caddy, either...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, the Caddy has way more quality and durability than those German yachts!

    I agree completely! I just would rather drive than lounge! It's worth the extra cash to fix it every week for the pure driving enjoyment.

    Some get everything from Cadillac and some don't!

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Yes, the Caddy has way more quality and durability than those German yachts!

    I agree completely!

    Then, I guess you would say that Caddy is on Par w/ the Germans, just in a different way.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I was being facetious! The German cars happen to make sour mash out of any caddy if you like spirited driving and precision before th '08 CTS came along. It's just the way it is right now.

    If the Germans made rolling sofas and GM made the best engineered cars in the world....

    I like to drive not lounge. The CTS would be the only Caddy I would consider at this time...after they get over the "Art and Science" kick. I do not like the edges.

    But they seem to be getting the point now that the bleeding is at full force.

    Check out Michigan housing values these days. It didn't have to be that way. I am SURE I am not the only defector to the competition due to the blatant disregard to impending changes that other global competitors implemented long ago. Expecting big changes without really changing anything is the definition of....? Now change is fully apparent and I applaud it.

    Just my humble opinion.

    Regards,
    OW

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Actually, the only German luxury cars that aren't entirely luxury cruisers would be the entry-level ones (335i, A4, etc) or M-Series/AMG variants. The S-Class and 5 and 7-Series sedans are no more spirited in their dynamics than a Lucerne or DeVille.
    Better engines and higher quality (but poorer reliability) makes the German high-end stand out from the Buick or DeVille.
    So indeed, german luxury cars are "rolling sofas."
    Read Car and Driver's review of the 6-Series coupe if you don't believe me.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Dollar-for dollar, Cadillac is light years ahead of the Germans, cooterbfd. This explains why Cadillac is rated higher than any German luxury car according to Consumer Reports. Cadillac also has earned more prestigious awards than any German (or Japanese) luxury marque in recent memory.
    I don't see how you can think Cadillac is on par with the Germans. Cadillac is like the P-51 Mustang used during WWII. Get used to it.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,054
    Hmmm. Back in the day, Cadillac built flashy, gadget-laden cars while Packard built the good old-fashioned luxury cars. We know how that turned out.

    Yeah, Studebaker DRAGGED them to the grave kicking and screaming.


    I own a Studebaker...and it always cracks me up when I hear/read that Studebaker killed Packard.

    Packard had serious quality issues in '55 and '56 that the whole industry knew about. A good read is James Ward's book "The Death of the Packard Motor Car Co.", available at most libraries. Yes, Studebaker misrepresented its breakeven point during buyout negotiations, which is terrible, but Packard was down to selling only 27,000 cars in '54, BEFORE its quality problems started. Their '56 sales were down 67% from '55 (Stude's were down 33%). In Feb. '56 Packard only built 200 cars. By '56, Packard was the bigger loser--that's why they went away and Stude stayed. In '57, with an unchanged Stude line, the corporate loss was reduced 75% without Packard. And Stude had a mild hit in the '57 Scotsman and a very big hit in the '59 Lark, all when Nance and Edsel were failing (Nance was the last president of Packard and went to Edsel).

    Bill
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Only if you drove/owned one for any length of time can you compare them.

    Let us know.

    The only reason the Germans lost the air war is because they did not have enough planes compared to the US. The Me109 was the best there was at the time.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Now please compare sales percent trends globally to see who is winning the car wars! It will be interesting to see in a down year who has the most market sahre of the high end global manufacturers.

    Regards,
    OW
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502


    Replying to: circlew (Mar 07, 2008 10:52 pm)
    Actually, the only German luxury cars that aren't entirely luxury cruisers would be the entry-level ones (335i, A4, etc) or M-Series/AMG variants. The S-Class and 5 and 7-Series sedans are no more spirited in their dynamics than a Lucerne or DeVille.


    If you really believe that then you have obviously never driven a 5 series or a 7 series.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Yes, the Caddy has way more quality and durability than those German yachts!

    I agree completely! I just would rather drive than lounge! It's worth the extra cash to fix it every week for the pure driving enjoyment.

    Some get everything from Cadillac and some don't!


    Lucky for you Caddy makes models for you that are no longer the old US mainstream lounge riders. The CTS and the STS offer the same ride and handling characteristics of the Geman imports.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I liked the last generation STS. When I attended the 2005 NYAS I sat in an STS then a 7 series. Somehow the 7 felt magical and the Caddy quite ordinary.

    Besides, the STS is history anyway. The CTS is the only car with performance potential that might carry on. Who knows? They might discontinue just as I am warming to the fact that they are finally making a decent model.

    I'll take a Corvette fo the weekend, though.

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    I don't have to drive the premium German cars; I let others do the driving for me. For example, here's what C/D says about the BMW 6 and 7-Series:
    The 6-Series:
    "2007 BMW 650i - An Above Average Driving Machine, But Not Really the Ultimate."
    "Not as impressive as its skidpad performance is the way the 650i feels when driven hard. The clutch and the shifter are Jenny Craig-lite, almost too much so for a few of our test drivers, and as perfectly matched to the smooth 4.8-liter V-8 as golden sponge cake is to light, creamy filling. But when the road starts turning, things get flabby."
    "A 53/47 front-to-rear weight distribution is less balanced than most Bavarians parked in our lot, and despite its high lateral limits, the 650i's chassis isn't as talkative as others from BMW. Pushed past 8/10ths on a rough road, the 650i is scary. Suspension movements get frantic, and the slightly numb steering refuses to tell the driver exactly what the front tires are doing to keep things planted and pointed down the road."
    "Driven fast, the 650i feels every fraction of its 73-inch width and 190-inch length. A hope and a prayer might do the trick, but the most reassuring way to handle this coupe in the twisties is to dial the speedo down a few notches, and that's not something we like to say or do."
    The 7-Series:
    "Which brings us to the 750i's downside... It is so adept at quickly covering ground... and so quiet, smooth, and compliant doing so that the experience has become more numbing than involving. Whereas the previous-generation 7 was the big-sedan epitome of creating a driver-to-machine relationship, the current-generation car... is proficient at taking the driver to new performance levels without the driver's really feeling as if he were part of the process. ...But it seems that a BMW should drive more like a BMW and not like an extremely capable, extremely quick Lexus."
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    ...every car has it's issues.

    Edmunds take on the 7:

    Even though it tends toward the esoteric, the current BMW 7 Series has proven quite popular, largely because of its superb driving experience. Here BMW has applied its arsenal of technology to great advantage, as features like self-stiffening antiroll bars, self-leveling air springs and adaptive shock absorbers work together to keep the big sedan stable when driven hard. In addition, all 7s have BMW's trademark steering feel, such that the driver feels an unquantifiable connection to the car.


    Here is another from "The Truth About Cars"

    The 750i is a bit like a newly retired boxer; it's not quite as sharp as it was, but it's still a Hell of a lot sharper than anyone but world heavyweight contenders. BMW needs to recognize what the brand's supposed to be and build a Club Sport 7-Series– if only to prove a point. (Remember: ultimate driving came first, luxury clocked-in later.) The Boys from Bavaria should lower the 7's suspension, fatten-up those wheels, slot in a six-speed manual, lose the iDrive, ditch the sound deadening, amp-up the exhaust and away we go.

    That is why BMW teamed with Alpina to create the B7 which will toast everything in it's class...again, if you like driving.

    No car is perfect just better in a particular category.

    In the end, you buy what you like. As far as the standard for luxury, it is really in your own mind.

    Regards,
    OW

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Does the new CTS come in any colors other than red and silver? Those seem to be the only two that ever get tested. I was kinda hoping they'd get the AWD version.

    As for the BMW, it's not bad either but those wheels look better on the S2000 CR. :P
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    What's an interesting observation is that the STS was never meant to compete with the 7-Series/S-Class, yet auto journalists still make the comparison.
    The CTS was never meant to compete with premium sedans like the 5-Series or Infiniti M45, but auto jpurnalists are still comparing the two.
    In fact, Car and Driver recently compared the 2008 CTS to the 2008 Infiniti M45, a car in a higher class. Regardless of price, guess which car Car and Driver picked? THe more expensive Infiniti?
    Nope! The Cadillac CTS! Only a brand that can rightly be called the "Standard of the World" can do that...
    Car and Driver: 2008 Standard of the World beats the 2008 Infiniti M45.

    .
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    EVEN WITH PICTURES CLEARLY SHOWING A GORGEOUS RED CADILLAC AND AN CHEAP, UGLY TAXI YOU STILL PREFER THE TAXI! WHY???

    What's interesting to note is the Forum Moderator posted the pic of that Caddy not just a regular Joe on this message board.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    No Thanks. I'll take the Cadillac.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I just like to drive. The CTS is getting better but still needs to grow (read refine)!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Your very welcome. You can have it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    If they keep slipping and don't turn it around then maybe caddy or someone else will take the lead but it hasn't happened yet.

    I think Infiniti will get there first; they're pretty close already. It should be interesting to see what they do for the M50, and what if anything Cadillac does for a CTS V8.
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    Just go drive a 535i sometime and then maybe you will understand a little better."

    You might have made the same comment about the 328i or be even closer to the point with the 1-Series.

    As with all BMW products, their most economical is always also the funnest to drive, but the 7-Series is the best car.

    I don't care what you and circlew says, driving dynamics suitable for a small, agile, fun-to-drive car with "Stunning chassis, superb reflexes, telepathic steering" and the other goofy adjectives Car and Driver magazine throws at small cars that are nimble and economical do not make the luxury sport sedan. This is why the CTS is beating the BMW 3-Series; the world is tired of small, nimble, fun-to-drive cars dressed in goofy adjectives by the press -- cars that don't cut it when real sport and real luxury and substance is brought into the equation.

    Fall in love with silly journalism like, "The BMW has steering that's so precise, the steering rack seems wrapped in fine silk imported from China" all you want, but in the end, you'll be paying off a $499 lease on a car that's considered basic transportation for taxi fleets elsewhere on the globe.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I fell in love with the drive. I love paying extra for the top of the line everything!

    Regards,
    OW
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    THere's no way an E-Class (read: European taxi, which is this):

    image

    Can touch this:

    image
  • pmc4pmc4 Member Posts: 198
    "I fell in love with the drive. I love paying extra for the top of the line everything!"

    Actually it's not BMW that's "top of the line", it's Honda and the Civic si that's top of the line. And witht he Civic, you don't have to pay extra!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    There's also no E-class sold in the spec of that (eight year old?) taxi on this continent...

    And there are a lot more E-class in that Caddy spec than the Caddy itself desired by buyers in every corner of the world...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I like BMW over Honda. It's World Class Everything. Sorry to keep bursting your bubble. My GM brainwashing days are over and the Caddy second rate cars were a big part of my reality.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I can count on my Cadillacs and Buicks to get me to work. When I ask my BIL where his S-Class is, the reply is often, "It's in the shop." Heck, why spend the money on an E-Class for a taxi when you can get a Checker instead?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    The W220 S-class are the equivalent of those self-destruct Caddys from the 80s. Really, around the year 2000 for MB is equivalent to the 80s for Caddy - a few good cars, and a lot of problems.

    I don't get the taxi bashing, is it any worse than airport lots full of rental DTS? And even CTS existing in some small fleets? I don't think so. And from what I have read, the taxi drivers want the strippo E-class more than any other ride.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I don't get the taxi bashing, is it any worse than airport lots full of rental DTS? And even CTS existing in some small fleets? I don't think so

    I think that is exactly his point, if I'm reading right. Caddy gets KILLED here for that type of sale, yet it seems ok for MB to do it in the EU.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I think that could be because the cars MB and others put in those European fleets are a lot different from most retail units - really only sharing a bodyshell and in some cases powertrain. From my experience, the Caddy fleet cars are very similar to the retail models sitting on the lot. One method adds some prestige to the working fleet more than it takes away from the retail lineup. Another reason might be that the Euro competition never suffered the loss of cachet experienced by Caddy, so working fleet cars don't damage the image, they only show the basic cars as being able to take abuse, while at the same time being offered in refined trim.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Most times they don't even share the drive lines with the regular retail MB and BMW models. The taxi/commercial MB and BMW models are almost always equipped with the smallest diesel engine available. But seriously what do you expect German businesses and governments to use in Germany fleet edition Malibu classics? They are going to use the vehicles built by the companies based in their area so that means BMWs, Mercs and some VWs for the smaller vehicles.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I don't think that most of the Caddys on the lot are strippers like their fleet counterparts. However, the 1-2 yr old Caddys on the lot are just that; program cars returned from the rental lot, and that hurts both image and resale value.

    Brit, I would EXPECT the EU to use their branded cars, just as we see plenty of Crown Vic's and Impala's doing the dirty work here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Exactly. And another important part is that in NA, MB and BMW have an image and a marketing direction of luxury and status and nothing else, while in the EU they are much more mainstream, with offerings as you mention - small diesels, cloth interiors, little gadgetry - the W210 could be had with a small 4 and plastic wheel covers. How the average American sees an E-class isn't the same as the average German.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yup you could get roll up windows an a cloth interior in the S-class for a very long time in europe. You could get S320s up until what 1999 or 2001 in the US I think and the S430 up until 2006.Now Merc has gone even more top end for the S-Class as the lowest trim for the US Market is the S500 2matic. The S350 and S320 CDI are offered in the UK still but no more 4 cylinder.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Heck, you could get a manual transmission in the S-class up through 1991, in a car with plastic wheelcovers, cloth interior, and less than posh trim, but not on this continent of course. It has been moving upmarket here for some time as you mention, no more 6cyl lowline cars. I don't know about a 4cyl S-class, but there is still a 4cyl E in the EU. All of these lowline cars sharing the same structure with V8 barges, hyper AMG models, and V12 plutocrat luxobarges. That's why the marque can get away with plain taxis and fleet specials - a competency still exists, even though the problems.
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