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Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

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  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Ah, but which Mercedes? Mercedes has a lot of different models, all are different. Top Gear (BBC America) had an interesting race between a sports car model and a boat (London to Oslo). Two boats broke down on the way, so the car won.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The S Class, of course. The rest are starters.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Agreed, S500AMG.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I dont know that much about Magnum's sales details, but if its true I wont be that surprised.
    Like I said, the general term for wagon in the US is wagon = uncool.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The S-class is really not a sports sedan though. If the CTS is a bit too big, then the S500 is even more out of it. On the other hand the S65AMG might be OK. The SL65AMG is better though, but more sports car than sedan.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that the wagon buyer wants something more off road like an SUV, or they want something better for hauling stuff like a minivan. I personally wanted a decent handling wagon, something like the BMW 5-series wagon. But the nearest dealer is over 300 miles from here, so getting service would be expensive.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    There has only ever been one Mercedes, even 50 years ago. The others are cheap consumer and taxi models that were created as a way to placate those who couldn't afford the real thing and to gain market share among yuppies and wanna-be wealthy.

    P.S. The leather seats in a S class are to die for. Really. Like an expensive leather jacket and not this junk the auto industry usually passes off as leather. Though Mercedes at least has the honesty to label their fake leather as synthetic leather.(MB Tex)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think the E-class is quite good. The C-class is low end. The S-class may correspond to something from the 60's, but models were named differently then.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    MB also puts some kind of chemical in the leather, especially in the highline cars. Sit in a new S or CL and take a few deep breaths...it's intoxicating.

    The nappa leather in my E55, which is probably a midrange grade, is very nice, not too hard and cheap, but not so soft that it will crease and crack. It's quality, and a big step up from standard E-class leather.

    Many people still think MB-Tex is leather. It's the best industrial grade seating material.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "If you want it all, get the Mercedes."

    That, or Audi. IMO you forgot these measurements: image= MB, "value"= Audi, winter capabilities (awd) = both, but the quattro is superior. BMW sadly trails down in both AWD and value.

    When it comes down to American cars, I also like the 300c, though I never got the chance to drive the car yet. Great looks, a bit too blinged out, but it can be fixed by a classier, less chromed grille, and new shoes (20" non-chrome, again). There are only 2 things that currently turn me off, 1. Poor fit-finish, and 2. crappy interior materials. Too bad they never even thought of fixing those 2 problem areas, otherwise 300c will definitely be on my shopping list.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I buy the Cadillac DTS. Near luxury? That's Buick. I think the Cadillac DTS is as luxurious as a car possibly ever needs to be, even more.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cadillac has quietly stalled its plans to build a 12-cylinder flagship
    sedan and continues to wrestle with details and timing on a proposed
    rear-wheel-drive replacement for the STS and DTS sedans.

    Inside Line has learned that the XLS sedan and its V12 engine, neither
    of which was ever officially approved for production, have been put on
    the shelf while Cadillac planners focus on developing a single high-end
    model to replace both the front-wheel-drive DTS and rear-wheel-drive
    STS.

    The new sedan is known internally as DT7, using a new alphanumeric
    naming system that Cadillac is considering for its future production
    vehicles (the proposed baby Cadillac is known as AT1).

    According to General Motors suppliers, the DT7 would be based on a
    premium version of the rear-wheel-drive Zeta platform that underpins the
    Pontiac G8 and Chevrolet Camaro, and had been scheduled to begin
    production in mid-2011 at GM's Lansing Grand River plant. Now its launch
    may slip until late 2011 or early 2012, they say.

    Production of the current Cadillac DTS is slated to end in mid-2010,
    while the STS is to be phased out in late 2010, leaving a potential gap
    of a year or more before the new DT7 reaches the market.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    As gas prices reach all time high, its only natural for cadi to shelf the v12, heck I even doubt they'll have all-new v8 anytime soon.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    It seems to me that new cars should be designed as some sort of hybrid with epa ratings of 40-50 MPG. My understanding is that GM cancelled the next generation V8 for Cadillac. While I think that oil production can be maintained at the current level for a short time, and possibly could even be increased, longer term (after 2015) oil supplies are going to shrink. The sooner cars move away from oil as their energy source the better.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    be quite some time before cars run on something other than petroleum, especially with the diesel/gasoline infrastructure set up nationwide like it is...

    We should obviously move forward with alternative fuel research, but I believe the first place it will show up will be outside the auto industry...

    It would be easier, if easier is the word, to alter how we power our homes and buildings first...we need to update the power grid, but how that power is derived can change, because it is the same power over the same lines, whereas the auto needs a complete network of alternative sources...the power company can convert to nuclear, or wind, or solar, or hydro, and the users would never know, as long as power ran thru the wires to their home or office...

    If we ccan reduce the petroleum aspect of power generation by 50%, we could free up that much more oil for the cars while alternative sources are researched for the cars...with 200 million cars out there, eliminating oil/gas as a fuel source will take time, whereas an entire city or region could stop using oil/gas for power generation with, say, a nuke plant ot wind power...

    Just thinking out loud...
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Too bad the government currently cant afford the budget. Wasted all of them on wars.

    Problem is, people ramble about the use of clean diesels in the US, how its much more efficient to buy one, due to its staggering mileage. Then we recount the costs, and found them not so economical, considering the much higher initial cost (read: MSRP) over its gas powered sibling, and also diesel fuel's costs. Then we talk about how it can at least relieve us and the US from its oil dependency. But the real question remains: just how many of us actually CARE about oil dependency as long as gas is still affordable????

    Also consider thse conditions in US, compared to Europe:
    Unlike Europe, theres no real emissions tax in the US, the best they came up with is the gas guzzler tax, which is so insignificant.
    Diesel cars in Europe cost the same, or lower than its gasoline powered counterparts once you count in the taxes (lead and co2 emissions tax, gas guzzler, etc)
    Europeans have low sulfur diesel fuel, which improves fuel economy and durability, also environment friendly. US has no such thing available.

    I dont see how Americans will convert to diesel fuel unless the costs on fuel get lower, or mileage or diesel engines get much much higher than it is now. Another way is to offer federal incentives on taxes to cover the losses on overall ownership costs, but given the current state of the economy, I seriously doubt it'll happen.

    Until then, I guess we gotta rely on hybrids.
  • nortsr1nortsr1 Member Posts: 1,060
    To rely on HYBRIDS might become a LOT MORE EXPENSIVE. I just read an article by John McElroy about LITHIUM and how difficult it is to mine and convert. It is getting to the point where LITHIUM for Batteries is getting more and more difficult to get and the price has been going UP and UP. (plus, it is VERY DIFFICULT to recycle and MORE costly than mining it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    There are also studies out there that are saying that impact all of these heavy batteries will have on the environment is more detrimental than the oil impact - both with mining, production and disposition when they all start going bad. I respect Hybrid technology, but still maintain it is stopgap at best, and not a long term solution to the transportation issue.
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    Cadillac will offer 4-cylinder sedan in '10

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  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I havent ehard of the recent studies, judging from the statements I guess hybrids may prove more dangerous to the enviro than diesels

    Thats not my point though. The point is US still make no effort to increase the use of diesel, instead pushing factories to build hybrids and fuel cell cars. How can diesel vehicles make progress this way???
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Wrong forum but it will take a lot more than coverting to diesel or hybrids or ethanol. We need to use all alternative methods. Ethanol in the short term is best. ONce we start getting it from other than corn or food crops we will see great reductions in oil usage. It is coming.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I hope this upcoming car isn't just a BLS modified for NA...as from what I have read of it in the British/Euro press, it isn't exactly a butt-kicker.

    Some people forget the discussion we had here months ago? At that time the story was that a RWD vehicle smaller than the then zeta, but based on the zeta + Kappa platforms, would be called the Alpha platform. RWD and smaller.

    Now it's being reporting that there will be a new mid-sized RWD platform code-named Alpha. Alpha would apparently take pieces from the other platforms and be used for future Pontiacs and Cadillacs. The next generation G6 may use this architecture instead of the front wheel drive Epsilon II. For Cadillac, the new car would slot in below the CTS and also replace the much derided BLS in Europe.

    If it's done right, such a Cadillac would give the brand a real competitor for the BMW 3-Series and Audi A4/S4, as long as consumers aren't hounded by the memory of other entry-level Cadillacs like the Cimarron. A smaller, rear-drive sedan and/or coupe would fit in much better with Cadillac's current lineup, however, and further help to lower the average age of the brands' customers.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/03/22/kappa-zeta-alpha-another-gm-rwd-platform-comi- ng/

    My concern is that this new platform died because of the financial difficulties even though a smaller vehicle fits the times, but it is RWD and would not get the mpg of a FWD compact/midsize. However the new turbo 1.4L sure does seem to offer a good alternative. I think the issue would be development and tooling cost. The low volume "BLS" probably would not cover that cost but IF the next G6 was shared it would make a great program and Pontiac would have a great line up.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It's been over 60 years since the Americans have so thoroughly trounced the Germans, but Inside Line has the numbers to prove it. The Edmunds news service had a chance to take the new Cadillac CTS-V (which we're driving in upstart New York as we speak) and its supercharged V8 for a spin around GM's Milford proving grounds and brought along its testing gear. The resulting bombardment ought to have the Germans thoroughly embarrassed and rebuilding for decades to come.

    The CTS-V ran the quarter-mile in a scant 12.5 seconds, besting the 12.7 it takes for either the BMW M5 or the Mercedes E63 AMG. Getting back to a standstill was another hit to the Bimmer and the Benz, with the Caddy stopping from 60-0 mph in 109 feet – five feet less than it takes the M5 and six shorter than the AMG. And if you're thinking that brakes and power are easy to upgrade and that the Cadillac couldn't possibly best the Germans on the handling course, think again: the CTS-V ran the slalom at 71.1 mph, while the M5 and E63 ran it in 68.5 and 65 mph respectively. Deutschland über alles indeed.

    Go to:http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/26/faster-than-an-m5-first-cadillac-cts-v-per- formance-test-publish/
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/26/rumormill-cadillac-to-get-its-own-volt/

    With enormous V8 land-yachts and even bigger Escalades rolling down America's boulevards, Cadillac's doesn't have the most environmentally friendly of images. But that's a perception that the premium GM division is working hard to combat. After unveiling the Escalade two-mode hybrid, reports have begun to surface that Cadillac is considering a four-cylinder model for the American market like the Saab-based BLS it offers in Europe.

    New emerging reports now suggest that Cadillac might get its own version of the highly-anticipated Volt plug-in hybrid from its sister-company Chevrolet. No telling at this point if the Cadillac version would be based on the Volt, transplant the Volt's powertrain into an existing Cadillac model, or breed an entirely new Caddy – or for that matter if there's any substance to the rumors – but sources suggest a higher sticker price than the Volt's anticipated $40k.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    Link doesn't work, I had to go find it.

    Now that the E63 and M5 are a couple years old, Caddy caught up :P

    Here's the "story"
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=6963&page_numbe- r=2

    Cadillac won by the skin of its teeth and all the participants walked away happy. Cadillac has made a CTS-V that can best the BMW M5 for likely the cost difference of a Chevy Malibu, while BMW knows its 3-year-old M5 is still close competition for the newest CTS-V. I'm sure BMW will be glad to raise the bar again with the next M5, but for now the V is king.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sorry, here is the Edmunds version

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=131106
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,140
    Interesting. They now can hope other tests mimic those results.

    What I find significant is not simply that the V was able to step in front of the competition - it is that it appears to be both a leap forward from the previous car, and that a Caddy like that exists at all. Step back a mere 10 years and tell an enthusiast that there would be a Caddy that can play head to head with the best from Germany, and they would think you were insane.

    Such a car should incite the competition and make further development even more amazing.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The bottom line is that GM can succeed...what has happened is that teetering on the brink has some nice stories. Let's see if it continues.

    Regards,
    OW
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    GM can succeed, when they pull in the right strategy, which seems exactly what theyre doing right now with new smaller engines.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 346
    Not sure that I agree. At least for upscale wagons, E class Mercedes, 5 series BMW, and the Audi. In my opinion, they are cooler than a minivan or SUV.
    Then again, you have to be pretty well off to buy one of these. They are much more expensive than all minivans and most SUVs. Cadillac needs a wagon because their competitors, Mercedes, BMW and Audi have wagons.

    Also, I think a fair amount of people buy Passat wagons. If you get one loaded they sort of get near the base CTS in price.

    And yes, Cadillac does need a model priced below the CTS.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...a model priced below the CTS should be Buick's domain. I wouldn't mind a baby Buick based on the BLS. Maybe they can call it the Special for old time's sake?

    I would most definitely be interested in a DTS-V or something like it. Of course such a vehicle would break my budget. I can always dream.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I too am amazed that any Cadillac can take this honor from the sacred Bimmer - good for GM! That is a real accomplishment. I guess maybe GM CAN make Cadillac a standard again....it takes a lot of effort though, and resources. But the CTS is the main thing Caddy has, and in these times, it's not a bad thing to have going for ya.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Cimmaron = Strike One!
    Catera = Strike Two!
    CTS = HOME RUN!!!
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    What do you see a DTS_V being? I can see a RWD DTS making some sense as a V model perhaps, but that really depends on what the RWD DTS is designed for. The V series Cadillac sedans are about being high performance sports sedans. The DTS is not a sports sedan, and trying to make a V series out of it would be a total waste. But a RWD DTS that is similar to the Pontiac G8 might prove to be a decent platform for a V series edition. The CTS_V is a decent Cadillac in the V series and does compare with the competition. The STS_V was OK, but not competitive and probably should have been marketed as a performance STS. The STS's northstar engine was simply not designed for enough power. I think they planned for the next generation V8 (now cancelled) to provide V-series performance. The Corvette engine the CTS_V is OK for the CTS, but not quite what should be expected from a higher end car.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Nice...the other team is still ahead by 5 runs in the 9th with 2 outs!

    Regards,
    OW
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,222
    I actually liked my little Catera...

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  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Might as well buy an Opel Omega cuz thats exactly what a Catera is. Its a decent car though, comfy ride. But not worthy the price premium for the cadi badge.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    But the Opel's were not available in the US market then. Holden's are not available here either, execpt as Pontiac's G8 now or the GTO previously.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cadillac will introduce a compact rear-wheel drive sport sedan in 2011 to compete with the size and performance of cars like the BMW 3-series, Audi A4 and Mercedes-Benz C-class.

    The car may offer a high-powered four-cylinder engine. However, it's been engineered to match the top sports sedans' performance.

    GM is still debating whether to offer the car with both V6 and high-output four-cylinder engines. No production site has been announced, but North American assembly is likely.

    If a four-cylinder model gets the green light, look for the engine to produce more power than the 260-horsepower 2.0-liter four-cylinder GM now uses in cars like the Pontiac Solstice GXP and Chevrolet HHR SS.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The Catera had a reputation for being the Caddy that stalls, as well as zigs.....the CTS is a vast improvement. Some may have liked them, but they were not world class by any means.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    was Cadillac's quick and dirty solution to the Lincoln LS. The lack of a V8 suggests that Cadillac was thinking 3-series too. The CTS is the longer term, better thought out, sports sedan. The Escalade was also the quick and dirty solution to the Lincoln Navagator. The Escalade has not been replaced with something more Cadillac like though.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ah yes - the days when Lincoln was great, in the lead, and stirring it up out there. Not so any longer!!
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    As a rebadged Omega, I didnt expect much from the beginning. Like I said, decent car, but not worthy the premium price and badge.
    CTS is light years ahead of catera.

    Btw maybe I'm the only one, but I find the previous gen CTS (after the facelift) better looking than the current one. The new one would look great sans the oversized grille.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I am sure you are not the only one. Once you get into specialty vehicles (low volume, high price) yoiu start getting inot polarizing styling. Some will love it but others hate it. On a high volume vehicle you want to be as non offensive as possible to make sure enough people like it to get your sales numbers. If you only need to sell 50,000 vehicles you need to make sure your styling is so compelling to the 50,000 buyers they gotta have it.

    btw I love the front grille!
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Wow, we sure stand on different side of the fence on that. On the contrary I like the grille on the Escalade, looks pretty good.
    That said the new escalade and the old represent different images, at least to me. Whereas the old one looks classier and still suits older customers, the new one is flashy and suits younger buyers better. just my opinion. :)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    the new one is flashy and suits younger buyers better

    Well that is good. Cadillac needed to reduce its average age.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Well that is good. Cadillac needed to reduce its average age.

    I know everyone says that - but that rationale escapes me to some degree. The median age grows older every year. Older folks usually have most of the money...somebody has to build cars for them, because I can tell ya, at 55, I'm not interested in a Chevy anymore, as if I ever were. There is this continual struggle to lower the age of your buyer - and so if you do that successfully, you risk offending the old farts who like your cars, if you're CAdillac. Oldsmobile did it - look at them now, Buick did it, and has never been as strong selling since. Personally, I think they should be careful about abandoning their market, but that's just me.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I agree pretty much with what you say. However one big reason Buick went down in sales is because they did not at least keep their age group. They aged with their buyers and the buyers died off. You can only raise your median age until they do not drive anymore. I mean an average age of 80 just is not a very big market. Recent changes will hopefully be relevent to a younger market (median age of 50 perhaps).
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    may also change the dynamic...when my grandfather aged, he was an old fuddy duddy...same for my father, no change when he was older...

    Now we have that baby boomer group aging, where they are not turning into old farts anymore, at least not at the age of 60-65, maybe not even 70-75...having had imports and sports cars like Audi, Porsche, Infiniti, MB, etc, they may not be ready for the Buick Electra 225 like Dad and Grandpa were, so the auto dynamic for the next 20 years may be nothing like the last 50...

    In other words, I think the last 2 generations, WWi and WWII, looked forward to the rest home at 65...Now, we see 65 as the new 50, and we have choices our predecessors did not, at least not to the extent that we did, so maybe Buick and Caddy had better design powerful youthful cars, as their geezer market will disappear and the next geezer market may not see themselves as geezers until they are 80 or more...

    Change is in the air...
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