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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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Comments

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...as they have a strong presence in China. Pontiac looks more vulnerable and Hummer and Saab have absolutely no reason to exist.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The obvious thing would be to supply the Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers with chinese Buicks and Australian Pontiacs. Pricing them high enough would soon bankrupt the dealers, leaving Chevy/Cadillac.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Buick's doing pretty decent in China, and believe it or not, so is Cadillac. Stroll around in Beijing or Shanghai and you'll see Escalades everywhere. Then again so is Chrysler 300. Interestingly, no Lincoln is seen there (then again, who cares).

    marsha7, you got a real good point. The thing is cars cost a lot more than furnitures, so we tend to whine more about the $$$ we lose on the way, unless youre talking about those $20k sofa and beds from Italy :)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    By Brian Moody
    June 30, 2008

    Our Long Term Cadillac CTS is well worth the $46,000 as equipped sticker
    price. It's fun to drive, has plenty of cool gadgets not to mention it
    is a really attractive car. Looks aren't everything but I can't stand
    having something that everyone else has, that's why I like the CTS. I
    find my self looking over my shoulder or out the window just to get a
    glimpse. The pulled back headlights, and bulging fenders give it a tough
    look. I like the Audi A6 or Infiniti M35 for about the same money - I'll
    pass on the "me too" 5-series, especially in black or silver.

    Think the CTS is too expensive? It's not. These days to get a really
    nice car you've got to spend $30,000 plus, to get something special
    you've got to spend more than $40,000. Am I wrong?

    Go to: http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/3060


    At least Edmunds thinks the CTS is worthy of it's price, a step toward retaining the standard of the world?
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    G35 which will be G37 in Q3 blows away the Caddy price. No contest to me.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    G35 which will be G37 in Q3 blows away the Caddy price. No contest to me.


    Of course not to you.

    Anyway Edmunds compares the CTS in features and performance to the M45 which star at $44k.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I read some of the responses and owner are not happy with the options packages. In the CTS forum some owners are not happy with the options packages either.

    I think if one considers a well equipped CTS as a low priced 5-series alternative, then you get a lot of car for the money. As an entry level sports sedan, the CTS is perhaps too big to start with, and a bit too expensive to be a low priced entry in the sports sedan market. The CTS is a "Cadillac" sports sedan.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only Infiniti I liked was the Q45. The great thing about the Q is that it would be unlikely that you would encounter another one if you owned one, especially the last models. Funny that the Q never caught on when the Lexus LS did. I guess it was those stupid rocks and trees ads that hamstrung Infiniti out of the gate.

    As for today's Infinitis? They're just weird. I'd be more likely to buy an Audi than an Infiniti.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Seeing how psychotic gas prices have become, I'd have probably been better off getting a CTS versus the DTS. However, by the time I got a CTS up to the level of my DTS, I'd have spent $47K easily. Love that Passion Red, however! The CTS would make a nice car for my girlfriend if she ever wants to trade her LaCrosse.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The CTS would make a nice car for my girlfriend if she ever wants to trade her LaCrosse.

    Yes, but take a look at the next LaCrosse first. Probably all she needs and would love it.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't think that the difference in fuel consumption is enough to make much difference, the CTS may get about 2 MPG more. A hybrid of some sort would make a difference.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The next Lacrosse should offer plug in hybrid tecnology to make it worth considering.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The next Lacrosse should offer plug in hybrid tecnology to make it worth considering.

    That would be great! It would make it the first production vehicle in the world to offer it. Doubt that will happen. Plug ins are a few years away yet. I think Volt may be the first.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    the volt will be first around 2010. I think that plug in hybrids probably should all be designed as plug in hybrids and not add the technology to existing platforms. A lot depends on how successful GM is with the development of the batteries and cost.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    The usual debate on value. Is it just me or CTS prices is getting wayy up? Especially since most people would never consider the CTS as a value 5series, more like an alternative to the 3series.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Toyota should beat the Volt...GM is running out of cash real fast. Should push quality even lower at GM, IMO.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    If anyone thinks they're getting value with the CTS, I have a bridge to sell them!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    No thanks! I already own the Tacony-Palmyra, Ben Franklin, Betsy Ross, and Walt Whitman Bridges! I'll take that CTS, however!
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Not sure I agree. Aren't most of the Buicks sold sort of stripped or mid level cars. Not data to back it up, but my personal observation is that most Lucernes sold are stripped and certainly not the top of the line model. I feel that a Buick is more of an upscale Chevy than a cheap Cadillac. The Enclave appears to be an exception. Boy are those pricey.

    Cadillac is in a league of their own when compared with other GM makes, which is the way it should be. I too agree with the other posters that the CTS is viewed as a competitor to the 3 series as opposed to the 5 series in spite of GM efforts to the contrary. Do people actually cross shop a CTS and a BMW? I doubt it. I think they are more likely to cross shop a Lexus and an Infinity than BMW or Audi.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If toyota beats the Volt to production it will most likely be without the Li-ion batteries. The vehicle will be very heavy and have much less range. Of course it may also be cheaper.

    Then again I do not think many care who comes first as long as they see progress in alt fueled vehicles.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Buick's (and Oldsmobile's) top of the line models used to be very nice cars for the money. Not quite DeVille's, but not as expensive either. The Lucerne replaces both the top of the line Buick and the LeSabre, so at the low end is not much more than just big. But in my opinion, Cadillac's are not the cars they used to be, or should be, but are more like what the top end Buick's used to be.

    The first generation CTS was a 3-series type of car, while the STS was 5-series. Both were bigger than the comparable BMW. Now, the CTS seems to be inline to take over the STS spot when the STS/DTS move to a new platform and are combined into something else.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I am glad you did not claim ownership of the Brooklyn Bridge, as I have owned it, BOTH HALVES, for at least 20 years...

    Had you claimed ownership of said bridge, I would have filed an immediate eviction suit against you, and further sued for trespass...

    Please govern yourself accordingly...:):):):):):):)... :P ;) :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Now we're talking about bridges. :D

    When you say the CTS will probably more up to compete with 5 series, what makes you think its capable of doing so? The quality and interior appointments, both that matter a whole lot in that class, are still below par. And then there's prestige, an area even STS still cant compete yet, and now Cadillacs planning to move the CTS up the class? I doubt it.
    Besides, what will take the current CTS place then? Please dont say the BLS (or BTS???), the retrimmed Saab 9-3 definitely wont make the cut.

    Cadillac should learn from Infiniti, from a half-premium wannabe to a genuine premium sports cars. Start low and climb its way up. Learn what it can and cant do. Nissan-Infiniti did that and succeed. Also for heaven's sake be reasonable on pricing, an STS costing as much as an equivalent 5 series isnt gonna sell. Were Infinitis priced close to Lexus it wouldve faced its doom right now.

    Of course the doomed value of STS is the sole thing that gets my eyes on one. A mint 3 year old v6 is a sweet bargain at $25k. If I'm buying a new one, I'd spend my $50k somewhere else, like a much more luxurious lexus GS or Audi A6, which also retain their value much better btw.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Precisely the reason Caddy will NEVER be the top luxury make on the planet. Excellent post!

    Even I would look at a 3 year old STS for $20K...too low, you say? Wait awhile longer.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Not sure if your comments are directed at me:

    What I said was that the CTS might replace the STS, nowhere did I suggest that the STS is really a 5-series car. In fact it is not if the car magazines are right. I do think that the 2008 CTS may be as good as the STS V6. I do think that for the money the CTS is a bargain compared to 5-series V6.

    Cadillac is supposed to be working on a smaller RWD sedan that will replace the current B-series available in Europe. I think that it might have been better to terminate the STS and call the new CTS the STS. This would have left a hole where the CTS was, but the new CTS is not a 3-series anyway.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    as I see it, the top luxury car is Rolls Royce, before BMW.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I do think that the 2008 CTS may be as good as the STS V6. I do think that for the money the CTS is a bargain compared to 5-series V6.

    I agree with the 1st statement, but heres the thing with the latter:
    True the v6 CTS is darn cheap compared to 535i, but we cant forget that buyers considering 5series normally throw the word value out the window. In the realm of midsize luxury, Infniti's M and Acura RL are the value leaders.

    I think that it might have been better to terminate the STS and call the new CTS the STS. This would have left a hole where the CTS was, but the new CTS is not a 3-series anyway.

    Before doing that take a look at the competition. Take the M35 as an example, which btw is already considered somewhat lacking in the luxury appointments, yet still have better quality than CTS or even STS, both inside and out. Sit in one, examine the fit-finish, the interior materials, and do the same with CTS and STS. I bet you'll notice the difference right away.
    Unlike the 3series market, those are what sell in this market!!! Trying to catch up with the pack means the CTS needs upsizing, new interior materials, and other luxury appointments. The result? Higher price... when that happens the CTS wont be that much of a value anymore.

    I believe the CTS sell pretty well right now because its a domestic alternative to BMW 3series and other imports. Bigger than competition means a huge advantage over the cramped europeans. Plus, cheaper maintenance, and I admit its got good handling and soft ride. That might work on entry level market, but what about the midsize luxo?

    Just my 2 cents...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I have yet to see the new CTS, as my dealer has not had one in the showroom when my SRX has been in for service. However, looking at pictures of the interior on eBay for both the CTS and STS, I can see that the STS is different and probably better quality. The basic problem that I see is that the CTS is too big to compete with the 3-series in handling. But for those looking for a larger sport sedan at a lower price, the CTS is an excellent car. This is probably why it is a sales success.

    The 5-series offers a lot of refinements that the 3-series does not have, in performance and luxury. The STS does not have some of the handling refinements either and the magazines say the STS's interior materials are lower quality than the European's.

    My point has been that the STS and DTS will be combined into a new RWD model on a new platform and what this new car will be is somewhat unclear. It will be something like the G8 and perhaps there will be an STS that is an upgraded G8. The DTS will probably be a longer wheelbase G8.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Until Cadillac is made offshore, it will be sub-standard as luxury/quality proposition. Look at the G8/GTO vs. domestic Pontiacs.

    That's just the reality as I see. it.

    Regars,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think domestic GM interiors are not what they used to be. However, GM's idea of luxury in the 80's was overstuffed velour and I don't think that was good then, much less now. I think that GM interiors are getting better. Until the domestic market is profitable, GM probably will not be a class leader. Cadillac's interiors have been improved, the CTS and SRX interiors are now much nicer than the plastic they had to begin with. The leather in my SRX is not like the leather on my LaZboy though.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I stopped in and looked at a new CTS at the local dealer earlier this year - I think for the most part, it is competitive with the 3er and C interior, and light years ahead of the old CTS. This thing was loaded and stickered at 49K....that was the only tough part. Get it in a sweet lease deal and it could be doable...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    GM's idea of luxury in the 80's was overstuffed velour

    Yeah, and the funny thing is, the people to whom I give rides love those overstuffed velour seats in my 1988 Park Avenue and wish automakers still put them in cars.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh yeah, the same quality as my brother-in-law's Mercedes-Benz S430 that is PLAGUED with electrical, mechanical, and quality control gremlins.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Ask him if he wants to replace the Merc with a Denali with all new parts! Residual is quite low and he can get it for a steal. Just like all the Caddy's.

    2006 CTS 36K miles, Retail Value = $15,740.

    NICE!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, left out a few details like it's been in several major accidents, was a theft recovery, and used in few drug transactions. The previous owner also smoked cigars and took his St. Bernard dog everywhere with him in the CTS.

    I doubt any two year-old CTS that met my used car standards would be sold so cheaply.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Cars.com suggests the mid-range price for the 2006 CTS is about $22,000 retail. The C-class is about $25,000. I suspect that the C-class was higher to begin with.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Hello! Those are the kind of people that buy Caddies now a days!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Probably all dealer sales with low mileage from people that don't drive much and trade in every few years. Private party sales will be way lower on 2006.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I know in 06 you could still get lowline C230s for about 30K...these would easily be comparable with a base CTS.

    I've seen many 05 CTS-V for around 25K-ish.

    Maybe the old CTS wasn't the value it was touted to be...maybe the poorly chosen interior materials hurt something, too.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    He has an 8 year old car, a W220 from the first model year. MB fanatics even bash those things...it's like the 80s Caddy with the piece of crap 4100 or whatever engine was junk.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Really? I buy Cadillacs and so do a lot of other respectable people in my line of business. None of us are involved in criminal activities and we are treated with the utmost respect.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    JK...teasing you...my dad bought 2 of them. He was upstanding like you.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Your link is for a 2003 CTS, not the 2006, and the price tag is $17000, not $15,000. So what exactly is your point? :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Your link is for a 2003 CTS, not the 2006, and the price tag is $17000, not $15,000. So what exactly is your point?

    Misinformation to make his point that he hates GM and to convinc all others of the same. You can say anything on the net. Remember he said that he lives in his own reality :sick:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Well, I think his earlier posts suggested Cadillac's depreciate faster than Mercedes. I think that is probably true, but Mercedes does depreciate too. My premise is that one can look at all of the listed cars of interest on cars.com to see a range of prices for a particular model/year. One could look at the C-class listings for model year 2008 (about 160) and the CTS (over 500), then look at the median price tag (the cars in the middle of each list) and compare that with the 2005 models (about 1500 each).
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Why guess by looking at a random collection of vehicles when you can get data from the source that does it scientifically?

    https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx?sid=43

    CTS has same rating as most Mercedes.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    How about over different periods? I think most people keep their car for more than 2 years...I see stars, no numbers.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OOPS! My mistake.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, I made a mistake. I do not need to convince anyone regarding GM. I don't hate anyone or thing. Just think way better choices out there. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Here is another link but I was aware this time and checked. 65 2006 CTS are listed for $16K.

    This one has 38,564 miles and looks in great shape.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
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