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Comments
The old 4WD one has a rating of 15/20, so the VCM (among other tweaks possibly) has improved mileage from 15/20 to 16/22.
I'm afraid you got it mixed up.
Great vehicle in terms of space, design, tranquility, and driving dynamics.
The one thing that I dislike is the lack of accessories.
One can't find many accessories from Mazda or on aftermarket.
For example, one can hardly find any sidestep (maybe because CX9 is lower than most others) or running board even at its 2nd year in USA. In contrast, the new Pilot offers FOUR different side steps/running boards from Honda when it was just released. For those who are thinking of buying, please take this into consideration it this is important to you.
That said, I still love my CX-9. It drives like a sports sedan that can haul 7 people + cargo. Give Mazda a chance when cross-shopping. Mazda is selling them at $1500 BELOW INVOICE. Be an informed shopper!
A Taurus X is bigger and uses more gas, and may be more car than they wanted. They aren't that cheap, either.
Talk about going even bigger, the Acadia/Outlook has competition now with the huge Ford Flex some are talking about in this forum. Based on the Freestyle/TaurusX/Volvo platform, that Flex is one big slab-sided bus if there ever was one. Paint it yellow and take the neighborhood kids to school.
I think you're being confused by the pictures of the Flex. Go see one in person (a lot of dealers have one or two by now) and you'll most likely change your mind. The Flex is a good bit shorter than the Lamdas and does not have the same exterior bulk to it nor does it look as heavy (even though it is). I was actually surprised by how small the Flex looked in person when it looked so large in the pictures.
Comparison Click Here...
I saw a Flex at an auto show this year. The slab sides did make it look like the Incredible Hulk version of the mini-cooper. Too big for me, but not by much. I prefer the TaurusX/Freestyle size. Any vehicle bigger than my Freestyle better be a truck (my other vehicle is an '05 F150). You could use the Flex as a school bus, as minivans do now. Good large-family vehicle.
Of course, the real problem with the Flex is the horrible aerodynamics. At least the Freestyle, TaurusX, and Acadia make some attempt at streamlining. It looks like the Flex exterior was designed to go no faster than 45 mph, given the flat surfaces. I wonder if wind noise will be a problem with such a simple shape. I would have liked it if the front end looked a little like the Murano instead of a brick.
I wonder if wind noise will be a problem with such a simple shape.
Read the reviews. It's as quiet as a tomb inside. And not because it looks somewhat like one. :P
I personally think it looks fantastic in person and would love to own one. Price will be the big issue for us when we're due for a new vehicle in a few months. Now that Ford has opted to package more into the 3 trim levels and offer fewer a la carte options, getting one equipped the way I want drives the price close to $40k. I can get all the space I need in an Explorer or a TX and save about $10k and $5k respecitvely in doing so. That pays for a lot of gas.
Ironically the only Subaru in my driveway is my wife's Forester.
The Taurus X was not even close to what she wanted. We were looking for something significantly smaller than the minivan, and the Forester is a full 20" shorter in length than the X. Plus we put fuel efficiency as a top priority, though it had to be a wagon bodystyle and have AWD. EPA city for the Forester is 20mpg vs. 15 for the X, a huge difference.
People don't realize how compact the Forester is - it's shorter than the Chevy Cobalt in overall length. This tidy size plus excellent visibility make it a cinch to maneuver and park, yet it's still roomy inside (maybe that's why people think it's big?).
Basically we already have a big car.
To be honest if I shop at the Ford dealer to replace the van (not any time soon, mind you) I would drive a Flex. I like the gigantic Mini Cooper look it has.
Don't say that around volvomax. I'll let the two of you debate this, here's his position:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee9c851/35585
We really wanted something compact this time around. Big inside, but small outside, for sure.
I did test drive a Freestyle before we purchased our Minivan.
Oops I said the M-word again.
In reality, a minivan will usually do the job better than a crossover. My Freestyle, however, is almost a boxy minivan anyway, so I go crossover withough giving up much.
I didn't comment on this when you originally posted it because the proof wasn't out yet. You can safely retract that entire statement now. :P Also, read any first drive of the Flex and you'll find that it is extremely quiet inside. No road noise at all.
Ford Flex Aerodynamics
Also remember that crosswinds are not a part of the drag coefficient tests, since the straight front posts with little tumble-home and little rake will make off-axis crosswind noise worse. In the real world, the wind rarely cooperates and passes directly in line with the front sharp edges on the fenders. Wait til somebody evaluates the wind noise off those front pillars.
The Flex is as wide as a full-sized pickup truck. This is a large vehicle. Good luck parking that yellow bus crossover. For people who need a whopper, this is not a bad choice. I saw one at an auto show last April, and one recently in a parking lot, and it looks the same as its pictures.
Maybe, but all they were pointing out is that the Ford engineers worked hard and went the extra mile to make something that looks like it would push a lot of air into something that really doesn't. It fooled you and many others I would imagine. It's also something Ford would not have done a few years ago I think we can all agree.
Also remember that crosswinds are not a part of the drag coefficient tests, since the straight front posts with little tumble-home and little rake will make off-axis crosswind noise worse. In the real world, the wind rarely cooperates and passes directly in line with the front sharp edges on the fenders. Wait til somebody evaluates the wind noise off those front pillars.
None of the reviewers, from multiple sources, mentioned any wind noise at the A-pillars specifically. All did mention that it is extremely quiet inside though. So you may be right, but I haven't read any complaints yet. Also, I havn't read a review of any Flex other than a Limited model with the double coated front glass. The SE and SEL may be a bit louder inside without that feature which is only available on the Limited trim.
I have always had my eye on the Acadia, from when a lady at my church replaced her Suburban with one and has been raving ever since. But I wanted to test the other competitors just to be sure. First I drove the Highlander. It was uninspiring,and too small. I was extremely disapointed by the lack of inovations, like a split third row. I drove the Q7, which was too truck like for me, and the new MDX, which even though it was sortier, I felt it was a step back from my MDX. I'm not a big fan of the CX-9's styling (and styling is high on my list- behind safety and comfort, because I can't wake up to something I don't like to look at everyday), but it did handle nice. The third row was not comfortable, especially for a vehicle the size of an Acadia. Just to do something, I tested the Taurus X, even though I knew there was no way I would buy one. It took second place in seating comfort and I liked how peppy the engine was in traffic, but I was dissapointed in cargo space for a vehicle that big, and I hate that shaving razor grille. However, I would get that before I get the Flex, which is just heavier, slower and more expensive(from what I've read), withough adding much room inside. And I think Ford stole the idea of reinventing the minivan in stylish(?) wagon form from Mercedes. I liked the R-class and thought it was a ridiculous amount of Mercedes for only 45,000. I may be among the few who like the styling as I think it looks like Mercedes took a minivan and gave it some CLS styling. It was one of the most comfortable passenger wise, but then I started comparing it to the Buick Enclave, which despite being slightly shorter in length, was larger in every interior dimension, and when comparably equipped, the Enclave CXL prices at 39,000 while the R350 would cost 58,000 (!!!!). So the Enclave won that. I was also impressed when some friends who's son goes to school with our kids said they compared it with big luxury players like the Lexus RX/GX, Audi Q7 and the Mercedes Benz GL and the Enclave was their choice. But I like the way Acadia looks more than the Enclave so I was back at the Acadia. I looked at the Journey, but I already knew it was too small inside to be a real contender. The only other CUV left to drive was the new Pilot. That CUV completely turns me off, but not only did my wife beg me to drive it, but when I said yes, she brought one of her best friends who is a diehard Honda person. I knew my wife would think of me as the bad guy after I said absolutely not after her girlfriend had her convinced the Pilot was the best choice. But the car had no pickup and handled truck like. The interior was way too busy. Her friend actually agreed with me and said she didn't like it. She like her '06 Pilot better. I was totally shocked.
I finally took my wife to drive the Acadia and she loved it. The vehicles I am replacing are a 1999 Grand Caravan and a 2004 Acura MDX. The Acadia almost seamlessly replaces both. No vehicle is as versatile or comfortable as a minivan, but the Acadia does it best. And my wife and I love the MDX's bad weather handling and upscale interior so much that we sometimes fight over it (and my daily driver is a Mercedes E350!). The Acadia drives just as well and is almost as quick. I was dreading us test driving it in the rain as it might affect my wife's oppinion of it, but it really showed out. It should be just as quick as our MDX quick when GM puts the new direct injection V6 under the hood. I felt it had a great ride, and the interior was high quality. I also liked the seating configuration like that of a minivan. So this fall I will be getting a GMC Acadia, though I'm still not sure if I will trade my MDX in with the van.
If you want a big one, the Acadia is a good choice. I have an '05 Freestyle (TaurusX ancestor) and it has plenty of room and weighs just under 4000 lbs, getting between 20 and 27 MPG with a smoothe CVT tranny. The Saturn version of the Acadia, the Saturn Outlook, is a little cheaper than an Acadia so I'd check that one out. I think you are right waiting for an '09 model with direct injection. The fuel economy should go up by 1 MPG with direct injection. The '09 Chevy Traverse, yet another flavor of Acadia, comes out soon and might be priced right where the Saturn is. A sale/discount on an Acadia might make it competitive with the Saturn/Chevy versions. The Enclave seems to be for those who like their GMC-clones gold-plated and are willing to pay for it. I usually like to buy my cars stripped of frivolous options, so the base price means a lot to me. I got my Freestyle new 3 years ago for $22,500 at a discount, a base model except for traction control and extra side/roof airbags for safety.
Anyone else experience this in a VC? I haven't driven it yet and was wondering if the handling was a little sloppy or if he's just not used to it yet. But it has been in his garage nearly a year now.
My FIL was complaining about his '07 Veracruz Limited the other night. Specifically the way it handled on the highway and how much body roll/lean it has. He said it rolls/leans so much that he feels he has to slow down around some of the larger bends on the highway. His previous 2 vehicles were Explorers (an '04 and an '06 V8) and he had no complaints about them. At least not with the handling anyway
Perhaps that is why it is called Veracruz and not a Veracorner....
Seriously though, the Veracruz is a unibody vehicle with suspension tuning to be more like a car than a truck. Your FIL is probably used to truck like cornering from the body on frame Explorer. There is probably nothing wrong with the suspension on the Veracruz. It's just the way it is tuned. Hyundai seems to tune all of their suspensions to the soft side. I have had experience with a Sonata rental that was very soft. It comes down to preference, and since like your FIL I prefer a firmer more confident ride I bought a Ford Freestyle that handles very well.
- Chad
That's nearly exaclty what I told him. I was just surprised to hear that the handling was worse than that of a BOF SUV. I tried to talk him into a CX-9 or an Acadia when he was shopping but he liked the VC for some reason. Maybe the price appealed to him more or something.
Seriously though, the Veracruz is a unibody vehicle with suspension tuning to be more like a car than a truck.
I would say the opposite. A unibody should corner better than, and with less body roll than, a BOF SUV. Mostly because they tend to sit lower to the ground and usually have more complex suspensions.
Seriously though, the Veracruz is a unibody vehicle with suspension tuning to be more like a car than a truck.
I would say the opposite. A unibody should corner better than, and with less body roll than, a BOF SUV. Mostly because they tend to sit lower to the ground and usually have more complex suspensions.
Body roll is a function of the suspension tuning, not the body structure of a vehicle. On a softly sprung vehicle like the Veracruz you may get more body roll than the more truck-like Explorer. This doesn't actually mean it handles worse, but it leans more into the corners, which I suspect is what your FIL doesn't like. I also suspect that the Veracruz would indeed out handle the Explorer in ultimate grip at the limit, but the Explorer likely feels more planted up until the point it lets loose because of the firmer truck suspension. It is more perception than reality that the Veracruz doesn't handle as well.
- Chad
I get that, but what I'm saying is that these CUVs, being based on cars, should be expected to lean less than a BOF SUV IMO. Obviously my FIL thought so too. I knew the VC is a copy of a Lexus RX but it seems they should have copied someone elses suspension. Unless one likes that sort of ride.
but the Explorer likely feels more planted up until the point it lets loose because of the firmer truck suspension.
I have to disagree. Those firmer truck suspensions tend to get somewhat better when some weight is on top of them not when it's just the driver going down the highway. They are built for that sort of duty and excel at it. I have an '06 and it leans around corners a good bit too. I just can't imagine that the VC is worse. If it in fact is then I'd be scared too. :surprise:
Not in all cases. The Ford Escape didn't have a rear anti-roll bar until the current 2009 model. It was always said to have minimal body roll in the past (you'll have to search for the reviews yourself) and is even better now. I had an '05 and now have an '08 and have to agree with past assessments. It has a good bit less body roll than our Explorer.
Edmunds take on it, with comments on the new anti-roll bar, can be read here.
I do know about all of the lambda clones, and that the Traverse and Outlook are cheaper. But for 1000 more, I like the look of the Acadia better. I'd geuss you get more standard equipment than the Traverse, and Saturn has that wierd no haggle pricing (though I'm sure soon Saturn will have some big discounts, but there are NONE for the Acadia). THough I completely consider the Enclave a true competitor for the likes of the RX and R-class (and others) I think you can just choose which lambda you like based on looks. I reconsidered the Enclave because in a few years they won't make the Acadia- or the Outlook, but they will continue to make the Traverse and Enclave, so they will probably still have the parts the Acadia needs.
I do agree will you about the "frivolous" options. I do want some luxury toys I've become accustomed to in the Mercedes (wow, that's contradicting!) like the heated memory seats and I love the captains from the van, so I will probably get an SLT-1. But I'm not for the pricey not necessary options, like sunroofs, and navigation systems or power liftgate. I like the look of the 19 inch rims, I'll definitely be skipping that frill. The only option I might consider is the DVD system if the dealer installed price is right. We take 2-3 big driving trips a year and several other little ones, and it's hugely convient not to have to fumble with so many wires everytime the kids want to watch a movie, and it's nice to have the waranty cover a problem with a built in, something Best Buy doesn't do. Also, I don't believe in aftermarket, as it takes away from the overall value.
It has been awhile since I looked at these, but it seems the Outlook base was less than the Acadia because they left off some equipment. Those were available to add back in. The Enclave had more standard equipment than either of the others, but if you added options to Acadia or Outlook to make it equivalent to the base Enclave, the pricing was about the same. Saturn would be at a disadvantage if they don't offer discounts given the soft vehicle market these days.
I have access to GM supplier discount through the wife working at Fedex and can get on-line pricing for GM or Buick, but Saturn tells you to see dealer for details. I've never been a fan of Saturn no haggle pricing since it seems that pricing is higher than competing vehicles. Great for the seller since the buyer would pay more and thus margin would be higher.
But it did have a front anti-roll bar, which can do a lot on its own.
Very funny comment in the Escape Edmunds article you cited: "Along with the new tires and a retuned suspension, all Escapes get a rear antiroll bar for 2009, making us inadvertently comment, "It didn't have a rear antiroll bar before?" Nope. "....... My reaction exactly. I can't believe it didn't have something back there to lower roll in turns like most cars. However, it has long been known that you do need more roll stiffness on the front suspension, and that the rear suspension must have a less-stiff, lower-diameter anti-roll bar, so maybe thats how they got away with just zeroing out the rear roll bar. The front suspension was tasked with the entire job of anti-roll control, and if you make that stiff enough, it will reduce roll tilt while cornering without rear support.
The Acadia/Outlook/Traverse/Enclaves are good choices for those needing the size. I once tried to convince Audi Q7 V6-version owners to switch to GM's offerings because I noticed the exterior dimensions are about the same between the Q7 and GM lambdas. Most of the arguments for the Q7 centered around "it must be better because its German". I think GM has a comparable product for less $$$$.
Yes it does. However you said "anti-roll bars" which refers to both the front AND the back. That is what I was responding to and why I pointed out the Escape example.
MT feels differently. It's not directly compared to an Acadia in this article, but I don't see how the two could compare in any way after reading their take.
Your opinion may hold more water than theirs, but it certainly doesn't agree! :shades:
MT Q7 Long Term Verdict.
Note they tested a 350 HP V8 model, plenty of power; not the V6 model. A lot of what they liked about it had to do with the good acceleration. The GM Lambdas do very well in the handling department but can't out-accelerate the Audi V8. Audi did a good job with that vehicle, but the GM Lambdas can be had for $10,000 less than an Audi V6 model (comparable model) and still provide 95% of the aplomb. And the Audio V8 version of the Q7is a $60,000 vehicle and can't be compared with the GM lambdas.
The car magazines should test a $40,000 Buick Enclave against a $43,000 Audi Q7 V6 version, and the Enclave might win or get very close.
And, in the Motor Trend article you cited, they like the Q7's aluminum suspension components. I have to point out that GM put aluminum suspension components in my parents 2000 Buick Park Avenue and Ford put aluminum lower control arms (big parts there) in my '05 F150 2wd pickup I got for $18,000 new, so aluminum components are in much less expensive vehicles, too. The current GM lambdas probably have aluminum as well, although I don't know if they do, as high-strength steel does very well there too.
Hmmmm....you could use this same argument to trying and convince a BMW 3 series owner to drive a Malibu, but I don't think it would work.
Still trying to decide what to go with when I replace my Trooper, will probably keep the Envoy XL my wife drives for another couple of years...that covers the 6-7 passenger when needed and extra luggage room when traveling. I would love to have the 6-7 passenger hauler, but could probably replace the 5 passenger Trooper for quite a few $K less. I also need a minimum 3500 lb tow rating so that would probably leave out some possibilites that would work otherwise. As long as the Trooper keeps running I don't have much urgency to change...but I still get the new vehicle itch.
The BMW 3-series is one of those German cars worth the price. The Audi Q7 is not.