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Crossover SUV Comparison

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  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    It is quite smart for taxi companies to use them since most driving is city driving, and they can get over 30mpg's. Looks like the cab companies can rake in the profits. But, then again, I'm sure they can pick up a Crown Vic for a heck of a lot less then an Escape Hybrid. So, I guess the money might take a while to roll in and show a more profitable bottom line.

    The original incentive for taxi companies in NYC was that the hackney division sold the medallions at a discounted price of just over $220,000 - about 2/3 off the market price of a medallion. The profit for the taxi company comes from paying that medallion off and leasing the cab out.

    As for the fuel issue - it's the drivers that lease the cabs that pay for the fuel and they are saving close to 50% of what they typically spend in a day ($50-$100).

    http://www.hybridcars.com/fleets/hybrid-taxicabs.html
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    It's Tuesday so that means mazda chat time again. Stop in and meet and greet with your fellow Mazda lovers. Or just stop by for a little fun and car problem chat diagnosis. (One of our favorite games..heh)

    The Mazda Club Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Very informative Thanks
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm a fan of diesels, even did a paper on Rudolf Diesel himself back in college. The range and torque are dreamy.

    Diesel prices near me, however, and frightening. Cheapest near me is $4.199. Ouch. Gas costs 19% less right now by my math (and in my zip code). When I shopped around a greater area on gasbuddy.com, I found the same advantage for gas.

    Problem is 19% eats up more than half your fuel savings right up front. Diesels cost more to buy. I'm sure resale is better, but if demand increases as more diesel vehicles are offered, it could get worse.

    Hopefully this is a short-term phenomenom, but who knows? We'd need a crystal ball.

    At the very least, you would still have better durability, more range, better resale, etc. Diesels still have advantages. Sadly, your cost-per-mile to fuel up may not be any better than some gassers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't want to discuss this here, so I'll offer a link instead:

    steve_, "What will you do when gas price rises above $4 a gallon?" #5391, 24 Mar 2008 7:43 pm

    It's a hot topic over there, hop on over if interested.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Problem is 19% eats up more than half your fuel savings right up front. Diesels cost more to buy. I'm sure resale is better, but if demand increases as more diesel vehicles are offered, it could get worse.

    Hopefully this is a short-term phenomenom, but who knows? We'd need a crystal ball.

    This column was in last month's C&D. If Csaba is right then don't expect to see too many high volume diesels anytime soon. That's not to say they won't be offered as optional engines in high volume models, but definitely not standard. The next Honda Pilot comes to mind for me.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    interesting to see it represented graphically

    http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/03/thumb1280x1280_236417- 7540_0e30819365_o.jpg
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have the print copy and haven't even read that yet. I'll save the read for the print copy, but thanks for the heads-up.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting and confusing at the same time. Globalization is here to stay.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Honda seems to be the least-linked to the rest of the world... I can't see the small link going down from Honda into Hyundai territory. What is it? (I'm on a small monitor currently).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've zoomed in with a 19" monitor, and it's not legible at all. Looks like a red logo with some (probably) Korean characters to the right.

    Perhaps Honda supplies a diesel engine to one of Hyundai's partners?

    For a while there you could have had a line from Honda to Saturn for the 3.5l V6 they supplied. And from Izusu to Honda for the Trooper and Rodeo clones.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    "RX designed as performance wagon"

    Definitely not. This is the case for the GS and upcoming LS hybrids, but not for the RX. The RX is for fuel saving (though it doesn't do that great a job). It has the same displacement as the old Highlander. If you want performance (or what ever performance you can get in a Lexus RX) you should go for the regular V6. It makes more power than the Hybrid. And I believe it's lighter. As for the corolla, it will save fuel. But I wouldn't go near thatwith my checkbook. It's my least favorite small sedan. I'd much rather have a Civic or a Mazda 3.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    "It's entry to the market marrks the phase out of the underappreciated Taurus X"

    So it is coming- if this guy has any authority in the auto motive press world. I'm not sure what to say abou the article. He was a little too wrapped up in his "hipster" joke for him to really say anything.

    As for the Flex, sounds like it will be nice, and a step up from what they have now, but there is simply no way this could take the place of a minivan. Ford's still got a bit to do if they want a true van-replacement CUV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I just read an article about how Ford and GM abandoned that segment and now Honda, Toyota, and Dodge are basically enjoying a 700,000 sales/year segment all to themselves.

    I don't think the Journey will be a hit the way the Lambdas are, though. The manufacturers simply have a different set of priorities.

    The RX400H does use the old 3.3l V6 (3MZ in Toyota-speak), which is too bad. The 3.5l (2GR) is a lot more powerful and in most cases slightly more efficient. Plus, the GS hybrid has the 2GR engine, so why Toyota didn't invest in getting that more modern mill in the RX hybrid I just don't understand.

    To top it off, the engine is supposedly lighter and costs a lot less to build. Maybe it was a capacity limitation? :confuse:

    Time to retire the 3MZ engine completely.
  • saabturboidsaabturboid Member Posts: 178
    I'm a Freestyle (now called Taurus X) owner. Should Ford phase out the Taurus X as they begin selling the Flex they will be phasing me out as a Ford owner as well. The Flex is an ugly oversized station wagon, along the lines of the Country Squire of the 60s and 70s. The Taurus X is a modern looking and driving crossover that while under appreciated by the public has met the needs and wants of my family perfectly. A Flex will not find its way to my driveway.

    - Chad
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There simply weren't enough people like you.

    In the Forester threads we're complaining that Subaru dropped the manual transmission option from the turbo models, but SoA answered back saying they only sold 10 per month nationwide.

    It was our fault for not buying enough of them.

    Whether the Flex will succeed where the Freestyle/Taurus X failed we'll have to wait and see. The latter were competent yet fairly anonymous.

    The Flex is not anonymous at all - people will love it or hate it. Ford is gambling that it will be noticed and get on more buyers' radars.

    I happen to like the Flex more. It looks like a super-sized Mini Cooper. A dose of personality may help it sell better, at least Ford hopes so.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I just read an article about how Ford and GM abandoned that segment and now Honda, Toyota, and Dodge are basically enjoying a 700,000 sales/year segment all to themselves.


    True. However minivan sales peaked in 2000 at 1.37 million sales that year and have been down ever since. CUV sales OTOH are up up up and that's what Ford and GM are aiming at now I'd guess.

    This probably sounds familiar because they both did the same thing when the SUV craze took hold of our Nation. At least this time they are concentrating somewhat more on their cars so they have something to fall back on if/when the CUV craze dies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder how big the crossover segment will get. What's the volume now?

    The catch is there is a lot more competitors fighting for pieces of that pie.
  • saabturboidsaabturboid Member Posts: 178
    ateixeria wrote: There simply weren't enough people like you

    I disagree. I think there are plenty of people out there like me, but it seems at best Ford had no idea how to market this vehicle, and at worst didn't market it. The only advertising I ever saw for the Freestyle surrounded around a divorced family who came together for a brief time and drive around in the Freestyle before they go their separate ways again. I hope who ever came up with that concept to sell a vehicle has now found a different career.

    Ford also was an early adopter of the CUV concept before most people knew what one was. Instead of capitalizing on this new category of vehicles with a good marketing campaign, it seems they thought people would figure it out for themselves. All of this while most Ford dealers had 30 Explorers on the lot but only 1 or 2 Freestyles. It never felt like Ford wanted the Freestyle to succeed, or perhaps they were scared to sacrifice more profitable Explorer sales. Who knows, but what ever the case I believe many more people would have loved the vehicle had they known about it and given it a try. Today it is too late since there is now substantial competition and the Freestyle/Taurus X is considered a lame duck vehicle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't recall ever seeing an ad for the Freestyle, so I won't disagree.

    I do think Ford needed to inject a bit more personality, though, especially if they expected the vehicle to sell itself without much marketing support.
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    Freestyle, Explorer, Expedition... I think I know what Ford has been thinking since the first Explorer hit the road in about the '91 model year. Our buyer wants the Explorer look, on the Explorer, Expedition and the Freestyle as well. There was some difference in the early 90s Explorer you could call the 1st generation, the second generation and lastly the current generation....BUT they all look like an Explorer...you can tell by the looks, and they have been afraid to change it. Even the Freestyle looks like a current generation Explorer, just lowered a little and maybe a little softer look. Explorer (as well as Expedition and Freestyle) fans would probably want it to stay that way, or at least Ford thought that. So, they kept making the SUV look popularized by Explorer.

    Now with a different look becoming popular on CUV/SUVs, the Explorer look is maybe not as popular as in the past. Edge and perhaps Flex are more in the modern look, either you like it or not. I don't think I would call the Freestyle a 'modern looking crossover'...but it's not bad for an Explorer looking wagon...great value for the utility. But it still looks like an Explorer...one disadvantage is that it looks as if it has 15" rims where a lot of the look now is for the larger rims.

    So, if you are getting phased out by Ford, where will you go for your next vehicle? Just curious.

    Good day.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point about the family resemblance. What helped at first, hurt later on as people wanted something fresh looking.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I wonder how big the crossover segment will get. What's the volume now?

    I'm not sure what the current volume is but the predictions are saying CUV sales should go over 3 million this year. Sales have been rising between 10 and 20 percent each year for the past few years probably mostly due to new models being introduced constantly.

    Just look at Ford's March 2008 sales. SUVs and trucks in general are down but their CUVs are up save for the TX.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    3 million is one *big* pie.

    Still, there's a lot more competition.

    Scoop from the Straightline Blog: the Outlander's 6 speed is getting the dual-clutch treatment, a la VW's DSG gearbox.

    Pretty cool, check it out:

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/.eea5d4c/2
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    That is good news about the DSG! The only other mainstream mfrs I've seen even planning or using them are VW and Ford. I think VW uses one now right? And Ford supposedly going to use the one Volvo is using which was developed with Getrag.

    I'm a manual tranny guy myself but I'd take a DSG if one were offered. With some kind of manua control of course. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Same here, but most family cars only come with automatics anyway, so we don't have any other choice.

    I'd take a DSG over an regular automatic.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Probably the same as the one in the Evo - doubt Mitsu has the resources to pay for the development of more than one such unit. It was farmed out too, but don't recall reading who the 3rd party supplier was.
  • saabturboidsaabturboid Member Posts: 178
    wlbrown9 wrote:

    But it still looks like an Explorer...one disadvantage is that it looks as if it has 15" rims where a lot of the look now is for the larger rims.

    So, if you are getting phased out by Ford, where will you go for your next vehicle? Just curious.

    The Freestyle looks a little like an Explorer but the Taurus X certainly doesn't. The base wheels on the Freestyle/Taurus X are 17" and the Limited come with 18"s.

    And regarding our next family vehicle, I suspect we'll keep driving the Freestyle for a couple more years (We currently have an '05 with 52k miles on it), and then maybe pick up a last year Taurus X if Ford does phase them out. After that, who knows? I'd really like a Diesel crossover that gets 40mpg on the highway. ;)

    - Chad
  • wlbrown9wlbrown9 Member Posts: 867
    "The Freestyle looks a little like an Explorer but the Taurus X certainly doesn't. The base wheels on the Freestyle/Taurus X are 17" and the Limited come with 18"s. "

    The Freestyle/Taurus X are listed as coming with 17" & 18" for 2007/2008. The ones I see around Memphis look like they have smaller ones...might just be the impression the design gives.

    Well, to quote the Edmunds review on the Taurus X:

    "The 2008 Ford Taurus X is essentially a relabeled version of last year's Freestyle, but with the new name comes a new look and several improvements. "

    I would agree the Flex does not look like an Explorer, but the Freestyle/Taurus X does, at least to me. ( I think the Flex looks like someone took my Trooper and stretched it out a little and chopped it down a little shorter. I really need to see one to get the real feel for if I like it or not, pictures only do so much.)
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "I think the Flex looks like someone took my Trooper and stretched it out a little and chopped it down a little shorter"

    I vote for xxxxl mini cooper for my $.02
  • larryqwlarryqw Member Posts: 52
    I'm also a big fan of the Taurus X, and bought a T-X Limited two months ago. I also looked a lot at the Flex but just didn't like the square look of it. My nickname for the Flex is the maxi-mini.

    It looks like Ford may continue the T-X for another year into 2009, since the plant is making Taurus Sedans anyway, the production is done, and there's minimal cost in keeping it going, as long as they don't advertise, which they don't. (I can't believe the Divorced Dad commercial. Divorce is about as warm feeling as baby killing. Was Ford trying to kill the sales!? ) Also, Ford may want to keep the T-X around in case the Flex is too radical and doesn't sell. A CYA thing.

    In 2010, it looks like the T-X will morph with the Explorer into the Explorer America concept. This is the Explorer moved from a truck Body-on-Frame to the Taurus D32 unibody car-like platform. It will have a lot of the features of the Taurus X in a modern but less boxy look. This may be appealing to those like me who don't like the Flex style.
  • kyushujetkyushujet Member Posts: 2
    I just got a 08 Ford Taurus X SEL. On occasion when I come to a stop, I get a feeling like the car will not stop. One time I noticed that when my foot was pressing the brake, it had caught the edge of the gas pedal, and I was also pressing the gas at the same time. But now that I have been conscious of not doing that, I still get the feeling like the car doesn't want to slow down when I'm braking. I get a feeling that the car is downshifting or something like that and it seems to lurch forward or that the engine slightly revs up. Is anyone else having this problem?
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    my size 13 feet have caught both the gas & brake before. I suspect despite you consciously trying to avoid the situation you still might be doing it occasionally...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    All it needs is a Union Jack on the roof.

    I bet it would look really cool with one, too.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    All it needs is a Union Jack on the roof.

    I bet it would look really cool with one, too.

    A Jolly Roger would be my choice. :shades:
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    After hearing about this new turbo engine Ford has in the wings (and I have heard other similar stories hear and there from other companies) I'm just wondering why others aren't doing this. Especially GM. They are doing so well right now, I just hope they don't get too caught up in this hybrid hubub, because as various Toyotas prove, hubub is what it is. MPG isn't improved all that much, except in the Prius. Just think, if the lambdas had turbos like this, that model would have waiting lists like the Prius. Just a thought.
  • vad1819vad1819 Member Posts: 309
    Unbelievable success, even the fuel price are high.
    http://editorial.autos.msn.com/listarticle.aspx?cp-documentid=434652

    So I don't know what full size CUV get award, but Acadia is defiantly number one in full size CUV's categories.
    Plus, Lambdas win Motorweek's Drivers Choice Award: Best Crossover, 2nd year in a row.
    http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/dc2008/
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    After hearing about this new turbo engine Ford has in the wings (and I have heard other similar stories hear and there from other companies) I'm just wondering why others aren't doing this.

    Click here for more info on which Fords will be getting the EcoBoost in the near future. Note that the Flex is one.

    MT has been wrong about some things recently though so I'd wait for a second opinion myself. ;)

    I just hope they don't get too caught up in this hybrid hubub, because as various Toyotas prove, hubub is what it is.

    I agree. They still seem to be pushing E85 hard too. That has always been a mystery to me because it offers no fuel or money savings but now my pizzas cost more because farmers are growing more corn than wheat! OK, that's an oversimplification of the problem but you get the drift. :shades:
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    "I agree. They still seem to be pushing E85 hard too. That has always been a mystery to me because it offers no fuel or money savings but now my pizzas cost more because farmers are growing more corn than wheat! OK, that's an oversimplification of the problem but you get the drift."

    the lunatic's are running the asylum as they say...

    diesel, to a white courtesy phone, diesel please pick up...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm generally pro-diesel but they have to do something about the current prices.

    Around me the price differential has crept up to 90 cents per gallon (diesel vs. 87 octane gas). :(

    Perhaps that will drop as heating oil demand drops.
  • freealfasfreealfas Member Posts: 652
    part of the price difference might be due to the fact they can't/don't cut it with ethanol...I don't think(someone correct me if I'm wrong)

    the other is to disuade it's popular acceptance...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Indy truckers are peeved. Let's see what happens, hopefully this is a short-term phenomenon.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    In my neck of the woods, I have yet to see any fuel station that offers E85. Plus, I have heard that E85 costs just as much as gas, and is dreadful in terms of fuel economy. Makes no sense to buy E85, unless you care about being green. I'm all about the environment, however, the green I can about is the green that I can keep in my pocket!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Now that's my kind of green.

    While we're on the subject of spending as little as possible, ALG announced its 2007 Residual Value Awards, and for CUV the winner was the Subaru Tribeca:

    https://www.alg.com/default.aspx?sid=29

    Subaru gambled on high residuals for their leases, so I guess the strategy paid off.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    In my neck of the woods, I have yet to see any fuel station that offers E85. Plus, I have heard that E85 costs just as much as gas, and is dreadful in terms of fuel economy.

    Same here, but I am told that there are 1 or 2 in the greater Pittsburgh area which do carry it. Also same as you, I'm told that it costs more than regular gas and it is widely known that you do lose a few M'sPG by putting it in your tank.

    Why would anyone want that? Yet every day I'm behind a big GM or Dodge truck or SUV which has a big shiny E85 badge on it. Ford has at least backed off of that bandwagon for the most part. I think they still sell SUVs and trucks that are capable of running the fuel, but they don't seem to be advertising it anymore through the media or via a badge on the vehicle.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    So here we have the first spy photo of the 2010 North American Ford Taurus.
    image

    Yes it looks a lot like the Euro Mondeo only a bit bigger. Since the TX has pretty much been cancelled after MY09 (not officially yet though) imagine what the TX could have been...

    (2008 Euro Mondeo wagon prototype)
    image
    image
    image
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't take this personally but that first pic is ugly. Reminds me way too much of the Chrysler Sebring.
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    It is hard to tell what it really looks like but I actually like it. Anything (other than the original Tribeca) is better than the boring Ford same old, same old.
  • albookalbook Member Posts: 1,282
    Congrats! You found a way to tie something totally irrelevant to the topic in. No- I'm not being sarcastic. I wanted to put that picture here earlier today but couldn't figure out how to do it without being totally awkward and out of place.

    Looking at the concept- I'm not so sure. Don't get me wrong, it's leaps and bounds over the current Taurus is terms of looks. Bit it looks as if they are still trying to get that elevated stance, as it looks to tall. I was hoping for something a little more broad shouldered and sporty-not totally 300C/G8, but from what I see, I'd rather have a Camry. Ford better not screw up again. As for what the Wagon, forget what the Taurus could have been. How about what the upcoming Flex should be?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Well, official pictures are out of the 09 Pilot, and I must say, it is just ugly. The interior is so "rubber maid" looking, and very complex. Edmunds also seems to think it will be getting Hondas new 3.5L w/ VCM like in the 08 Accord. Since chatter in the Accord threads seem to indicate that the VCM system has many flaws ranging from unimpressive fuel economy, un smooth transition from cylinder to cylinder, shutters, and basically overall unrefinement. Honda is telling these unhappy owners that the system is operating properly. What does this mean to you? Expect there to be a Pilot VCM Problem thread frequently visited.
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