Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

c_hunter · January 2002

It's probably the brake pads shifting in the calipers, which is somewhat common (several of my cars made this noise) and nothing to worry about. You will hear a click/pop/clack noise when it happens, and maybe even feel a tiny tap through the brake pedal. Should only happen the first time you hit the brakes going forward after being in reverse.

The shim kit was to fix a squeal problem on the Outbacks, and is not related to the popping noise you hear when the pads shift.

Craig

c_hunter · January 2002

Now I remember, it was in one of the Baja press releases:

"Also today, Subaru-Isuzu Automotive announced that Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (FHI), parent company of Subaru of America, will build a new Subaru engine assembly plant at SIA in Lafayette, Ind. Construction of the new engine plant will be a multistep project, which will include an initial capital investment of $36 million for full assembly and partial machining. Fuji Heavy Industries will carefully evaluate the investment at each step, which may culminate in a final estimated capital investment of $167 million. The new engine plant will create up to 255 new jobs.
Central to the announcement, SIA will assemble horizontally opposed 4-cylinder engines for future Legacy and Outback vehicles built at the Lafayette, Ind. facility. The new engine assembly operation will function as part of SIA's Subaru division and is scheduled to produce up to 114,000 engines per year. "

Craig

logtrail · January 2002

Pam29, I have had this noise with my 99S since it was new. Mine's more like a clunk. It's not a problem. There was a post some time ago explaining that it had something to do with the brakes after braking in reverse and then braking in forward (when the noise occurs).

ateixeira · January 2002

H6 and turbo? Where do I sign up?

)

If you want more room than the current Legacy, you'll have to wait for the 2005 SUW being developed with partner GM. But it might have a GM chassis (Lambda IIRC).

GM could put a Subaru H6 and AWD in the Montana, but that platform scored poorly in crash tests and is too narrow for its class. Maybe the next generation will be competitive. I rented a Montana and was not impressed.

-juice

rictom · January 2002

I wanted to let those of you shopping for a L Forester that I just closed a deal for a automatic with keyless for $19,766. I emailed my local dealer as well as 2 others. I told them what I wanted and said it had to be under 20k.
One dealer actually quoted me 19,866 right off the bat. The other 2 kept saying, impossible, we're not a non profit organization etc. I simply kept telling them the price I wanted and that I had one quote already for under 20k. I gave my local dealer a hard time becaise they kept hemming and hawing. Finally they agreed to match 19866. I told them that wasn't good enough, they had to take another $100 off if they wanted to earn my busines 'cause they'd been ignoring what I said I wanted and what I would pay.
They said yes. Barring any last minute weirdness we'll pick up our Forester Saturday. We want it sooner but just can't do it before then.

c_hunter · January 2002

Nice going! I know you will be looking forward to Saturday!

What color did you get?

Craig

sierratrip · January 2002

I recently had my "check engine light" come on and since I read this site on regular basis I suspected that my gas cap might be the source.

Sure enough, after my last fill-up I had screwed the cap on at an angle. Since I was in need of fuel I tanked-up and called my local dealer to schedule an appointment to turn the light off. That was Saturday the 12th of January. Today, the 15th and before I could see the service tech, the light went off on its own. Mine is a 2002 Forester L Automatic with just 3,000 miles.

Should I keep my appointment? Does the light just go off if the fuel cap gets adjusted? It took 2+
days after the correction and fill-up. I don't want to drop off the car if I don't need to but I also don't want to damage the engine either! Any feedback would be most appreciated!!

Thanks, Donn

subearu · January 2002

I think it needs a few on/off cycles without the error code to turn it off. How many times did you start your Forester during those 2+ days?

-Brian

paisan · January 2002

According to Patti from SOA who posts on here often, you need to wait until the tank goes to 1/4 of a tank after tightening the cap. Basically when it hits 1/4 of a tank the ECU will reset itself.

-mike

sierratrip · January 2002

Brian- I probably started the car 10-15 times during the period.

Mike- The tank took about 13 gallons on Saturday when I filled up. This morning the light was on but this afternoon when I left work it was off and has stayed off so far. I have about 3/4 of a tank left. Thanks to Patti of SOA.

Thanks for the feedback! I think I'll let it go for now and see what happens.:)

-Donn

rictom · January 2002

I got the Blue Ridge Pearl. Here's the kicker. I accept the deal and put down a deposit. I then email one of the other dealers thanking him and letting him know I got the deal I wanted, and he says, "Well, I don't like to do this much work and not earn your business, LOL, so if you want to do it this way, give me a one time chance to show you why Capitol will treat you right..."
Geez, it's tempting to say, ok, take $1000 off and you've got a deal! Unless he's really yanking my chain, should I give him a shot? I'm not sure I'd feel right about 'backing out' of the deal I made... Has anyone bought a 2002 L for $18,7xx?

allhorizon · January 2002

I have to chime in here.

First, although Auto Motor Sport is a reputable publication, the drawings (first announced by Arne Herrmann in the alt.autos.subaru newsgroup) are just that and simply give us a bit more to ponder about. I have not been able to verify the source, but I agree with goldencouple1 about the fish-mouthed one being in the middle of what everyone has seen. Clearly, what is stated in terms of staying along the lines of cross-over rather than full-fledged SUV makes most sense and is the most likely scenario.

I don't know why everyone here thinks the H6 is such a good idea. You get similar or better performance from the turbo, at less weight and less fuel consumption. If Subaru decides on the H6, it will be because they think that's what Americans want (as an option), and it helps for towing. But there are too many down sides:

- fuel consumption
- front weight distribution
- too much weight
- fleet CAFE numbers
- doesn't fit existing design
- very expensive option

If they decide that way, they may just be afraid that too many folks would tune a turbo, which leads to reliability and warranty problems that are difficult to manage.

However, just because the magazine says so I am not convinced.

Advantages of a turbo version (in addition to not having above disadvantages):

- allows a more powerful engine without using up valuable real estate (that needs to be increased in the passenger area instead, to remain competitive)
- underlines sporty nature of car. Many CRV etc. buyers are young; Forester buyers are demographically far older folks. Allows them to tap into the younger market segment.
- cheaper to build, does not need extensive engine mount, support and size changes. More like <$1000 versus $2000 (don't forget ensuing changes of the transmission, suspension, brakes, etc).

No matter what, if they have not managed to increase the power of the existing H4 by 10% while increasing mileage (e.g., using VVT), I am afraid, they will loose the battle. Subaru offers an attractive but strange, idiosyncratic mix that sometimes appeals to conservative folks, sometimes to mainstream people with a sense of adventure or simply common sense. However, that does not mean they don't have to refine their product to stay competitive.

- D.

allhorizon · January 2002

OK,

Say I am in the market for a new 2002/2003 model car and like safety, great handling, and a bit of storage space in a smallish car between about $25K and $32K. Oh, and I already have a Passat 4Motion, it should be smaller and a bit more nimble if possible. And I find the WRX too small.

Three cars come to mind:

- the 2003 Forester
- the A4 wagon
- the Jetta 1.8T or TDI Wagon

If I give up on the AWD (in the US), I get a great, inexpensive car at up to 50miles/gallon. What I save on initial and gasoline cost, I can put in a chip to get performance comparable to or better than the Forester (assuming an H4).

When I look at this, the only way I would decide on the Forester is if I really needed that additional 3" or so clearance. The other two are better in most other respects (including trim and mileage).

With just a few $1000 more than either the Jetta or the Forester, I get a vastly superior car with the new 3.0l A4.

I know this may sound like a strange comparison to some people, but those are the cars I am looking at. Now you may understand why I think Subaru needs to show us a lot with the 2003 Forester to remain competitive.

Oh, by the way, I do like Subarus and owned a '77 as well as a '87 GL. Believe me, no one else would like to see a vastly improved 2003 Forester succeed more than me.

- D.

paisan · January 2002

Advantages:

o Smoother
o Towing (this is an SUV)
o Lots more low end torque
o This is America, we like to see 6 cylinders or 8 it's a psychological thing
o reliability (a Turbo car will not last as long as a N/A one)
o doesn't require premium fuel

-mike

1subydown1togo · January 2002

<"With just a few $1000 more than either the Jetta or the Forester, I get a vastly superior car with the
new 3.0l A4.">

A few more?...how about an Edmunds TMV of $33,000 for the Audi vs. $24,000 for the Forester S Premium+. That is $9,000 more, not just a few...

thecat · January 2002

"mericans" want low end torque. IMHO a turbo Forester has a very limited audience here in the U.S. Maybe Juice and a couple of other folks

However, I thought that the new H-6 does require premium fuel and I think the current towing limits are due to brakes not torque.

- Hutch

paisan · January 2002

It suggest premium and runs better on it, but it doesn't require it. I think actually it's the chassis that limits the towing coupled with the brakes, but to do any significant towing over 2000lbs you really need some nice torque and hp.

-mike

ateixeira · January 2002

Congrats, Rick. You may want to ask ahead of time if they add any fees to your agree-upon price, so there are no surprises. If one place has a $300 processing fee and other doesn't, the bottom line is better at the other place even if the price is $100 higher.

Donn: keep the appointment. The tech will read the code to make sure that's what it was.

Wait a second, the H6 makes 20/26 in the heavier VDC with automatic. The auto WRX makes 19/26 in the lighter Impreza body, so it's actually worse in terms of mileage and CAFE.

And a turbo has a bigger thirst for high octane, so running regular on the H6 is less detrimental. You lose 4hp in the H6, but in a turbo I would not run 87 octane no matter what.

Also, the H6 LL Bean is $1800 more than the Ltd wagon, but it includes 3/36 of free service, and a few extra goodies. So figure on the engine costing an extra $1200 or so.

But the WRX wagon costs $4800 more than an Outback Sport. Factoring equipment, the turbo still costs double easily. Maybe triple.

Don't get me wrong, I like turbos too. But if it fits, only 2 out of 6 of your down sides are correct, and the extra cost and mpg penalty actually would apply to the turbo. That sort of turns the tide in favor of the H6.

So let's see, Turbo advantages include:

* more compact engine
* lighter
* weight distribution
* quicker
* high-tech appeal to young buyers
* off-boost efficiency
* works with a manual tranny or auto

The H6 basically gives you:

* lower price penalty
* better fuel efficiency, 87 octane usable
* more luxurious appeal to upscale buyers
* low-end grunt (same as towing IMO)

Reliability is a toss up, but the H6 may carry a perceived advantage with buyers. The biggest negative I see is that Subaru has not fit a manual tranny to the H6 yet.

-juice

c_hunter · January 2002

I think you got a good deal as-is, and it probably isn't worth the trouble to mess with the other dealer again (never mind that it's not good, and sometimes not possible, to back out of a signed deal unless you have a real legitimate reason). They had the chance to earn your business, and should not be adjusting their deals now -- it's too late. You could go back and forth like this forever. And I doubt they would be able to go much lower than invoice.

I went through something similar when i bought my first Outback -- I had a good price quote from one dealer, and then went to another who promised me they could do better. I think it was a trick to lure me in. Overall, I might have saved $50, and it was not worth the time and effort. When they said they could "do better" it was with stuff that didn't matter to me, like freebies, baloney paint protection packages that they would not charge me for, a free oil change, etc. I was interested in $$$ plain and simple, but they were just interested in moving a car off their lot.

Keep in mind that dealers want two things: 1) to move inventory, because it costs them money to have cars sitting on the lot, and 2) to make as much as they can off of each sale. You have pretty much hit the limits on #2, so now the other dealer is vying for your business just to get a car off his lot. I think it's more in his interest to get you back than it is in yours.

Craig

c_hunter · January 2002

Juice is right -- in the context of a vehicle like the Forester, there are more downsides to a turbo motor compared to the H6. No doubt turbo motors are more expensive to build. You have some very detailed and exotic engineering and manufacturing going into a turbocharger and its plumbing and cooling systems. The H6 is a pretty tame design by comparison (I'm not cutting on the H6, just pointing out that it's a pretty normal design by Subaru standards).

To me, Forester buyers would want low end grunt and a smooth, uniform power curve. Other than a few of us here on Edmunds (I won't name names :-) but you know who you are), most Forester buyers are not going to be driving the cars hard or flogging the engine like you would do in a turbo car. Let's face it, turbos are meant to be driven energetically -- it's the whole basis for how they boost power. If you don't drive the car that way, you may as well get a normally aspirated engine and enjoy the benefits of that type of motor.

Besides, the WRX wagon is fine for all the turbo-addicts out there . . . .

Craig

ateixeira · January 2002

I'd like to see a compromise. The 2.0l intercooled high-pressure turbo is probably a bit much for an SUV. The H6 is big and heavy.

So, why not give us a light pressure turbo 2.5l? Volvo has a 2.4T that is their most popular engine. VW's 1.8T is also very popular. The bonus is it's easy to chip them.

The 2.5l can be made on the existing assembly line, just add a light pressure turbo. It wouldn't really even need an intercooler, to keep costs manageable.

We'll see what Subaru decides.

-juice

paisan · January 2002

Oh yeah on a side note:

Weight and space are not issues.

The H6 is slightly larger than the H4, but then there is no Turbo unit to slap on it, so space issues are a wash IMHO. Same goes for weight.

-mike

penguinpower · January 2002

Is the first oil change for Forester at 3,000 miles or 3,750 miles?
My salesman kept saying 3,750. I have seen 3,000 written.
when should I take it in. I am getting very close to 3,000.
Thanks
Dave

mckeown · January 2002

Dave, !st change is 3000 miles, After that depending on the Dealer, your own common sense or the Maintainence Schedule in the Owners Manual, your next will be 6000 miles (changing every 3K), or 7500 if you follow the manual. Good luck on your New Vehicle.

rictom · January 2002

thanks, don't think there will be any surprises, I've dealt with this dealer before, but will make sure before I sign anything.

As for service: do many of you take your Forester to the dealer for oil changes etc. until it's not under warranty and then do it yourself or take it to your mechanic? Or do you do it yourself or take it to your mechanic from day one?

Thanks

ateixeira · January 2002

They already have an STi version in Japan with 250hp (2.0l turbo), so we know it'll fit.

The H6 is 0.5" longer, that's it. There is more than that available.

Dave: I thought it was 3k. I was impatient and did it at 1k myself.

I do all the service myself, oil changes, tire rotations, and the 30k service. I have not reached 60k yet.

-juice

rkw2 · January 2002

I have one of the first Forester produtction vehicles with about 75,000 miles on it. I usually replace the timing belts on my cars at 50,000 to 60,000 miles. Last year the dealer told me to wait until 100,000 miles. Any recommendations???

I've recently noticed that when I'm in stop amd go traffic that the car jerks forward when I hit about 5 mpm when accelerating very slowly. Is this related to the timing belt or is this a transmission problem.

Thanks for you help.

canadatwo · January 2002

is for an updated, normally aspirated H4 with 175-185HP and better torque & HP curves than the current motor, while achieving the same or better mileage.

Nissan gets 175HP out of the 4 in the Altima.

sounds like Subaru has lots of possibilities with this one.

Looking forward to actual pictures (vs drawings).

mckeown · January 2002

RKW2, on my 90 legacy, much the came block & timing belt, I changed the belt regularly at 75K as the PM schedule suggested. I never removed a frayed, dry rotted or worn belt. On the '02 Forester it suggests 105K. Unless your belt is different, check your owner's manual under Periodic Maintenance. The dealer is probably correct. As far as the 5mph lunge, is it an Automatic? try pushing the AT switch, this makes the transmission start out in 2nd gear and may help you determine if the lurch is from the transmission or engine. Good Luck.

kate5000 · January 2002

with no premium fuel requirements.

ateixeira · January 2002

I'd love to see a power gain from the 2.5l. I almost think a fuel efficiency gain is more important to Subaru, though. Plus it would allow for more of the powerful engines to be sold.

I want more power, but I can accept that I'm a bit of a car nut, and I'd be willing to pay more to get the H6 or turbo.

Timing belt should be inspected at 90k, changed at 105k. It's not the cause of your problem, but if it makes you feel better get it changed at 90k, since you'd have to pay for some labor to inspect it.

-juice

paisan · January 2002

You won't know they are going bad, except for inspection. Basically once they are bad, the car will die, and you won't be able to re-start it. It's kinda like an on-off switch. You can inspect it for cracks but the car won't exhibit any problems until it actually breaks.

-mike

mainemojo · January 2002

Donn: I've dealt with a CEL warning caused by the fuel cap on my '00 Legacy GT Ltd. often enough to know it takes a few miles and starts to reset the bugger. So when the CEL on our new '02 Forester S+ came on at about 400 miles, I adjusted the cap and, sure enough, it went off. Two days later, same routine. Two days after that, too. When it happened again I had the dealer check it out. Turned out to be a faulty O2 sensor. So as Juice said, can't hurt to keep the appointment.

Mo

allhorizon · January 2002

1subydown1togo:
>>A few more?...how about an Edmunds TMV of $33,000 for the Audi vs. $24,000 for the Forester S Premium+. That is $9,000 more, not just a few...<<

I was tossing around a turbo or H6 Forester that may very well be $3500 more than the existing (see below). Also, I think 32,500 for the Audi is more realistic, given that Edmund's TMV for the Avant is basically MSRP, and the MSRP listed for the sedan is $600 more than on Audi's web site. So you are talking about $27,500 vs. $32,500 - a $5,000 difference. Small difference? Probably not, but for me, worthwhile to consider.

Juice:
>>Wait a second, the H6 makes 20/26 in the heavier VDC with automatic. The auto WRX makes 19/26 in the lighter Impreza body, so it's actually worse in terms of mileage and CAFE.<<

The existing Forester turbo gets within 1% the same highway mileage as the normally aspirated, and uses only 3% more in the city (Subaru AU web site; 10.7/7.4 vs. 11.0/7.5 l per 100km). That would give about 20/28 for the manual turbo *even if they have not managed to improve the mileage over the last 4 years*. However, if they have were able to improve the mileage of the H6 in its short life span, that would be great, too.

>>Also, the H6 LL Bean is $1800 more than the Ltd wagon, but it includes 3/36 of free service, and a few extra goodies. So figure on the engine costing an extra $1200 or so. But the WRX wagon costs $4800 more than an Outback Sport. Factoring equipment, the turbo still costs double easily. Maybe triple.<<

OK, the Australian and UK turbo foresters are about $3500 more expensive, but I am pretty sure that includes transmission, suspension, and wheel changes which would also be necessary or included on an H6. I agree with your remarks about a light pressure turbo on the 2.5 - that would be my preferred choice. My point is, a turbo version can be cheaper than a 6cyl., look at Audi/VW. I also agree with you that modern turbos for the most part do not have reliability issues. While the perception may be different in the general public, it is not necessarily so in the target market of a turbo.

I also agree with you and would be disappointed if they would only offer an H6 automatic. On the other hand, they have an existing tranny for the turbo. Are you sure the H6 engine is only 0.5" longer? How much wider is it? If that is true, that would make a fit into the Forester much easier than I thought.

Craig:
<< most Forester buyers are not going to be driving the cars hard or flogging the engine like you would do in a turbo car >>
Current buyers, yes. That was the premise of my remarks. To get part of the large market share owned by Escape and CRV etc., they need a model that appeals to younger drivers and drivers that like the sporty touch or image. For the others, a 10% increase in hp of the existing H4 would possibly enough.

Mike:
Most cars that are offered in a 4cyl. turbo versus 6cyl. version are significantly heavier with a 6 (180lbs for the manual A4 quattro, 80lbs for the leaner GTI), and all that weight is to the front. The turbo can be slapped on top/ to the side such that it fits the existing design. Don't forget the Forester has been sold for years in the exiting design with a turbo (albeit not in the US). While the turbo Forester is about 100lbs heavier (Australian GT vs. Limited), I suppose that includes transmission and suspension changes that would also be required for an H6.

Canadatwo:
Why not both? An improved H4, and then an H6 or turbo as option.

rochcom · January 2002

This e-mail exchange with Subaru should help explain the timing belt maintenance requirements and consequences of failing to make the change:

From Subaru of America:
Thank you for getting back to me with your VIN. Since your '98 Forester is
a Californian spec. vehicle, the timing belt is recommended to be replaced
at the 105,000 mile service interval. Please follow the schedule detailed
on page 44 of your "Warranty and Maintenance Schedule." Best wishes!!

John J. Mergen
Subaru of America, Inc.

From: SOAMail@sun.subaru1.com
Subject: Re: Product Recommendations (E-mail #493925)
Date: Thursday, September 14, 2000 3:04 PM

Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site, and for your inquiries.

1. The engine in your '98 Forester is a an interference type engine. Damage
will occur to your engine if the timing belt breaks. 2. If you have a
Federal Spec. vehicle, we recommend that the timing belt be replaced at the
60,000 mile service interval. If you have a California Spec. vehicle, we
recommend that the timing belt be replaced at the 105,000 mile service
interval.

If you do not know what spec. your '98 Forester is, please contact us again with your VIN, and we will advise you. Best wishes!!

John J. Mergen
Subaru of America, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------------
YOUR ORIGINAL MAIL:

1. Can you tell me if the 1998 Forester engine (Double Overhead Cam) is
an 'interference' type where the valves and piston tops can come in contact
if the timing belt breaks?

2. What is the current recommendation on changing the timing belt?

paisan · January 2002

The H6 is not significantly larger or heavier than the H4 2.5 those are facts from SOA. So you bring up the Audis which are totally different vehicles, so I don't buy your weight/space issues.

Also the target market for the Forester is as a primary vehicle, and a lot of those people will be using it to tow their jetskis, boats, etc. Audi buyers generally will own an Audi + larger SUV, meaning they wouldn't need to have as much towing capcity as the forester since it wouldn't have to do double duty.

Anyone who is buying a cute-ute as a "sporty" vehicle is in the wrong market, none of them are very sporty. Also we aren't talking about the Australian or European or Japanese market. In the US #s of Cylinders, Displacement, and non-turbo SUVs/Cute-utes are key to sales success. They may or may not be the actual best performers but it's all perception here in the US. How else could Ford have sold so many of the crappy Explorers other than percieved notions that were engrained in the minds of the buyers?

-mike

paisan · January 2002

Too many engine options/options in general will kill Subaru as a company since they are such a small producer.

-mike

allhorizon · January 2002

Mike:
>>The H6 is not significantly larger or heavier than the H4 2.5 those are facts from SOA.<<
I am glad that you guys have enlightened me about this. I did not know that, since it is very different from other manufacturers' engines.
My entire argument is about Subaru offering a turbo or H6 to expand the Forester's market, not to simply please its current market. If the H6 is as thrifty and small as you claim, all power to it (no pun intended).
In my neighborhood almost everyone owns either a truck or an SUV, but I'd say fewer than 20% of the people ever tow anything. A peppier Forester might appeal both as a second car and as a first car to young buyers. I am not talking about the Explorer market - the Forester has no shot at that. I was talking about the Escape/CRV market (all miniSUVs combined sell about 10 times as much as the Forester - so there is plenty of room to grow). This could be achieved with either a turbo or an H6, in particular, if CAFE numbers are not a problem.
Mini/Cute-Utes with sufficient torque/hp can be sporty if they have a good suspension and weight distribution compared to the alternative of (at least some) underpowered small station wagons. For most people, there are many dimensions to consider in making a purchasing decision. One of the problems in the US is that that you have to compare AWD with FWD vehicles, because there are too few AWDs to choose from. Else, you end up comparing Foresters with Passats and Audis, if you happen to like AWD.

Mike:
>>Too many engine options/options in general will kill Subaru as a company since they are such a small producer.<<
I don't get this argument, since all three (H4, H4 turbo, H6) are already being sold in the US and parts and technician know-how are available.

- D.

paisan · January 2002

Subaru cranks out Foresters with 1 engine option before the orders roll in. If you offer multiple engine options then you have to more accuritely anticipate what customers will buy. The same reason that roll-up windows are not offered. Smaller companies like Isuzu and Subaru need to have less options (especially engine ones) so they can just produce the vehicles based on total sales, w/o splitting hairs of how many H6s v. H4s

-mike

speterson1 · January 2002

I chimed in awhile back mentioning that my rear windshield washer wasn't working. First of all, let me thank those who responded with the tip to just check the washer fluid level since the intake line for the rear washer is mounted a little higher in the washer resevoir. I checked that, and it wasn't the problem, the washer fluid was full almost to the brim.

Just took the Subie in for the latest oil change and had them look at it, and they fixed it -- said it was clogged. The tech couldn't tell me with what or how it had gotten clogged in the first place, but at least they fixed it.

I also had them look at my outside temperature gauge, b/c it consistently reads about 6-8 degrees high. They were going to replace it but were out of the right sensor and had to order it. I'm surprised it's not adjustable, b/c it seemed systematically off. Perhaps it is and the techs here are lazy. At any rate, it's in the shop today getting that installed, I'll let you know if it works in a day or so. I remember having the discussions here awhile back about the road surfaces being a little warmer from traffic and that possibly nudging up the temperature reading, but I don't buy it for our car, especially since most of the driving we do is on pretty minimally traveled roads.

I love our Subie! Over 11,000 miles now and the most I can complain about is a clogged rear windshield washer and a slightly inaccurate outside temperature gauge, both fixed under warranty. Plus we've FINALLY gotten some snow in Wisconsin, and I am enjoying my first winter driving with AWD!

Steve

ateixeira · January 2002

It depends on which variation of the 2.0l turbo they bring. Some make only 168hp (though torque is good). I was referring to the 227hp version from the WRX. Remember, they have to be tuned for US gas and emissions.

I don't think you can use prices from other markets to figure out what that model would cost here. A Blitzen costs $22k US per an Autoweek article. If so I'll take two, a sedan and a wagon!

A big issue we haven't brought up yet was that GM wanted Subaru to move Forester production to the USA, at least eventually. The H6 is US made, while no turbo is.

And that brings up an even bigger question - will they use a Legacy platform (making the H6 a shoe-in) or the Impreza's (keeping hope alive for turbo fans)?

Automotive News has said it will be a turbo, and in 2004. So then the question is, which one? 168hp from Latin America? 215hp from Europe? 227hp from US WRX? Or even an entirely new 2.5l turbo?

I don't know, but it'll be fun to find out.

-juice

tincup47 · January 2002

When adding optional equipt., especially for the first time, you run the risk of getting your product mix wrong and costing sales/ and or profit. This has been a problem with the Jaguar X-type, which brought in too many high end models. Subaru has been able to sell their vehicles without resorting to large rebates or customer incentives. Though by the ease of getting them at or near invoice, there has to be dealer incentives on them. Holdback isn't enough to make it as easy as it is. Lack of customer incentives is one reason that Subaru's hold resale better. Every dollar you give away as an incentive will haunt the vehicle down the road at trade-in. Selling at invoice doesn't seem to have quite the same effect.

ateixeira · January 2002

So true. Pity the Jeep Grand Cherokee owners that bought his two years ago. The prices are $2k lower now, so his resale has tanked.

Speaking of bad resale, a co-worker paid $42k for a C70 convertible, and the ride is so stiff she's trading it in 2 years later with close to 20k miles. She said private sale prices were around $22k. $20k depreciation in two years!

I paid $19,200 for my Forester, and 3.5 years later they still sell for $14k or so. That's 1/4 the depreciation in almost twice the time!

-juice

p0926 · January 2002

mike- I partially disagree with your statement "the target market for the Forester is as a primary vehicle, and a lot of those people will be using it to tow their jetskis, boats, etc"

I concur that the Forester is used as a primary vehicle but I don't see that many owners needing to tow jet skis or boats (Bob being the notable exception). Forester owners are far more likely to transport bikes, kayaks and canoes.

And while the terms sporty and utility are somewhat oxymoronic (as example, the stupid Mazda Tribute ads touting it's sports car heritage), you can still have a sporty cute-ute. I think that the Forester excels in this area and Subaru will hopefully capitalize on that fact.

Also, I think it would be wrong for Subaru to try and compete head-to-head with US manufacturers in the cylinders and displacement race. Subaru has always been a niche marketer and that's where they need to stay. Let the masses continue to flock to Ford to buy Exploders etc. I for one am happy with the status quo. I.e. well built, safe, reliable, fuel efficient and functional vehicles that are "fun" to drive.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · January 2002

Look at the Tribute ads. If an SUV were really brought up by sports cars, it would have a longitudinal front-mid engine, a peppy 4 cylinder that was fuel efficient, and a low center of gravity like the Miata.

In other words, it would be a Forester.

-juice

paisan · January 2002

Subaru already has the bikers, hikers and kyackers. They want to try to reel in the others who are looking at Escapes etc. I know of at least a dozen people who went with non-foresters due to the engine/towing/rear seat space.

My point above was that subaru owners are not as affluent as other buyers (audi/vw/volvo/etc) and generally won't have a big honking SUV at home to tow/haul the family boat/camper/stuff, so the forester needs to be more of a catch all. If they want sporty they have the WRX wagon, Legacy GT sedan, etc.

-mike

lark6 · January 2002

Lots of very good observations going on in here on what the Forester is/ isn't. I'm not sure how much I want to add without falling into the "too much information" category but I'll try.

When I started shopping summer-fall '99 I knew I wanted hauling capacity/all-weather capability; fun to drive was secondary. Most of the things I haul are more logically carried in a wagon/SUV than a pickup. Most larger SUVs are overkill for my use; I am not a routine off-roader but I do encounter siutations where I have to drive on bad rural roads. Hence I found myself in the Audi/VW/Volvo/Subaru pool paisan describes.

Of those vehicles listed, in my opinion Subaru offers the best value for money and the best reliability and resale value. My logic went along the lines of "either Subarus are disposable AWDs or those New Englanders are onto something." Bill Cosby used to do TV ads for Temple University proclaiming "I could have gone anywhere. I chose to go to Temple." I guess in so many words (again, I realize the risk of "too much info") I'm trying to say I could've bought those other vehicles but I chose to buy a Subaru. Paisan is probably right in that the Subaru demographic has a lower income than the Audi/VW/Volvo demographic, but I'd argue that there are a significant number of people who would rather sink their money into something other than a car, in which case a Subaru makes much better sense than those other makes.

To everyone's point, perception means a lot and the perception of Subaru is lower on the status totem pole than those other makes. It seems that if you say something loud enough and often enough in this country it's somehow taken as true. Witness the attempted transformation of VW into a luxury make to compete with Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, and Jaguar among others. As a former VW owner I can only shake my head and chuckle at this.

Ed

FrankMc · January 2002

to transform itself into a luxury brand... I thought that is why they had Audi. However, I also think all the manufacturers want to improve their status, Toyota is introducing another brand into their mix, and Subaru's annual report states in it that Subaru "will strive to maintain our image as a premium brand manufacturer".

Frank

rsholland · January 2002

is on the wrong track hereupsetting the whole German car hierarchy. It will do nothing but confuse it's current audience. The other issue is, how much room is there for another premium German car line? It seems to me that with the new ultra-luxury VW, that market will be glutted.

Bob

lark6 · January 2002

I currently see the relationship as Audi:VW as Lincoln-Mercury:Ford. If VW is successfully moved upmarket, what if anything will VWAG replace VW with in that market segment? SEAT? Skoda? Would we in North America accept cars that are perceived as coming from Spain or the Czech Republic?

Ed

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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