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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?



  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Cadillac will continue to lead the charge with very affordable lux vehicles

    Is that Cadillac's new mission? To provide the trappings of luxury at affordable prices? The Hyundai Genesis is better positioned to do that, I think.

    ??? Caddy has always had affordable lux vehicles. I do not see that as changed. The CTS is more affordable than the smaller 3 series and much more than the 5 series. Just the way the mission has always been.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,943
    Who can say if we will be able to get past this "economy issue"? We're in for a harder ride than some at the White House may claim, I fear. Changing your image to affordable luxury (I dunno if the loaded CTS I saw that stickered for nearly 50K can be considered affordable...) does not seem like the best solution to me. Affordable lux is not a 'standard of the world' image. The best seems to sell no matter what - I don't see my local MB and BMW dealers having clearance sales on leftover S and 7ers.

    Do you have anything to back up the BRX or XLR claim? What will be the competition for the BRX, seeing as CTS competition is so tough to define?
    You're not exactly an objective source either :P
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,943
    Consistency is the key to success - you hit the nail on the head. This is also why Camcords and their smaller relatives do so well - their names are nearly all older than I am. How many names have the domestic competition used for vehicles in those respective positions since? Caddy would gain a lot of cred if it could simply nail down some names. Domestic makers as a whole would be well advised to finally get the names down straight.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    You're not exactly an objective source either

    Perhaps not but my info is better than any car mag and rumor mongers :surprise:

    Tyr and point out where I have been wrong with my data :P

    Perhaps my term "affordable lux" is wrong. How about more for the money than the competition? CTS is as good as the competition but does not get the higher bucks because of a lack of brand equity?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 32,943
    Haven't you claimed to have been out of the industry for a few years?

    Where does the information on these future models come from?

    More for the money, exactly, this is more positive, and Caddy has indeed pissed away so much brand equity. There is room to capitalize on this, but the work is far from done, even with the much improved new CTS. I guess I can look at so many Caddys from the past 25-30 years, and I still want to see greatness before I believe it.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    62veteefp: Article after article discusses the merits of the Malibu being better than the Accord/Camry.

    Both Car and Driver and Consumer Reports placed it below the Camry and Accord (although both still praised it highly). Also, read Patrick Bedard's rather eye-opening editorial on the Malibu in the newest issue of Car and Driver. He puts the hype into perspective.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    Aside from the Escalade, I doubt that anyone could name a Cadillac model, or when shown the model, explain what it is supposed to represent (i.e., what unique qualities it brings to the market) or what vehicles it competes against.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Also, read Patrick Bedard's rather eye-opening editorial on the Malibu in the newest issue of Car and Driver. He puts the hype into perspective

    Read it. Really said nothing except that GM has had vehicles that have gotten high praise in the past and they did not suceed. Very true and could happen again.

    As far as CR and C&D, I said article after article discussed the merits of Malibu being better. I did not say every article said Malibu was better. The preponderance of articles do have the Malibu higher than the Accord/Malibu and I guess we could list them all but I would rather not. Lets just say Malibu is a very good car and is doing very well.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    reference Steve's post

    Has Cadillac ever really been a world class car? Before World War Two (WWII) my Cadillac history book does not show any "export" models. After WWII there is an export sedan listed as being in production from 1949 through 1960. Sales were about 400 per year until the last couple of years when they dropped off. Obviously some standard Cadillac models might also have been exported, but my guess is that only a few hundred Cadillacs were sold outside of the North American market annually. After WWII the European industry was more or less bombed out, so the US automobile industry was a defacto "world class standard". In the short run the US automobile industry was helped by not having to rebuild. The European industry, because they had to rebuild, could design new stuff.

    Before WWII, Cadillac had competition in the North American market. I don't think Cadillac was really the best America had to offer. Early Cadillacs were mid-priced cars. In the Thirties, the V16 Cadillacs were the best Cadillac had to offer and perhaps were not matched by anything that Pierce, Packard or Lincoln had, but very few of the V16's were sold.

    I think there is a consensus here that Cadillac has not been the world class standard since the 1960's. During the 60's very few Cadillac were exported, and most of them were probably used at US Embassies.

    So, I conclude that if Cadillac was ever "world class", it must have been the V16's that did it. However, I don't think building another V16 will return Cadillac to a world class status.

    I think for Cadillac to become a world class standard, Cadillac's will have to sell in sizable numbers outside of the North American market. At the very least they will have to sell in the European market. Why anyone in Europe would want a Cadillac instead of a Mercedes, BMW or Audi is not clear to me. Of course the converse of this question is also true: why anyone in the US would want a Mercedes, BMW or Audi is not clear to me with the extra costs of owning them and the lack of service available (the nearest dealers to me are >300 miles away).
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    I would not say that either Mercedes or BMW are consistent in their offerings either. Take for example the 50's 300SL. This was a sports car. By the end of the 60's, the SL was more of a coupe. It is true that Mercedes has offered a consistent mid-range sedan for a long time. However, Cadillac's mid-range sedan, the deVille has been in production for 50 years, and while the current name is DTS, the deVille was preceded by the series 60 models that go back to the Thirties.

    BMW has been consistent with the 3, 5 and 7-series models, but they bring the 6-series into production for a short time and drop it, only to bring it back again.

    I don't see that the XLR is worth much to Cadillac. It is basically a Corvette. If Cadillac had really built the Evoq, then they might have had something. The sigma platform was not designed to include the Evoq though.

    Finally, Cadillac's success in the sixties is probably was led to their demise. With too many people driving Cadillac's, and with imports available, people looking for a car to make a statement with were choosing something else. Cadillac's problems with engines in the 80's did not help either.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    GM could start designing and building all of their vehicles, including Cadillac, to sell in the world market place. Then perhaps GM will survive, and Cadillac will become a world class vehicle. If I were to choose one make that is the current world class standard, it would be Mercedes. For someone in say Africa or South America, a Mercedes is probably as easy to maintain as anything.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,661
    Slightly off topic (forgive me) said you had a DTS Performance...what year and what city/hwy mpg do you get???

    Can you do this while attempting to maintain Cadillac as the Standard of the World, compared to MB and BMW, as the topic suggests??????????... ;) :surprise: :blush:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    GM could start designing and building all of their vehicles, including Cadillac, to sell in the world market place

    That is one thing Lutz brought to GM. They are truly becoming world wide products. Of course not all products will be sold worldwide.

    Identical Enclaves and LaCrosses will be sold in China and NA but not anywhere else. Mostly because China has the Buick history. The Lucerne replacement may also be sold there but I am not sure.

    All Cadillac models will be sold world wide.

    Pontiac is NA only and will remain that way BUT some models will be sold elsewhere under different nameplates. The G8 is a good example. Of course the next G6 replacement will be either engineered as RWD in Austrailia or FWD in Germany. The small RWD pontiac will also be engineered in Austrailia but again only the Pontiac nameplate will be sold in NA. There will not be much more to Pontiac.

    Saturn is shared with Opel and only sold in NA.

    Saab is world wide.

    Chevrolet will also be world wide but only certain models correct for certain markets will be shared.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,262
    OMG, finally some hits the nail into the wood! Remeber ElDorado, Fleetwood????

    XLR??????? WTF? Come on, GM changes names like a baby changes diapers. There is no brand loyalty!

    The Escalade was introduced in 1999 as a rebadged Tahoe. What else is new?

    A standard has a base of reference. Caddy lost that.

  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,077
    It's a 2007 model and I get about 19-25 cty/hwy. Black Raven finish with Ebony leather interior.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,077
    Heck, we finally agree on something. I like the old names a lot better than the alphabet soup names used today. I love names like Fleetwood Brougham d'Elegance rather than DTS. Of course, everybody has gone down this path and Lincoln seems to be the last to follow. Everybody knew what an Acura Legend was but the RL name in unmemorable.

    I guess those alphanumeric names seem more "sophisticated" to today's sensibilities and those old long drawn out names seem quaint.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    I guess those alphanumeric names seem more "sophisticated" to today's sensibilities and those old long drawn out names seem quaint.

    yep, quaint and out of date. It's a new world and tech is in. How many high end products have names today? I can think of a couple like iPod and iPhone but not many others. I cannot think of any high end names except Porsche and Lambo's in the car world.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,262
    Corvette, Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Malibu, Impala, Road Runner, Coupe DeVille, El Dorado, Fleetwood, Mustang.

    Might be out of date but these are some of MY standard terms for REAL U.S. cars. They are only out of date because they were not supported...oh,wait, the Corvette and Mustang were and guess what?? They sell because they are the best in their class since they WERE supported.

    There is enough tech in a 'Vette to make it world class which is a car that has roots dated back to the 1950's. How quaint is that? No Caddy does this, don't you agree????

  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Well Cadillac has been marketing the FWD STS since the mid-ninties in Europe. But it did not sell. Saying that Cadillac will be marketed world wide is all well and good, BUT that does not mean it will sell.
  • sls002sls002 Posts: 2,788
    Names are all well and good, BUT the car under the name tag is equally important: the Impala was a big RWD car and the mid-size FWD is not an Impala; the Eldorado of the fifties was a nice RWD convertible. The FWD Eldo of the late sixties was an overweight mess by the mid-seventies.

    The Corvette has only gotten better though, although the XLR has not done it any real good.
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