Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

1…9798100102103…121

Comments

  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Thanks for the link, Steve.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I dont think we should compare Cadillac to Rolls or even Bentley, they live in totally different class afterall.

    Why dont we compare it to a more down to earth world class brands like Mercedes and BMW? Theyre both world standards too, in case anyone forgets ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Want another? :)

    This one is a bit more topical than Toyota/Subaru:

    "It's no secret among those who follow the auto industry that the products that are currently coming out of Detroit, and/or about to come out of Detroit, are among the best vehicles in their respective market segments."

    But there's that whole perception thing....

    Detroit's tough uphill 'perception' battle suffers another hit (Straightline)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    That is EXACTLY why the model is broken....costs are too high and the focus was on trucks. So, the truck company suffers in high energy cost environment not to mention labor costs.

    I'd rather by a 135I GM (think Malibu SS) than a Cobalt (or a CTS) that gets 30 MPG. You can raise the price if the quality is there.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, the same engine. Who knows? Oil changed every 3,000 miles religiously. Car was quick and they liked it a lot but the disappointments regarding nagging brake problems and the head gasket linger in my family. My Mom now owns a 2001 BPA and it has been bulletproof. Great FE also @ 22 mpg.

    I would have loved that car with a 425/425 V-8. Tune the suspension and you could have charged $40K back then! Waiting lists would have developed. The car rode fantastic.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nah, you would have deserved the salaries because you would have made MUCH better decisions.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I could,t have sais it better myself.

    it just reinforces that decades-old perception that Detroit just doesn't get it--and never will get it...

    Say what you will but I have a whole different feeing walking through a BMW dealer than a Caddy dealer. There is some real performing and luxurious steel on those floors.

    I know you can e-buy a car these days faster than buying a $5 gallon of milk but you can't replace the feeling of touching a fine automobile.

    GM doesn't have that anymore. Except with the Corvette! It's the only car brand that has been developed successfully from the last century by "The Biggest Car Company of ALL Time". :confuse:

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The problem is that GM can't charge BMW prices for cars even if they are just as good as the BMW. GM does not have the reputation to charge those prices. The G-body (Lucerne, DTS) is probably as good as the E-class Mercedes, but would anyone pay that price level for a Cadillac much less a Buick?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I don't see a problem with that. I don't want to pay E-Class prices for ANY car, including an E-Class.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    The only problem with that is most car enthusiasts see the FWD as a liability....and of course my local airport fleets aren't full of E-class. Those two factors do some harm.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The STS is RWD and probably better than the DTS. It is probably as good as the E-class or 5-series. Cadillac is trying to charge a high price for it, but, even though it is still cheaper than the Germans, the consensus is that the price tag is a bit too high.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The STS is RWD and probably better than the DTS. It is probably as good as the E-class or 5-series.

    Probably not with the 535i. The weight difference alone out classes the STS with respect to handling performance and the resale value crushes the STS. At the end of ownership, price difference is nil.

    Just MHO.

    Regards,
    OW
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    I can get an 06 STS-V for the price of a normal 06 E350. At that point it could be a good deal.

    The last time I saw an STS interior, which I admit was on an early model, I wasn't impressed, either. It seemed kind of plain, but not in that "hard luxury" old Germany way.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    When I said "Yuppies" I was really only referring to that age segment of those born in a certain time span, basically calling them a "generation"...no offense was intended in terms of their education, buying habits, attitudes, etc...just referring to a generation...sorry if I caused any emotional upset... :blush::cry:

    From the article: "They are certainly the best vehicles Detroit has ever built.

    Yet--as we all know--Detroit automakers have been fighting tough battle of "perception." Despite the overall goodness of what they are now selling, they have been battling a decades-old image problem of building crummy cars and trucks. Hey, this this a problem they created; no question about it."

    That is also the catch phrase "...best vehicles Detroit has ever built"...it was what was built over the last decades that causes skepticism of their products...the "image problem" of building crummy cars has been well earned...sure, some of the posters have kept their Big 3 creampuffs for decades, over 200K miles, and I am happy for you...

    But I believe it is undeniable that many folks, over the years, have been burned by a Big 3 car and have sought their transportation elsewhere and have apparently been happier with the import...

    Honda and Toy did not grow by accident, or people putting guns to the buyers to force them to buy Accords and Camrys...they grew because the buyers did not believe that American carmakers either built the right product or built the right product but poorly...

    Blame the union, blame GM management (V8-6-4???), blame no-caring dealers, but American buyers have deserted Big 3 products in droves, and they MUST have a reason, I doubt it was by reading Tarot cards...

    GM and Ford have a serious image problem, and the image is one of poor quality...they earned it and now must convince buyers that their product is not just competitive, but better...

    To tell me you are as good as Honda means Honda must be a good standard...whether I believe you or not is another story...

    I am one of those "Yuppies" (age designation) that, while I own Big 3 cars, still believe thatthey do not compare to my Hondas...

    I would LOVE to post here and tell you that the new Ford or Buick or Caddy I will buy "blew away my Hondas in quality"...

    I may not be a fan of the union (to put it mildly) but I want American cars to win...the big question is, do the American carmakers want to win on better quality or just snow us with an ad campaign that says "Buy American"...they must earn the business and I hope they do...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM is still the biggest auto manufacturer.

    The facts are that the Japanese knew that American's viewed Japanese products as "carnival trinkets". So Honda, Toyota and Nissan knew that to be successful they would have to build the best cars possible and make them reliable. What really made them successful was the oil crisis in the early 70's. I really can't understand your obsession with the 8-6-4 engine which really was not significant in the big picture. The 4100 was a much bigger problem which you seem not to have any understanding of at all.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The car magazines have commented that the STS's interior quality is lacking for the price level that the top performance model is in (over $60,000). Cadillac's interior quality has probably never been comparable to European luxury cars.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The 2006 550's appear to have lost 50% of their replacement cost.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,131
    Somehow those 550s depreciate like a domestic model dumped into rental fleets. I have seen 05 models for 30K.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    GM is still the biggest auto manufacturer.

    DETROIT - Toyota beat General Motors in worldwide sales in the first half of the year.

    Toyota Motor Corp. said Wednesday it sold 4.8 million vehicles between January and June, up 2 percent from the same period a year ago. General Motors Corp. says it sold 4.5 million vehicles in the same period, or about 300,000 less than Toyota.

    Not in sales anymore. Link below. The slide is only to grow.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I don't have an obsession with the V8-6-4, but it is simply one of many GM products that makes one wonder if they ever tested it before producing it...along with the Vega engine, their orginal V6 engines where they removed the connecting rod nut and simply screwed the bolt inot the cast iron of the connecting rod, which caused the connecting rods to come apart and literally destroy the engine/crankshaft from within...maybe they should have known that a hardened steel bolt would not stay "torqued" when screwed into soft cast iron...it is stupid things like that that makes one wonder what is happening in the GM design department...ancient past???...maybe, but it set off a string of (IMO) junky cars that lasted decades...now, all of a sudden, we are to take GM at their word that they make our cars carefully???...have you ever heard about the boy who cried "Wolf"...that is GM today...they must earn our trust since they betrayed and violated it so much in the past, and now we have competitive alternate products to buy (Honda/Toyota) whereas in the 70s and 80s we did not, and the Japanese luxury divisions really did not gain steam until the Mid-90s, so Caddy and Town Car had no competition for some time...not any more...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    so Caddy and Town Car had no competition for some time...not any more...

    and never again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The 8-6-4 was the same engine as the previous years engine. The basic problem with the 8-6-4 was that it required a lot of mantinence to keep the variable displacement working. The Mercedes 600 required a lot of mantinence to keep it working too. So again you seem obsessed.

    Never heard of the original V6, what exactly is an original V6?

    You have a valid point on the Vega engine. However, the Vega is not the whole of GM. The problem there was the aluminum used in the engine.

    The problems you are ranting about seem to be from the 70's and early 80's, about 30 years ago. What about Toyota's sludge problems? What about the 4 cylinder engines that Honda built that need new heads after warranty is over (my brother had one - $3000+ to fix).
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    8-6-4
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The Lincoln Town Car, Mercury Grand Marquis, and Ford Crown Victoria still have no competitors. Nobody else builds an affordable large body-on-frame car these days. To get something even remotely similar from the Europeans or Japanese, you'd have to spend over $60K+
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    While you are right, I am not sure that what is basic 50's design (body on frame) is something good.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    I don't think you can buy any body-on-frame cars except from ford. But it's kind of saying you can only buy instant cameras from polariod.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I thought Cadillac was well on its way back at one time, but time has proven that they really only have one great car that sells well, that's the CTS. Their Town Car (DTS) is still their main profit-monger and it's basically your father's Cadillac, the STS doesn't sell because you can't tell it from a CTS and nobody wants to pay twice the money for zero recognition over the base model.

    No, they are no where near becoming the standard again.....not at this time.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The Lincoln Town Car, Mercury Grand Marquis, and Ford Crown Victoria still have no competitors.

    I wonder why anyone would want to compete with these! Please!

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Well, if the DTS is my Pop's Cadillac, he did have some pretty hot cars back in the day. I just got back from vacation and took my DTS with me and I couldn't be happier with the car. It does have a lot of guts out there on the turnpike and interstate. I just love that muscular exhaust note and extremely smooth ride. If you don't watch it, you'll be doing over 100 mph and not even aware of it the ride and the shifting is so silky smooth!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I didn't say it was bad, Lemko, just not groundbreaking.... Of all the Cadillac models, the DTS is my personal favorite as well.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I was referring to the V6s they installed when they downsized all their boats into the midsize cars they turned into...

    I am not ignoring Toy sludge or Honda 4s...but the simple fact is that Toy and Hon have not had as many lemons or poorly designed products as our makers do...I would never call Toy/Hon perfect but, as I listen to people over the years, many more people have been burned by a Big 3 product than Toy or Hon...I believe that more folks have abandoned Big 3 and moved over to Toy/Hon than the other way around, and I believe that it is because we were force-fed a lot of junk from the Big 3 that COULD have, and SHOULD have been a product with more quality...but they thought they were invincible, and did not care, and never saw the imports as real competition, that is, until we started buying them in droves...

    Big 3 have a lot of convincing to do to make many of us come back...now that the imports have a rep for quality, the Big 3 have become on the defensive...now you must SHOW the buyer why your product is as good as the imports, which means you had better be good, or the buyer will leave and NEVER come back...they may be openminded now and give you a look, but if GM/Ford do not equal the supposed rep for quality of the imports, they will soon be history, or at least a lot smaller...

    Years ago, KMart was the big boy and Walmart was an upstart...now it is different...Kmarts are here and there, and Walmart is EVERYWHERE...GM and Ford may become the size that Toy and Hon were in the 80s and 90s, as their products are in lesser demand over time...

    Sorry if I misinterpret you, but I am not obsessed...I DO pay attention to the junk they sold us in the 70s and 80s, even tho it was some time ago, because that rep for junk, IMO, truly followed them into the 90s and possibly into the millenium, meaning that what they did to Americans twenty-plus years ago has a strong influence on what is happening to them now...of course, YMMV...
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'm confused. Are you talking about the downsized C-body cars that arrived in 1985 and the downsized B-body cars that arrived in 1986? If that's the case, oh believe me, I HATED them! I was in college at the time and was afraid I would have nothing to look forward to purchasing when I graduated. Thank God, GM kept the Chevrolet Caprice and the RWD Brougham around a while longer. I purchased a new 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic a few months after getting out of school.

    Ironically, I ended up with one of those FWD V-6 cars, (1988 Buick Park Avenue) and they're really not as bad as I thought they were 20 years ago. They're extremely reliable, quite durable, and deliver great fuel economy.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    It stands to reason that with GM's market share in the 70 and 80's, more people should have had some sort of problem with a GM product than with any other manufacturer. However, you have not proved that 90% of GM owners have had a bad experience. If the nonsense you keep posting were even half true, GM would have no customers left, which would have put them out of business a few years ago, if not decades ago. So I conclude that you are simply obsessed and are ranting with no real understanding of anything.

    The V6 you might be referring to is the 3800? The engine that started out as an aluminum V8 and became an iron V6, sold to Jeep and bought back from American Motors? Again do you really know anything?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Personally, I loved the downsized C-body cars, and I owned a bundle of 'em. From an 85 Park Avenue, 87 Olds 98 Regency, 88 Eighty Eight, which I had up until about 5 years ago when my son finally finished it off - they were quick, easy to drive and see out of, big inside, small outside, and good on gas. I thought they were perfect, and the only real downside to them was the Oldsmobuick ness they all had - not enough individuality between the makes. Even had an 89 Fleetwood, the Caddy version, and liked it. Funny how what I thought was GM's best effort got them the most demerits....
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I promise I am not obsessed...I have not stated that 90% of GM owners have had a bad experience, I really do not know how many have...never knew...but the growth of the imports, and simply having known folks over the last 20 years, who owned American products, tried imports, and said they will not buy Big 3 again...lots of folks, and, multiple that by all the folks I do not know but that now buy imports, and I see, what is to me, the obvious conclusion that there are lots of us who do not see the Big 3 as having the same quality as imports...you may certainly know different people than I do, but there are a lot of Hondas and Toys sold to people that will never buy GM again...it is that simple...

    I am certainly failing to remember the years of the poorly designed V6s, but my Dad was in the auto parts business at the time, and he was telling me about all the design defects that should have been found by a 1st year engineering student, yet GM was selling cars that had serious engine defects, from simply a metallurgical standpoint...since Dad is no longer with us, I cannot verify with him...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    As I stated before, the Japanese knew that they would have to build quality cars to sell them. What really got the Japanese cars selling was the first oil crisis, not the big three's quality problems.

    I will certainly agree that the big three's quality before 1990 was not as good as the Japanese imports. However, quality and reliability are two different things. The big three really started to improve quality after the 80's, and J. D. Power helped them to understand the problems that they had.

    GM has had a number of V6 engines. If your dad was an engineer and really qualified to design engines, why was he working in an auto parts store? On the other hand, the Buick V6 (or 3800) was a quick and dirt solution to an engine need in the early 60's. It was not a particularly well engineered V6, and was sold off to Jeep when Buick was able to replace it with better engines. In the late 70's some idiot decided that it was a quick way again to get a more fuel efficient engine into production. They did re-engineer the design a number of times to get it to the present day.

    Your Dad could have been talking about one of the truck engines too...

    You did say some posts back that "most of GM's vehicles were junk". If most were junk in the 70's and 80's, then by the mid 90's most of GM's customers would have been gone, leaving the company in bankruptcy. Since GM is not in bankruptcy, and is still selling more cars in the US than anyone else, I think your perception of how bad GM has been in the past is completely overblown. I think that a lot of the problems people have with their cars is a result of poor mantinence which is entirely due to the owner.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What really got the Japanese cars selling was the first oil crisis, not the big three's quality problems.

    Not my experience. Ford and Chevy rushed the Pinto and Vega to market. The Pintos were exploding and the Vegas looked nice, drove nice, rusted fast, and engines died very early. If those cars had been competitive then perhaps the reputation for junk would not have been as pronounced.

    I will certainly agree that the big three's quality before 1990 was not as good as the Japanese imports.

    So it wasn't the big 3's quality problems, yet the Japanese imports had better quality before 1990? Which side of the argument are you trying to promote?

    If your dad was an engineer and really qualified to design engines, why was he working in an auto parts store?

    If we all have to be working at the manufacturers' to be qualified to have knowledge, then perhaps we don't need these forums, as we don't all work for GM and Ford?!!!!! :P
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    If I implied that my Dad was an engineer, I must have been typing too fast...dad was not an engineer, just an auto parts man, mechanic, and a machinist, who knew his cars cold...I never meant to imply that he was an engineer, so if I said that, I apologize...but he was an expert on his cars, and we saw the junk soon after it was sold, as they only had 12 month, 12,000 mile warrantys...plus, selling parts meant we worked with a lot of local car dealers, GM/Ford/Chrysler, and they would often call us with the warranty work they had to perform, and it was amazing just how much junk was out there...can I give you numbers???...no...but it was there, as we were often seeing the stuff once out of warranty, only a year after it was sold new...
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    so what about the toyota sludge problem :P
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    again if everything was junk, why is GM still in business :P
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Trucks are decent and Corvette. Now Malibu and CTS is better. THe rest, second grade and sales show it.

    Let's put it this way, nothing exciting.

    Regards,
    OW
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Fleet and employee sales. GM would have ruptured years ago without its "in the bag" volume.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Obviously you don't know any more than you read in the car mags. Yes, the Malibu, CTS, Corvette and trucks are excellent, but I know the rest.

    I know from long term experience that GM truly makes fine automobiles. You let others make a prejudiced opinion for you. I just had my new Cadillac DTS Performance on a long driving vacation and the car performed admirably. I couldn't be happier with my purchase. I was also surprised at the great fuel economy! I guess it's getting better as the cars getting broke-in. Heck, my girlfriend speaks of her Buick LaCrosse as if it were some high-end luxury car like an E-Class Mercedes or a Lexus LS. Here's one young girl who will make a Buick her next car.

    The imports also aren't all that. I hear a lot of people complain that their newer Hondas and Toyotas aren't as good as previous ones both in appearance and quality. I have a co-worker who likes Hondas so much that he should write copy for their ads, yet he is turned-off at their new direction and actually told me he was considering a Buick as his next car! I certainly don't care for Lexus' new styling direction. I liked it a lot better when they aped the last generation S-Class Mercedes. The LS new look is blandness personified.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I believe you know more than me. Most people do.

    I appreciate your preferences and respect your choices.

    I can not get excited about the current choice GM produces. The ones I referenced not included but the CTS has competition that will limit it's success unless expectations are exceeded each year. Corvette has no competition either in the price range except GT-R. I still am put back by the sedan but the coupe concept widened my eyes. Now, that's what I'm talking about. No GM has that persona outside of the Corvette.

    Since this is a Caddy blog, I can tell you that none of their current cars strike me as a must have. Period. When the coupe becomes reality, I show up early at the dealer!

    I applaud your exuberance in every case. You need to keep the pressure on GM to improve and stay cautious of complete commitment, IMHO. If you truly know more, you know that.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    so what about the toyota sludge problem

    We were talking about the American cars and their reputations established before the 1990's, I don't think Toyota had sludge problems in those days.

    And it's not like GM had - "well, the Vega was a lemon with sludge, but every other car of theirs is high quality, highly reliable, and people are just flocking to GM for the past 30 years because of such excellent engineering." People cite Toyota sludge or Honda transmissions, but frankly, those are the only significant two problems people have heard of with Honda/Toyota, the problems weren't that bad, and those Japanese companies quickly rectified the problems. Not true with Ford/GM/Chrysler. It's a pretty weak argument.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    They seem to forget about the Japanese car bodies that rusted with a vengeance in the winter and the interiors that cracked and split apart in the hot summer sun. My girlfriend's father bought a Datsun in response to the first 1970s fuel crisis and said it was underpowered and downright scary to drive in Philadelphia rush-hour traffic. It ended up throwing a rod after a few years.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    This is a Cadillac forum, so your posts are completely off topic as are marsha7's.
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222

    MODERATOR

    Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I am not sure what it means to be the "Standard of the World" and I am not sure that Cadillac ever was, but for Cadillac to become the Standard of the World now (or for some other make to become that):

    Cadillac would have to dominate the world luxury market (like Cadillac dominated the US market in the 50's and 60's) and GM would also have to dominate the world market (with at least 40% of the world market). I don't see any manufacturer doing this in the near future. For Toyota (and Lexus) to do this would probably mean there would be only 3 major manufacturers left with the other two nearly bankrupt.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...refers to standardized parts used on Cadillacs from way back. Really, it's just a meaningless slogan like:

    BMW is the Ultimate Driving Machine...for whom, really? Yuppies?

    Or Lincoln: What a Luxury Car Should Be - in my opinion it's a Cadillac.

    Perhaps Lexus' Relentless Pursuit of Perfection - yeah, make the car bland enough that it won't offend anybody.

    Rolls-Royce has described itself as "The Best Automobile in the World!" Heck, lately I find my hooptie '88 Buick Park Ave as the best car for my purposes.

    Porsche - There is no Substitute - uh, what about Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, etc.

    And the list goes on and on...
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles