Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

tlong · July 2008

This is a Cadillac forum, so your posts are completely off topic as are marsha7's.

Point taken. This thread started with your post 5142, we shouldn't have let ourselves get off Cadillack in this forum...

tlong · July 2008

Cadillac would have to dominate the world luxury market

Clearly to be the standard of the world they would have to be recognized as such in Europe and Asia.

I'm guessing that the closest makes to that standard that aren't tiny niche makes are BMW and Mercedes. So Cadillac would need to be able to compete as an equal to those brands.

They have made a good start in the past few years but they would need to:
1 - Add a smaller model than the CTS that can go head to head with the BMW 3 series (rumored)
2 - Improve their high end offerings to be viewed as competitive or superior to the BMW 7 series and/or Mercedes S class.
3 - Maintain and continue to improve their quality, technology, and reliability through successive refinements to these vehicles.

The one thing that Cadillac has going for it to accomplish this is the weak dollar. They could conceivably be more competitive overseas with American made cars due to a cost advantage. They need to have the vehicles and establish good dealer networks overseas. I also suspect they need to have right-side drive versions of these world-class vehicles for markets like Japan, Australia, and the UK.

The difficulty in doing this is the current financial and competitive position of GM. It's going to continue to cost a lot of money to make major improvements in their vehicles. We all agree (I think) that the CTS comes closest to being there, but that is not a full lineup, especially for non-US markets. I don't see them wanting Escalades in Japan!

laurasdada · July 2008

Round and round we go, how to define "Standard" nobody knows. It's been really pretty well covered from the Dewars trophy through tailfins, Cimarrons, Allantes, V8-6-4, downsizing, badge engineering to today.

No car can be a standard to all people. The car that you purchase, that is your standard.

It's well past my bedtime, but I'm actually working... So, I'm not sure of my coherency here...

m4d_cow · July 2008

first is to define the term world standard, cuz for me Cadillac's only time as a world standard was in the 50s, when Cadillac was cross-shopped with the likes of bentley and jaguar.
To return Cadi to that position will require more than just one good product, CTS. The Northstar is a start, the newfound ride and handling too, but it takes more, and time. Try to catch up with lesser divas first, like Acura and Infiniti, then target BMW and MB later on.

I dont see them wanting Escalades in Japan

Well, I see them wanting Escalades in China, especially Shanghai. Escalades, H2s and Chrysler 300cs are everywhere there.

circlew · July 2008

I believe you are right about personal standard.

It's not fair to put Caddy in the same field as Bentley or Rolls. Ultra Luxury really.

BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Lexus, Infinity is more a level playing field. In this field, Caddy is not the standard. Period.

Can they ever really top this class?

Regards,
OW

circlew · July 2008

We can start here and say Caddy at least has a desire to return to some standard it lost years ago. Caddy is certainly not the luxury standard in terms of a sales leader and mark anyone needs to meet or beat. Quite the other way around, don't you think?

In reference to personal luxury:

Decline

American 'personal luxury' cars began to die out in the late 1980s as younger buyers moved toward imported European and Japanese cars, or toward sport utility vehicles. After years of steadily declining sales, the Oldsmobile Toronado died after 1992, the Lincoln Mark after 1998, the Buick Riviera after 1999 and the Cadillac Eldorado after 2002.

Nevertheless, conceptually similar imports from Japanese manufacturers like Lexus SC and Infiniti and European marques like BMW and Mercedes continue to sell well, even though their vehicles tend to be higher priced than their former American counterparts.

Here's what Wkipedia has on luxury car definition:

Luxury vehicle is a marketing term for a vehicle that provides luxury  that which is beyond strict necessity  in exchange for increased cost to the buyer.

The term suggests a vehicle with greater equipment, performance, construction precision, comfort, design ingenuity, technological innovation, or features that convey brand image, caché, status, or prestige  or any other discretionary feature or combination of features.

The term may be applied to any body style  from minivan to convertible, crossover or sport utility vehicle  and to any size vehicle, from small to large.[1]

Though widely used, the term is broad, highly variable, ambiguous and abstruse  and lacks both measurability or verifiability. "What is a luxury car to some.. may be ordinary to others." [1]

In some nations such Australia, a luxury car is defined as one whose value exceeds a certain threshold[2] (see: Luxury Car Tax).[3] while in Portugal, a luxury car is defined by the cubic capacity of the engine.[citation needed]

So Caddy is not the one standard of the world. Never was, never will be.

Regards,
OW

sls002 · July 2008

I think your timing is a bit off. Younger buyers (at least the observant ones) were interested in the BMW's in the late 70's and early 80's. This is one reason why Cadillac wanted a "small" car and put the Cimarron into production.

I think Cadillac was at one time (in the 50's and 60's) a car that a lot of Americans would have named as the one to own if they were rich enough. Hence, the saying "this is the Cadillac of ___", This of course is not really enough to make a car of today the standard of the world, but should be part of the definition. BMW's are recognized world wide in some circles as desirable cars. However, BMW does not dominate the luxury car market world wide.

aldw · July 2008

Manufacturing excellence was the most important standard for Cadillac to have, that was what made their reputation to begin with, and impacted the customer's direct usage more than many other factors. This quality was such that Rolls used Caddy transmissions for year starting in the 1950's. This is the quality that Caddy strives to gain even more so than being a performance standard, regardless of personal tastes.

circlew · July 2008

Caddy WAS great at one time. The operative word was. Now not even close.

That's the current reality. The past is gone but not forgot! Not by a long shot. That's the key reason Caddy lost it's way. It forgot!!!!!!!

Regards,
OW

lemko · July 2008

What the heck are you talking about "badge-engineering of today." Cadillacs are significantly different from other GM marques, you could not simply call it badge-engineering. They have their own unique drivetrains for one. If you want to talk about platform-sharing, well that goes on over at Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura as well. They share a lot of parts with their lesser Toyota, Nissan, and Honda counterparts. Sheesh, you make it sound like Cadillac just takes a Chevrolet Impala and slaps a wreath and crest on it and calls it a DeVille. Hello? They didn't even do that back in the 1980s which was OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO!!!

Cadillac is the standard to me! I can at least count on it to get me to work in the morning, I can count on everything working properly, and it won't cause me to file for bankruptcy any time it needs to be serviced or repaired like those cherished German marques.

lemko · July 2008

I haven't forgot! I still remember those wonderful Cadillacs of my youth from the 1960s through the 1980s. Funny, I just realized I owned a Cadillac from almost each decade up to the present. My high school/college girlfriend had a 1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham, I've had a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille, 1989 Cadillac Brougham, 1994 Cadillac DeVille, a 2002 Cadillac Seville STS, and currently a 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance.

I've actually owned Cadillacs and I have very low tolerance for defects. A burned-out bulb drives me bananas, so why would I want to tolerate even more serious problems year after year? At least I can speak from experience. Everything else is just rumor and speculation.

marsha7 · July 2008

I gotta tell ya...we run into each other on other "highly charged" topics, so you know where my opinions lie...but, listening to you has made me add a DTS to the cars I am looking at the replace the Crown Vic...if I buy one, it is because of YOU...

So, if I get a lemon, I am sending the repair bill to you... :P

laurasdada · July 2008

Read a little closer, my friend. What was actually posted was, "...badge engineering to today.'' A rough timeline, TO today. Not of today.

Not badge-engineering today, just platform sharing. And most mfgs do it so no harm there. Just start with good platforms.

"Cadillac is the standard to me! " And that was my original point. You are correct for you, no argument. The only car that is a standard to me is the one I buy. Right now, Acura TL is The Standard.

You've had wonderful GM cars, fabulous. I've owned/driven GM/Ford/Chrysler/Nissan/Acura/Saab/Lexus/Mitsubishi. My experience? The Japanese cars have been better built and more reliable. Not to say the domestics have been unreliable, just not as reliable as the Japanese. Loved my Chrysler 300M. But, the TL is screwed together significantly better and has been more trouble free. Just a fact.

sls002 · July 2008

You might want to look at the long term JD Power for 2005 results

marsha7 · July 2008

If I understood what I think you were pointing out, it is that Buick and Caddy were Numbers 4 and 5 on the list...is that what you meant, or did I miss your point???...

circlew · July 2008

Cadillac is a standard for you if you have had no issues. Sounds pretty good to me. Enjoy!

But for me, not so standard.

Regards,
OW

sls002 · July 2008

Also that the Crown Vic was second to Buick LeSabre in full size for long term quality. Ford's overall standing is above the industry average and matches Chevy. Buick and Cadillac are near the top, and have been for some time. The important thing overall is that the worst vehicles have about twice the number of problems as the best (compare Toyota with Land Rover for example).

This is a more recent long term study done in 2007 (most recent) for 2004 model year cars (my previous post was released in 2005 for 2002 models). Note that the industry average has improved from 237 to 216. Ford now has more than the average (221) but is better than before (231). Buick now matchs Lexus.

62vetteefp · July 2008

This is a more recent long term study done in 2007 (most recent) for 2004 model year cars (my previous post was released in 2005 for 2002 models). Note that the industry average has improved from 237 to 216. Ford now has more than the average (221) but is better than before (231). Buick now matchs Lexus.

Who are you going to believe? Data based on a huge pool of data or some guy on the internet that has owned less than 20 cars? I go with the guy on the internet every time :P I mean he did confirm his results by talking to other people.

In reality if you look at the data there sure is not much difference between them anymore.

So lets find some other way of bashing american cars. Hey lets use gas mileage!

circlew · July 2008

No, let's use market share. :lemon:

Regards,
OW

62vetteefp · July 2008

let's use market share

OK I guess that makes sense. :P

Overall GM cars are well up in June over last year. They are selling very well, especially the smaller ones that are in vogue now. (in fact the reason many cars did not increase volume was due to lack of inventory because they wer sold out in previous months) What is killing GM is the drop in truck sales, as is it for all companies offering trucks (even Toyota as much as GM). Should GM have not engineered and sold all those trucks in the past? No, in fact most every major make was ramping up truck capacity.

Cts up 16% over last year.
STS up 12%
Cobalt up 22%
Malibu up 74%
G6 up 34%
Vibe up 25%
Aura up 25%
Sky up 44%
SRX up 12%
Equinox up 46%
HHr up 24%
Vue up 25%

circlew · July 2008

Here is the big picture forecast for July:

Even the venerable Toyota is likely to see another drop. Meantime, the combined market share of Detroit's three automakers is expected to hit a near-record low of 44.4 percent, down from 49.4 percent in July 2007 and from 46.4 percent in June 2008. The only time it was lower was in May when it fell to 44.3 percent.

Edmunds.com predicts GM will sell 266,000 units in July 2008, down 15.7 percent compared to July 2007 and up 1.3 percent from June 2008. GM's market share is expected to be 21.1 percent of new vehicle sales in July 2008, down from 24.2 percent in July 2007 and down from 22.2 percent in June 2008.

Edmunds.com predicts Honda will sell 160,000 units in July 2008, up 13.3 percent from July 2007 and up 12.1 percent from June 2008. Honda's market share is expected to be 12.7 percent in July 2008, up from 10.8 percent in July 2007 and up from 12.0 percent in June 2008.

Edmunds.com predicts Nissan will sell 88,000 units in July 2008, up 0.2 percent from July 2007 and up 16.0 percent from June 2008. Nissan's market share is expected to be 7.0 percent in July 2008, up from 6.7 percent in July 2007 and up from 6.4 percent in June 2008.

Edmunds.com predicts Toyota will sell 217,000 units in July 2008, down 3.3 percent from July 2007 and up 12.1 percent from June 2008. Toyota's market share is expected to be 17.2 percent in July 2008, even from 17.2 percent in July 2007 and up from 16.3 percent in June 2008.

Regards,
OW

bumpy · July 2008

a last-minute surge from people wanting in before leasing goes bye-bye?

marsha7 · July 2008

Forgive my ignorance, why is leasing going bye-bye???

laurasdada · July 2008

Chrysler Financial is saying adios to leasing, GM too?

bumpy · July 2008

Short answer: they don't have the money for it anymore.

Long answer: when a vehicle comes back off-lease, the finance company sells it at auction, hoping that it gets as much or more than the residual value of the lease (the lease payments being the difference between the sale price and the residual, plus a little bit extra). The domestic finance companies have a lot of truck and SUV lease returns that are selling at $10, 20, or $30,000 less than the residual value (when they sell at all), so they simply don't have the cash to roll over into new leases and no one else is going to loan them that money. So, now they have either quit leasing altogether or set the residuals to current pitiful market value, making the lease payments so much higher that no one would want to lease.

circlew · July 2008

...couple unaffordable leases with higher prices for trucks and premium cars, tight credit, decreasing home values and you get lower sales across the board.

Regards,
OW

bvdj84 · July 2008

If GM can make the Cadillac the standard of quality of what defines their company, and put more of this work into all of their models, then they would see a better outcome, perhaps downsizing their line up of duplicate cars that have different names on them, but they are they same car, Outlook, Acadia? The same. The problem is they have too many cars, downsizing its line up, would allot for more time and effort to put more quality into their cars.

The problem is, they keep rebadging their cars. They have too many cars, I feel thats why they slack on overall quality.

62vetteefp · July 2008

GM, unlike Chrysler who is stopping all leases, will not offer incentivised leases in Canada. I think for GM-Canada that means if there is a rebate on a vehicle you get the rebate with a lease instead of a lower lease offer. Sounds like the same thing in the end? Anyway GM is still offering leases.

GMAC Financial Services said Tuesday that it will no longer offer leasing-related incentives in Canada, citing market conditions in the country and recent steep drops in used vehicle residual values.
GMAC spokeswoman Gina Proia said GMAC will suspend Canadian incentivised lease offers effective Aug. 1, but will continue offer standard rate leases in the country.

The news, which was conveyed to dealers on Monday, follows Chrysler LLC's announcement that its financial arm will get out of the U.S. automotive leasing business by the end of the month. The Auburn Hills, Mich.-based automaker also cited the decline in used truck and sport utility vehicle values.

Wholesale prices of used pickup trucks dropped 11.2 percent during the second quarter, while wholesale SUV prices fell 9.6 percent, according to National Automobile Dealers Association AuctionNet data released by the NADA's Used Car Guide.

Both Chrysler Financial and GMAC are owned by Cerberus Capital Management LP. The private equity firm owns 80.1 percent of Chrysler and a 51 percent stake in GMAC.

They aren't the only automakers hurt by increases in leasing costs. Ford Motor Co. said last week that its credit arm took a $2.1 billion charge during the second quarter because of the drop in the residual values of leased trucks and SUVs.

Proia said that as of Tuesday, no similar announcement had been made concerning U.S. GMAC leases.

laurasdada · July 2008

Again, stopped at Caddy dealer on the way home as they have an '05 XLR w/20k miles. Asking $35k... So, I'm looking at the car, top is down (so at least I know the top goes down! Does it go up?).

Salesman approaches and I do believe it is the same one who "snubbed" me last Friday. Asks what I think of the car. I give him the general, "mid-life crisis, just looking, rather have an '06 with dark wood in the interior" speech. He smiles, mentions the black '06 (that appeared to have the top trouble last week), but I shan't own a black car. He congenially said I'm welcome back anytime to shop, window or otherwise. Nice.

I mention, as we're parting, that the left front quarter panel is separating from the frame. He looks stunned, said no, he actually sold this car three years ago and it has been meticulously maintained by this dealer... He walks around to the driver's side and looks down. Looks up at me and smiles, "Thanks for alerting me to this." De nada, amigo.

Ok, two XLRs within a week. One with a recalcitrant top, the second has the body separating from the frame (looked to me like the glue holding it on had simply dried up). Again, are the Car Gods trying to tell me something? Isn't GM quality Job 1? Or is GM quality an oxymoron... :P

m4d_cow · July 2008

for the price. Both Ferrari and Lambo cost about twice as much as an equivalent Porsche.

Its good to find someone finally agreeing to my idea that Cadillac should be compared to something in its class (bmw, lexus etc) rather than Rolls and Maybach...

The debate's really heating up rapidly its fun to watch, keep at it guys (and ladies)

circlew · July 2008

The Car Gods know....walk away fast!

Thanks for alerting me to this, by the way!

Regards,
OW

laurasdada · July 2008

True, especially as Porsches can be daily drivers. Unlike most Ferrari/Lambos.

To me, the only car Caddy produces that can be compared favorably to MBMWEXUS is the CTS. Sharp car, except for the overly blinged front end... And I'm too old and square to use the term, "blinged..."

Good to see you here, there and everywhere, OW.

circlew · July 2008

Gotta keep 'em honest!

Regards,
OW

lemko · July 2008

I really like the CTS as well and it shows great promise that Cadillac is going in the right direction. I do like the details on the CTS better than the DTS which I own, however the CTS is a little too small for my tastes and the STS is too expensive. I hope the CTS-like attention to detail crosses over to the DTS. I hear there's supposed to be a replacement for both the DTS/STS in 2010. I guess I'll have to wait until then.

62vetteefp · July 2008

http://www.leftlanenews.com/cadillac-limo.html

lemko · July 2008

Sheesh, I hope the next DTS is prettier than the Presidential limo. I think both of W's rides look pretty gruesome. Clinton's 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham was a very attractive Presidential limo. I think Papa Bush had a 1989 Lincoln Town Car. I have a scale model of Ronald Reagan's 1984 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham limo which was rather attractive.

It's a shame they can't make the President's limo attractive and proportioned despite all that armor. Looks like it could take a few RPG hits. That rear door looks as thick as one on a bank vault

circlew · August 2008

Exactly, my Dad's 1984 FWB was far more attractive than Obama's new ride!

Regards,
OW

lemko · August 2008

My 1989 Brougham is pretty much the same car as your Dad's 1984 Fleetwood Brougham but with a much better engine than the dreadful 4100.

I recall around that time Cadillac used a V-6. If it was the same V-6 that's in my 1988 Buick Park Avenue, it has more guts than the 4100! It's rated at 165 hp and I think the 4100 only had like 120.

circlew · August 2008

It's probably the same V-6 that Buick put in the GNX the year before your car.

The 4100 was slower than my German Shepherd and my minibike at the time!

But, put the current Northstar V-8 in the 1984 FWB and you would have a real plush and fast living room! I used to love mixing and matching engines in different cars...like the 454 Nova!

Memories!

Regards,
OW

cooterbfd · August 2008

I don't recall any V-6 in any Caddy except the Cimmarron. The GNX engine was very conservativly rated at 295 hp.

sls002 · August 2008

A 4.1 liter V6 (big 3.8) was available in the early 80's.

sls002 · August 2008

I think the best RWD Fleetwood engine ever was the detuned Corvette engine from 1994 through 1996.

m4d_cow · August 2008

OW is indeed everywhere, lol

Likewise I think CTS is the only decent cadillac to date. The front end is, um... blinged to say the least. Ugly to be exact, its all good but the grill totally ruin it.

sls002 · August 2008

The old saying is "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". One thing that is generally agreed is that the Pontiac Aztec was ugly. Cadillac's Art and Science style is not really good or bad, but depends on what one likes. I think that the Evoq was nice, but translating that styling into a 4 door sedan has been less successful.

ehaase · August 2008

The STS/DTS replacement has been postponed to 2014, and the Northstar in the current DTS will be replaced by the 3.6L V6 (direct injection model) in 2 or 3 years. I read this on another forum, and an auto industry insider confirmed it to me. GM is putting all its limited resources into the Volt and other fuel efficient models.

fintail · August 2008

2014? By 2013 STS sales might be a dozen a month.

62vetteefp · August 2008

Could you link us to that forum? I really doubt it would be 2014. Way too far away. Delayed until 2012 maybe.

Can absolutely believe 3.6, most likely with a turbo or charger. Already on the shelf 6 years ago. Was a possible engine for a LaCrosse Super before they went cheap and went with the already developed V8.

sls002 · August 2008

It would make sense to delay and use the Volt technology on some all new design. Using a carbon fiber body would reduce weight a lot too.

lemko · August 2008

You wanna see a REALLY UGLY grille? Take a look at the latest Acura TL. Even my co-worker who is a rabid Honda fanatic can't stand it.

circlew · August 2008

Absolutely agree! The poster on the Acura TL forum are sick over it!

Regards,
OW

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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