Pontiac Aztek

lbthedog · March 2001

Look, you have no documentation for your claims. Resale as a part of total cost will mean something. But total cost should also include maintenance (which will not be a huge cost), insurance, (again well within reason), taxes (based upon purchase price, again, reasonable). Bottom line, you can point all you want at one factor. And you can make up all the numbers you want. The problem that this vehicle has is not it's construction. The styling doesn't work for everybody. So? If you live in a state that has license fees based upon purchase price and a tax rate at 6%, your "BMW doesn't lose as much value" agruement looks pretty stupid. You don't get the taxes back. You get to pay more for plates, every time. I plan on keeping my Aztek four or five years. Do I expect to get every cent back? Nope. But I'm not that shallow to think that parking a more expensive vehicle, spending more every year, losing more when I go to sell, will impress my neighbors. I don't know where you come from, paying more to get roughly the same effect, that's not too bright.

tonychrys · March 2001

It's funny, as a Pontiac owner I've never really seen the Aztek advertised except in the Pontiac Magazine I get once a quarter(?). It almost seems like the [non-permissible content removed] child of GM, "just keep it in the corner unitl we get rid of it."

Well, the wife and I are watching CBS the other night, in prime time, and what do we see on the screen??? You guessed it, an Azzzztek! Wow, GM spending big bucks to try to push this thing.

My 3 1/2 year old thought it was a new Power Ranger car (because it was in that toyish yellow color). Another thing I have to go out and buy for him now. Gee, thanks GM.

mark156 · March 2001

Dindak, it might not happen, but I would never say never... at my age, I've seen the unbelievable happen. Big players have tendency to gobble each other up. Who would have ever imagine that we would make it on the moon? I saw it happen in 1969 right in front of the TV. Look at the stock market, who would have thought we would have gone over 11,000. In 1929, the stock market lost 32 points. And, that was devastating.

Mark

tonychrys · March 2001

did you know that in the eary to mid 1900's there were about 1000 car companies in the U.S.??

Yes, I'm serious. I'll try to find the source on the data.

gonzo7 · March 2001

Tony- With the current discounts it may be cheaper to buy your child a real Aztek than a toy one.

gonzo7 · March 2001

A depreciation study:

Popular Honda Odyssey 1999:

Original base price 23615
Current base wholesale price 20400
two year depreciation= $3215 or 13.6%

Not too popular Pontiac Montana 1999:

Original base price 23455
Current base wholesale price 15300
two year loss: $8155 or 34.8%

Can you tell me the privilage of owning a Pontiac is worth the additional $5000 depreciation loss?
Of course not.

Which would you rather own?
Which will last longer?
Buy quality- You will save money in the long run.

P.S. The Aztek's loss will be worse- especially once GM repairs its appearance later this year.
The current one will always be an orphan.

stever · March 2001

Well, it sorta depends on your buying philosophy. I try to drive 'em forever. So depreciation matters to me only if I have to sell the car before, say, ten years. My depreciation to date on my '99 Quest is $8484 (based on Edmunds TMV if I had to sell today; private party & "clean"); purchase price was ~$22.8k. Significant hit if I get hit and have to replace it. Otherwise I'm not losing any sleep over it. I would be sitting "better" with the '99 Odyssey I drove and thought about buying, but other factors outweighed the perceived value of the van in three years. ymmv.

Oh yeah, the Quest is an orphan too.

Steve
Host
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gonzo7 · March 2001

Here's why you buy a low milage near new car and sell in a couple of years:

The same 1999 Honda Odyssey:

Base MSRP when new: 23615
Current high Blue Book: 24100!

Yes, you can make money or break even if you don't drive a car until it's worthless.

stever · March 2001

The LX I drove in Anchorage in Dec. '99 was at ~$26k when I started dickering. When they tried to switch me, I walked:-). Plus I'm a bit too "green" to trade cars every few years just so I can impress the neighbors. Again, ymmv.

btw, the "average" True Market Value for that '99 Ody LX is closer to $20k (pvt. party, "clean").

The Smart Shopper Board has some good message boards on buying new vs. used; keeping or trading, etc. Check it out. Now back to Aztek....

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

gonzo7 · March 2001

I was using a Kelley blue book that is a few months old. Some of the numbers may be slightly out of date but the Pontiac suffering triple the Honda's depreciation stays the same.

It has nothing to do with impressing the neighbors. It has to do with breaking even instead of losing very little on a car vs. a guaranteed 100% loss in the "use-it-up" strategy.

I'd rather drive a nice nearly new car for 2 years and get most of my investment back instead of driving a 10 year old car nursing the last few miles out of it in order to insure a 100% loss.

Bottom line- The Aztek is gonna lose a lot of money. Very quickly.

barresa62 · March 2001

Gonzo: You're right about the Aztek losing its value quickly. Anyone that cares to dispute this is participating in a futile exercise. Having said that, Steve (our host) and others on this site have said it pretty much is a wash if you keep the Aztek for a long time. I have to agree with them on that point. I also don't think using the Honda Odessey as an example is very good because almost no one that I know paid close to the actual retail prices. There was more mark-up going on w/these things then housing prices in a hot Seattle market! The disparity between what was actually paid and what it's worth is greater than you list. BTW, KBB is not the best source for value info. You have to be careful not to use their "excellent" condition button. It overinflates the vehicle terribly. You would be better off using Edmund's TMV as they have come the closest so far as real world values even compared to using KBB and listing vehicle under "clean" condition.

Stephen in Seattle

gonzo7 · March 2001

I used an actual book- not on-line. I compared apples to apples.
I did not correct for milage or condition since I assumed comparable condition.

theiceman · March 2001

Potential depreciation is certainly a factor that should be considered when you're buying. What weighting any one person gives it depends on their own car ownership strategy and what they are looking for in a vehicle.

The Aztek isn't cheap to buy but incentives continue to keep the purchase price reasonable - and this is almost certainly negatively affecting the current resale prices. As the redesign comes out inventories of the original will fall and the incentives will eventually disappear. Then, used 1st generation Azteks will not be competing with subsidized new ones. So, yes, the redesign could hurt future resale values of the original or, when the incentives cease on new ones, the resale value could stabilize. Who knows? None of us are graced with clairvoyance or enough of a command of all the possibilities to be categorical in this area. Still, I personally have enough doubts on this issue that I would take some convincing to purchase rather than lease if I were to buy an Aztek. Especially when the lease rates are currently so good.

BTW, checked one out today when I visited my Pontiac dealership. Impressive list of features and that Pioneer sound system rocks!

theiceman

topgn · March 2001

Resale is normally not a problem if you buy a BMW,Toyota, Mercedes, or Lexus...
However, I am wondering if the Aztek might break a new world record.>>>>>>>>>
.
For the highest depreciation of the first year production model, for ANY American made car in the last 30 years...!!!!!

I believe that I read on Intellachoice that they predictated a 50% depreciation, one year after it's introduction...

Maybe Aztek will set a record after all....
BUt I would hate to be the owner of the first model year. Say that person wanted to trade in 2001 for another auto or a real SUV, and he would be very very very UPSET>>>

OH and some of the Aztek poster's here are going to keep the Aztek for years and pass it along family tree...But just imagine in your wildest dreams that somewhere out there in the US of A, some family might want to trade the Aztek....
I know this thought is far fetched, however, it just might happen.........and the dealer will say
"well I know you paid $25,000. however, all we can give you is $11,000..." $$$$ down the drain........

topgn · March 2001

I believe that a Toyota 4Runner is also worth 50% of the retail price brand new.....

THIS IS FOR A 1996 4RUNNER>>>>>>>>>>

Save your $$$ and buy a used 4Runner ( and your family will be safe) don't waste it on a 2001 Aztek that is no longer being made... I read GM has put a stop on 2001's, and they are burning the clock to get the 2002 Aztek's out...!

topgn · March 2001

Your fuzzy math on the BMW and Aztek, makes the Bush tax plan look like chils paly...!!

topgn · March 2001

"CHILDS PLAY"

stever · March 2001

You have 30 minutes to make any changes or fixes after you post a message. Just click on the Edit button that follows your message after you post it.

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

lbthedog · March 2001

To have such esteemed financial experts here to help us with our investments. For all their rambling all I could think about was the last few times I've gone out to dinner. I've gone to McDonalds because my kid likes the place. I've gone to Joe's Crab Shack because it was entertaining and the price was reasonable. I haven't gone to many five star restaurants because that sort of stuff doesn't matter much to me or my wife. More power to those of you who do. But I can tell you something that relates to this silly board. Doesn't matter where you go, or what you buy, or how much it cost or the rest of the dribble. No matter what, it will all end up in the toilet some time or another. Now if you go to Mexican or Thai, it may be a bit more painful. Cars, trucks, dinner, it just doesn't matter. Stop trying to save someone from being themself. Has this society become that "politically correct" that we can justify criticism of others choices? I sure hope not. Being a parent has taught me things. Perspective is one of them. I also know I am not always right. But I do know what's right for me.

Can this board ever become a forum about a vehicle? It sure isn't now. This board could use a good flushing.

dindak · March 2001

mark156: "at my age, I've seen..."?? You are 42 according to your bio. You make it sound like you are 70. At any rate.. it will never happen. The only way it could is if Ford and GM merged and that won't fly for many reasons.

gonzo / topgn : The depreciation crutch again huh? If that is your sole reason for buying a vehicle, then you are not a car lover.. you're and accountant. Sure it's a factor, but a small one in my book. Further.. if you are selling your car after a year or two you are a pretty lousy accountant also.

gonzo7 · March 2001

I have, and have had, many "cool" cars. And I break even, lose VERY little, or even turn a small profit on most of them. And I never pay a penny for repairs.

"Good" cars and "Cool" cars are the ones that hold their value.

Cars that are NEITHER "cool", NOR "good", like the Aztek for example, are the kind that lose 40% of their value in a year.

And just wait until the flood of Ex-rental Azteks start hitting the market. Values will really plummet then. You'll get to subsidize Gm's giveaway's to the customers they most care about, Avis and Hertz.

I guess my not wanting to drive an Aztek for 10 years until it turns to dust makes me a bit too rational for you to comprehend.

mark156 · March 2001

Dindak, surely you not saying I'm wrong? I know my age.... 43 is coming up very fast... but being a business owner, accountant, and now being retired, I can tell you that NEVER say NEVER!!!!!

Mark

jmatero · March 2001

First, lets get the crash test record straight:

When comparing vehicles, SIDE impact ratings are the same for a Geo Metro as they are for a Lincoln Navigator. That is because, according to the NHTSA, the same barrier is used for all vehicles. The ONLY cases where you need to compare ratings to vehicles of similar weights is the Frontal crash because there is a difference between a head-on crash between a civic vs. civic and a civic vs Navigator. Most car accidents are between 2 cars not fixed barriers so that is why you need to compare weights.

Read this:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/hot/rollover/Roll010312.pdf

None-the-less, here are some facts.

Aztec Rear side Impact Rating: 3-STARS.
The following are all 5-STAR Rated:
PT Cruiser
Ford Windstar
Honda Odyssey
Mazda MPV
Toyota Sienna
Chevy Tracker
Ford Escape
Mazda Tribute
Honda CR-V
Suzuki Vitara
Honda Civic
Dodge Stratus
Honda Accord
Hyundai Sonata

In other words, passengers in the rear seats of the above listed vehicles are MUCH safer than in the back seat of an Aztek in the event of a side-impact. As for COMPARABLE frontal crash results for the driver... The Aztek got 3-STARS, the following are similar in weight and got 5-STARS:
Ford Windstar: 4058 lbs.
Honda Odyssey: 4288 lbs.
Toyota Sienna: 3932 lbs.
Nissan Pathfinder: 4131 lbs.

There is a BIG difference between 3-STARS and 5-STARS....
A 5-STAR rating means that there is a 10% or LESS chance of a serious injury. A 3-STAR means there is a 21-35% chance of a serious injury.

It should also be noted that if you were to drive an Aztek into a flat wall at 30mph, the driver would have a 21-35% chance of serious injury while in a Ford Focus 2-door, he/she would have less than 10% chance of injury. Again, since the NHTSA reports, most accidents are between 2 vehicles the above info is just to show how well different vehicles are engineered. A $13,000 Ford Focus protects it's driver much better than a Pontiac Aztek if you run both of them into fixed barriers.... AND the Aztek costs 2x the price.

dindak · March 2001

mark156 : Retired at 42?? Wow, what did you do.. win the lottery? I will say NEVER and if I am ever wrong I will buy you a steak dinner!

gonzo : Since you never mentioned any names for those cars you own that seem to "break even" or even "turn a small profit", I can only assume that you get the cars at cost, drive very expensive cars or buy your cars used. In any case... your re-sale arguments and savage attacks continue to grow old!

topgn · March 2001

Your last post was very good...The rear side impact test are important if you have children.
Most kids, including my brother's three kids, always seem to ride in the back seat...
So from your post it would indicate that if your children were riding in the back of the AZTEK and you were hit on the side, then your kids would have a 35% chance of serious injury...

While if they were in the other vehicles you mentionedn, the chance of serious injury then goes to 10%......>>>>
'
Come on folks this is a NO BRAINER...!!
DO NOT TAKE CHANCES WITH YOUR KIDS, BUY MOST VEHICLE YOU CAN AFFORD THE PROVIDE THE BEST PROTECTION FOR YOUR PRICELESS KIDS>>>>>>!!!

topgn · March 2001

No one (Aztek owners) answered my question..>?
Anyone know of any car (except Yugo>>) that will have a greater depreciation factor than a Aztek in the last 30 years...??
Or a car that was redesigned in it's second year...!!

"dink" Yea I buy cars just for resale....NOT
My BMW 328 is one of the safest cars to drive in the world, fantastic on resale, OH and Edmunds states "BMW of one the best automobiles you can buy at any price"........While Edmunds calls the Aztek "BUTT UGLY" and Pumba the Talking Pig..!!

dindak · March 2001

topgn : Name calling AND fear mongering... much better. You realize you have zero credibility here now?? Why are you here??? OH.. That's right, you don't answer that question. I'm convinced you are an ex-GM employee out for revenge. Why else would someone with a "BMW" spend so much time here.

mark156 · March 2001

hmmmmm, how did we get those flags by our names? Dindak has the Canadian, I have the US, why don't the others have it?

Just wondering, Mark

PS. Dindak, no, I didn't when the lottery. I just never said never and worked my butt off.

stever · March 2001

You gotta plug your location information into your profile to get a flag.

Let me guess; you "invested" in cars all your life and that's how you were able to retire at 40-something? :-)

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

gonzo7 · March 2001

If you spend your money wisely, you don't need to work much.

It's ironic, the posters here who say "depreciation matters" are also the ones with the most free time and passive income.

The ones who intend to drive their Azteks until they dissolve into a pile of rust and ribbed plastic are also the ones who seem the most defensive about taking sound financial advice.

Have fun at work!

P.S. Did anyone have a chance to see the "new and improved" Aztek on pg. 32 of April's Car and Driver magazine?

dindak · March 2001

What do you do in retirement at 42? I can't imagine not working at such a young age.

stever · March 2001

He reads Town Hall all day, of course. What better use can one make of their free time :-)

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

teo · March 2001

I agree, Mark really enjoys the good life! ;-)

topgn · March 2001

Well, Mark is retired at 42..good job..
Oh why is it that people with $$$$ do care about depreciation...maybe that's why we have $$$$..

Interesting, that people who care about resale and depreciation , have not purchased a Aztek..!

todd54 · March 2001

The side star ratings are different from the front impact star ratings, which anyone who bothered to check the site would know. Three star side impact rating indicates an 11 - 20 percent chance of serious injury. I believe it is incorrect to say there is a 35% chance of serious (or 20% using the correct definitions) since the chances are given as a range of probabilities not discrete probabilities. I'm not a statistician however so I may be wrong.

Jmatero, what is incorrect? In post 1637 you attempted to compare the front impact ratings of a number of vehicles of very dissimilar weight. The NHTSA and IIHS sites specifically dismiss such comparisons. I called you on it and cited the relevant passages from the pages in question. Nothing incorrect there.

Now you have listed a number of vehicles that got better ratings than the Aztek. Nothing wrong with reiterating common knowledge. Congratulations on stating the obvious.

Thanks for whatever was in the rollover link, but for some reason my browser wouldn't open the pdf file.

Your subjective assertion that the back seats of the listed cars are "MUCH" safer is suspect. The side impact ratings are scored on a narrower scale than the front impact ratings (Something you are either unaware of or conveniently neglect to mention) and the differences between the ratings commensurately less.

After spending a large portion of post 1671 agreeing with and reinforcing my argument that front impact comparisons are only valid between vehicles of similar weights you proceed to try and compare running a Focus and Aztek into a fixed barriers. Why? The comparison is pointless since you yourself admit in the first paragraph of that post: "Most car accidents are between 2 cars not fixed barriers" and later: "the NHTSA reports, most accidents are between 2 vehicles". These tests are about automobiles colliding with other automobiles not about automobiles running into walls, or even trees, light posts or telephone poles.

Anyway, I'm out of here for the weekend, hope everybody has a nice one.

Todd

todd54 · March 2001

Interesting, that people who care about resale and depreciation , have not purchased a Aztek..!

What is interesting about something this obvious? Those who care about resale and depreciation research the factors that are important to them. They probably would not choose an Aztek based on those criteria.

Others for whom resale and depreciation are not important, choose based on different criteria. I chose my mine based on comfort, mileage, cargo capacity, AWD capability, and, admittedly, on the whistles and bells. After three weeks of driving I enjoy mine immensely and hope to keep it for many years to come.

Todd, really out of here now

lbthedog · March 2001

Looked at the ratings. Are you really impressed by the Focus? One "star" for rear passenger? Hey go tell the Focus board about it. Yes the Focus protects the driver, it just kills the rear passengers instead. I haven't seen any postings about crash tests anywhere else but here. I suggest you study all the results and post on the boards with the worst results first. After you are done, I would consider your criticism valid. I have no fear about placing my family in an Aztek. Like GMdrone, I have witnessed barrier tests. I've seen the results. To repeatedly come here to try and scare owners, I hope you sleep well at night. You're hiding something.

I don't have a Focus, or BMW, or Lexus or whatever car some people claim to have this week. But I also don't go on those boards and insult those people. Does driving somebody else down make some body "better"? Or do those individuals have such a low opinion of themselves they have to find an easy target? Now really Topgonzo, do your posts make you feel good? That's a sad comment about you.

I do not consider myself to be a "bully" on these boards. Neither am I a child. But I am stubborn. I will not allow the children or bullies to drive me out. I don't mind the jokes about how "butt ugly" the Aztek is. But lies and fabrication are not acceptable. I thought I saw a board being created just for the "bashers". I won't go there and pick a fight. But I will defend what I consider "my turf".

teo · March 2001

People that can afford to retire early in life have a primary financial concern and that is to SAVE money. Not everyone shares your views of *success* and *money management*. People that have healthy bank accounts don't throw their money on fancy cars or other silly items often associated to the Noveau Riche and the Noveau Stupid.

Ever read the book, "The Millionare next door"?...Since you claim to be a financial wizard (So far nothing that you have said in this forum consistently supports that evidence)I would suggest for you to read it...surprise, surprise...most of these wealthy individuals drive around in Ford Tauruses, Chevys, Dodges and other vehicles classified under your *junkyard* standards. These individuals live well below their means, not above and beyond like most individuals in this country seem to have no problem with. The records amounts of consumer credit and loan debts are at all time high in this country....simply because a Chevy, Honda or Toyota won't do...we MUST! drive in BMW's Mercedes and other things that 60% of the population could never afford..we have to impress the neighboors even if we end up in the trap of bankruptcy!

cars are depreciating items from Kia to Mercedes Benz and everything in between.

Maybe the only cars that are TRUE investments are certain classics and European exotics of the caliber of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, etc.

teo · March 2001

So, your comment doesn't apply to me at all. Actually, to me safety is paramount as well. My '01 Impala LS has consistently performed extremely well on crast test scores:

5 Stars front

4 Stars Side (On models without side airbags, mine does; however)

Excellent Police Cruiser grade brakes.

All speed Traction control

Quick ratio steering

Superb Suspension tuning and response

OnStar included standard in the package.

$21K, not bad huh?

And...spare the "Resale" value speech, ok?

Are you a BMW/Lexus dealer salesman or sales manager?

BMW best in the world...whatever my friend, quit drinking that Jack Daniels during working hours..;-)

bdreggors · March 2001

Most people who "own" first-tier Lexus, Mercedes-Benz, Jaguar and BMW cars don't actually "own" them. $399 a month can get ANYONE a Bimmer.

BTW: I find it more and more interesting how some people keep having to bash a certain vehicle without even owning one. And there are quite a few irrelevant posts trying to convince people not to buy an Aztek or 'face a certain cataclismic injury in an accident' or whatever. Come on, folks, this isn't a Ralph Nader Wannabe contest...if you want to debate the Aztek, debate the FACTS.

barresa62 · March 2001

#1 The Aztek is not a safe vehicle according to the available crash data(everyone insert your whine here)

#2 The Aztek has poor resale value (based on what you ask....see #3)

#3 The Aztek been a sales disappointment for GM and in the marketplace.

Just to help everyone get back on track. :-)

Stephen

topgn · March 2001

"quit drinking that jack Daniels during working hours"

Now iF I posted that to someone, my post would have been deleted by now...!~

However, enjoy your Impala, except during a offset crash test the IIHS did NOT give the Impala a "best pick" in fact during the offset crash, the leg area could receive "major damage"..
NOW BMW 3 series received "BEST PICK"....

In relation to the Aztek/Montana MInivan, which came in DEAD last, the BMW X/5 was rated as
"the best automobile tested ever by IIHS"

jmatero · March 2001

Todd was correct in stating the Side=impact star ratings are different than the front. I apologize for the incorrect information I provided earlier.

For the record, the Ford Focus 2-door has a 4-star driver frontal rating and the 4-door rear side rating is 4-star.

For clarification.... Children riding in the back seat of a Pontiac Aztek are 2x-4x likely to suffer serious injury than Children riding in the rear of a Honda Civic. (Civic = <5% Chance, Aztek 11-20% chance). The results I gave earlier actually made the Aztek seem SAFER than the correct numbers I'm giving now. Thanks for clearing this up todd!!

By the way, you were incorrect in suggesting side impact ratings have to be compared to similar-weight/class vehicles. This is incorrect. Side-impact ratings are the same for a Chevy Suburban as they are for a Geo Metro. The same barrier is used for all vehicles and the weight of the car is not an issue because, unlike the frontal tests, the cars are not moving when they impact.

lbthedog · March 2001

To the self appointed but never educated in engineering prophets on this board:

No need post a long drawn out stat sheet, this is what you are saying: You say I am trying to hurt my family.

That is the worst thing anybody has ever said to me.

You're not engineers. How can you draw such conclusions?

I've figured out how to solve your "resale" issue. I'll buy another one at one of your "low values" and average out the price over two. It'll be so cheap that even you couldn't lose any money on it.

mark156 · March 2001

I was with a friend of mine today looking at a new SUV because his Jeep is coming off lease. We looked at the Lexus RX300, Mercedes ML and the new 2002 Ford Explorer/Mercury Mountaineer. I suggested he look at the Pontiac Aztek but he just looked at me and said no way, it's not a nice looking vehicle. (I have not told him that I visit this site) So, he has no idea on the resale/sales numbers of the Aztek; that was just his unbiased response.

Have any of you ever sat in a Ford Excursion...wow, that thing is huge! I couldn't imagine parking that thing in a parking garage in LA. Anyway, I know this post is somewhat off topic, but I thought the new Ford Explorer was pretty nice for $30,0000 list(2wd,loaded,clothe,v6 210hp) and a third seat!

Mark

misterjay · March 2001

Out of idle curiosity, I went to a dealer to actually look at one of these Aztek things. I have been waiting to actually see one on the road, and never have because NOBODY has ever actually bought one, thank goodness.
Well, I went to the dealer and was astonished....it is much uglier in person than it is in the car magazine pictures. General Motors, you have done it again. What a clueless company. The designer of this abomination and all of his bosses should be fired....but, knowing GM, they were probably promoted.

topgn · March 2001

I wonder how the Expetition fares in comparison to the Aztek....My brother always has three kids in the backseat...???

"misterjay" you and 99% of the public, feel that way"...!

gonzo7 · March 2001

Wayne Cherry, the father of the Aztek, unquestionably a huge failure, was actually promoted by GM.

jkidd2 · March 2001

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/carnews/0401_carnews_upfront_aztek.xml

tonychrys · March 2001

LOL! What an abomination!

Pontiac Aztek

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