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Crossover SUV Comparison

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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Anyone know how the 07 XT did?

    They only have 2003 Forester XS: 60.2.

    I guess Cayenne showing a good number for its weight. The comparable MB ML63 AMG 64.4: huge difference from its 'inexpensive' sibling ML350: 57.5

    Surprised that Murano performs so low: it looks sportier.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Very surprised to see the Rav take the F-XT

    Must be the tires.

    I own a Toyota and a Subaru and I'll be the first to say the Subaru handles 100 times better.

    The numbers don't tell the whole story. Intrusive stability control would also seriously limit slalom times.

    Does anyone know if Edmunds tests with the VSC off, if so equipped?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Found it:

    http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2009/10/il-track-tested-2010-mitsubishi- -outlander-gt.html

    I'm sort of disappointed they didn't offer the dual-clutch transmission, I recall in 2007 Mitsubishi said it would come. They must have cancelled those plans.

    Looks like Mitsu bumped HP to 230 and put on 18" rims. That explains the good slalom numbers - those must be very low profile tires.

    0-60 in 7.9 is also a nice improvement, I watched this comparo video yesterday and they said their Outlander took 9 seconds:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/VideosTypeIndex/type=Crossover#74

    Middle of the page, under Comparison Tests, "2007-2008 Compact Crossover Comparison Video".

    It also took 4th place out of 4 competitors.

    Time for a rematch?
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Looks like Mitsu bumped HP to 230 and put on 18" rims. That explains the good slalom numbers - those must be very low profile tires.

    Actually the 2007 Outlander XLS is also equipped with 18" tires.

    According to the article, 2010 Outlander GT was tested with pretty standard tires:
    Tire Size: 225/55R18
    Tire Brand: Goodyear
    Tire Model: Eagle LS2
    Tire Type: All-season

    Mitsubishi explanes improved handling:

    More Aggressive Handling
    With the Outlander already one of the best handling SUVs on the market, engineers had a great base from which to begin. Slightly lower with the use of a shorter and stiffer suspension, the Outlander GT lends a menacing and race-bred look...

    Super All Wheel Control (S-AWC)
    Merging Mitsubishi's experience in off-road and rally racing with production car development, the Outlander GT features the revolutionary Super All Wheel Control (S-AWC) system. More than just four-wheel drive, S-AWC is a handling system that provides increased handling, traction and stability...

    Utilizing a first-in-class active front limited-slip differential and an electronically controlled 4WD coupling, S-AWC can prevent wheel slip between front to rear and side-to-side to enhance tire grip. To the driver this translates into greater traction through all types of terrain and inclement weather, including ice, snow and rain. By measuring throttle input, wheel speed, engine output, steering angle, gear selection, acceleration and yaw rate and combining that data with input from the Active Stability Control (ASC) and Anti-Lock Brake (ABS) computers, S-AWC can accurately detect driving conditions and adjust accordingly. With S-AWC, the Outlander GT can turn tighter, find traction and is more stable during cornering...
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> Does anyone know if Edmunds tests with the VSC off, if so equipped?

    My impression that yes, they test slalom with VSC off, if it could be disabled. Quote about FJ testing:

    "Toyota's Vehicle Skid Control severly hampers at-the-limit handling maneuvers in both the slalom and skid pad tests. Most intrusive in the radical transistions encountered during slalom testing, VSC significantly limited slalom speed through brake application and throttle reduction. *Because Toyota doesn't allow disabling of its stability control system, editors elected to eliminate the slalom test from performance scoring in this comparison."

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=115472/pageId=972- 60
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So it's lowered and they upgraded AWC to S-AWC.

    The EVO has S-AWC so I wonder how much the systems have in common.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Toyota does have an off button (Sienna) and maybe the RAV4 does also since they rated it.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Does it actually completely disengage it? I've read about "off buttons" that really just raise the threshold. In your Sienna, its probably not worth finding out. :)
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Definitey not on my Toyota. Probably all Toyotas.

    It goes from being way too intrusive (can't climb my driveway with an inch of snow) to being just about right (you don't notice unless it's intentional).

    It's never all the way off.
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Tokyo Show. Mitsubishi is unveiling what it calls the PX-MiEV. This crossover seems to be a conglomerate of all things; its is a plugin hybrid, a parallel hybrid, a series hybrid, and an EV.

    The front and rear wheels are powered by two electric motors that total 60 kw, and there is a 1.6 L gas engine that can both power the front wheels and act as a generator. All of the driving configurations are managed by a power control unit and software called the “MiEV OS.”

    EV mode can be automatically switched between front wheel drive or 4 wheel rive depending on road conditions. When the battery is depleted to a certain level, the vehicle transforms into Volt-like series hybrid operation where the generator simply provides energy for the electric motors. However unlike the Volt, when power demands become high, the engine can also turn the wheels supplementing the electric motors as a parallel hybrid configuration.

    The EV mode range is 31 miles from a full charge, and the car seats 4.

    Mitsubishi claims the vehicle will achieve about 117 MPG overall.

    Mitsubishi throws in lots of concept auto show goodies, including LED head- and rear-maps; an aerodynamic shell-like metal appearance; seat upholstery that deactivates allergens and kills bacteria; airplane cockpit instrumental panels; and wireless charging for programming charge times. Mitsubishi is also looking to the future when vehicle-to-grid becomes more feasible by creating a “power supply mode” to allow owners to use onboard stored energy to power home appliances—or in the short run to run campsite electricity via a 100-volt AC auxiliary socket.

    The gadget list continues with a “multi-around monitor" system using cameras located around the car, and an on-board receiver to receive signals about vehicles or pedestrians in the driver's path. Finally, the PX-MiEV is fitted with an electronically-controlled air suspension that gives the driver the choice of three ride height modes.

    Bloomberg reports that Mitsubishi aims to introduce a similar vehicle around 2013.

    more picts | dashboard

    image
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Impressive specs but they could have tried a little harder on the styling.
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    yvr1yvr1 Member Posts: 4
    I am thinking about purchasing the Forester or the Santa FE here in Vancouver, Canada. Test drove other models (i.e. RAV 4 and CR-V but came to the conclusion that they are inferior to the Forester). Hyundai is offering basically $3000 off on all their vehicles to clear out the 2009 models. The 2.5 X with Touring Package is comparable to the Santa Fe's 3.3 GLS except that the Santa Fe comes with leather seating and a six speaker sterero and the engine is a V6 which provides 242 hp. The MRSP of the Santa Fe before the cash rebate is $33, 045 and after the rebate is $30,045. MRSP of the Forester is $29,795.00. Everyone says resale value of Hyundai is weak, but this would be partially offset by the rebate. The Santa Fe gives a lot of bang for the buck. I only drove the model with the four cylinder but will go back to drive one with the six. I found the four very weak and Subaru's more smooth and quicker. On the plus side, I believe that the cargo space (with the second seats up) is bigger than the Foresters. I'm only concerned with cargo space beyond the 2nd row for now because I have two infants and their car seats take up all the space in the 2nd row on a permanent basis

    Any input is appreciated; the dealers are quickly running out of the Santa Fe's apparently.

    VCR1
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hyundai has come a long way, and that's a good value for a V6.

    My concern would be fuel economy, that and depreciation will make your TCO higher on the SF.

    Drive one - you may find it's worth the extra outlay, but just go in knowing it will cost you a bit more to operate.
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    I test drove the non-turbo Forester and felt it was underpowered. Otherwise it's a good reliable car.

    Santa Fe is more luxurious, offers V6, better 5/10 warranty and more space, so seems it would serve your needs better. If it costs you little more overtime, you would get your money worth.
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    redrose1redrose1 Member Posts: 49
    I would like to know how the AWD on the Subaru compares to the AWD on the SF.

    (Forester or Outback vs SF)

    Thank you.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Santa Fe gives a lot of bang for the buck. I only drove the model with the four cylinder but will go back to drive one with the six.

    Hyundai doesn't offer a 4-cylinder 2009 Santa Fe. The GLS (what you drove) uses a 2.7L V6 engine, with 185 horsepower and 183 ft-lbs of torque. It's actually quite smooth to me, even at high RPM, if not particularly quick off the line. For 2010, Hyundai is replacing that engine with a 4-cylinder delivering 200 horses and better fuel mileage.
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    cbmortoncbmorton Member Posts: 252
    In Canada, the 2.7 V6 is only available on the GL FWD. The GLS uses the 3.3 exclusively.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru has several different systems, two on the Forester alone.

    The manuals have a simple viscous coupling mating the front and rear axles together, acting like a center diff. When one rotates at a different rate than the other, the fluid sheers and thickens, temporarily locking the two axles together. Subaru lets their AWD systems act first, but as a backup there is also a traction and stability control system, to manage traction on each axle (if one side is slipping).

    The automatics use a clutch pack to adjust the amount of power sent to the rear axle, and they manage both axles with traction control as well.

    Hyundai's system is FWD based and on-demand only, rather than always engaged. It's a pretty basic system, AFAIK.

    A bigger factor may be ground clearance and angles of approach and departure, where the Forester broadens its advantage.

    A Forester XT (turbo) will easily outrun the much heavier Santa Fe even with the big V6, but the SF is bigger inside so consider your needs carefully. The Subie is CR's top rated small SUV, MotorWeeks driver's choice, and a MotorTrend comparo winner plus their SUVOTY so it's been the darling of the media as of late.

    Happy shopping.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry; forgot trim lines are different in different world-markets. Hyundai USA doesn't offer a GL model, only GLS (2.7), SE and Limited (3.3).
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/10/word-on-the-street-the-secret-of-subarus-suc- cess.html

    Some excerpts:

    Most agree that Subaru has benefited greatly from the Forester's 2009 redesign, which earns nearly universal praise from our members.

    [sales are] up 35 percent from the same period in 2008. That's mighty impressive considering industry sales were down 27 percent

    But most insist that AWD-only is integral to Subaru brand in the U.S. and that if "they start offering FWD or RWD even on just a few models that... brand identity starts getting watered down." One post questions, "Is it worth losing your identity for a 10% gain in fuel economy?" Another argues, "They need to maintain the exclusivity of AWD standard; otherwise... they'd wind up being in the same position as Mitsubishi or Suzuki -- good but overlooked over for having nothing to stand out." And a third likens the potential effect of Subaru abandoning AWD-only to GM overtaking Saab in the 1990s, noting that Saab was "no longer the 'quirky car' once GM homogenized and pasteurized them."

    In other words, it appears that the company, like the AWD drivetrain that it is known for, handles great in any kind of weather.

    Let's keep in mind, though, the Hyundai is probably 2nd to Subaru in this economy, with sales decreases lower than just about anyone else.
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    yvr1yvr1 Member Posts: 4
    I haven't gone back to Hyundai dealership to test-drive the Santa Fe with the 3.3L engine yet, but had one more vehicle to test-drive before narrowing down the list. Went to test drive an Equinox, and the dealer didn't even have any except in the showroom, but we did drive a 2010 GM Terrain, which he said was basically the same platform and interior as the Equinox; only difference was the exterior styling. I guess they're selling really well. In any event, after I drove it, I can't understand why. The steering and the brakes I found unresponsive. Brakes felt like mush and had to really press down to get the car to a full stop. Acceleration wasn't great. The two-tone colour scheme for the interior (brown/black) didn't appeal to me (don't these colours clash?). Even the much -vaunted sound deadening wasn't apparent to me. The only things I thought the Equinox had over the Forester was slightly smoother ride when going over bumps (at the expense of poorer handling) and a much better stereo system. I think the MRSP is a couple of thousand more than the Forester. Maybe the 2010 Equinox was such a vast improvement over the 2009 version, accounting for its newfound popularity?

    I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the Forester is the best of the bunch when it comes to compact SUV's in the price range I am looking at (around 30K Cdn). Can anyone persuade me otherwise?
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the Forester is the best of the bunch when it comes to compact SUV's in the price range I am looking at (around 30K Cdn). Can anyone persuade me otherwise?

    That’s easy. The 2010 Mitsubishi Outlander GT is a much better crossover then Forester (and better then anything else in this class):

    • 6-speed auto with paddle shifters and idle neural logic vs. dated 4-speed transmission.
    • 40 GB mp3 music server vs. nothing.
    • Premium 710-watt Rockford Fosgate stereo with 8 speakers + 10" subwoofer vs. generic 6-speaker stereo.
    • Sirius satellite radio vs. nothing
    • Outlander GT demonstrates spectacular handling: 66.2 mph slalom beating every CUV except for $95K BMW X6M with $500 sport tires.
    • Larger 18" tires vs. 17”
    • FAST key entry/keyless start (your key is always in your pocket)
    • Voice control and Bluetooth music streaming Link System
    • Diamond Lane Guidance real-time traffic navigation vs. basic navigation.
    • Rear View backup camera. Parking sensors available.
    • Superior AWD system with both front-to-back and side-to-side torque control, with Auto, Lock and FWD modes, form the manufacturer of 12-time Dakar champion.
    • More cargo space, flap-fold tailgate and 3-rd row seating for kids.
    • Rain Sensing Wipers vs. regular
    • Xenon Headlights vs. regular
    • More horse power and higher towing capacity
    • 5/10 warranty + free roadside vs. basic warranty
    • Top CR reliability rating.

    What Forester could offer instead? Larger sunroof, and that’s about it. It's well build but basic car.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Unlike you I really like the two-tone interiors GM has done lately, but I agree about the numb steering (the Vue was the same way).

    Even with that steering Equinox probably earns the Most Improved award.
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    sea1sngsea1sng Member Posts: 1
    We live on a hill and I have looked at the towing capacity but wanted to see what others have to say.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's not a very heavy trailer, most small SUVs can manage that much (exception: Honda CR-V? others?).

    Do keep in mind that trailer brakes are required by all major manufacturers for a trailer of that weight. You don't want to end up with the tail wagging the dog.

    What's on your short list of choices? I bet most of them have a model that can easily handle that load. Pick something with good torque so you're not struggling up those hills.

    Maybe big brakes as well.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Can we not create a specific thread for Outlander vs. Forester? If there isn't one, I'll even create it for you.

    The current state of this one just makes me tired, and it was one of my favorites in-spite of me having only sedans in the driveway.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not only do we have one, we have two!

    I think some of the last posts can be moved over there and the other one merged or archived.

    Here's the link:

    Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

    Please continue ... wherever. :)
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    What CUV do you wish to discuss instead? In any case I am flying to Germany tomorrow so then I will not be saying much.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Promise? :P

    The OP asked about the Forester and the Santa Fe, I don't know how we got on the Outlander. My response was on topic.

    I'm fine with moving the posts there - that's where this belonged once the Outlander was brought in. In fact I suggest from now on, in any thread, when chelentano wants to recommend the SUV he did not buy that he link to there instead.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Ah, the Forester and the Outlander have been in the category list for a while here, so y'all aren't off topic. But there are other CUVs to yak about too.

    Like the Accord Crosstour.

    /hint :shades:
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's hard to ignore that styling. It looks like a pregnant Accord. Plus, the AWD model starts at $34,730 (EX-L), which is steep.

    An H6 Outback Ltd runs about $3k less, at $31.7k. It's a tad smaller, but probably the best value of the 3.

    As usual, Toyota gives you 1,000 a-la-carte optinos. Venza V6 AWD, add Comfort Package for heated leather seats and EJ sound for 6CD/Bluetooth, then SR for the sunroof, and you get $34,240. IMHO it's the best looking of the bunch. Haven't driven it yet but I've heard the huge wheels give it a brittle ride, odd for a Toyota.
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    tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Funny you should mention the Venza. There is a review and story over on msnbc.com that is somewhat less than flattering about the Venza and Toyota in general.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33605151/ns/business-autos/

    In short, here is what they have to say about the Venza:

    Pros: Comfortable ride, superlative fuel economy for its size, the brand name that makes grizzled baby boomers behave like irrational adolescents

    Cons: Insultingly cheap interior, lousy steering, useless automatic headlights

    Verdict: Toyota is off its game and needs to refocus on giving customers more than they expect rather than thinking they won’t notice that they are being shortchanged.

    :(
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's very significant - it means Toyota cut their advertising budget on MSNBC. :D

    Just kidding. ;)

    I was under the impression that the ride was not good. Maybe they tested a model with smaller rims?

    Also, the interior looks fine to me. It has a padded dash and far better materials than what you'd find in, for instance, the RAV4. Maybe they have much higher expectations in that price range?

    I'm not surprised about the steering - my Sienna is number than my Wii-mote. The weight is right, but there is zero feedback.

    Also, I do think that the mere volume of production Toyota has can make quality control suffer.

    I thought that review was pretty harsh. And how old is that article? He compares it to Pacifica and Taurus X. Venza doesn't even offer a 3rd row.

    CR gave it a pretty good score overall, but the Outback scored higher (even though they tested the 4 cylinder OB).
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    >> The OP asked about the Forester and the Santa Fe, I don't know how we got on the Outlander. My response was on topic.

    My response was on topic too. Post 7060: user yvr1 posted:
    "...Forester is the best of the bunch when it comes to compact SUV's... Can anyone persuade me otherwise?"

    So I responded:
    "That’s easy. The 2010 Mitsubishi Outlander GT is a much better crossover then Forester... " then I listed my points why.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's move on...I already have.
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Anyone heard reviews on these updated models. Will definitely visit the showrooms when they debut.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr111809.html

    Midsize SUVs
    Dodge Journey
    Subaru Tribeca
    Volvo XC60
    Volvo XC90

    Small SUVs
    Honda Element
    Jeep Patriot with optional side torso airbags
    Subaru Forester
    Volkswagen Tiguan

    The list shrunk substantially because this year they added the roof strength test as a requirement to make it.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Interesting that the Element (an old design by this segment's standards) gets a top-pick while the CR-V does not.
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I noticed that, too. 2 comments:

    * Element has upright pillars, which may have helped.

    * Honda said early on that they would seriously reinforce the A- and C-pillars since there is no B-pillar.
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    chelentanochelentano Member Posts: 634
    Mitsubishi Debuts Sync Rival, Called Fuse, In 2010 Outlander
    http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1038759_mitsubishi-debuts-sync-riva- l-called-fuse-in-2010-outlander#comments

    New Mitsubishi Nav System Includes Free Traffic Service:
    http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1038615_new-mitsubishi-nav-system-i- ncludes-free-traffic-service
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Top IIHS safety picks:

    SMALL SUVs

    Honda Element
    Jeep Patriot - with optional side torso airbags
    Subaru Forester
    Volkswagen Tiguan

    It's in alphabetical order. This does not mean the Element won, in fact the Forester's 4.64 strength-to-weight ratio actually beat the Element in the new-for-2010 roof strength test.

    Not that it matters, both Element and Forester are Top Safety Picks, and extremely safe choices.

    Forester has other best-in-class claims but you'll ignore them anyway so I won't bother listing them.
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    tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,606
    Can't we start a Mitsubishi vs. Subaru thread somewhere? We've all seen too many other threads get saddled down with this very argument.

    23 Civic Type-R / 22 MDX Type-S / 21 Tesla Y LR / 03 Montero Ltd

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We'll move some more posts over to the Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester discussion.

    And people in there have been put on notice that all the niggling details are of little interest to most readers. Cabin fever perhaps?
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Those niggling detail posts served as an outlet for my OCD. Now what am I going to do. Thanks a lot Steve. :cry:
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You'd probably enjoy 4WD & AWD systems explained then. :shades:
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Thanks for the tip -- checked it out and after 5 minutes, I don't need my meds anymore. Prais-ed be !!! :)
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    lol, can you mail them to me? :D
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Planning on putting them up for auction on ebay tommorrow --- free shipping in original container.. Paypal only. No reserve so keep an eye out. Need to do something to supplement my pension. :P
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Bummer - PayPal is one of the reasons I'm on meds!

    Ok, how 'bout some crossover news?

    Deal of the Week: 2010 Infiniti QX56

    image

    Or maybe you'd like to dream about one we don't get in the US:

    image

    Inside Line (In the rest of the pics it looks more like the compact car it really is).

    This is more like it - but it's another one we don't get in the States:

    image

    2011 Mitsubishi RVR
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    The big infinity's and nissan armada just don't look balanced to me. I really like the pathfinder awd with leather etc. Plenty of room and it just looks right.
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