2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

dino001 · July 2007

They installed the 2.4l engine in 2002 and kept the same engine, same AWD system, it was not a redesign.

Hmmm... Subaru's "legend reborn" has (almost) the same engine, tranny and (I think) AWD as they did in 2005. What does that say about them?

ateixeira · July 2007

Anyone else feel like we're having 3 conversations at once?

Subaru took a page from BMW's book - seperate the introduction of new engines from new platforms so you have fresher products.

When you stagger those, you have more to talk about, and give customers more reasons to come back to the dealer to sample the new engine or new vehicle.

The basic engine is the same, some simple re-tuning, but yes it's a carry-over. There was nothing wrong with it before.

Ask Bob, he owns one. He said he wished it were a little more quiet and refined.

Subaru is addressing exactly those things. Bob didn't ask for more power (doesn't need it).

dino001 · July 2007

I don't have much of a problem with the engine, but the 4-speed auto is a disgrace. 5-speed manual is "a bit" disappointing, but I could still live with that. My experience with Subaru tells me that their "all new" models have a good "excitement" value, but two years later one get MUCH MUCH better deal for the money. Then 2 years from then even added features do not make it much better buy, as it visibly ages. Lets see examples:
WRX - 02-03 fantastic start, but 06 was probably the sweet best one for me as best looking interior and exterior and 2.5 engine (except steering that was somehow lost in translation from earlier models). 07 suddenly looks really old.
Legacy/Outback - similarly good start in '05, but each year brought some substantial content improvements, from better crashworthiness (06) to SI-Drive (07) and FINALLY steering wheel (08). Except of course their terrible decisions of dropping manual from Legacy wgn (06+) and dropping Legacy wagons altogether (08).

Conclusion? Best Impreza will be 2010. They'll fix terrible grill, awful tail lights, we will see CVT or 5-speed auto w/paddles (or perhaps even DSG of sorts - who knows), perhaps even 6-speed MT of WRX, there may be new engine (perhaps still 2.5 but w/ even more pizazz) and they'll add some lacking features in the interior - sunroof, leather, perhaps HID, perhaps more. Those buying today will feel "cheated".

ateixeira · July 2007

4EAT is a mistake, agreed, but it sounds like they were working on a CVT already. I bet we see that one year after the intro.

It's funny, though, I wouldn't even consider a WRX with an autotragic. Just seems like a waste.

I hope they get it together for the Forester. A 4EAT will be a mistake given everyone else in that segment has 5 or even 6 ratios.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Anyone else feel like we're having 3 conversations at once?

Yeah, but its interesting, and really doesn't have so much to do with the WRX anymore at all. I just hope it looks better in person than the pics I've seen so far.

ateixeira · July 2007

It does a little.

I guess what features would help sell the 2008 WRX, any how.

stevecebu · July 2007

So Steve - don't jump all over the place. Mitsubishi looks better, indeed, but so far there is nothing from them to match '08 WRX that we could intelligently talk about.

Granted the WRX has no competitor from Mitsubishi The Ralliart version won't be out until after the EVO is released. The WRX seems to offer very little for the extra $8K it costs tho. One of the forums I am on had pics of the 2008 WRX's on a car lot somewhere, and they were sedans so I guess the new cars are arriving now at dealerships.
The WRX has to offer something for the money and I don't see that it's worth an extra $8K over the base Impreza but I could be wrong. Driving one will tell me that straight away. I've seen pics of the STI and it is not significantly better looking than the EVO as it still has the horrible nose on it. Body cladding can only hide so much and the pics and sound clips of the new EVO make the engine sound tinny and like an old dodge colt but the car looks really great. it probably won't be as reliable as a Subaru but Subaru went the wrong way with the styling and some other mechanical issues.

stevecebu · July 2007

People that buy a WRX for track purposes will likely get an STI anyway, so it simply doesn't matter.
Therefore no muss, no fuss. If you're a true enthusiast and want a track car the STI is for you. The regular WRX is now being equipped with VDC since it's a safety feature that is FAR more appealing to a broad market, and even a requirement to make the IIHS Top Safety Pick list.
Admit this - being an Top IIHS Safety Pick is about 87.3 BILLION (*) times more marketable than having an LSD to a mainstream, car buying public. Maybe even 87.4 billion.

Yes, I agree that Subaru is trying to sell cars to a broader audience. No I do not think it will work in the long run.
Yes I really do get Mikes point about guys who race will buy an STI after all what's an extra $8K or so, nothing really if you race.
The looks are bland so it will appeal to people who are sick of their Hyundai's not having AWD and will probably buy a Subaru instead.
yes i also agree many more people buy cars measured on safety issue alone. 5 star crash test scores and traction control 30 airbags etc....
Also true that most people don't have a clue how their car even works and even few can drive a manual transmission.

That said Subaru does not care about the very people who helped them in the early days and is not interested in the enthusiasts and if you want that sort of thing then put up your money for the STI or shut up! That is what Subaru is saying to me and a few others in this forum as well.
Fine, ok, Subaru can laugh all the way to the bank. Let's see how big a deposit they are going to make once they tick off all the people who would have bought a WRX but don't want to spend over $30K for a Turbo and sport suspension and an LSD.

So simple, yes and it's been steering me away from Subaru and If the Ralliart was coming out before the EVO it might matter. But BMW money for a Subaru which is a niche vehicle that is trying to go luxury and out of the niche market that IT created. Let's see them pull this off.
I think it won't work. Wait until it gets out about the changes and how the car drives, maybe it's better. But I think Subaru buyers are in general pretty smart.
So let's just wait and see what happens.

dino001 · July 2007

Sure, but that's quite different than saying "Oh I don't like WRX, cause Evo is better", which your almost did. You keep saying WRX is "Only" a better engine than 2.5i for 8 grand. I beg to disagree. You get upgrades in at least several crucial areas:
1. 30% more hp in engine
2. transmission
3. suspension
4. brakes
5. wheels
6. seats (believe me - it's a big issue)

I can't say about interior.

By the way - Joe Spitz lists read LSD as standard on '08 WRX. He may be wrong (as the site is clearly developing), but if not wouldn't that be funny?

stevecebu · July 2007

Sales are already up in Japan, so this is not just my opinion, by the way.

No offense but so what? It's a new model, of course sales will be up. The thing is will this tactic by Subaru work in the long run or fail. It's not like Subaru hasn't tried things in the past and failed.

You guys can justify Subaru removing the LSD all you want and love that new exterior but that doesn't mean it's going to sell after the initial hoopla dies down.
I just don't know why anyone who is unhappy with Subaru taking out the LSD gets so blasted for that opinion. It's not just me that thinks that way either.
Here is a link with pics of the new 2008 Subie on a car lot.
Enjoy

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6355041/the-general-forum/new-wrxs-on-the-lot/in- dex.html

stevecebu · July 2007

Sure, but that's quite different than saying "Oh I don't like WRX, cause Evo is better", which your almost did. You keep saying WRX is "Only" a better engine than 2.5i for 8 grand. I beg to disagree. You get upgrades in at least several crucial areas:
1. 30% more hp in engine
2. transmission
3. suspension
4. brakes
5. wheels
6. seats (believe me - it's a big issue)

We covered the increase in HP due to the turbo already, part of my $8K that i said wasn't worth it and as far as the other stuff well for $8K you could do far better aftermarket and since according to other posters only guys who race want this kind of car anyway and will buy an STI.
You can upgrade the WRX from base probably better for less and buy whatever turbo you want. My point is $8k is a lot of money for what they are giving you which except for the new and ugly sheetmetal and a nicer interior doesn't seem like it's worth the premium at this point without having driven the car.
Edmunds isn't the only forum and other forums out there are talking about this and it's generally more negative than positive.
As I said let's just see how the car drives and how it competes. It's already on dealers lots as we speak.
Also keep in mind that I like the look of the EVO much better I think they did a great job with the look of the car but the sound bites from the motor were awful. It had a raspy and tinny sound like an old Dodge Colt.
No idea how it drives but was the real deal and no camo on it. The sound bites were posted on the Lancer Forum.

dino001 · July 2007

OK - you got me lost here. Are we talking 2.5i - WRX jump, or WRX-STi? First you say "I don't want to buy WRX, cause it's too much", than you say "It's easy to upgrade WRX". Man - decide what you are talking about. Then you keep saying Evo this or Evo that, which makes absolutely no sense in context of WRX (STi - different story, but it has no bearing on WRX - none whatsoever).

We get it - you think it looks like crap (so do I) it's way too expensive for what it is (I don't - although I wouldn't mind couple of things, obviously) and you feel hurt by not getting LSD (I'm not - not really).

Allright - we all have our opinions and it's OK to disagree and try to convince each other - that's what this forum is about. The problem is that in support of yours you throw anything short of saying Ferrari looks better and see how it handles and why Subaru isn't getting me that kind of car for 25 grand. That's where my attention really breaks.

I think I'm getting tired. Aren't you? We keep repeating the same stuff over and over. Buy it or not - I don't care. I probably won't, either - for different reasons.

At the end - we really can't say as much until we see it at dealers' lots and get final brochures.

Kirstie_H · July 2007

I'm with you - nitpicking every detail and re-hashing every argument gets really boring, and makes it tedious for others to participate in the discussion. Let's move on.

dino001 · July 2007

I just got confirmation from Subaru rep (by email). Aux input is part of "premium pkg" for both WRX and 2.5i. Pretty stupid - wouldn't you say? So WRX becomes "old TR". One thing that 2 grand "premium" without sunroof at least is a plain travesty. I bet next year some of those "premium" things will make it to base or there will be Special Edition. Whatever

ateixeira · July 2007

Subaru does not care about the very people who helped them in the early days

You think 2002 (the first WRX) was the "early days". You're kidding, right? Is that what you meant?

If so I'm just flabbergasted.

We formed the Subaru Crew back in 1999. I wouldn't even call that the early days, but Subaru had a more well defined demographic back then than it does now.

When the WRX came along it made a few of the old timers happy to have a turbo to upgrade to, but it also brought along a lot of boy-racers and honestly watered down a lot of what we had in common.

that doesn't mean it's going to sell after the initial hoopla dies down.

Initial criticism is more like it. The amount of negative comments on the styling of the new WRX is simply unprecedented. There was a huge outcry.

When when it hit the streets in Japan, it sold better than expected.

No, that's not the USA, but I don't expect any different here.

dino001 · July 2007

With "premium Package" it is now $27,600 MSRP (hatchback). I had mine in 2003 for about $23.5K (AND 3.9% APR for 60 months) plus accessories, it was close to $26K MSRP. Equipment level was about the same as the current "premium" minus contemporaries (aux, steering wheel), safety features (curtains and VDC) - and the interior was hum-drum even for 2003. Engine was 2.0, but lets not hold it against the original version, as 05 came with 2.5 without much of a price bump.

So - accounting for a little inflation (say 10% over 5 years), increased material costs, it's not that bad at face value against its original intro. Will it hold against the competition? That remains to be seen. I just wouldn't call it "Premium" - suggests much more than just better stereo and a few aesthetic effects.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Initial criticism is more like it. The amount of negative comments on the styling of the new WRX is simply unprecedented. There was a huge outcry.

The few pics I've seen are pretty ugly, I am guessing it looks better in person.

jsdugan · July 2007

Is it just me, or does the interior look almost identical to my 03 Mazda Protege5!??? Am I just being negative - not that I don't like my interior.....

paisan · July 2007

I disagree. I think that not having 35k to drop on a car doesn't exclude someone from being an enthusiast. I think I was more of an enthusiast with a $2000 SE-R track sl** (which did have a LSD, btw )than a 35k STI.

That said Subaru does not care about the very people who helped them in the early days and is not interested in the enthusiasts and if you want that sort of thing then put up your money for the STI or shut up! That is what Subaru is saying to me and a few others in this forum as well.
Fine, ok, Subaru can laugh all the way to the bank. Let's see how big a deposit they are going to make once they tick off all the people who would have bought a WRX but don't want to spend over $30K for a Turbo and sport suspension and an LSD.

Here is the thing. If you are going to be driving in HPDE, Wheel to Wheel or Rally, then you are prepared to lose a $25K car, since insurance doesn't cover your car in a competition (even State Farm who used to cover specifically excludes it now) so essentially what we are doing is splitting hairs here.

You guys are upset that the MID-LINE car doesn't come with the LSD. I don't see this as alientating buyers. This would be the equivalent of BMW drivers complaining that the 335i coupe doesn't have an LSD but the M3 does. Same exact scenario here, the manufacturer packages items in the various trim levels to suit what the majority (not all) the prospective buyers will want.

Apparently BMW feels the same as Subaru cause the mid-trim 335i comes with traction control, but no LSD available. The M3 has the M-lock variable rear LSD on it. The M3 also gets lightened suspension components, very similar to the lightened suspension components present on the Spec B v. non spec B and STi v. non-STi versions of the car.

What Subaru is doing is smart, they are basically making the STi the "enthusiast/performance" version of the car with the mainstream getting the similar vehicle but with a more livable setup for the masses.

No one is saying the Subaru is trying to knock Toyota or Honda off their pedestals, anyone who thought they were would not be very smart. However what Subaru is doing is attempting to take a small portion of the Honda/Toyota crowd over to their cars. Think of it this way, even if Subaru only takes a very small fraction of the H/T crowd it would be a BIG amount of sales increase for Subaru. H/T wouldn't even notice it but Subaru would feel it.

-mike

dino001 · July 2007

My "mainstream" complaint is more about generic looks than anything else.

I'm not a racer and I have no problem with performance features.

My much bigger complaint is that Subaru lags significantly to its mainstream competitors in terms of convenience/ambience and now even safety (yes, you heard it) features (mostly non-standard VDC and late curtain intro on Impreza line).

So all I say - when they were "niche", it was forgivable to lag in this content, as the mojo was coming from something else. After mainstream move and watering down their strengths or quirks, they better have all good stuff ready and at good price, or they die slow and painful death, getting thrown into Saab-like oblivion.

advequityguy · July 2007

I heard the STi version includes an mp3 player input and a coupon for 20% off a lobotomy for anyone smart enough to pony up 35 G for a Subaru sub-compact with a 2.5 I-4.

For that kind of jack, I think I'd buy something a bit nicer and a lot less Subaru.

rsholland · July 2007

One of Subaru's biggest safety features is its pro-active full-time AWD. It's meant to keep you "OUT" of an accident.

Subaru has to keep their prices competitive. AWD is not free. It costs money to equip cars with that feature. So if they're spending money there, they have to cut some features in other areas to remain price-competitive.

Everything is a compromise. Subaru (an I) feel the decisions and trade offs they have made to be pretty good ones.

Bob

rsholland · July 2007

Okay, everyone has voiced their opinions on this car, now it's my turn. Here's what I want:

 215/50x17 tires
This is one size up from the current tire. I'm more interested in the "215" part than the "45" part. So a tire with a "50" aspect ratio is fine for me, as it will probably ride better and be quieter.

 6-speed manual
I think we will see this in a year or two. One of the arguments SOA has been saying all along was if the WRX gets a 6-speed, it will hurt STI sales. Well now it looks like the STI will get a DSG tranny option, so that old argument now falls by the wayside.

 Digital gear read-out in base of tach
I'm always forgetting what gear I'm in, and this would solve that problem. Other cars (Acura) have this feature with manual trannys, and so should the WRX and STI. ...And no, this is not a "geezer issue." I cannot hear the engine over all the road noise, and therefore I often find myself in 4th (or 3rd) when I should be in 5th (or 4th).

 Moonroof
I'm sure this is coming. As I said earlier, this is likely missing for this year to keep the MSRP under $30K.

 40GB hard drive
For storing music. This is an option on the JDM model, and I hope they bring it over here. Include a Flash Drive connection along with the HD. With this no longer will you have CDs stuffed in every nook and cranny.

 Fullsize spare tire
Everyone here knows I HATE temp spare tires. That hasn't changed over the years.

 Tweaked grille
I can live with the current grillebut it could be better. The mesh grille that was shown in an STI photo illustration that R&T showed a month or so ago would be perfect!

 Much quieter and more refined than my current '06 WRX Limited
From everything I've read, this may already have been addressed.

 A raised front center armrest
This should be standard!

 Real-time traffic and weather conditions for the NAV
This will be come a must-have feature soon. Subaru needs to offer it.

 NAV w/o satellite radio bundled together
I want NAV, but not satellite radio.

 6EAT w/SportShift option
Not sure we'll see this as it looks like CVTs are the future for Subaru in terms of automatics.

 Front seats with bigger side bolsters
The current seats are borderline here.

 Timing chain
Another old complaint of mine, but I'd rather have a timing chain than a timing belt.

 Heated steering
Another old complaint of mine. BMW and others (Nissan!) offers this, so should Subaru.

 Not wild about the all-red instruments
This BMW-ism is bad design. The instruments need to be color-broken for better and quicker comprehension. Also, there needs to be more space between the fuel and temp gauges, as they almost blend together as one gauge; again hard to read at a glance.

I'm sure there will be additions and/or revisions once I've had a chance to really explore and drive the car.

Bob

dstew1 · July 2007

Subaru has to keep their prices competitive. AWD is not free. It costs money to equip cars with that feature. So if they're spending money there, they have to cut some features in other areas to remain price-competitive.

This is an excellent point to keep in mind that often gets completely overlooked in nitpicky feature/pricing comparisons to other brands.

For Subaru to remain competitive in their pricing, I'd gladly give up the moonroof, premium sound, extra gear in the transmission, etc, in order to keep my full-time AWD. A LOT of Subaru buyers feel the same, I'd wager. Subaru's AWD system is still one of its best selling features.

Whoever said a lot of people don't even know there's a difference between Subaru's system and the others is probably right; but there are a lot of folks who do know it's different, even if they don't understand the technology of it, and don't want to give it up.

Besides, a lot of those premium features can easily be added aftermarket anyway, for those that want them. Those that don't care to have them just saved money.

Doug

lilengineerboy · July 2007

What Subaru is doing is smart, they are basically making the STi the "enthusiast/performance" version of the car with the mainstream getting the similar vehicle but with a more livable setup for the masses.

So what your saying is they should just have the Impreza 2.5 and the STI, since no economy buyer is going to drop 25k for a compact, and anyone who wants a turbo will get the STI?

lilengineerboy · July 2007

 40GB hard drive
For storing music. This is an option on the JDM model, and I hope they bring it over here. Include a Flash Drive connection along with the HD. With this no longer will you have CDs stuffed in every nook and cranny.

I wouldn't pay a dime extra for this...so instead of having all my music on my iPod, I will have to waste time to copy it to the car, my wifes car, my friend's car, a stolen car, whatever. Just give me an iPod connection and a reasonable user interface to control it through the vehicle. A $12,000 Scion can do this, and a $25k "premium" WRX can't?

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Subaru has to keep their prices competitive. AWD is not free. It costs money to equip cars with that feature. So if they're spending money there, they have to cut some features in other areas to remain price-competitive.

I concur, a very valid point.

paisan · July 2007

Bob, I'm with you on almost every single item listed. Being a long time and many subaru owner, those items you listed are very very good to have.

A lot of those items could be sourced from Nissan which they already have a relation with so it should be fairly easy to get em.

Only addition which I've been calling for for years that my Trooper had on it's AWD system is a gauge which would tell you the % of torque split between front and rear (and I would think they could do left/right as well) this was a great feature I had on my Trooper and would be a great gadget they could use as a marketing tool to show people the symetric all wheel drive system. They could say "does your AWD system show the power to each axle? Didn't think so, because it's almost always FWD...."

-mike

paisan · July 2007

So what your saying is they should just have the Impreza 2.5 and the STI, since no economy buyer is going to drop 25k for a compact, and anyone who wants a turbo will get the STI?

No what I'm saying is there are 3 distinc trim levels here. Base which is the 2.5i, the WRX which gives you more power, more upgrades, etc. and the STi which gives you everything.

Similar to the 325 or 328, 330, and M3 which is 3 distinct trim levels with 3 different sets of parameters for them.

-mike

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Similar to the 325 or 328, 330, and M3 which is 3 distinct trim levels with 3 different sets of parameters for them.

That is a very different market with different buyers. I have to wait until the Impreza gets here to see how effectively they can market the different cars, but 8k is a big difference. The Civic (closer to Impreza market segment) is only about 6k from to bottom and that includes the SI (which has a limited slip :P sorry, had to throw that in there).

dino001 · July 2007

That is a very different market with different buyers

I think a market separation between 328 and 335 buyer is smaller in terms of wealth and vehicle expectations than between 2.5i and WRX.

335 to M3 is probably comparable to WRX to STI.

rsholland · July 2007

Don't own an iPod. Don't plan on buying one eitherand I'm a MAC guy...

Bob

dino001 · July 2007

Nobody is forcing you, Bob. Don't take it wrong way, but from what I remember you are not exactly a core demographics for Impreza and WRX, are you? And those who are, expect minimum aux input, or better iPod docking.

paisan · July 2007

That is a very different market with different buyers. I have to wait until the Impreza gets here to see how effectively they can market the different cars, but 8k is a big difference. The Civic (closer to Impreza market segment) is only about 6k from to bottom and that includes the SI (which has a limited slip sorry, had to throw that in there).

Civic demographic isn't what Subaru is going for. IMHO Civic is aimed at mid-early 20s and teens first new car first job, etc. The Impreza is being marketed to the 30 somethings who are on their 2nd or so car. Also comparing a FWD civic to the AWD impreza is not really a comparo. Same problem lies with comparing the Lancer to any Subaru, no AWD means it's in the same class as a FWD econobox IMO.

Si needs LSD to get any power down to the road due to FWD (couldn't pass that up

)

-mike

paisan · July 2007

You guys should have joined the subaru chat! We could have discussed live!

-mike

stevecebu · July 2007

OK - you got me lost here. Are we talking 2.5i - WRX jump, or WRX-STi? First you say "I don't want to buy WRX, cause it's too much", than you say "It's easy to upgrade WRX". Man - decide what you are talking about. Then you keep saying Evo this or Evo that, which makes absolutely no sense in context of WRX (STi - different story, but it has no bearing on WRX - none whatsoever).

What I have been saying specifically is that the difference between the base Impreza 2.5i and the WRX does not seem in my opinion to be worth $8K more, considering what you get for that $8K.
I hope that is clear enough.

Allright - we all have our opinions and it's OK to disagree and try to convince each other - that's what this forum is about. The problem is that in support of yours you throw anything short of saying Ferrari looks better and see how it handles and why Subaru isn't getting me that kind of car for 25 grand. That's where my attention really breaks.

I have no clue what you are talking about. when did I ever mention Ferrari in this Forum? :confuse:
If I was in the market for a $200K car then why the heck would I be looking at these kind of cars.
Also the point of the forums is to discuss things. My point and your points are different, that's ok but you seem very interested in convincing me of your opinion. You don't like my points but never admit they are valid and I'm hardly alone even on this forum. I'm not a Mitsu fan by any stretch.
But here you are mentioning Ferraris and I have no idea what you mean. The new Impreza is a bad style and it will show up later. That's just my opinion and from what i read elsewhere the opinion of many others.
I think the new Honda Accord looks miles better than the new WRX which looks like a Hyundai with a hood scoop.
Oh and yes you can buy one now, I posted a link and the sedans are on dealers lots now. I's probably the base Impreza but the look is virtually identical. They did say it was the WRX in that link tho, so I really don't know for sure.
Why don't you post to everyone else that disagrees with you about how tired you are of their opinions that are similar to mine, or is it personal?

stevecebu · July 2007

You think 2002 (the first WRX) was the "early days". You're kidding, right? Is that what you meant?

You act as tho that was the very first Subaru I ever bought which is not true, also you seem to be of a different mind than i am about this and I have said on many occasions let's just wait and see but then someone starts it up all over again. But to assume that I only had an early WRX when I've had 2 Justys, a BRAT and a base Impreza and a WRX hardly seems like I'm new to the party, just new to the Edmunds forums for chatting about it.
The car is out, on dealers lots so you guys can go out and test drive one and see how it drives.
The handful of people in this forum hardly make up the bulk of Subaru enthusiasts and sales will determine what the repeat customers will be as well as sales to new customers.
I'm not a Boy Racer, but I did like the old models pre 2008 and many people who bough the early WRX's were big fans of the car from WRC or video games.
Well they alienated those people with the new styling and they cheapened the car and I think when reviews come out for the new WRX it's going to show in those reviews.

stevecebu · July 2007

Here is the thing. If you are going to be driving in HPDE, Wheel to Wheel or Rally, then you are prepared to lose a $25K car, since insurance doesn't cover your car in a competition (even State Farm who used to cover specifically excludes it now) so essentially what we are doing is splitting hairs here.

Mike I really think you're a good guy, I may not agree with you but i do respect what you say.
If I wanted to wheel to wheel race other than a Rally car I'd just buy a Formula Ford or something designed specifically for the track.
I know you see a lot of track cars and have probably driven a lot of them. Dedicated race cars are much more fun IF you are just going to track them.

You guys are upset that the MID-LINE car doesn't come with the LSD. I don't see this as alienating buyers. This would be the equivalent of BMW drivers complaining that the 335i coupe doesn't have an LSD but the M3 does. Same exact scenario here, the manufacturer packages items in the various trim levels to suit what the majority (not all) the prospective buyers will want.

I think the point is that the 2007 model came with LSD and now they dropped it from the new model. So it was already in the midline model and now it's not. So it's not like we are talking about them adding it to something it didn't have before. They took it out and that upsets some of us and rightly so.
You don't have to track the car to want a LSD. I've had $500 crs way back that had Posi. The WRX costs $25K more than that and removed the LSD.
I just don't see where the extra $8K is going compared to the older models but no one is answering that from any of the guys who are talking about it.
Also I really have had enough of talking about it also. I said what I had to say and others did as well. I dropped it but then it gets brought up again so thus it continues.
I'm happy to not bring it up again as long as I don't have people bringing it up on me again and again.

Apparently BMW feels the same as Subaru cause the mid-trim 335i comes with traction control, but no LSD available. The M3 has the M-lock variable rear LSD on it. The M3 also gets lightened suspension components, very similar to the lightened suspension components present on the Spec B v. non spec B and STi v. non-STi versions of the car.

Yes but that is a RWD vehicle and of course a LSD would be nice but I don't expect to see it and it also never came with one the 335i never had a LSD as it' a new model. The M series also costs a lot of money and I hear the new M3 is a bit unbalanced due to the heavy nose. No idea about that but reviews have been saying that. I won't be buying an M3 even if I had the money.
Subaru just upped the ante for a performance vehicle from them and is mass marketing the rest of their lineup to a different consumer than before. Time will tell if a niche player can make that work or not.

No one is saying the Subaru is trying to knock Toyota or Honda off their pedestals, anyone who thought they were would not be very smart. However what Subaru is doing is attempting to take a small portion of the Honda/Toyota crowd over to their cars. Think of it this way, even if Subaru only takes a very small fraction of the H/T crowd it would be a BIG amount of sales increase for Subaru. H/T wouldn't even notice it but Subaru would feel it.

Mainstream is where the big boys play and to be honest the cars you can buy out there for $25K yes with rebates etc... are going to make it tough for Subaru.
The 2007 accord with leather is a very nice car indeed i sat in one last week. The same with the 2007 Camry and remember while my last Subaru was an early WRX it will take a LOT to steal customers away from Honda/Toyota and there are others who play in the $25K arena.
I am really curious to see how subaru does or will this be another tactic that fails. No one knows yet.
But for $25K subaru has to offer something the other cars don't and so far they offer AWD and that's about it.
because as is so often pointed out to me on this forum and I admit it's true. Most consumers know nothing about 4WD, RWD, FWD, AWD etc... The just know it's good in the snow.
Most can't drive a standard transmission, most want a very nice interior with great gas economy and legendary reliability and so far Subaru hasn't provided anything that stands out in terms that will make the buyers they are courting want to buy. Now if Subaru slaps a 10yr/100Kmile bumper to bumper warranty on their cars and doesn't weasel out of it like Mitsu always tried to do with their 6/50 warranty then they'd sell a ton of new cars. They'd sell probably every one they could make.
Of course they can't afford to do something like that but they also don't have what the other cars they want to compete with do.
They might get people who are tired of Honda and Toyota and maybe that will make them happy due to increased sales but they also need to retain customers and that s what Honda and Toyota do that Subaru does not. They are always chasing a new customer instead of retaining the ones they have and slowly making a name for themselves as the best niche car maker.

dino001 · July 2007

have no clue what you are talking about. when did I ever mention Ferrari in this Forum?

Hint: It was a hyperbola (in other words - exaggeration used for illustration). Plus, I wrote "everything short of..." in front that, which means (I think - English is not my native tongue

) that you came close to complaining about Subaru not being like Ferrari (again - I was exaggerating to make a point), but you did not specifically mentioned Ferrari, of course.

Got it?

rsholland · July 2007

What makes you think that the "core demographic" wouldn't appreciate having a 40 GB hard drive to store their music?

Besides, this is "my" wish list. Your mileage may vary...

Speaking of which, here are a few more:

 Auto-up power windows
This is a no-brainer for the driver's window. It would also be great for the other windows too. Subaru has always stated safety concerns for not offering them, so who knows...

 Auto-open moonroof
Again, another no-brainer.

 delayed power for accessories
Again, another no-brainer.

Bob

dino001 · July 2007

I meant - that iPod thing - you said you don't have one and don't want one. I meant most of their hopeful customers are on exact opposite spectrum and would appreciate (read demand) iPod connectivity standard.

Could you print your entire list, Bob, and make it a letter to Subaru? I would like to sign it on the dotted line

rsholland · July 2007

I believe iPod connectivity is standard on '08 WRX models. My reason for preferring a built-in HD is that you don't have to have your iPod resting in a cupholder or on your lap. I suppose you could stick it in you glove box, or some other storage area, but most folks won't do that.

To be clear here: I don't dislike iPods. Not at all. I think they're pretty cool. I'm just not that much of a music buff to want one.

SOA folks monitor these boards, so I suspect (hope!) they will pass on my suggestions.

Bob

dino001 · July 2007

I believe iPod connectivity is standard on '08 WRX models.

Don't think so. Part of "premium-schmemium" package is aux input, which is even less than aux input. So the car may be prewired, but it definitely does not std iPod connection (special proprietary docking allowing talking to each other). While iPod-specific docking would be nice, but it may be part of some accessory package, omitting simple aux input in 25-grand base WRX is ridiculous.

Car dubbed "WRX" is really a counterpart of old "TR", whereas "Premium" is old "WRX". It was a hidden price raise, if you think about it. Saying that they managed to keep it under 25 grand is a little stretch IMHO. However, when compared to what was offered 5 years ago for 25K, it's still not bad, if you factor inflation and material cost. The only problem is competition - in 2002 they simply could have priced it a couple of thousands more and would have ended with similar sales. Today it's not the case - the pressures from below (Speed3, SRT-4) and above (A3) are quite substantial.

Overall, unlike Steve and LilEngr, I think WRX is still pretty good buy, but I'll wait for incentives before I even consider switching. I'm not the one who has to be first on the block - quite to contrary - I like them to iron little wrinkles before I jump on something.

The "Premium" at invoice with a grand cashback (or real discount on financing - not just 5.9%) would be pretty good buy, even if the name is silly, grill hideous and tail lights not suiting my age and temper.

Conversely - if they keep price but add some equipment listed by Bob, it would also come better, even without the incentives.

rsholland · July 2007

Don't think so. Part of "premium-schmemium" package is aux input, which is even less than aux input. So the car may be prewired, but it definitely does not std iPod connection (special proprietary docking allowing talking to each other). While iPod-specific docking would be nice, but it may be part of some accessory package, omitting simple aux input in 25-grand base WRX is ridiculous.

Obviously I wasn't paying that close attention. If I were an iPod aficionado, I probably would have noticed that.

Bob

rsholland · July 2007

There are some pics up at nabisco of new Imprezas already at a dealer in Calgary and other Canadian dealers.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2007

I didn't assume anything at all. I was asking you, hence all the question marks. I made that very clear.

I didn't know you had an early WRX, I didn't know you have a BRAT, I didn't know anything, nor did I imply that I did. All I know is that you've been making a big deal about them dropping the rear viscous limited-slip differential.

Heck, it wasn't even a Torsen, but that's another post.

Your comment just surprised me, caught me off guard.

You're talking about old school Subies to support your desire for a limited-slip differential, well back then it was 4WD, not AWD, and no limited slips at all. Plus Subaru's origins weren't with performance cars.

If we go back that far, they were simple, reliable, all-weather cars. Low cost 4WD, basically. I just don't see how talking about their roots relates to autocrossers and people that take high-performance cars to the track. That is a far cry from the core, old school Subaru client.

There just aren't big enough numbers of WRC fans in the US, so what works in Europe won't necessarily work here. Plus, Subaru has been getting clobbered in WRC, their last constructors championship was a decade ago.

Styling is subjective, but I disagree about them having cheapened the car. The interior especially looks far nicer. I had a Forester and may get another, and the nicer interior is by far the thing I'm most looking forward to.

ateixeira · July 2007

Let's take a step back, and check out an older Subaru ad, just for kicks.

A couple of things of note:

* they actually promote FWD
* they see themselves as pioneers
* they talk about snow belt states
* they mention gas mileage

And of course the famous "inexpensive and built to stay that way" tag line.

Nothing at all in that typical heritage ad mentions autocross, racing, features for the track, etc. Far from it. They target practical people that just want to get around in any weather, and affordably.

The WRX was a major shift for them, away from their core customer, an attempt to attract younger people outside of the snow belt using AWD as a performance selling point.

I think for the 2008 model, not adding power, keeping the prices flat, adding VDC for safety and to manage traction on both axles, all that is consistent with their old school heritage.

Sure, it might alienate a few autocrossers who bought 2002 WRXs the day they came out, but I don't see them moving away from the old school Subrau customer at all.

sunilb · July 2007

Are there any published reviews of the '08s?
Edmunds only had based on the 2.0 engine, so I'm curious how the US version is going to be (especially now that they are hitting dealerships).

lilengineerboy · July 2007

What makes you think that the "core demographic" wouldn't appreciate having a 40 GB hard drive to store their music?

Because the core demographic already has an iPod, and most don't want to re-upload their music in 16 different places.

You were right about the iPod being in the glove box. Thats where it should be, fitted to a cradle like BMW/Volvo/Toyota/VW. It should be charging while its connected, and the user interface should be through the car's stereo.

Ripping CDs to an HD is a time consuming pain, IMHO.

rsholland · July 2007

There's a news embargo until August 1. Expect plenty of news to appear on that date.

As to hitting dealers... It's Canada, not the US.

Bob

2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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