Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

ninian · October 2002

One follow-up to juice's comment on factory v. aftermarket speakers: You do have to be careful on this. Not all speakers that fit Forester openings are shallow enough for the space. If you follow the automated search by vehicle and year on the Crutchfield site, they weed out the gear that does not fit your vehicle. Other vendors may not be so helpful.

rochcom · October 2002

I was surfing the subaru-global site, trying to find some evidence for a turbo 2.5 (no luck), and I came across this page of Forester screen savers, wallpaper, and videos. Just in case anyone is interested.

http://www.subaru-global.com/lineup/forester/download/

spudman · October 2002

Thanks for the responses to my speaker questions. They are very helpful. The dealer quoted me $312 for the upgraded speakers and tweeters. I think that's too high and will offer less. I don't want this to be a deal breaker. Before the speakers the Forester XS is being offered at 2300 below MSRP.
I want to finalize this one way or another today and tomorrow.

p0926 · October 2002

The MSRP for the tweeter kit (D3D) and upgraded speakers (D3B) is $295 (invoice is $192). Edmunds lists the TMV as $234. I'd offer that and install them yourself. That way the dealer makes a decent (but not obscene) profit and you get what you want for a reasonable price.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · October 2002

I wouldn't spend $312 for the speakers.

Heck, if you live in the DC area, come over and I'll put 'em on for ya. It's really that easy.

If you insist on having the dealer do it, offer the invoice price plus the minimum 1 hour of labor, or $192 plus whatever they charge for labor. I think $60 is fair, so $252 total for all 6 installed.

-juice

veenya1 · October 2002

We have a 2003 XS. My wife is the main driver and she is comfortable in the driver's seat. She is only 5 feet tall. For me it is not as comfortable. I'm 6' 1" tall and half of my thigh extend past the front of the driver's seat. I've tried different adjustments with the seat. Has anybody else had this problem with the seat and is there a solution to make both my wife and I comfortable? Are the leather seats the same or are they larger seats? If the leather seats are different, can our seats be replaced with the leather?

p0926 · October 2002

Nick- A few others have complained about the depth of the driver's seat. However, I'm 6'1 myself and find it quite comfortable. I recommend trying different seat height and back angles. FYI: I keep my seat down all the way in the back and elevated slightly in the front with the seat back reclined a couple of notches. Also, I'm almost certain that the leather seats are the same construction as the cloth seats.

-Frank P.

kens · October 2002

spudman,

If you're okay using a standard screwdriver, upgrading the speakers is a piece of cake.

I would suggest buying just the tweeters from the dealer and the other speakers from a place like Crutchfield and doing the installation yourself.

The Forester is already pre-wired with the tweeter crossovers so it's pretty much crimp-and-play. The Crutchfield EZ installation kits have everything you need so no cutting or splicing.

Ken

smo615 · October 2002

If you look on several European sites, they list a Forrester 2 liter turbo at about 150 hp. Subaru offers a 2.5 bi-turboat 250hp in their Japanese Legacy GT. I hear it is coming here next year. It would be nice if some version of this engine could make it into the Forrester. And while they are at it, they might put a few suspension parts from the WRX in the Forester too, lower the ground clearance, and add low-profile 17" wheels for a really tricked out Forester. I have held off buying a WRX wagon because it is just too small.

ateixeira · October 2002

It's tuned to 168hp in most markets, 217hp in Japan. They have a lot of variations of tune for the EJ20.

I think the twin turbo in the Legacy Blitzen is a 2.0l as well.

-juice

kens · October 2002

Yep, the bi-turbo used in the Legacy is a 2.0, not a 2.5.

Ken

rochcom · October 2002

The two Forester engines listed at the Subaru-global site are 2.0's, one normally aspirated, and one a turbo. The turbo has less power than a North American 2.5.

I too would like more power in a Forester. I agree that the WRX, while a very nice package, is just too small for my needs.

I bought my Forester after the sales rep suggested I drive one. I had initially gone in to try out a Legacy GT. But the Forester was more "nimble," as the auto magazine writers say, and faster. There should be versions of both the Forester and the GT that offer more power. Either a 2.5 turbo or a 3.0 six would be nice.

ann365 · October 2002

g,day my local subaru agency offers a complementary service for new vehicles at 1600 klm
although I don't believe subaru recommend it some advice i've had is to change oil & filter at that
time;any comment fellow subarees.nhmcck

mlp1 · October 2002

Hi again guys! Thanks for all the responses to my past question. Now I have another! My Subaru dealer is selling the invoice on his lot at invoice price. I took a Premium home last night to try out. I like it except for 2 things: 1, when I use the remote to unlock the doors, only the driver side unlocks and 2, there doesn't seem to be an inside light that automatically comes on when you open/unlock the car. Small things I know, but I have both now with my lemon car so I'm used to it. But, my question is, should I accept the car at invoice or try and wheel and deal below? I really don't have any experience with that but adding taxes in will take the car to almost 25,000 (it comes w/several options).

mrk610 · October 2002

If you hit the remote button a 2nd time all the doors and lift gate unlock . Thats how it works on my outback so I would think it is the same on the forrester.

Mike k

speterson1 · October 2002

Mike's right, a second push will unlock all the doors and the rear hatch. As far as interior lighting, check the switch on the overhead dome light and make sure it's not set to "off". I have a 2001 L, and my interior light comes on whenever we use the remote to unlock the doors, so I can't believe they got rid of this feature...

Steve

mlp1 · October 2002

I tried hitting the unlock twice Mike and it still didn't unlock any doors other than the driver. What yours does, is what I would want mine to do.....wonder if it's something you have to program? I'll ask the dealer today when I take the car back.

p0926 · October 2002

Yep, twice should unlock everything. Also, I agree with Steve in that the overhead light is turned to "Off" vice "Auto".

As far as price goes, Edmunds lists the current TMV at approx $300 under invoice. I think there is also a $500 dealer incentive (that expires today). Therefore, I'd think you could get the dealer to come down some more. Having said that, if it was me, the price differential still wouldn't be big enough to convince me to buy a 2002 over a 2003.

-Frank P.

lark6 · October 2002

Your experience sounds exactly the same as mine: I went in to drive a Legacy GT wagon, ended up in the Forester for much the same reasons. Threw in a Legacy OB test drive just for good measure.

I don't think the WRX is significantly smaller except in terms of the shape, especially height, of the cargo area. I wouldn't have been able to haul as much tall, square antique furniture or home entertainment equipment in the WRX wagon.

Ed

lark6 · October 2002

The time is drawing near to take off the Superleggeras and Pilot Sports for the winter. I will, however, need to buy a new set of tires for the OEM 16" Forester S alloys in the stock 215/60-16 size (to replace the bald Geolandars). These tires will likely stay on the car through late March and, if I get too distracted, maybe later into the year.

I live in the Philadelphia metro area and, while we don't typically get more than 2 feet of snow a winter, we have gotten accumulations of up to a foot at one shot.

So I am not looking for a dedicated snow or winter tire, but a good all-season performance type that will be at least adequate in snow, slush or ice - hopefully better in all categories than the Geolandars.

My inclination is to go with a set of Dunlop SP Sport 5000s or SP Sport A2s. What are your opinions on these or other choices?

Thanks,
Ed

ken_from_nj · October 2002

my 03 forester xs - the 1st time you hit the unlock button on the remote - driver door unlocks. the 2nd time unlocks the other doors & the hatch. dome light switch set in middle allows the light to go on/off with open/closing of the doors. only thing i wish but which doesn't happen is that the 2 map lights up front don't come on when doors open. the dome light set to far towards rear seats to provide adequate lighting in the front which is sort of a pain at nite but i deal with it. subaru should tie a switch like that to the 2 map lighes up front as well for future model improvement. - just my 2 cents.

mlp1 · October 2002

Thanks guys! I'm glad I won't have to live w/those 2 'problem's. Frank, are you sure TMV is $300 under invoice? I get invoice at 22,918 and TMV at 23, 870. I also didn't get a hit on a dealer incentive.....but I'm in Ohio so maybe that's regional?

p0926 · October 2002

Michelle- TMV can vary according to region (that's why you have to input a zip code) but the numbers you listed appear to be for a 2003 XS Premium. If you go back to the initial Forester selection page you should see a link to the 2002 models. Once there you should also be able to pull up the deal incentive info.

-Frank P.

mlp1 · October 2002

Frank, I see what you're talking about now....I wasn't clear in my message. I actually took an '03 Premium home, not an '02. Other than special financing, there aren't any dealer incentives for the '03.

bsvoller · October 2002

Ed - I got a message that my Dunlop SP A2's are in - were on back order for a week. We'll be getting them put on shortly, and we have some fresh snow in Denver.

If you can wait a couple of days, I'd be happy to share first impressions with you.

We drive an '01 Forester S/MT for comparison's sake.

FWIW, the A2's seemed to be very highly rated by everybody I could find, and I did research this pretty thoroughly. The general consensus seems to be that they match the Geo's in the dry and wet, outperform them considerably in the snow, run quiet and offer twice the useful life mileage-wise. Plus, they're still affordable at under $100 each, mounted balanced and installed.

I'm getting ours at Discount Tire. Same price as Tirerack and I get to deal with a human. Great service too.

Hope this helps,

-brianV

p0926 · October 2002

Michelle- My mistake. When you mentioned that your dealer was offering to sell his inventory at invoice I assumed that he just wanted to clear his lot of any remaining 2002s. However, if you can actually buy a 2003 at invoice then I'd jump on it. That's a great bargain ($900 better than Edmunds' TMV.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · October 2002

Jeff: I felt the same way. The Forester has a couple hundred pound weight advantage, plus a shorter wheelbase vs. the Legacy.

If it's free, go ahead and change the oil at 1600km. There is no break-in oil used, in fact it's plain ol' Havoline motor oil.

My keyless entry works on all doors if you hold it (or hit it twice), and yes it turns on the light. The cool thing is that when you lock the doors, the lights fade slowly, like opera lights. Classy.

-juice

kens · October 2002

Ed -- I'm thinking of new tires for my Forester too. Unfortunately, as you probably already know, 215/60R16 is not a popular size.

Tires that I would consider are:
- Dunlop SP5000
- Dunlop Sport A2
- Continental CH95
- Bridgestone Turanza LS-V

The SP5000's are popular, but a local tire shop recommended my friend (also owns a Forester S) not to go with them because of the body roll on the Forester. He recommended the A2 instead.

The Contis are value priced and seem to have good overall handling.

The Turanzas usually get very good wet handling but snow performance doesn't seem very good.

brianV -- Please keep us posted on your A2 experiences!

Ken

lark6 · October 2002

So would 5000s cause the car to roll more or less? Bear in mind I am running 225/50-17 Pilot Sport A/S with an 18mm rear bar.

Ed

kens · October 2002

Ed,

According to my friend, the tire dealer thought that the body roll on the Forester would cause faster wear on the SP5000 since they were designed for sport cars. I don't know how true this is, but the dealer is a huge fan of the SP5000 and probably would not hesitate to recommend them unless there were some concerns. Then again, he's probably never driven a Forester either. Just FYI.

Also, my friend who got the Sport A2s didn't notice a huge difference in handling and performance compared to the stock Geos. I drove his Forester S also (not a the limit) and I can agree that I really couldn't tell them apart.

Ken

lark6 · October 2002

Ken, that doesn't speak well for the A2s if there's no performance improvement over OEM. I have seen SP 5000s on a Forester in a NJ shopping mall parking lot but didn't see the owner to ask any questions. Given that I would go back to the Pilots in the spring wear may not be that big a concern.

Ed

kens · October 2002

Either that or the Geolandars were pretty decent H-rated all-seasons. Again, I didn't drive at the limit nor have I driven them in snow and rain so I can't be sure.

What I have yet to believe is that the A2s perform as well as touted on Tire Rack's surveys in snow. The A2 has relatively few treads that run perpendicular to the tire's rotational direction so I don't know how it would get such a good foothold in snow.

Ken

lark6 · October 2002

Looking at the tread patterns the A2s do not look to have the foul weather grip that the 5000s would.

Ed

rlhermes1 · October 2002

I have used Michelin Artic Alpin tires on my Camry, and was suprised at how well they performed under dry conditions. Their only downside was a tendency to whine under rainy low speed conditions...you could hear all those little sipes working.

felt safer running my FWD Camry in snow, slush, and ice conditions than my Forester with Geolander tires. There are other good snow tire alternatives suited for urban winter/snow conditions.

Will be puchasing the Alpins for the Forester as soon as I can find
some 16" takeoffs.

RickH

rsunico · October 2002

Just got my 01 For. L from its 30k service. $380 (ouch!.. same as my Saab). I whined about clutch chatter... dealer gave me new clutch. I whined about brake thump.. dealer gave me new brakes (second brake job in 3k miles).

Questions: is the clutch chatter a common issue? I'm wondering about the extended warranty (purchase or not).
Does $380 seem a lot for the 30k service?

Think I'll keep her for now (unless the turbo For comes out). She has new (WRX) rims); sport grill... I even have a front bumper guard (I know its cosmetic but it WAS cheap).

Last question: Should I trader he in on a Kia instead?

-R

PS. Last question was a Halloween joke.

rochcom · November 2002

Tires are a very personal decision to a car enthusiast. Being stingy, I like tires that handle well on the road but do not cost a lot, so when my Geolandars wore out at 30k miles, I replaced them with BF Goodrich Touring T/As.

These have been on my Forester S for 40k miles now, and they have been better than the originals in most repects, including snow performance. They are down to 4/32 of tread now and will hydroplane at expressway speeds in heavy rain, and I am sure that their snow performance this winter will not be so good. They are T rated, but given that the Forester has a speed limiter programmed into the ECU (around 106 according to C&D's original road test), that is OK. They cost $69 each installed at BJs Wholesale when I bought them, but the price is now $89. They are available from Tire Rack for less, but with shipping and installation, it may come out the same.

My experiences with Continental are in the distant past, but they were uniformly bad, with tires getting out of round long before the tread wore out. I had the older Dunlop D60 A2 on two cars and, as I recall, they were fine until the tread was half worn, then they were treacherous on snow. They lasted around 30-35k.

The new Bridgstone Turanza LS series looks very promising, but they have not been out long enough for a good evaluation. They have a unique design that is meant to keep traction uniform as they wear. Again, being a cheapskate, I will be looking at the T-rated ones. They also have a very high tread wear rating.

lark6 · November 2002

Thanks for the input, rochcom. I also had Dunlop D60A2s on my '86 Jetta and found the same results that you did. I did buy a second set as lived in VA for a good period of time I owned that car. I also had a set of the old Bridgestone RE71s on the car briefly - and I do mean briefly as they had a short tread life and Bridgestone stopped making them in the size to fit the VW. Stickiest tire I've ever put on a car but definitely a summer tire.

Ed

ateixeira · November 2002

Dedicated snows are OK if you get a lot of snow, but in the DC area, where I live, it's so unpredictable and the season aren't well defined.

For instance, the past two years we've had almost nothing. You'd have been better off never mounting them.

And our last Blizzard was in '93, but it happened in March. By then, you probably would have had the summer tires back on, because we usually only get snow in January and February.

So at least for me that's not a practical solution. I'd have to mount/dismount the snows for each storm, if and when it happened.

Renato: $380 seems a little steep, but it depends on what they did. Did they do more than what Subaru requires?

Either way, if they covered the clutch and brakes, which IMO are wear-and-tear items and fall in the grey area in terms of whether they should be covered or not, then I would be happy with my dealer.

My wife had BFG T/A VR4 tires on her 626, and they were pretty good. I think they're a good value. Given you got 40k miles, why not just get another set? Do it now, before winter.

-juice

gouldn · November 2002

I recently took my 01 Forester in for its 45K service, and needed to rent a loaner car. Usually loaner cars are nothing to write home about, but imagine my surprise when they handed over the keys to a 02 Outback LL-Bean with the H6. I took my car to a distant dealer because they have the best service, so I ended up putting quite a bit of miles on the Outback.

It's my opinion that the Forester is more fun to drive around town becaue of its higher seating position, and seemingly faster acceleration between 0-30. The LL-Bean was more ponderous around town, and the visibility was not nearly as good. However on the freeway, the H6 is MUCH smoother and more quiet. It also has alot more power between 55-80, so it's much easier to pass on two lane roads. The seats were about the same in my opinion, although the LL-Bean had leather while my Forester has cloth. I was expecting much nicer seats in the larger Outback, but I could feel no significant difference.

But at the end of the rental, I was happy to get my Forester back. The LL-Bean only got 20.0 MPG on about 80% highway driving, while my Forester has recently improved to 26-27 MPG in the same conditions (both were automatic transmissions). I put about 75 miles a day on my car, so the mileage is getting more and more important to me.

When I read about the upcoming turbo, I guess I'm alone in wishing they would instead bring an more economical engine over. I would be willing to give up a little pep for 30 MPG. Frankly in the Bay Area, it's rare that I really need much acceleration. I've even been considering buying a second commuter car like a Honda Insight for the commute, and save the Forester for weekend trips when I need the extra room. What really surprises me are the people I know who commute in larger SUV's and get 13-15. Ouch!

bsvoller · November 2002

Had the A2 Sports mounted last night on our Forester. It's been snowing and cold - both relatively rare events in Denver proper. We've gotten several inches of Colorado champagne powder in the last few days, temps in the teens overnight, 30's during the day.

Having set the scene, here's my first impressions of these tires:

Looks - pretty sharp, at least IMHO

Tread pattern - pretty wide, 3-part center rib section, almost a third of the tire, flanked by fairly deep circumferential water channels separating the center rib section from the shoulders. Shoulders have curved, fairly deep and wide treads spaced every inch or so. There are fewer of these than on the stock Geo's, but they're wider and more aggressive. These might explain the snow grabbing ability of these tires. Narrower siping crosshatch on the two flanking center ribs extending onto the shoulders (crossing the circumferential water channels).

Overall, I thought the tread should look deeper than it does.

Handling - given the conditions, I'm obviously not pushing these tires, however, straight-ahead braking is at least on par with the Geo's in the slick (trying to remember back to when the Geo's were also new...) In the corners, the Dunlop's feel less secure, but it is icy at night. Run quiet, even in the wet. Plenty of grab to get up the hills in the slick.

Overall, I'd give 'em a B+ so far.

Hope this helps,

-brianV

ateixeira · November 2002

gouldn: my co-worker gets 9mpg in his Navigator. I get 25mpg in my Forester, even in the city it's 22mpg or better. We both live in the suburbs and work in the same building down town.

As long as I can get 20mpg or so, I'd still opt for more power.

You remind me of our Legacy, which does have longer legs. It's better for trips, highway jaunts, and back seat passengers. The cargo floor is positively huge.

The Forester is indeed better in the city, more suited to point and squirt driving. Better visibility, tighter turning circle, and less mass helps in every way. It carries boxy cargo better, too. Plus, it's easier to get into, you just slide into it vs. sitting down in the Legacy.

-juice

gouldn · November 2002

I agree that the Forester does well compared to others in its class. I'm not complaining about 27 MPG, it's good for a car with this much cargo carrying capacity, relative pep, automatic, etc. Especially considering the un-aerodynamic profile of the Forester.

I just feel that (my opinion only) there are plenty of choices for more powerful but low MPG vechilces, but not too many for high MPG choices. It would be nice to have a range of engines available that would allow us to choose better MPG over power. I would really like to be able to buy a hybrid engine for this car. Maybe in 10 year or so ....

veenya1 · November 2002

How do you respond back to someone responding to your message? I've looked into help and got lost.

stever · November 2002

I'm not sure but I think you just did :-)

If you are trying to email someone, you can check their profile and see if their email is marked public. It's more fun if you just share with everyone though!

Steve, Host

ateixeira · November 2002

I guess fuel costs are a very small portion of your total ownership costs, and once you get over $20 grand, it's not a primary concern for most people.

Of the top fuel misers, the Civic hybrid, Prius, Insight, Golf TDI, and Jetta TDI are all entry level products. Only the Passat TDI isn't.

You might even call the regular Civic and Corolla fuel misers, but they aren't offered in wagons. Maybe manufacturers are afraid they'll load them up with too much payload and overwhelm the powertrain?

I look at it this way - I bought the Forester instead of less efficient SUVs, so in a way I'm doing my share. In fact back in college I pledged to never buy a vehicle that didn't get 20mpg in the EPA city cycle, and so far I've been able to keep that promise, even with 2 kids and a wife that thinks "Pack Light" is a small city in the Philippines.

-juice

p0926 · November 2002

Unfortunately, there's not much demand for more fuel efficient SUVs. Look at the 4-cyl Escape and Liberty models. I'm willing to bet that they represent less than 10% of each model's sales. In fact, I suspect they only offer the 4-cyl as an option to raise their CAFE average.

I think that the hybrid concept has real potential to be successful in the market place by offering both good acceleration and fuel mileage. I've heard that Ford plans to come out with a hybrid version of the Escape in the next couple of years. Too bad it's a Ford :(o) but maybe that will inspire other manufacturers to follow suit.

-Frank P.

grahampeters · November 2002

G'day

Turbos do not necessarilly mean fuel inefficiency. I drove a Passat 1.8t for a while and was very impressed with its economy. It has one of the cleanest engines around and had the added benefit of sparkling performance when wanted. I seem to remember that I could get 35mpg from an Imperial gallon if I was careful. Admittedly, I drive fairly lightly most of the time and average about 30mpg from my Outback.

Cheers

Graham

ateixeira · November 2002

Frank: those are probably offered only so their ad copy can read "from $19k", even though I bet dealers hardly even stock anything less than $22k V6s.

Out of boost, a turbo doesn't burn any more gas than a N/A engine.

Added displacement usually does, though.

I was surprised that Subaru dropped the 2.2l engine, the TS wagon could easily get by with that. In fact, they have a 2.0l in Japan that makes 156hp, and that is more than enough for a value-priced TS.

-juice

p0926 · November 2002

Graham- I agree with you. Personally, I'd much rather have a turbo 4-cyl than a normally aspirated 6-cyl. With a turbo, how you drive determines whether you pay a fuel penalty (jack rabbit starts etc) whereas with a larger engine the fuel penalty is permanent. Besides, the normal advantage of more displacement is more torque at lower RPMs but Audi and others have demonstrated that it's possible to virtually eliminate turbo lag thereby narrowing the performance gap. And before Bob or Mike chime in, if someone needs to tow, then the old axiom "there's no replacement for displacement" still holds true and a larger engine makes more sense.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · November 2002

Well, even Audi is now offering the V8 engine in their allroad quattro, as an upgrade option to the twin turbo 2.7T.

I'll take a turbo, though. Actually, since Audi vacated that spot with the exit of the current S4, it leaves a gap for Subaru to occupy. The next S4 won't be in the same price/power class.

-juice

Subaru Forester (up to 2005)

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