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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cadillac will continue to lead the charge with very affordable lux vehicles

    Is that Cadillac's new mission? To provide the trappings of luxury at affordable prices? The Hyundai Genesis is better positioned to do that, I think.


    ??? Caddy has always had affordable lux vehicles. I do not see that as changed. The CTS is more affordable than the smaller 3 series and much more than the 5 series. Just the way the mission has always been.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Who can say if we will be able to get past this "economy issue"? We're in for a harder ride than some at the White House may claim, I fear. Changing your image to affordable luxury (I dunno if the loaded CTS I saw that stickered for nearly 50K can be considered affordable...) does not seem like the best solution to me. Affordable lux is not a 'standard of the world' image. The best seems to sell no matter what - I don't see my local MB and BMW dealers having clearance sales on leftover S and 7ers.

    Do you have anything to back up the BRX or XLR claim? What will be the competition for the BRX, seeing as CTS competition is so tough to define?
    You're not exactly an objective source either :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Consistency is the key to success - you hit the nail on the head. This is also why Camcords and their smaller relatives do so well - their names are nearly all older than I am. How many names have the domestic competition used for vehicles in those respective positions since? Caddy would gain a lot of cred if it could simply nail down some names. Domestic makers as a whole would be well advised to finally get the names down straight.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You're not exactly an objective source either

    Perhaps not but my info is better than any car mag and rumor mongers :surprise:

    Tyr and point out where I have been wrong with my data :P

    Perhaps my term "affordable lux" is wrong. How about more for the money than the competition? CTS is as good as the competition but does not get the higher bucks because of a lack of brand equity?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Haven't you claimed to have been out of the industry for a few years?

    Where does the information on these future models come from?

    More for the money, exactly, this is more positive, and Caddy has indeed pissed away so much brand equity. There is room to capitalize on this, but the work is far from done, even with the much improved new CTS. I guess I can look at so many Caddys from the past 25-30 years, and I still want to see greatness before I believe it.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    62veteefp: Article after article discusses the merits of the Malibu being better than the Accord/Camry.

    Both Car and Driver and Consumer Reports placed it below the Camry and Accord (although both still praised it highly). Also, read Patrick Bedard's rather eye-opening editorial on the Malibu in the newest issue of Car and Driver. He puts the hype into perspective.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Aside from the Escalade, I doubt that anyone could name a Cadillac model, or when shown the model, explain what it is supposed to represent (i.e., what unique qualities it brings to the market) or what vehicles it competes against.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Also, read Patrick Bedard's rather eye-opening editorial on the Malibu in the newest issue of Car and Driver. He puts the hype into perspective

    Read it. Really said nothing except that GM has had vehicles that have gotten high praise in the past and they did not suceed. Very true and could happen again.

    As far as CR and C&D, I said article after article discussed the merits of Malibu being better. I did not say every article said Malibu was better. The preponderance of articles do have the Malibu higher than the Accord/Malibu and I guess we could list them all but I would rather not. Lets just say Malibu is a very good car and is doing very well.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    reference Steve's post

    Has Cadillac ever really been a world class car? Before World War Two (WWII) my Cadillac history book does not show any "export" models. After WWII there is an export sedan listed as being in production from 1949 through 1960. Sales were about 400 per year until the last couple of years when they dropped off. Obviously some standard Cadillac models might also have been exported, but my guess is that only a few hundred Cadillacs were sold outside of the North American market annually. After WWII the European industry was more or less bombed out, so the US automobile industry was a defacto "world class standard". In the short run the US automobile industry was helped by not having to rebuild. The European industry, because they had to rebuild, could design new stuff.

    Before WWII, Cadillac had competition in the North American market. I don't think Cadillac was really the best America had to offer. Early Cadillacs were mid-priced cars. In the Thirties, the V16 Cadillacs were the best Cadillac had to offer and perhaps were not matched by anything that Pierce, Packard or Lincoln had, but very few of the V16's were sold.

    I think there is a consensus here that Cadillac has not been the world class standard since the 1960's. During the 60's very few Cadillac were exported, and most of them were probably used at US Embassies.

    So, I conclude that if Cadillac was ever "world class", it must have been the V16's that did it. However, I don't think building another V16 will return Cadillac to a world class status.

    I think for Cadillac to become a world class standard, Cadillac's will have to sell in sizable numbers outside of the North American market. At the very least they will have to sell in the European market. Why anyone in Europe would want a Cadillac instead of a Mercedes, BMW or Audi is not clear to me. Of course the converse of this question is also true: why anyone in the US would want a Mercedes, BMW or Audi is not clear to me with the extra costs of owning them and the lack of service available (the nearest dealers to me are >300 miles away).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I would not say that either Mercedes or BMW are consistent in their offerings either. Take for example the 50's 300SL. This was a sports car. By the end of the 60's, the SL was more of a coupe. It is true that Mercedes has offered a consistent mid-range sedan for a long time. However, Cadillac's mid-range sedan, the deVille has been in production for 50 years, and while the current name is DTS, the deVille was preceded by the series 60 models that go back to the Thirties.

    BMW has been consistent with the 3, 5 and 7-series models, but they bring the 6-series into production for a short time and drop it, only to bring it back again.

    I don't see that the XLR is worth much to Cadillac. It is basically a Corvette. If Cadillac had really built the Evoq, then they might have had something. The sigma platform was not designed to include the Evoq though.

    Finally, Cadillac's success in the sixties is probably was led to their demise. With too many people driving Cadillac's, and with imports available, people looking for a car to make a statement with were choosing something else. Cadillac's problems with engines in the 80's did not help either.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM could start designing and building all of their vehicles, including Cadillac, to sell in the world market place. Then perhaps GM will survive, and Cadillac will become a world class vehicle. If I were to choose one make that is the current world class standard, it would be Mercedes. For someone in say Africa or South America, a Mercedes is probably as easy to maintain as anything.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Slightly off topic (forgive me)...you said you had a DTS Performance...what year and what city/hwy mpg do you get???

    Can you do this while attempting to maintain Cadillac as the Standard of the World, compared to MB and BMW, as the topic suggests??????????... ;) :surprise: :blush:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM could start designing and building all of their vehicles, including Cadillac, to sell in the world market place

    That is one thing Lutz brought to GM. They are truly becoming world wide products. Of course not all products will be sold worldwide.

    Identical Enclaves and LaCrosses will be sold in China and NA but not anywhere else. Mostly because China has the Buick history. The Lucerne replacement may also be sold there but I am not sure.

    All Cadillac models will be sold world wide.

    Pontiac is NA only and will remain that way BUT some models will be sold elsewhere under different nameplates. The G8 is a good example. Of course the next G6 replacement will be either engineered as RWD in Austrailia or FWD in Germany. The small RWD pontiac will also be engineered in Austrailia but again only the Pontiac nameplate will be sold in NA. There will not be much more to Pontiac.

    Saturn is shared with Opel and only sold in NA.

    Saab is world wide.

    Chevrolet will also be world wide but only certain models correct for certain markets will be shared.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OMG, finally some hits the nail into the wood! Remeber ElDorado, Fleetwood????

    XLR??????? WTF? Come on, GM changes names like a baby changes diapers. There is no brand loyalty!

    The Escalade was introduced in 1999 as a rebadged Tahoe. What else is new?

    A standard has a base of reference. Caddy lost that.

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    It's a 2007 model and I get about 19-25 cty/hwy. Black Raven finish with Ebony leather interior.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Heck, we finally agree on something. I like the old names a lot better than the alphabet soup names used today. I love names like Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance rather than DTS. Of course, everybody has gone down this path and Lincoln seems to be the last to follow. Everybody knew what an Acura Legend was but the RL name in unmemorable.

    I guess those alphanumeric names seem more "sophisticated" to today's sensibilities and those old long drawn out names seem quaint.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I guess those alphanumeric names seem more "sophisticated" to today's sensibilities and those old long drawn out names seem quaint.

    yep, quaint and out of date. It's a new world and tech is in. How many high end products have names today? I can think of a couple like iPod and iPhone but not many others. I cannot think of any high end names except Porsche and Lambo's in the car world.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Corvette, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Malibu, Impala, Road Runner, Coupe DeVille, El Dorado, Fleetwood, Mustang.

    Might be out of date but these are some of MY standard terms for REAL U.S. cars. They are only out of date because they were not supported...oh,wait, the Corvette and Mustang were and guess what?? They sell because they are the best in their class since they WERE supported.

    There is enough tech in a 'Vette to make it world class which is a car that has roots dated back to the 1950's. How quaint is that? No Caddy does this, don't you agree????

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well Cadillac has been marketing the FWD STS since the mid-ninties in Europe. But it did not sell. Saying that Cadillac will be marketed world wide is all well and good, BUT that does not mean it will sell.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Names are all well and good, BUT the car under the name tag is equally important: the Impala was a big RWD car and the mid-size FWD is not an Impala; the Eldorado of the fifties was a nice RWD convertible. The FWD Eldo of the late sixties was an overweight mess by the mid-seventies.

    The Corvette has only gotten better though, although the XLR has not done it any real good.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    Thanks.....
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The original RWD Eldorado ran from 1953-1966. The first-generation FWD car came out in 1967 and lasted through 1970. I thought the first generation FWD Eldo was a pretty nice car. I actually prefer the later 1969-70 models with the exposed headlamps.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    At the time, both the FWD Toronado and Eldorado were all new cars, the first with FWD in decades. But looking back from where we are toay, I don't think that the FWD Eldorado was a better car than the RWD convertibles. A different car yes, but not better.

    I think that for Cadillac to regain a world wide recognition of being a "good" car, Cadillac will need to design cars that "work" in other markets besides the North American market. The trick will be to design something that "works" in North America if it works elsewhere.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Corvette, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Malibu, Impala, Road Runner, Coupe DeVille, El Dorado, Fleetwood, Mustang.

    AAAHHH!!!! Names soothing the palate like a fine wine!!!

    However, there is more to the car than just a name. When you look back at some of those nameplates I think that a new car HAS to evoke memories of the old cars, or they are doomed to fail. Take a look at the GTO. Excellent performing car, decent value, yet NOBODY liked it. Why??? Perception was that it was an Austrailian car w/ a "nametag" slapped on it (which it was).

    Now, I disagree about the Impala, as in the late '50's till it was discontinued, it was the "All American Family Car" whether in coupe, conv. or sedan. So, even as a FWD sedan, thats fine w/ me, as it can evoke memories of what it was. On the other hand, the Impala SS is where I would have a problem. It should be a RWD coupe or conv. only.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    That being said, a U.S.-spec diesel-powered CTS Coupe isn't out of the question. Because of Cadillac's price point, Taylor says that Cadillac would be the "natural spot" to launch GM's line of passenger car diesel engines. The diesel option would cost a few thousand more than a gas version, but Cadillac buyers are better positioned to absorb the additional cost. But Taylor also indicated that Cadillac would monitor Mercedes-Benz's success with its BlueTEC line of vehicles before it made the jump into the diesel luxury segment.

    As for the future of the STS/DTS, Taylor confirmed that Cadillac is working on consolidating the two. The new car will benefit from CTS-esque styling and will cater to a younger crowd. As far as size, the new car will rival the BMW 7-series, but will be priced like a 5-series. The new sedan will use a rear-wheel drive setup — with all-wheel drive a likely option — but Taylor failed to mention when we might see the new vehicle on the road.

    We also asked Taylor about the future of Cadillac's SUVs. It's no secret that the Escalade is one of the most popular SUVs on the market, but the upcoming CAFE regulations mean that it can't continue on unchanged. Cadillac has acknowledged this fact, but is still searching for the best solution. However, Taylor hinted that the brand could be considering a diesel version of the Escalade. The move to a diesel Escalade seems to make sense, as GM could use the diesel powerplants from its line of pickup trucks, and it would net better fuel economy.

    But overall, Cadillac's range of SUVs will likely be shrinking in the next few years. Taylor says the Provoq concept is an accurate depiction of the future of Cadillac SUVs, and that the brand will be launching a vehicle to compete with the likes of the BMW X3 and Infiniti EX 35.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm not sure, but I think Cadillac was also the first for LED taillamps as well. Of course these lights are going to be fierociously expensive to replace if they get broken. I remember being able to go to K-Mart to replace a sealed-beam bulb for $4 for a cheap unit to $7 for a halogen unit. I guess those days are long gone.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I guess those days are long gone.

    Along w/ the days of getting filters, plugs, PCV valves, wires etc. from them. :cry:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The last Cadillac on which I changed my own oil on was my 1994 DeVille. It was actually quite easy as the filter on the 4.9 V-8 is on the left rear of the engine and could be easily accessed from above. The plug required a new rubber grommet every oil change. I bought a bagful of them from the Cadillac dealer.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The plug required a new rubber grommet every oil change.

    Rubber? :surprise: :sick:
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Rubber?

    Hey, gotta practice safe oil changes when you plug the hole :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
  • lmpracetechlmpracetech Member Posts: 24
    Can GM make Cadillac the standard of the world Again?

    I hope not...
    They are throwing out that CTS Coupe, which is pretty cool... But really, how hard is it to keep everything the same and cut out 2 doors.
    Way to go design team!
  • bandit10bandit10 Member Posts: 28
    Don't forget that GM is going to make CORVETTE a dealership on that name only. Yes when you someone wants to look at a new Corvette they will have to go too the Corvette dealership. I read it one of my car mags. and their looking for the $100,000 price tag on the new Vettes. It could happen by 2010.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Actually, that makes sense...the only dealer I've ever seen where the 'Vettes don't get lost in the ambiguous starter GM's is at Kerbeck in AC, NJ. I was there 2 weeks ago and at least 40 of them jammed their parking lot...as well as another 30 inside the show room.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Don't forget that GM is going to make CORVETTE a dealership on that name only. Yes when you someone wants to look at a new Corvette they will have to go too the Corvette dealership. I read it one of my car mags.
    And I read somewhere else the Clintons are aliens.

    and their looking for the $100,000 price tag on the new Vettes. It could happen by 2010. not base. but yea on the top of the line versions
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    That's just a bad idea all around, Cadillac should be the one with the best performance vehicles above all other GM brands, and the very idea not having Cadillac be a sports car builder back in 1953 was, and still is, plain idiotic.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    If Cadillac had the marketing for the Corvette it would have been a luxury sports car and would have been much more expensive. I suspect that it would have failed.

    On the otherhand, in the current market place, Cadillac probably does need some sort of sports car for image purposes. However, a clone of the Corvette does not seem like quite the right image to me. I think that if Cadillac could do something with the basic Camaro platform and design a sports car using that platform as the basis, then they might have something.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Maybe they could do something like the Allante again, but do it right this time.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Isn't that what the XLR was? But yeah, do it right. And issue loud proclamations against whitewall tires and landau bars.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Thats exactly what the XLR was.

    Standard retractable hardtop Check
    Swanky interior with lots of dead trees Check
    Optional Supercharged Engine Check
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Overpriced Check...
    Interior not quite swanky enough for above mentioned entry of admission Check

    Still eyeing used XLRs though...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,095
    Whenever I think of the XLR I have the vision in my head of Clarkson (yeah I know, not exactly an unbiased mouth) driving one around a desert track, and hating it.

    But perhaps a used bargain, they seem to be depreciating even worse than the high end SLs....and wait til those get the facelift. Nothing kills MB value like a new model.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    In order to cut cost, General Motors will merge the rear-wheel drive Zeta and Sigma platforms, a new report finds. The Zeta platform currently underpins the Pontiac G8 and the upcoming Chevrolet Camaro, while the Sigma platform is exclusively used for the Cadillac brand (CTS, SRX and STS).

    According to Motor Trend, the first car to bow on the merged platform will be the 2011 Cadillac STS/DTS replacement. Following that car's launch, the new platform will underpin several other models.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    After a test drive this past weekend in the base G8, I can say this is a solid platform but I would prefer the sport suspension. The V-6 exhaust note was very raspy but the acoustics at cruise speed was whisper-quiet and no rattles, squeaks or noises to be heard. Steering was a little numb but acceptable compare to the past Pontiac Dinosaurs. Brakes were good but could use the meat of the GT. I'll try that one soon.

    Not bad but still can be improved IMO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    No surprise there; GM can't afford to have two separate platforms that do exactly the same thing. It also confirms what I suspected when the DOHC V8 was killed: that Cadillac is going to be a 300C with a better interior and not a true luxury car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Exactly. No US car is a true luxury car..let alone any GM.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    From what I have read the Cadillacs will use the basic floorpan architecture and cowl but use specific aluminum suspension pieces. It will have a different type suspension than the non Cadillacs.
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    Without a full product setup like the Toyota/Lexus combo to compete with the Germans, no US manufacturer at this point has the product breadth and depth from the top to the bottom to really stand out in the North American marketplace, even though the capacity to do so is there. GM's canceling of the DOHC Ultra V-8 shows more lack of willpower sadly than any technical issues.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM's canceling of the DOHC Ultra V-8 shows more lack of willpower sadly than any technical issues.

    Certainly not lack of willpower. GM does not pay any gaz guzzler fines and has decided not ever to. Most all those V8 vehicles in the lux segments pay CAFE fines and are happy to do it. MB spent $30 million in fines in 2006. I know they (bmw/MB) have said they will use new technology to increase mpg but it will take a lot too almost double their vehicles mileage. This is assuming that most of their cars will have to get over 36 mpg to meet CAFE. Of course their are their diesels but the conversation here is about GM not building a premium gas V8.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/31/nhtsa-releases-06-cafe-fines-daimler-chrysler- - -takes-cake/

    GM has decided that with the big jump in CAFE they cannot afford to develop a new engine platform that will either not be able to be used in a few years or take the fines. I would think they would be better off developing a premium diesel.

    I guess the big question is will congress increase the fines on those who really cross the line with fines year after year? On one hand you could say go ahead and fine the vehicles and let the customers pay the fines (which is what most in government do now when they buy their lux vehicles and they certaqinly do not want their BMW's taken away). Or get really serious about it and make the fine so high that few can afford to pay it. Again I doubt that will happen because that would effect those in power.

    So in the end there are just too many unknowns out there. GM will utilize the 3.6L platform and use forced induction and hybrid technology to increase power and gas mileage. And hopefully get a diesel.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The obvious solution is an electric drive with motor generator which GM proposed with the Volt concept car. I think this is the future at GM if they can make it work.
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