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Comments
I just had an accident. From a side road, I was attempting to cross two lanes of traffic into a third lane. I did not see a vehicle in the third lane and pulled in between the two stopped lanes of traffic to make a right hand turn. I struck a vehicle that I did not see that was travelling in the third lane. Once the vehicle was struck it began to accelerate and the brakes would not work. It jumped the curb. I made a conscious decision to turn into a 30 foot cement wall, going 20-30 mph (I'm guessing since I did not look at the accelerator) to stop the vehicle. The vehicle was totalled. Fortunately, no one was hurt. The only part I am a little uncertain about is whether the uncontrolled acceleration and loss of brakes occurred prior to, or after, jumping the curb.
For us when our Sienna surged both myself and my husband checked to ensure that the break was the pedal being used. I was depressing the break as hard as possible and the only way to stop the vehicle as it pushed another car that was parked was to turn the ignition off.
And in our case Toyota (again) claimed they had never heard of this from an owner before.
Or is someone sure this uncontrolled acceleration has been resolved in later models?
Please advise.
They're not by-wire, so I don't see how there would be any connection to the accelerator.
You sure your foot didn't just slip? Also, how did you have enough time to apply the brakes 3 different times, in the middle of all that panic?
It just seems impossible. The hit the brake pedal and it pushes fluid through the brake lines, which apply pressure on the brake calipers, even without power assist this still works.
You hit the brakes, which are not by-wire, and that floored the accelerator, and at the same time the brake system failed completely, even though the two systems are not inter-connected?
It just seems like a loose floor mat getting stuck in the accelerator is more likely to cause something like that.
Does anyone know anything about the Event Data Recorder that some of these vans are equipped with, and how to access the information they contain? They are supposed to record lots of information when an accident happens, so why aren't they being looked at?
"Your vehicle has computers that monitor and control certain aspects of your vehicle. These computers assist in driving and maintaining optimal vehicle performance. Besides storing data useful for troubleshooting, there is a system to record data in a crash or a near car crash event. This is called an Event Data Recorder (EDR).
The SRS airbag sensor assembly contains the EDR. In a crash or a near car crash event, this device may record some or all of the following information:
Engine speed
Whether the brake pedal was applied or not
Vehicle speed
To what extent the accelerator pedal was depressed
Position of the transmission selector lever
Whether the driver and front passenger wore the seat belts or not
Driver's seat position
Front passenger's occupant classification
SRS airbag deployment data"
This is the end of my quote from the owner's manual, however, it does go on to say there may be another EDR if your vehicle is equipped with a vehicle stability control system, which mine was, that contains even more info about how the vehicle was acting.
Toyota sent someone out to inspect my totalled vehicle. I assumed they would check this info as part of their inspection, but I was wrong. As soon as I called and started asking questions about this, they got the report out that very day, the report which said basically nothing, and got the vehicle released so it could be sold, which it was immediately. Again, when many of the newer Toyotas are equipped with this EDR, why aren't they accessing this information, or are they and they don't want us to know the results. I feel that these EDRs, if they do in fact contain all the info the owner's manual says they do, would tell what really did happen in the case of many of the problems people have posted on this message board, including the vehicle accelerating even though the brake is being depressed, as in my case, and also all the people that have experienced their vehicles moving after they have put them in park and gotten out of them. This is the really frustrating part to me, knowing the information was there and nobody would look at it, so then what, we get blamed for the accident, if we are lucky enough to survive it, and then get higher insurance premiums or worse. I hope someone else that this happens to can get someone to access the information in the EDR.
I filed a report with Toyota (case #0904117041) and with NHTSA (confirmation #10265288). As with other cases, Toyota sent a technician to inspect van,, said no problem found. Sent to me what appeared to be a "form" letter referencing my "pulling into a parking space" which was not the case at all. NHTSA has never corresponded with me since taking the original report.
There was no way that I would have ever gotten behind the wheel of this Sienna
again. Just thankful no one else was involved. DO NOT BUY TOYOTA!!!!
Such a violent impact can throw all sorts of things off. Hydraulic brake lines can snap and leak out pressure, for instance. Leaky fluids, short circuits, who knows. Your Sienna was not intact.
I don't think your case is the same as the others here, not by a long shot.
I am really wondering what your interest is in all this. Do you work for Toyota? It seems you are always trying to come up with some other reason why these things are not happening, and are not the fault of the vehicle. What's the deal anyway?
The poster was blaming Toyota instead of the driver that ran the red light and slammed into his van.
I mean, seriously.... :confuse:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm
YOUR comments in regards to being able to brake the vehicle with full throttle is INCORRECT. Toyota Sienna braking system leaves much to be desired, at least on my 04 Sienna, from day one. They have been checked by various Toyota Service Centers.
I tested MY Toyota when this issue became know, ONCE the vehicle is moving (few miles per hour) and when full throttle is applied, YOU CANNOT STOP/OVERPOWER the vehicle with their weak braking system. I feel this will apply to other vehicles with to-days power requirements.
I recommend ALL Toyota owner check YOUR vehicle in this manner. PREPARE yourself and other family members. Personality I informed my wife to turn the key off. And yes, I know what this causes, however attempting to find the shift lever and move into neutral under this panic situation would be difficult indeed.
I just shared the link to the Office of Defects Investigation and encouraged them to file a report about the problem.
If there's a pattern, NHTSA will take action.
If it's a few isolated incidents, or worse, they go unreported, then they won't. Venting on the internet is pointless.
Read my previous post again. That's the appropriate action to take.
I don't even agree with the advice you're giving. What owners should practice is popping the trans in to neutral.
So, are you associated with Toyota in any way?
I've read many of your comments and you tend to question the posters validity !
Reminiscent of the typical, Company Line, statements.
Push the transmission to neutral and the worst that happens is the engine over revs. Turn the engine off and you lose your power including steering and brakes- making a dangerous situation much, much more so. Coasting on the public highways (in Ca at least) is ILLEGAL as well.
edit: as a quick experiment I just tried the two motions and found that without taking my eyes away from the windscreen I could take my hand from the steering wheel move the transmission from drive to neutral and have my hand back on the wheel in approximately half a second. I fumbled turning the key without looking down, instinctively would look down and took a second or more on average. By far the easier motion is to move the transmission lever- it is faster, I didn't fumble and didn't feel any need to take my eyes from the road in front of me- crucial differences in an emergency.
I'm the founder of the Subaru Crew and the Community Leader for that group right here on Edmunds.com. Go to the RAV4 vs. Forester threads and you'll see I'm one of the harshest critics of that Toyota.
My daily driver is a Mazda Miata, that's what I drove to work today (and almost every day).
We have a family/trip car and it's a Sienna, but no, I'm not associated with Toyota in any way, I just happen to think the Sienna is the best minivan available.
A lot of times these complaints are very unilateral, and there's noone here from Toyota to defend themselves or even state the other side of the story. Have you ever once seen someone admit a mistake, say it was their own fault?
In the GPS thread a trucker drove under a short bridge and crashed his truck on the overhead pass, and tried to blame the GPS for sending him there.
As a society we tend to assign blame rather than take responsibility for our mistakes. It's just a pet peeve of mine.
If for whatever reason the throttle is pinned, the best action to take is to slap the trans in to neutral, which is will do at any speed, at any throttle position. That always works.
Cheers.
I didn't recall that complaints by posters in Edmunds needed to be balanced by representatives of Toyota Motors USA. Actually there are more than enough people in some discussions of Toyota's problems who connected with the company and stand up too much for the company trying to overwhelm the poor poster who comes in with a valid complaint.
>Have you ever once seen someone admit a mistake,
Example is a good question here... aimed at the poster, but I'd like to ask it about one example about Toyota.
Did Toyota admit a mistake when they blamed the customer for years about their sludge problem only to eventually give in and pay for some of the engines that were left? Recall how many people and reps of the company were blaming the end users for the sludge problem, including those with more than the required number of oil changes. Meanwhile Toyota had made some changes to the breathing of the crankcase and oil drains on the engine.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
In most cases people could indeed come up with receipts, and those should have been covered from the get-go, absolutely.
I haven't noticed any reps in the Sienna threads, but I don't follow the busy "Haterade for Toyota" threads, of which there are many.
I wasn't aware of any engine changes - in fact the 3MZ engine ended up being replaced by the 1MZ and later the 2GR, not updated. Maybe you're talking about the 4 bangers?
Even so, what worked was filing complaints to NHTSA, which showed a pattern of sludged engines, and forced Toyota to find a fix.
See my link above to the ODI. That's what concerned owners and people who experience a problem should do - file an official complaint.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1e3b64/1166#MSG1166
Here's my response clearing up the lies mentioned in xlu's post:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1e3b64/1175#MSG1175
What ever works for you!!
My wife felt more secure reaching for the key than attempting to shift the lever. She knows how it will effect the steering and brakes, because we performed that maneuver. We are elderly and her reaction is not what it was years back. Myself I would probably shift into neutral, I tend to keep my hand on the shifter anyways.
IMO I feel, this problem, as posters stated occurred because of uncontrolled/stuck throttle. Could there be other variables, sure, but not in every case. Select individuals are adamant as to what happen, and I for one believe them.
Matter of fact, in our area, a elderly woman struck and unfortunately injured one girl and killed her sister in parking lot. The State Investigator discovered her vehicle had a malfunctioning throttle wire. No, it wasn't a Toyota.
Many have stated the brakes will override the full throttle applications, they won't on mine, nor on other vehicles I've driven. Especially if the vehicle has gained forward momentum and the engine is moving into its power range.
I just hope it never happens, in the heat of sudden emergency, who knows how one may react.
Odd, I didn't see where the Sienna was included, would think this will just be a matter of time before they add this vehicle based on the individuals who have this problem.
Wonder if they plan on giving out free floor mats.
Toyota Temporarily Suspends Sales of Selected Vehicles
Report your issues here:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm
Complaining about it on the internet might help you vent and feel better, but the fact that Toyota has not included the Sienna means one of two things:
* there isn't actually such a pattern
- or -
* there is a pattern, but it has not been reported/documented properly
Please click the link if you've been affected.
Send to: karenedmunds.com
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
then select "Recalls, Defects and Complaints" from the menu on the left
then select "Search Complaints" near the top of the menu on the left
On the right side of the next screen, click "Search Selected Type" under where the word "Vehicle" is checked
Try selecting "2005" in the "Select Year" pull down menu and click "Submit Year"
Select "Toyota" from the "Select Make" pull down menu and click "Submit Make"
Select "Sienna" from the "Select Model" pull down menu and click "Submit Model"
Pick "Vehicle Speed Control" from the "Select Component" menu and click "Retrieve Complaints"
Click the "Get Summary" link next to each complaint for details. Interesting stuff.
This is just for 2005. There are similar complaints afterwards for 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009. There are also complaints for 2004, but I got tired of reading them all, so stopped looking at earlier model years.
By the way, the 4Runner is 100% built (parts and labor) in Japan.
Instead, it appears the problem is with the electronics of Toyota's "Throttle-By-Wire" system they started incorporating in their vehicles over the past few years. I'm thinking it's the sensors used to tell the computer when to open or close the throttle.
I continue to hear on our local news how Toyota dealers describe the problem as "sticking" gas pedals, but the stories I read are about sudden acceleration, not sticking pedals. The vehicles just start bolting out on their own, resulting too often in horrifying accounts of drivers trying to avoid traffic, pedestrians, parked cars, trees...
Toyota is supposed to announce their findings in the upcoming week. It will be interesting to see if they stick to their mechanical "pedal" explanation, or admit it is a system-wide electronics issue with their "Throttle-By-Wire" system.
For sure, they will need to add the feature that turns off the throttle when the brake is applied, but they should add it to ALL of their vehicles with TBW, not just the 8 models on last week's recall.
edit: I just did another Google search to see if there was any news. The following article from the L.A. Times popped up about 40 minutes ago:
Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame... gas pedal
The government forcing companies to recall defective products is a good thing. Time will tell if this fix is actually the fix or if there is more too it.
No one should expect the brakes to overcome both the momentum of the vehicle and the full power of the engine. It would take a ridiculous degree of over-engineering the brake system to do so on a vehicle of this size and power. The best way to overcome this is to take the engine from working against you to working for you.
How you will react in an emergency can be decided by how you plan to react and practice of that reaction. Plan to do something stupid and stupidity will occur with natural consequences of pain and injury to those unfortunate enough to be involved. Plan to do something smart and you aren't as likely to kill bystanders (like me and my family).
True, but they are in the case with Toyota as a recall has been 5 years in the making and their so called fix still does not address the actual cause of sudden acceleration when the pedals are not involve.
More importantly, cannot recall in recent years when any other automaker was required by law to stop selling their vehicles.
As far as I know, only the DENSO accelerator units from Japan are exempted. My Sienna has a unit marked "TOYOTA" on it, not Denso. So if my accelerator control unit is the same (is it?) as those in the shutdown/recall, then why isn't Sienna's? How does Sienna's differ?
Also, my VIN begins with "5TDYK....", NOT "J", which is supposed to ID vehicles made in Japan which use Denso units, and therefore exempt. My Sienna is clearly labeled and built in Princeton, IN, and was delivered in July of 2009. Other Toyota vehicle models were also excluded. Why?
Does anyone know the "real" reason these accelerator control units are supposedly not a problem? As nationally televised, the American built Toyota's use control units built by CTS in Indiana. I believe, but cannot be certain, that mine would also be a CTS unit. I would think that most all of the other American made Toyota vehicles would also use CTS units.
I am specifically not concerning myself with the carpet mat issue pressing on the pedal, but only with the electronic accelerator unit. I do not have any mats that can even touch the pedal in my case. Carpet issues can be easily resolved in comparison.
Just another inquiring mind wanting to know. I'm sure others do too.
Thanks to one and all if this question can be answered accurately.
I would not floor the accelerator for obvious reasons, but rather just become familiar with moving the shifter around from D to N and back.
This is true for any car, come to think of it.
Occurences are petty rare, just practice the "Neutral Tap" a couple of times, and never panic if anything does happen.
There are all sort of hazards - you could get a flat tire, slip on black ice, get hit by someone running a red light, etc.
The key it if anything does happen, remain calm and drive to the shoulder of the road safetly. Knowing your vehicle well is a good idea, as is driving defensively (give yourself time and space).
I have noticed a revving of the engine when I turn corners
It's probably holding a lower gear to help you accelerate out of the turn. You don't want the shift-shock in the middle of the turn because that could upset the balance of traction.
It could also be emissions related.
If the revs climb WAY up then I'd park it and call your dealer, and notify NHTSA's ODI division so it's documented.