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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    That said, 5100lbs 4-5' off the ground isn't like 3500 ~1' off the ground.

    My truck isn't 4-5' off the ground at all, it's wider, longer, taller than an OB but still similar dimensions proportionally.

    I do occassionally turn off the VDC on the Ramada and the ABLS (Anti-lock Brake Limited Slip) doesn't turn off and I can lay a patch with both rear wheels :)

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    My truck isn't 4-5' off the ground at all, it's wider, longer, taller than an OB but still similar dimensions proportionally.

    I do occassionally turn off the VDC on the Ramada and the ABLS (Anti-lock Brake Limited Slip) doesn't turn off and I can lay a patch with both rear wheels


    Nissan Armada — Height: 78.7 in (1999 MM)

    According to http://www.answers.com/topic/nissan-armada


    So the top is over 6 feet, almost 7.

    Ground clearance There is also a high ground clearance (9.9 inches for 2WD models, 10.6 for 4WD models)

    The bottom is about a foot (not counting the big heavy wheels).

    So 5100 lbs is centered 3-4 off the ground, I was off by a foot. I don't think it changes my point.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    And what's the ground clearance on the outback? Most of the weight of my vehicle is not in the roof, far from it. The engine and frame is set fairly low.

    Your point is what? All I said that proportionally to the height and weight of the OB the Armada is fairly comprable.

    You don't have to agree with me, but I've driven both fairly extensively. The armada is significantly wider and longer than an outback but the handling is significantly similar.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    The OB is a few inches lower (GC ~8in) and height is over 15" lower. The Armada, as you mentioned is like 5100 lbs and the Subaru is almost a TON less than that.

    I don't think one is that similar to the other.

    I think the whole conversation was about stability control, and I do agree the OB could use something like that, since it lacks the handling performance of the regular Legacy anyway.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The point is that VDC is NOT a bad performance item. You guys can poo-poo vdc all you want, however, being a track instructor, holding a racing liscence along with an instructor certification, I'm fairly certain I'm qualified to give some real good input on how well ABLS and VDC work in a peformance arena.

    How many of those folks out there poo-pooing the VDC system on the new WRX have thousands and thousands of track miles under their belt? How many hold any certifications for performance driving?

    Oh yeah you can poo-poo it all you want, guess what? You'll still have to step up to an STi to get a viscous or mechanical LSD, so it's pretty much mute at this point.

    I'm sorry lilengineerboy can't understand how my driving with VDC on my Armada could translate to how the VDC implementation on the WRX might work.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Oh yeah you can poo-poo it all you want, guess what? You'll still have to step up to an STi to get a viscous or mechanical LSD, so it's pretty much mute at this point.

    I think that is exactly the point, they reduced the performance of the pre-existing product with the new version.

    I'm sorry lilengineerboy can't understand how my driving with VDC on my Armada could translate to how the VDC implementation on the WRX might work.

    I have no issue with DSC/VDC as a safety item, but as a performance item, eh not so much. Having done some track stuff myself and a lot of autocross, braking a wheel that isn't on the ground or is totally unloaded doesn't do a lot for performance one way or the other.

    Now as they get to ACTIVE suspensions that can pre-load a sway bar or torsen bar or adjust shock valving or fluid viscosity on the fly and actually IMPROVE the handling of the vehicle instead of dumbing it down, I'm all for that
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    If you are a good driver, LSD or not you will be a good driver. Having VDC won't effect you. It goes back to the same old addage of fixing the nut behind the wheel.

    We race a 1994 Legacy Turbo with no LSD, no VDC, or anything like that, guess what? We still win, because we are good drivers.

    The LSD does not add that much of an edge to the car in the real world. If you lose and auto-x without an LSD, you would probably have lost the event with an LSD. Same goes for a track event.

    However the VDC system will help sell more cars than the LSD will, and that's what Subaru is in business to do.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    If you are a good driver, LSD or not you will be a good driver. Having VDC won't effect you. It goes back to the same old addage of fixing the nut behind the wheel.

    Coming out of "offramp" at Buttonwillow going clockwise, the two open-diff'd FWD cars were fine if I was patient. The weak NX2k did a lot better on corner exit (I could give it gas a lot earlier) because I could put down power sooner.

    We race a 1994 Legacy Turbo with no LSD, no VDC, or anything like that, guess what? We still win, because we are good drivers.

    When I first started w/autocross, it was one big novice group. That first season, I was beating considerably more advanced hardware. By the next season, my cohort had learned how to drive and the cars actually started to matter. Then tires and shocks and everything the rules let us modify started to matter.

    I do agree that driving skill is the biggest variable, once you start to get into a group of people who know what they are doing at least a little bit, the edge is important.

    However the VDC system will help sell more cars than the LSD will, and that's what Subaru is in business to do.

    I don't know if it will sell a lot more cars or not. Subaru is a niche manufacturer...they are never going to be a Honda or Toyota. They have a loyal (or should I say Loyale) following of many enthusiasts. Most people who cross shop Toyota and Honda don't look at Subaru, so I wouldn't expect a whole lot of conquest sales. And now they are alienating their base customers. I guess we will see how it will play out.
    Right now I am leaning towards the '07 Speed6
  • schweikbschweikb Posts: 111
    I went to my local Subaru dealer Saturday and tried on a Legacy sedan for size. I am 6' 3" with long legs. The dealer said I probably would not fit well since Subaru's are not designed for persons over 5' 10" or so. He was right, I touched the sunroof frame on top and the seat bottom was way too short - more than half of my upper leg was not supported. He said that other than that aspect, Subaru's are great vehicles and sought my agreement. I said I found the door slamming to sound cheap with the heavy glass panel noticeably shaking when I shut the door with the window down. I questioned why Subaru would continue to have fameless doors when it makes the cars seem cheap. He went off on a lengthy discussion of how Subaru's had frameless windows because the visibility was better (I asked how so - he just kept re-asserting that it was so) and that the noise and weather sealing with frameless was much better. He proudly proclaimed that all Subaru cars always had and always will have frameless windows because of the advantages they offer above and beyond the competition. He said the Tribeca has framed door windows because it is only a truck and the features such as visibility and sound sealing are not so important on trucks. I said that since the "new" Impreza was going to have framed door windows, what did that mean with regard to his previous comments. He denied that the new Impreza would have framed door windows, that he had been thoroughly briefed on that car and that no Subaru car would ever have framed windows. He then said he had photos and would show me. He took out the brochure and sure enough the car has framed windows - just the thing he said it would never have. The man abruptly walked away, ignored my subsequent questions and when I left the showroom and hollered over “good bye”, he turned away looking up at the ceiling. That guy was such a loser it turned me off on Subaru from t least that dealer. I guess they better get a new line of BS regarding the portion of the Subaru model line that still has the frameless windows.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    Actually in many ways he was right. Frameless windows have many advantages, from which better structural integrity (read crashworthiness) is the most important. Sealing is another one (have you notices sizes of the seals). However, it is fair enough to say the frameless doors sound cheap - one of my largest complaints on my Impreza.

    I guess in quest for capturing larger audience Subaru made yet another compromise.

    The guy was so committed to his devine revelations that could not face you after you brought him down. I noticed it happens to many people - they cannot take being told and proven the're wrong.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The Sienna's AWD system, surprisingly, is actually full-time. Newer Toyota systems like what's used in the RAV4 are part-time and IMO less effective.

    Also, surprisingly, the Sienna is actually a tad lighter than the Ody. I actually liked the solid feel it had vs. the lighter feeling Ody. It also rides better, though the Ody handles better by far. It all depends on what you want from a van.

    Any how, we're veering off topic here, hop over to the van threads if you want to discuss further.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    I do think frameless windows have good advantages (supposedly allowing more metal to be incorporated to the door frame, making for easier loading of awkward objects, not smashing fingers in the door, sleeker looks). They are prone to wind noise when not properly adjusted, and rattle if they're closed partway down, both of which are minor things compared to the advantages, but I think people's perception of rattling windows as cheap construction was heard often enough for Subaru to abandon frameless windows in favor of changing that "cheap" perception to improve image and thereby increase sales.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Thinner pillars, too, which mean smaller blind spots. Visibility in the Forester was about the best I've ever seen, on any car. Yet they still managed to make it safe in crash tests.
  • dino001dino001 Tampa, FLPosts: 3,426
    Yet they still managed to make it safe in crash tests.

    That was accomplished by better structural shape of the pillar itself having no "distractions" from door frame.

    2012 BMW 328i wagon, manual and sports package. No. sold in the US: 1. Probably.

  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    In a situation where you need that edge to "win" then the cost of swapping in a mechanical LSD would be very small. As I said, when you get to the level where having an LSD will matter means you have considerable $$$$ invested and have considerable $$$$ at stake to win.

    As for "alienating the enthusiasts" means basically alienating the posers who wish they were racers. They want to be able to say "I have an LSD, therefore I'm a race car driver" when VDC would most likely serve them far better.

    I think this topic has been beaten to death, essentially the wanna-be racers want the LSD on the mid-level trim car so they can say "look I have an LSD" Real racers have the $ to get an STi or put in an LSD aftermarket or are good enough they don't need an LSD :)

    I looked at the mazdaspeed6, liked it but didn't like the transverse engine and really didn't like the fact that the Mazda folks didn't at all try to persuade me away from a LGT. I ended up with an '05 LGT 30k miles on it 5MT wagon and so far I'm having a blast with it.

    -mike
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    In a situation where you need that edge to "win" then the cost of swapping in a mechanical LSD would be very small. As I said, when you get to the level where having an LSD will matter means you have considerable $$$$ invested and have considerable $$$$ at stake to win.

    Its not a matter of cash, its a matter of classification in the SCCA rule book. I figured you would be familiar with this because of your racing past. In stock or nearly stock classes, they frown on opening transmissions and stuff. It gave the car an edge.

    essentially the wanna-be racers want the LSD on the mid-level trim car so they can say "look I have an LSD" Real racers have the $ to get an STi or put in an LSD aftermarket or are good enough they don't need an LSD

    I actually think its the opposite, I don't think most people care if it has an LSD or not, most wanna-bes just want the big wing on the STI. As far as if you are good you don't need an LSD, eh I don't buy that, its an edge, just like using P-zeros in stock tire classes instead of Michelin MXV4s. If you are good and you are racing against a group that lacks opposing thumbs, then I can understand not needing the best equipment, but outside of that, if it gives me an edge I want it.

    I looked at the mazdaspeed6, liked it but didn't like the transverse engine and really didn't like the fact that the Mazda folks didn't at all try to persuade me away from a LGT. I ended up with an '05 LGT 30k miles on it 5MT wagon and so far I'm having a blast with it.

    Yeah you found the needle in the haystack with that. I certainly wouldn't mind one of those either to replace the base Legacy 2.5i wagon we have now. I actually liked the gearbox better on the Mazda, but yeah, I concur about the engine being in sideways. Its fun when you turn on the Subie and feel the kick because the engine is in right.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Its not a matter of cash, its a matter of classification in the SCCA rule book. I figured you would be familiar with this because of your racing past. In stock or nearly stock classes, they frown on opening transmissions and stuff. It gave the car an edge.

    Actually the way that the SCCA rule book is setup is they will take into account the LSD when they classify it. Same goes for most other sanctioning bodies.

    I actually think its the opposite, I don't think most people care if it has an LSD or not, most wanna-bes just want the big wing on the STI. As far as if you are good you don't need an LSD, eh I don't buy that, its an edge, just like using P-zeros in stock tire classes instead of Michelin MXV4s. If you are good and you are racing against a group that lacks opposing thumbs, then I can understand not needing the best equipment, but outside of that, if it gives me an edge I want it.

    Tires make a significantly bigger difference than an LSD does. If you are running in a spec class then everyone has or doesn't have an LSD. I understand your point of the edge but I don't really know anyone who is THAT good that a few PSI here or there in your tires or an LSD will make or break you as a driver. Try harder :)

    -mike
  • schweikbschweikb Posts: 111
    Thanks for the interesting comments folks. I did not really mean to come off as anti-Subaru. I am somewhat of a solid door thunk, zero interior squeaks person. I would put up with slow acceleration, bad mpg's, anything - as long as it feels solid. A throwback to my fave "oldie" the 1960's - 1970's VW Bug. No frills, just bang the door and off u go. I have several friends who own Subaru's and I have found I tend to bash into the window corner when I get out. I am tall and my style is: stop the car, throw the door open and jump out - a couple of bruises and at least one cut later I now take it careful getting out of a Subaru. The door frame that may block vision when you're driving acts as a reminder to a guy like me that the door is there - maybe they should put little silver stars or birds on the Subi's windows like in hotel lobbies so you don't walk into them - lol!!!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Tires make a significantly bigger difference than an LSD does.

    I concur, I think its the 2nd biggest factor in the whole thing. Early in my track driving days, I was pretty amazed at the difference between "performance tires" and R-compound tires. It was amazing. :D
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Yup, even among R-compunds there is a difference. For instance we ran the Yoko Advan A048R tires on our race car for a practice and were 2-3 seconds slower than we were with Victor Racer V710s on it.

    -mike
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