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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    "Ouch?"

    I've got no complaints.

    Bob
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    "Ouch?"

    I've got no complaints.


    I'm just too used to the economy of a diesel I get that economy in heavy traffic! :D
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    You have a WRX, and are considering another—and you're disappointed with the mileage I'm getting?

    What are you expecting if you end up with another WRX? Diesel-like mileage?

    Bob
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    You have a WRX, and are considering another—and you're disappointed with the mileage I'm getting?
    What are you expecting if you end up with another WRX? Diesel-like mileage?


    I HAD a WRX, I sold it a long time back in 2003 but actually it sold in 2004 after I was already out of the country. It was a tough sell because everyone thought it had been "raced" typical of certain cars. I've owned 2 diesels in the Philippines and one gas vehicle. My Hi-Lux diesel gets an easy 24mpg in the city which is heavy traffic. If only there was traffic like in the US I'd be way above that.
    It's tough to sell a car when you are out of the country and I took a beating on it. :sick:
    but no choice, I was lucky to sell it and that pic was taken a week before i left and no dents or accidents or anything. I think it went for $17 or $18K. :cry:
    But I couldn't store it for that long a time I thought I'd be here for 8 years! The 2.0L is also a bit different engine than the new 2.5L
  • merrycynicmerrycynic Posts: 340
    As far as I'm concerned you can keep the diesel. My brother had one in a big Mercedes, and it was the only thing I didn't like about that car. Clakety, clack, clack, slow acceleration, having to plan trips around available diesel stations, waiting forever for big trucks to fill up, no thanks!
    Edmunds just posted something about a Saab 9-3 AWD w/ eLSD. Perhaps this might be an option for you. Of course it's the inferior Haldex system. Maybe it's just me, but having part time AWD instead of full time AWD is bad enough, but, why use front wheel drive most of the time and only use the rear for extra traction, I would have guessed the opposite, with RWD being supplemented with front drive would have been better. I'll keep the Subaru system thank you very much.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    As far as I'm concerned you can keep the diesel. My brother had one in a big Mercedes, and it was the only thing I didn't like about that car. Clakety, clack, clack, slow acceleration, having to plan trips around available diesel stations, waiting forever for big trucks to fill up, no thanks!

    Yeah, I can tell you only have seen the old diesels. The new ones are so much better. The stuff the US will get will be cleaner than what I'm currently driving now.
    don't judge all diesels until you have some current facts.
    The new Honda diesel will get 50mpg and have 250ft/lbs of torque! That's out of a 4 cyl!
    Who mentioned Saab? Awful car and a GM toady company.
    Read up on the new diesels and diesel fuel is all new and more available in most places as well.
    Or do you think the big rigs run on gas? :P
  • dstew1dstew1 Posts: 275
    Saying "ouch" to 26mpg from a WRX because you're used to driving a diesel Hilux is like me saying "ouch" to your 40+ mpg because I ride a bicycle and don't have to pay for any gas.

    Let's compare apples to apples. You used to drive a WRX - you know comparing it to a diesel is not a fair comparison.

    Beyond that, the only positive things I think I remember you saying in the last 10 pages about the upcoming WRX revolve around the interior. Everything else has been a criticism, and when someone makes a counterpoint, it seems to go by the wayside because Subaru hasn't built the car that YOU wanted. Obviously you are entitlted to your opinion, and this is a forum for discussion, but as a lurker/occasional poster on this thread MY opinion is that re-hashing the same criticisms about LSD, appearance, performance, etc, are not adding to the conversation.

    This car has not even been released to the public yet. Until then, most discussion about one's willingness to purchase it or not is pure speculation. In the meantime I have seen you come up with every reason in the book as to why this may not be the car for you. I could do the same thing on a Chevy Cobalt thread, as I have no intention of buying one and lots of reasons why I wouldn't.

    Sorry for the gripe, but I think anyone keeping tabs on this thread knows where you stand by now.

    Doug
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    VCM on the Odyssey has been a bit disappointing, out in the real world the Direct Injection 2GR engine in the Sienna actually gets better mileage. Maybe it's too heavy to run on 3 cylinders much of the time.


    I get mileage ranging from 29-33mpg Hwy in the Odyssey with VCM (calculated mileage not some on-board computer mileage), depending on how much under 65mph or over 75mph, I stay on the Hwy. This mileage was obtained after the Odyssey crossed the 20K mark. Prior to that, I used to get in the 21-24 mpg Hwy range when new (which was disappointing to me at that time) and around 24-26 after around 10K miles (which I was satisfied with at the time, considering the size of the vehicle). I think the optimal mileage comes when the Odyssey hits the 20K and beyond mark, which is what people say about all Hondas, for whatever reason. This are real world numbers not some numbers published on a window sticker on on a Govt EPA site.

    So when you say disappointing, I tend to think otherwise, since getting 33mpg HWY (or 21mpg City) on a large 8-seater equipped with a Gas engine, is PHENOMENAL at the very least. For reference, my friend's Sienna with AWD, gets around 18-20mpg on the highway and he is not a lead foot by any means. Also, I get around 22 combined 40%City/60%Hwy MPG in my WRX as an added aside but this number should hopefully improve as the engine is broken in over the next several thousand miles.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    During some recent business trips, I had driven several rental cars, including the Pontiac G6, the VW Jetta, Hyundai Sonata V6 the Volvo S40 and the Saturn Ion, which I obviously compared with my new REX.

    The G6 is okay but the turning circle was horrendous. The handling is reasonable, till you push it. The acceleration off the line is great...not so great at higher rpms.

    The VW Jetta was nice for the most part, except for the steering feel....very artificial. I badly missed the steering feel of the REX, when driving the Jetta. The steering boost seemed to be lagging behind the actual turn of the wheel....extremely disappointing, considering that the rest of the product was pretty well executed.

    The Hyundai Sonata would absolutely blast off the line...very powerful engine. Very spacious vehicle too. The handling and steering feel are poor, however.

    The Volvo S40 (with 2.4L 5 cylinder engine) was a good handler, with very good steering feel. Comparable to the REX (except for power) in the handling department, even though the REX still has the edge....the interior is more spacious than the REX, however. In terms of power and handling when pushed, the REX would humiliate this Volvo. The tiny buttons for all controls in the Volvo, was an ergonomic disaster.

    The Saturn Ion was a complete disappointment. Noodle soft suspension that kept on bobbing up and down with every imperfection on the road. Very unsatisfying with poor steering feel and weak engine. I will avoid this car at all costs during future trips.

    Among all the above cars, I will pick the Volvo, if available that is, during my upcoming trips, since overall that was the most satisfying. The Jetta was okay for the most part, except for the extremely artificial steering (probably some kind of electronic steering, trying to simulate the feel of other Teutonic products but not quite succeeding).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We shouldn't compare a Sienna with AWD, and I'm talking about the 2007s with the more efficient 3.5l engine specifically.

    Mine has 1800 miles and I've already had trips of 28.8, 29.8, and at one point 31.3 mpg. Adjust down about 0.4 mpg for the optimistic trip computer (per my calculations).

    Still, great for what's not even broken in yet.

    Glad to hear VCM is more effective with age. I hung out in the Ody threads when it came out and the numbers reported with/without VCM were virtually the same. That's what I meant by "disappointing" because it was the single thing I most looked forward too when the Ody came out.
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Let's compare apples to apples. You used to drive a WRX - you know comparing it to a diesel is not a fair comparison.

    Yeah it's not fair because the Hi-Lux cost me $15K and the WRX was $24.5K.
    The point is whenever anyone buys a car it's an emotional purchase and it's also a financial purchase.
    Yes I'm unhappy about a few things that Subaru changed but you know what? It's my money and Subaru wants it as do other car makers.
    So while I am the more vocal member on the forum lots of people don't like the styling and the fact that the LSD is gone etc...
    But also i don't see a lot of info being posted by anyone that is factual it's some things slowly coming out but. I've owned a LOT of different cars and I don't have to prove that to anyone.
    For $25K I really wanted a WRX updated with more performance which it doesn't have. Read up in it if you don't believe me. Also I am still considering buying the car. I looked at quite a few cars also and I am no longer a part of the forums of cars I am not considering buying. I'm not trolling and I'm not a lurker. I post and respond. If the Host doesn't like this I am certain I will get an email telling me to stop posting.

    So are you going to buy a 2008 WRX or are you just lurking on a board with no thought of buying what is being talked about? Or are you considering a 2008 WRX?
    I mean where i stand is clear, where you stand is not.
  • aaykayaaykay Posts: 539
    "VCM" does not get more effective with age...it is the Honda Engine that becomes more efficient as the odometer piles on the miles...I guess it plateaus at around the 25K mark. People say the same about all Honda engines. Mine has now approached the 45K mark and the mileage has been steady for the past 20K miles.

    I did not know about the 2007 engine changes in the Sienna. My friend's car is a 2006 AWD Sienna and he drives like a grandma most of the time to get his 18-20mpg range on the HIGHWAY (I get better than that in the CITY in the Odyssey with VCM). Also, being a part-time AWD system (I assume), the mileage should be very close to a Front-wheel-drive Sienna (maybe a couple of miles off). But as you say, if they were able to make the Sienna engine magically more efficient in 2007, with the DI, then good for the owners. I think if they were to put on 4-wheel independent suspension and improve the driving dynamics of the Sienna (to at least compare with the Odyssey), I would gladly go for the Sienna but whenever I drive the Sienna, it feels like driving a big rig as opposed to a large car feel in the Odyssey.
  • dstew1dstew1 Posts: 275
    Yeah it's not fair because the Hi-Lux cost me $15K and the WRX was $24.5K.

    Yeah, and a Versa can be had for $12K and will get 35mpg, and is a 4 door hatch just like the WRX, but that still doesn't make them comparable from a categorical standpoint. Most consumers won't be cross-shopping the two, and the same goes for the WRX and your Hilux.

    Yes I'm unhappy about a few things that Subaru changed but you know what? It's my money and Subaru wants it as do other car makers.
    So while I am the more vocal member on the forum lots of people don't like the styling and the fact that the LSD is gone etc...


    How many people don't like the styling and other changes Subaru has made to the car will not ultimately be determined by the loudest voices on a message board - it will be determined by units sold. I wager that the changes will boost WRX sales overall; whether the same people are buying them as bought the current version is not quite as important. As long as they can find a couple new customers for every one that feels abandoned, they're doing ok.

    For $25K I really wanted a WRX updated with more performance which it doesn't have. Read up in it if you don't believe me.

    From everything I've read, performance seems to have remained about the same. But performance hasn't been one of the complaints about the current model - it is still one of the top performers in its class, and with all of the aftermarket options available it can easily attain whatever level of performance the owner likes. OTOH, the boy-racer image, fit and finish, interior room, etc, were what a lot of shoppers (and owners who have posted on this forum) have found less than desireable about the current model. That is what Subaru set out to improve upon, while maintaining a similar level of performance. A lot of people think they have done so, myself included. If you want more performance, either Subaru (in the form of the STI) or the aftermarket can offer that to you. But in my opinion, focusing on making it faster/sportier wouldn't stand to gain them as many new customers as making it more mature - the people who care solely about its performance are probably already in the fold.

    So are you going to buy a 2008 WRX or are you just lurking on a board with no thought of buying what is being talked about? Or are you considering a 2008 WRX?
    I mean where i stand is clear, where you stand is not.


    I wouldn't be in the market for one for another year or two, but beyond that my fiance's car will need to be replaced and a new Impreza is near the top of the list. Which trim will depend on what suits us best at that time - as the satisfied owner of a Forester XT, naturally I'm drawn by the WRX, but would love to have the diesel as an option as well in a couple years. But for her needs, the 2.5I is probably perfectly capable.

    I am perfectly happy with my '06 FXT, and hope not to have to replace it for a long time. Depends on how tempting Subaru makes the '09 Foresters look though...

    Doug
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Yeah, and a Versa can be had for $12K and will get 35mpg, and is a 4 door hatch just like the WRX, but that still doesn't make them comparable from a categorical standpoint. Most consumers won't be cross-shopping the two, and the same goes for the WRX and your Hilux.

    True they won't and they will most likely be driving on nice US roads as well. I could have bought a diesel car but the roads are awful here so the truck was more durable and more likely to survive. No chance a Versa would last any length of time here before being beat to pieces by the awful roads.
    So it was a matter of neccesity.

    How many people don't like the styling and other changes Subaru has made to the car will not ultimately be determined by the loudest voices on a message board - it will be determined by units sold. I wager that the changes will boost WRX sales overall; whether the same people are buying them as bought the current version is not quite as important. As long as they can find a couple new customers for every one that feels abandoned, they're doing ok.

    I'm hardly the loudest and I'm certainly not the only one unhappy about certain aspects of the new Impreza. I'm not going to stop posting because you disagree with my opinion. Why don't you become a Host and start a mutual admiration society where everyone agrees on a particular car in everyway? This way you won't have any problem with opinions you don't like?
    I thought this group was for discussion but I guess you just want everyone to agree that the WRX is awesome and has no flaws.
    Subaru will have sales figures every month. Let's see how they do. Unless you can tell teh future then we have to wait until teh car is actually for sale.

    From everything I've read, performance seems to have remained about the same. But performance hasn't been one of the complaints about the current model - it is still one of the top performers in its class, and with all of the aftermarket options

    Sorry but you are wrong, lots of bad reviews on the 2007 WRX as it's gotten very dated and not much info on the new 2008 yet.
    As far as aftermarket well hell I cay buy a civic and build that into a monster. I'm more concerned about stock with very few if any mods. i'm not 18 anymore and I have no problem with guys modding their cars. I just don't bother and it generally hurts resale.

    OTOH, the boy-racer image, fit and finish, interior room, etc, were what a lot of shoppers (and owners who have posted on this forum) have found less than desirable about the current model. That is what Subaru set out to improve upon, while maintaining a similar level of performance. A lot of people think they have done so, myself included. If you want more performance, either Subaru (in the form of the STI) or the aftermarket can offer that to you. But in my opinion, focusing on making it faster/sportier wouldn't stand to gain them as many new customers as making it more mature - the people who care solely about its performance are probably already in the fold.

    Sorry but my older WRX was hardly boy racer but at least it looked good. I had the wing deleted as it's non-functional. Yes teh older I want a Camry look-a-like people who want to blend in with teh crowd is who Subaru is going after. That's good for them. I don't think the new WRX will stand out at all unless you light it on fire and drive it around a fire station.
    They went from good to bland with that new nose and we will see if it sells them more cars.
    Honestly they could have made it look better and left the other bits in to keep teh performance teh same.
    If people who already care about performance are already in teh Fold then who are they appealing to their older loyal customers or new ones? the idea is to attract new car buyers who want performance and yet blend in with all the other cars. I don't think it will work out in teh long term but short term it's possible.

    I wouldn't be in the market for one for another year or two, but beyond that my fiance's car will need to be replaced and a new Impreza is near the top of the list. Which trim will depend on what suits us best at that time - as the satisfied owner of a Forester XT, naturally I'm drawn by the WRX, but would love to have the diesel as an option as well in a couple years. But for her needs, the 2.5I is probably perfectly capable.

    I agree the diesel would be my first pick, but many other companies will have diesels out before Subaru because they are a small company and can't afford to do too much at one time.
    The Forester is nice if you need a vehicle like that.
    I'm still debating between 5 different cars and all for their own reasons.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    You guys also don't understand that an LSD is NOT a locker. It will only limit the slip, and various ones have a varing degree of limiting the slip. As I said the Mini version of the LSD does not prevent slippage very much at only 20%. The LSDs we are talking about aren't like an Eaton Locker or even something found on an old posi-rear.

    On the Armada's version of the VDC, have you ever driven one? They are 4-wheel indy suspension, with quite good handling for a 5100lb vehicle. It's actually fairly similar to a larger version of an outback in terms of dimensions and handling. As I said, the VDC flicked on and off as we carved the icy mountain road, w/o interfereing with the driving characteristics.

    -mike
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    You guys also don't understand that an LSD is NOT a locker. It will only limit the slip, and various ones have a varying degree of limiting the slip. As I said the Mini version of the LSD does not prevent slippage very much at only 20%. The LSDs we are talking about aren't like an Eaton Locker or even something found on an old posi-rear.

    Sure i understand that it's not a locker, but it does help and it is now no longer on the new car. Maybe most people don't need or want it. i do but I know I can't have it.
    Not much left to say about the 2008 WRX until it comes out then because all that can be said has been said already.
    Once it's released it will no longer be a future vehicle so we won't have to guess and postulate about things as we will have all the info and can drive one.
    It doesn't stop the BMW guys tho. The 1 series looks darn nice but price is unknown. :(
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,674
    Why don't you become a Host and start a mutual admiration society where everyone agrees on a particular car in everyway?

    Cheap shot, and uncalled for.

    Why don't we wait for actual road tests of US-spec versions before declaring it a winner or loser. Edmunds already has one in their test pool, but can't post anything until August 1 due to a news embargo.

    Bob
  • dstew1dstew1 Posts: 275
    True they won't and they will most likely be driving on nice US roads as well. I could have bought a diesel car but the roads are awful here so the truck was more durable and more likely to survive. No chance a Versa would last any length of time here before being beat to pieces by the awful roads.
    So it was a matter of neccesity.


    Obviously your diesel Hilux is more suited for bad roads than a Nissan Versa, that wasn't the point of my comment. My point was what does the fuel economy of your diesel pickup have to do with a turbocharged sports wagon?

    I'm hardly the loudest and I'm certainly not the only one unhappy about certain aspects of the new Impreza. I'm not going to stop posting because you disagree with my opinion. Why don't you become a Host and start a mutual admiration society where everyone agrees on a particular car in everyway? This way you won't have any problem with opinions you don't like? I thought this group was for discussion but I guess you just want everyone to agree that the WRX is awesome and has no flaws.

    I never said that you were the loudest or that you were alone in your criticisms, or that I do not find any flaws with the new Impreza. I am not a huge fan of the new styling, but it is perfectly acceptable and would not prevent me from buying one. Sure I wish they'd improved performance a bit; heck, I wish it came w/350hp and still stickered at $24K, but that ain't gonna happen. I'm not complaining about it because I've accepted the fact that Subaru needs to sell cars to the masses, not just us enthusiasts. If I want more performance, I'll go aftermarket just like I've done with my FXT. As a business, I feel that Subaru is doing what they need to do to stay afloat. Could it be better executed? Obviously. But they are heading in a good direction.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Since we can't get a Hilux diesel here, it's a mute point to even bring it up. I'd love to have a lot of cars not available here, but we can only work with what we got.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    You guys also don't understand that an LSD is NOT a locker. It will only limit the slip, and various ones have a varing degree of limiting the slip. As I said the Mini version of the LSD does not prevent slippage very much at only 20%. The LSDs we are talking about aren't like an Eaton Locker or even something found on an old posi-rear.

    Which is still more than 0% which is what will be in '08. I just trust mechanical things more then electronic at this point.

    On the Armada's version of the VDC, have you ever driven one? They are 4-wheel indy suspension, with quite good handling for a 5100lb vehicle. It's actually fairly similar to a larger version of an outback in terms of dimensions and handling. As I said, the VDC flicked on and off as we carved the icy mountain road, w/o interfering with the driving characteristics.

    I have towed with one a couple of times over relatively short distances, so not a whole lot of experience. I felt that it did an admirable job of hiding its heft, like the LRs do. That said, 5100lbs 4-5' off the ground isn't like 3500 ~1' off the ground. I think high profile vehicles stand to benefit a great deal from DSC. The MazdaSpeed6 has it as well, and its defeatable.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    That said, 5100lbs 4-5' off the ground isn't like 3500 ~1' off the ground.

    My truck isn't 4-5' off the ground at all, it's wider, longer, taller than an OB but still similar dimensions proportionally.

    I do occassionally turn off the VDC on the Ramada and the ABLS (Anti-lock Brake Limited Slip) doesn't turn off and I can lay a patch with both rear wheels :)

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    My truck isn't 4-5' off the ground at all, it's wider, longer, taller than an OB but still similar dimensions proportionally.

    I do occassionally turn off the VDC on the Ramada and the ABLS (Anti-lock Brake Limited Slip) doesn't turn off and I can lay a patch with both rear wheels


    Nissan Armada — Height: 78.7 in (1999 MM)

    According to http://www.answers.com/topic/nissan-armada


    So the top is over 6 feet, almost 7.

    Ground clearance There is also a high ground clearance (9.9 inches for 2WD models, 10.6 for 4WD models)

    The bottom is about a foot (not counting the big heavy wheels).

    So 5100 lbs is centered 3-4 off the ground, I was off by a foot. I don't think it changes my point.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    And what's the ground clearance on the outback? Most of the weight of my vehicle is not in the roof, far from it. The engine and frame is set fairly low.

    Your point is what? All I said that proportionally to the height and weight of the OB the Armada is fairly comprable.

    You don't have to agree with me, but I've driven both fairly extensively. The armada is significantly wider and longer than an outback but the handling is significantly similar.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The OB is a few inches lower (GC ~8in) and height is over 15" lower. The Armada, as you mentioned is like 5100 lbs and the Subaru is almost a TON less than that.

    I don't think one is that similar to the other.

    I think the whole conversation was about stability control, and I do agree the OB could use something like that, since it lacks the handling performance of the regular Legacy anyway.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The point is that VDC is NOT a bad performance item. You guys can poo-poo vdc all you want, however, being a track instructor, holding a racing liscence along with an instructor certification, I'm fairly certain I'm qualified to give some real good input on how well ABLS and VDC work in a peformance arena.

    How many of those folks out there poo-pooing the VDC system on the new WRX have thousands and thousands of track miles under their belt? How many hold any certifications for performance driving?

    Oh yeah you can poo-poo it all you want, guess what? You'll still have to step up to an STi to get a viscous or mechanical LSD, so it's pretty much mute at this point.

    I'm sorry lilengineerboy can't understand how my driving with VDC on my Armada could translate to how the VDC implementation on the WRX might work.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Oh yeah you can poo-poo it all you want, guess what? You'll still have to step up to an STi to get a viscous or mechanical LSD, so it's pretty much mute at this point.

    I think that is exactly the point, they reduced the performance of the pre-existing product with the new version.

    I'm sorry lilengineerboy can't understand how my driving with VDC on my Armada could translate to how the VDC implementation on the WRX might work.

    I have no issue with DSC/VDC as a safety item, but as a performance item, eh not so much. Having done some track stuff myself and a lot of autocross, braking a wheel that isn't on the ground or is totally unloaded doesn't do a lot for performance one way or the other.

    Now as they get to ACTIVE suspensions that can pre-load a sway bar or torsen bar or adjust shock valving or fluid viscosity on the fly and actually IMPROVE the handling of the vehicle instead of dumbing it down, I'm all for that
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    If you are a good driver, LSD or not you will be a good driver. Having VDC won't effect you. It goes back to the same old addage of fixing the nut behind the wheel.

    We race a 1994 Legacy Turbo with no LSD, no VDC, or anything like that, guess what? We still win, because we are good drivers.

    The LSD does not add that much of an edge to the car in the real world. If you lose and auto-x without an LSD, you would probably have lost the event with an LSD. Same goes for a track event.

    However the VDC system will help sell more cars than the LSD will, and that's what Subaru is in business to do.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    If you are a good driver, LSD or not you will be a good driver. Having VDC won't effect you. It goes back to the same old addage of fixing the nut behind the wheel.

    Coming out of "offramp" at Buttonwillow going clockwise, the two open-diff'd FWD cars were fine if I was patient. The weak NX2k did a lot better on corner exit (I could give it gas a lot earlier) because I could put down power sooner.

    We race a 1994 Legacy Turbo with no LSD, no VDC, or anything like that, guess what? We still win, because we are good drivers.

    When I first started w/autocross, it was one big novice group. That first season, I was beating considerably more advanced hardware. By the next season, my cohort had learned how to drive and the cars actually started to matter. Then tires and shocks and everything the rules let us modify started to matter.

    I do agree that driving skill is the biggest variable, once you start to get into a group of people who know what they are doing at least a little bit, the edge is important.

    However the VDC system will help sell more cars than the LSD will, and that's what Subaru is in business to do.

    I don't know if it will sell a lot more cars or not. Subaru is a niche manufacturer...they are never going to be a Honda or Toyota. They have a loyal (or should I say Loyale) following of many enthusiasts. Most people who cross shop Toyota and Honda don't look at Subaru, so I wouldn't expect a whole lot of conquest sales. And now they are alienating their base customers. I guess we will see how it will play out.
    Right now I am leaning towards the '07 Speed6
  • schweikbschweikb Posts: 111
    I went to my local Subaru dealer Saturday and tried on a Legacy sedan for size. I am 6' 3" with long legs. The dealer said I probably would not fit well since Subaru's are not designed for persons over 5' 10" or so. He was right, I touched the sunroof frame on top and the seat bottom was way too short - more than half of my upper leg was not supported. He said that other than that aspect, Subaru's are great vehicles and sought my agreement. I said I found the door slamming to sound cheap with the heavy glass panel noticeably shaking when I shut the door with the window down. I questioned why Subaru would continue to have fameless doors when it makes the cars seem cheap. He went off on a lengthy discussion of how Subaru's had frameless windows because the visibility was better (I asked how so - he just kept re-asserting that it was so) and that the noise and weather sealing with frameless was much better. He proudly proclaimed that all Subaru cars always had and always will have frameless windows because of the advantages they offer above and beyond the competition. He said the Tribeca has framed door windows because it is only a truck and the features such as visibility and sound sealing are not so important on trucks. I said that since the "new" Impreza was going to have framed door windows, what did that mean with regard to his previous comments. He denied that the new Impreza would have framed door windows, that he had been thoroughly briefed on that car and that no Subaru car would ever have framed windows. He then said he had photos and would show me. He took out the brochure and sure enough the car has framed windows - just the thing he said it would never have. The man abruptly walked away, ignored my subsequent questions and when I left the showroom and hollered over “good bye”, he turned away looking up at the ceiling. That guy was such a loser it turned me off on Subaru from t least that dealer. I guess they better get a new line of BS regarding the portion of the Subaru model line that still has the frameless windows.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,505
    Actually in many ways he was right. Frameless windows have many advantages, from which better structural integrity (read crashworthiness) is the most important. Sealing is another one (have you notices sizes of the seals). However, it is fair enough to say the frameless doors sound cheap - one of my largest complaints on my Impreza.

    I guess in quest for capturing larger audience Subaru made yet another compromise.

    The guy was so committed to his devine revelations that could not face you after you brought him down. I noticed it happens to many people - they cannot take being told and proven the're wrong.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

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