Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Is Cadillac's Image Dying and Does Anyone Care?

1…104105107109110…121

Comments

  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    The thing is, is the "American BMW" concept working? :confuse:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    As far as the CTS goes, it seems to be working somewhat. GM lacks the focus and consistency to really make it pay off, though. The DTS and Escalade distract from the mission, and the STS and XLR never got the proper attention. They would do better to flush out everything except the CTS and introduce some more body styles on that line (a stretch CTS, the coupe and wagon that are coming, and a retractable hardtop coupe would do it), but it looks like Caddy is getting a rebodied Saturn VUE. :sick:
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    The current STS is not selling well. It is smaller than the car it replaced, and that reminds me of 1986, when Cadillac replaced the bustleback Seville, which was a big car that was popular and sold well, with a much smaller European-inspired car. That car did not sell well either. I think history is repeating itself.

    The XLR is a great luxury sports car, (Light-years better than Cadillac's last attempt at this type of car, the Allante) but is has failed too. I think that only underscores my point. People in the market for certain cars will not buy a Cadillac, no matter how good it may be.

    The Escalade is a good full-size luxury suv. That is an important market now, so Cadillac needs the big truck.

    Finally, the DTS is the heart & soul of Cadillac. The only problem is that we should have had a new one by now. Cadillac really dropped the ball not investing in it's bread & butter car.

    A stretched CTS? I would agree if it is stretched to the proportions of the 1998-2004 Seville and replaces the current STS. I do think the CTS variants arriving next year will help, but I do not think CTS variants alone are enough. Cadillac needs new big car products, world-class big car products like it used to do in the past.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    but it looks like Caddy is getting a rebodied Saturn VUE.

    A little more than that. Actually it sounds like it should almost be considered a new architecture?

    Theta Premium
    GM is preparing a premium version of Theta. Reports differ, but the general consensus is that it is a combination of the current Theta and elements of the new Epsilon 2 architecture, with some Lambda components as well. So far, the only models are the Saab 9-4X and Cadillac SRX. Despite the fact that these vehicles are loosely based on Theta, which is often used for small CUVs, it is believed that these will actually be midsized, since many have predicted that the 9-4X replace the similarly sized Saab 9-7X. There are also rumors of 7-seater TE (Theta-Epsilon) models under development.

    Vehicles using Theta Premium:

    2010 Saab 9-4X
    2010 Cadillac SRX

    I currently drive an Enclave but if they came out with a 6 seater CUV I would go to that. Just need to be able to carry 4 kids. Luggage space is not that important to me.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I bought my DTS because it is similar to the 2002 Seville STS I previously owned. I would've bought a new STS, but it is a way smaller car than my 2002 model and I often get the new STS confused with the CTS as they too close in size. I also seem to prefer the interior of the previous STS to the new one.

    I realize the DTS is just a facelift of the 2000-2005 car, but it works for me. The facelift makes the car look a lot sleeker, the old taillights reminded me too much of an old Lincoln Town Car, and the interior is way nicer than the 2000-05 car.

    I would've LOVED it if I could get a RWD/AWD DTS. Maybe next time?
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The bustleback Seville did not sell that well, about 33,000 per year. The first generation Seville sold at nearly 50,000 per year. However the small Seville sold at a 20,000 per year rate at first, but finished up at 25,000+.

    The Deville used to be the best seller of the Cadillac line. Now the CTS is the best seller, perhaps because of price. The DTS (or Deville) is second best. The Escalade is next @ 35,000. The STS and SRX sell at the same rate, about 22,000.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The CTS is on a dead end platform. What I mean is that the CTS will be the last production model on the sigma platform. The so called global RWD platform (Pontiac G8, Camaro) will replace the sigma.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "It's normal to draw some attention at a car launch, but the whooping, hollering and waving the CTS received from passers-by was something quite unprecedented. Barrel-chested and with a deep furrow in its brow, it's a menacing, extravagant beast that seems to elicit an instant response from people."

    Showing off a real swagger (Mail & Guardian)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Speaking of the 2nd-gen bigbody Deville, I saw one today tagged 'DHS'. Any idea what the H was supposed to stand for? Hearse? :P

    I also saw a CTS with a full brown carriage roof, a V-type grille, and some sort of flower-petal wheels. :sick:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    "When the going gets twisty, however -- as tested over the Outeniqua pass -- the CTS does not deliver on the implicit sportiness in the spec sheet. Although it has good grip, it does not inspire confidence or handle in a razor-sharp manner. It favours wider, longer sweeps in which it can use power reserves, as opposed to the delicate switchbacks that favour more precise machines."

    Regards,
    OW
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That had to be an older car. The big Caddy had three levels around 2000-03 or so: DeVille, DHS, and DTS. Don't know what the "H" stood for."

    As for tacky add-on CRAP like carriage roofs and stupid wheels, blame that on the owner and the dealer that provides that garbage, not Cadillac. I keep my cars free of that stuff.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    DHS was the high luxury sedan. This model was sort of a replacement for the old Fleetwood models after they discontinued the RWD Fleetwood. I think that this started around model year 2000.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...an extended-length Cadillac DeVille from about 1998-99. It was like only a four inch extension and it had wheel skirts. I think it was called the DeVille Limited or something like that.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    in the early 2000s, the DTS was the performance version with floor shifter, the DeVille was the "stripped" down version, and the DHS was ultra luxury, column shifter, luxo-boat...IIRC, the DHS had the lower HP version of the Northstar, but better tork, and had better mpg than the DTS...but, if anyone knows, it would be lemko, who, I am almost sure, is quite a fan of the DTS... :P ;):blush:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    DHS, which stands for DeVille High-luxury Sedan, is a premium version designed to appeal to those among younger buyers who lean more toward luxury and less toward sport. Distinguishing features include chrome wheels, more power accessories, a hedge-your-bets switch to choose analog instruments with big, round gauges and pointers or digital displays of the speedometer and minor gauges or a combination that displays both dials and digital readouts. The hood emblem lies flat instead of sticking up. Front seats are buckets, not bench. The gearshift remains on the column.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Again, you pick out just ONE aspect. The paragraphs before state:

    "But the internals are another story. The CTS sports a 229kW and 374Nm, 3,6-litre, direct injection, all-aluminium V6. This is class-leading power in its segment, beating the Mercedes E350, BMW 330i and Audi 3,2 A6 by some margin. The CTS dusts a 0-to-100kph sprint in just over six seconds, with a top speed of 240kph. So it's got the go to match the show and the six-speed "hydramatic", automatic transmission is perfectly competent.

    Power -- in the old-school American way -- is sent to the rear wheels, but without some antiquated rear suspension. The CTS is endowedwith multilink rear suspension, a limited slip differential, an electronic stability management system and electronic brake-force distribution. As the Yanks might say: "This baby is fully loaded."

    The result was a savage disposition on the highway during the launch drive, with a towering acceleration between 80kph and 120kph. The CTS reaches down for its horses with an infectious ferocity, making it difficult not to keep yourself pinned into the seat at the behest of your right foot. The ride is supple and comfortable thanks to its long wheel base and rear suspension that keeps the chassis nicely neutral."

    Can't you just accept that it is a sport sedan DONE THE CADILLAC WAY??? It may not handle "razor sharp", but you won't need $5000 in dental work or stitches to close that gash in your bitten tongue every time you ride over a tar crease in the road (OK, a LITTLE overexaggeration :shades: )
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Relax! I accept the Living Room effects and the lull-yourself-to-sleep highway experience.

    I guess it depend on your definition of driving. ;)

    image

    Regards,
    OW
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    I seem to remember seeing many more bustleback Sevilles than the small Sevilles, and I have been a car watcher since before age 10. It used to be the biggest thrill for me to reconize new car models on the street, after seeing them advertised on tv and in magazines.

    My question Is there any way I can make it so I do not see photos that other members put in their posts?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I don't think there's a way to turn off photos in the forums. You can turn off pictures in your browser, but that'll affect every web site you visit. If you are trying to speed up your net connection, that may be an option for you.
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    Thank you steve. It would be a nice touch if a picture ignore/turn off option were avaliable here.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The only thing else I can suggest is to click on Outine mode at the top right of the discussions. That'll limit what you see until you click through to the posts that interest you. But may not see enough in that mode to figure out what you want to read.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "Oh, and don't drive or park your H1,H2,slade... in cambridge, all the prius in the block will join force and use their Ni-Mh power to fry your truck. "

    Autobots, decepticons spotted, confirmed foes: H1, H2, Escalade. Fire the Ni-Mh cannon, DESTROY THE ENEMY!!!!! :P :P :P
    What about v-12 exotics or v-8 powered sedans? Which side are they on?
    By contrast, H1s are pretty much wallflowers here. No, not every 1 out of 10 homes have one, but they are so common nobody pays attention to them anymore. The same can be said of e46 M3s and Mustang GT/GT500.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    "I don't think Cadillac should try to build a car that is better than some BMW, but should instead build cars that together form a line up of vehicles that customers will want to buy"
    This I agree. Nissan is a good example. Remember Nissan going all Toyota wannabe in the 90s? Sales slipped and they almost went bankrupt. Then they suddenly came back with the 2002 Altima, offering, to some degree, sportiness and agressive styling it's competitors lacking in. Add 350Z and sales suddenly jumped back up.
    Whats cadillac's theme? Have they really got one? Of course, as most competitors already have their own vision, its a tough job for cadillac. BMW offers sporty luxo car, MB offer luxury1st-sport 2nd car, Audi offers awd convenience and amazing interior quality. Add Lexus, which focus on luxury 1st, sports a distant 2nd, or Infiniti which offers value priced sporty luxo car as definite alternative to BMWs. Acura stick with big value and loaded standard features (or used to....).

    The American BMW concept is definitely falling....

    Cadillac, from what I see, seems to try too hard to build an American BMW-MB 2-in-1 car, offering BMWs handling sharpness and MB's softer ride at THEIR PRICE. Bad idea imo, I prefer to start as value player 1st, like Lexus did years ago, and then, when the brand finally re-established itself as a luxury player, go ahead and choose the more ambitious path, the customers will be ready to accept.
    I dont understand why Cadillac is rushing.....

    Of course, Cadillac isnt the only one. BMW really messed their own vision of "sheer driving pleasure" with the 6 and 7 series. More lexus-MB than BMW imo.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The first generation Seville was in production for 4 year and they built 200,000. The bustleback was in production for 6 years and they built less than 200,000, but only just less. The bustleback is more distinctive, and perhaps you just noticed it more. The smallest Seville was the 86 through 91 models and production for the six years totaled less than 150,000.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The CTS is the only Cadillac that is doing well this year. The STS and SRX have fallen off from last year, but are doing better than the DTS or Escalades.
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    Thank you for the tip, but you were right, that is not very usefull. Sigh.
  • carfanforevercarfanforever Member Posts: 84
    It was not the distinctive styling of the bustleback. The small Seville angered me because I did not like it. So if it was common, I would remember being disgusted by it often. That car really was a very rare sight.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Just curious, but what is it about pics in the discussion that bugs you?

    It could be worse - we could have flaming animated emotorcons. :P
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    you can always just push the stop button on your browser before the pictures load up.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The small Seville was the 86-91 model. I liked the body style, but the dash seemed like something you would expect to find in a low priced car. The dash in the Riveria and Toronado were also not great. I think that the 86 Seville's body style was far better than the 85 Deville's, but it did look a lot like the Pontiac Grand Am.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    I think that the 86 Seville's body style was far better than the 85 Deville's, but it did look a lot like the Pontiac Grand Am.

    Yeah, I think in this case, if there had never been an N-body, the 1986 Seville, and the Eldo/Toro/Riv, would have been better-received. The cars are decent enough looking in their own right, but then when you look at the Grand Am, Skylark/Somerset Regal, and Calais, there's just too much similarity.

    Another problem is that design work on these cars began in 1982-83, most likely, when the forecast was for gasoline to be costly and scarce. By the time they were ready for launch, the fuel was flowing freely again, and big cars were in again. In fact, once word was out about the new, smaller models that were soon to come, people were scrambling to buy the last of the bigger models. As a result, 1985 was a good year for the Eldo/Toro/Riv, and the Seville.

    By this time, the market for upscale personal luxury coupes was thinning out, anyway. I'm sure it also didn't help that the Mark VII looked downright muscular compared to the downsized Eldo/Toro/Riv.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Chosen by GM.

    Here is an excerpt that says it all.

    Pontiac GTO (1964):
    Interesting to see that GM historians (and execs, by association) don't think much happened from 1964's GTO until the 1996 EV1...

    Apart from the "maverick" input of certifiable goofball John Z. DeLorean, the GTO wasn't really all that significant a car in its own right (in our humble opinion). But the GTO started the '60s muscle-car thing. And should have proved to GM - though it didn't - that the company desperately needed some free-thinker types.

    Still does. Drugs and booze optional.

    Here is the list. I agree. Boring examples from closed-minded cost cutters is all you ever get.

    GM Best EVER

    Regards,
    OW
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Interesting to see that GM historians (and execs, by association) don't think much happened from 1964's GTO until the 1996 EV1...

    Well I think the issue here is that, for the most part, GM wasn't so much of an innovator. They weren't always the first into a new market, but once they entered, they usually took over.

    The GTO gets credit for being the first musclecar, but in name only, as GM coined that term. Truth be told, there were certain '62-64 Plymouth Furys and Dodge Polaras, with 413's and 426 wedges, that would send a GTO home crying.

    GM tended to be strong in styling and marketing in those days, but often it was Ford that opened up new markets first. For instance, the 1958 T-bird opened up the personal luxury coupe market, but then GM jumped on it with the 1962 Grand Prix, and then the Riviera, Toronado, and Eldorado. Ford also "invented" the ponycar, with the Mustang. Once Chrysler caught wind of it, they rushed the 1964 Barracuda into production, actually beating the Mustang to the market, but the Mustang was still the overwhelming favorite. Ford also came out with intermediates before GM, with the 1962 Meteor and Fairlane. And Ford's LTD beat the Caprice to the market.

    In the case of the GTO though, I think while Mopar beat them out by putting big, muscular engines in their shrunken Dodges and Plymouths for '62, the GTO is what really popularized the formula. And it was a great looking car. The Mopars, in contrast, were kinda vulgar.

    There is one other GM car between the GTO and the EV-1 that I'd consider significant, though. The entire 1977 full-size lineup. Ever since practically, the dawn of time, cars had been getting bigger and heavier, and thirstier. The 1977 GM full-sizers changed all that. The 1977 Caprice, for example, retained the interior volume of the mastodon-class full-sized cars that came before it, yet it was lighter and smaller than any intermediate on the market at the time. While there wasn't anything really revolutionary in the technology employed...mainly just smaller engines and lighter bodies, it did usher in a new age of efficiency for domestic automobiles.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    The ESP module failed, rendering the car to limp home mode, it wouldn't shift, the power steering went inoperative, the Air Conditioning failed, and every monitoring system on the car went on the blink. I'm used to Lexus reliability - this was annoying when it happend. It was most disconcerting I think because it was such a catastrophic failure. It was all fixed under warranty by the fine MB folks in about a day.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    You made an excellent point about the '77 GM full-sized cars. Overall, they might have been the best all-around large sedans in the world at that time. It didn't hurt that they were considerably better looking than their predecessors.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I agree. That was probably the most fair and even handed, objective summary of the big 3's innovative history I've read in a long time. Well done, andre!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Wow, that's no fun...not a common failure, from what I know. Good old modern MB electronics.

    Do you still have it? Have you tested the acceleration?
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Yes I still have it. Yes, I test the acceleration daily. I've blown the doors off of the following so far:

    Mustang Cobra
    Corvette
    Police Interceptor

    That last one was fun.......
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Police Interceptor

    That last one was fun.......

    I knew there was a reason I liked you. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Excellent. I have seen the prices on those crashing down...every now and then I consider it, but they are still far too pricey for me to justify it, and I think I would prefer a 63 series car over a 55, as for some reason I don't trust superchargers. I also fear the low visibility in that design would drive me nuts.

    And on the Caddy subject...I wonder if they will make any "4 door coupe" variant like the CLS, which has been a huge success for MB and is now being copied by others.
  • besetobeseto Member Posts: 10
    http://www.hyundaigenesis.com
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Why??? This is a Cadillac thread.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Got to see a new Hyundai Genesis up close and in person on Friday night. It really isn't as impressive as it is in pictures and the grille is pretty homely. It looks like some Chinese interpretation of a cross between an Acura RL and a Lexus LS. It's the ultimate luxury poseur-mobile. The owner is a guy who runs a factory staffed with labor of questionable immigration status.
  • aldwaldw Member Posts: 82
    I've always thought the current STS could be the base for a CLS type vehicle...
  • besetobeseto Member Posts: 10
    Because many Cadillac owners traded in their CTS for Genesis, followed by Avalon.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I certainly wouldn't trade a CTS for a Hyundai Genesis - the new preferred conveyance of sweatshop managers who employ illegal aliens and whose own immigration status could come into question. Nor would I trade it for an Avalon - the dream ride of aging, irrelevant Boomers who couldn't afford a Lexus. I'd rather be seen in my old 1988 Park Avenue with the fading paint and peeling clearcoat than drive either of those poseurmobiles
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, the DTS...conveyance of Wall Street brokers who repackage and sell untenable mortgage-backed securities and allowed unbridled credit to unqualified Caddy owners!

    That's what should be seen in the mall parking lots!

    Here's a good one on sale still under original warranty!!

    image

    2006 Cadillac DTS Performance - $19,999

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Lem: don't worry about the Avalon, I here it goes bye-bye at the end of the year.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    That's not a DTS Performance. It's a Luxury II at best. The Performance model has a body color grille and nicer wheels, (no centers that are prone to theft). This one has also been assaulted - note the aftermarket chrome B-pillars.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    OK, got it. Not many on sale. Check this out..I am interested! STS AWD.

    image

    '06 STS V-8 AWD

    Let me know what you think.

    Regards,
    OW
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles