2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

aaykay · July 2007

One question that raised quite a bit of ruckus here in the past, was over the WRX brakes. Based on your observation, are these the GT's larger front brake discs (with the 2-piston calipers) or are these the slightly smaller brake discs from the 2002+ WRX ?

Thanks.

stevecebu · July 2007

You seem to think your opinion is of more value than others here simply because you're putting money where your mouth isas you've told us a bunch of times.
I can't think of anything more arrogant!

Really Bob, well you should look back at what you said previously about Subaru wanting to sell more cars then. After all you and others have pointed out more than a few times Subaru is in the business to make money.
my point was and is that in 6 months i will HAVE to buy a car. You have a 2006 and are not looking to buy one. So in 1,2 or 3 years or whenever it is you will buy a car then. This car is out now. You won't be buying it so it's not arrogant for me as a buyer to like or not like a car that I will actually be paying money for.
Hardly arrogance. But you and a few others really want to argue with me. I am done discussing this with you as I have pointed out in the past that you have some valid points and yet not once had you acknowledged that I have any valid points yet the reviews from various magazines,tend to lean more towards what I was saying.
Arrogance is bragging that Subaru listens to you. They don't listen to me, that's ok, I can decide whether or not to buy their car after I drive one.
You have totally missed every point I have ever made.
And since i'm sure nothing will make you happier that us not conversing any more then just don't reply and I won't reply to you any more either.

stevecebu · July 2007

I might also add that steve keeps comparing the WRX to an Accord and a Camry, of which there is zero in common in terms of anything other than price.

Sorry Mike but I really want you to understand my point which it seems no one does and that is that cars cost money which is a a quantifiable thing. The new WRX is going to cost at least $25K or more if you get any option packages.
There are a lot of cars available for that kind of money that are mainstream cars. It has been stated over and over and over by you guys and damn near everyone else that Subaru wants to be more mainstream. I don't think anyone disagrees with that since Subaru said it themselves so it's not a debatable point.
I'm sorry you don't like my 2 choices for mainstream cars. I can pick some others but I picked the 2 best selling cars in that price range.
I NEVER said the Accord drives better or is faster nor did i say that about the Camry. You guys are indicating that i did. Driving a Camry is like driving a toaster or a microwave oven. But I defy you to prove in anyway that it is not a mainstream car. It and the Accord are THE mainstream cars. Pick some other brand if you want but it won't matter. People do factor in price when they buy a car. I am simply pointing out much to the obvious disdain of Subaru fans that when you spend $25K+ on a car you sure want a god deal for your money and Subaru is courting the mainstream buyer now or rather trying to.
Subaru offers AWD and that's about it. Not everyone is an enthusiast as you have pointed out. But those people still buy cars and will they really care that much about AWD or anything else just being average car buyers? I don't think they will. I think they won't care much about the "Driving experience" I think comfort and other issues will come into play during the purchasing decision.
I guess I'm the only person who sees that tho.
So consider me out of this conversation. I will probably follow it from time to time but obviously people would rather hear what they want to hear and at least a few have made it clear that I and my opinions are no longer welcome in this particular forum. So enjoy your cars whichever ones you guys buy and i'll do the same.

subytrojan · July 2007

Hi aaykay.

Ah yes, the new car's brakes...

Pedal feel is average, but the brakes grab well once the driver is really stomping on the brake pedal. However, braking ability is still limited by the *wonderful* all-season Bridgestone Potenza RE92A tires (just as the previous years' cars' braking ability were hampered by tire grip).

It has been confirmed on NASIOC that the front brake disc part numbers on the 2008 WRX match the front brake disc P/Ns of the Subaru Outback 2.5 XT. The calipers themselves I'm guessing are from the Subaru Legacy/Outback or 2002-2005 WRX.

I hope this helps clear things up.

God bless,
Loren

dino001 · July 2007

Yeah - why is that they're insisting on that junk (I mean those tires that nobody other than Subaru seems to like). I could think of probably 5 or 10 different ones that are similarly prices and superior in nearly every aspect, from grip to wear, to ride quality.

rsholland · July 2007

No one here has missed any of the points you've been making, as you've pounded them into our heads so many times I can't even begin to count.

What you fail to understand is that some of us may not agree with you. That's the difference. You take pot shots at me and others who welcome the new-found comfort and refinement of the WRX, saying that we should go by Camrys instead. Or because we're not in the market at the moment, and you are, that your opinion is more important than ours. So, yeah, I'm upsetand have every right to be.

You constantly complain that Subaru doesn't listen to you. Can you blame them them? You've got a lot to learn in terms of people skills. There are ways of making pointsand convincing others to seeing it your way. I'm clearly not the only one here who feels this way, as you've alienated just about everyone here with your in-the-face and confrontational negativism.

As you've stated beforeover and over and overthe WRX, and the direction Subaru is going with this car in terms of market position and audience, is not for you. You've even stated it's at the bottom of cars you are considering. So come to grips with it and move on to something you like better.

Bob

subytrojan · July 2007

5 or 10?

At The Tire Rack, there are *only* 17 better high performance all-season tires.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=HPAS&width=20- - 5%2F&ratio=50&diameter=17&tireSearch=true

Kirstie_H · July 2007

If you've already decided you don't like and will not buy the '08 WRX, and have already stated that opinion, then a discussion about that particular vehicle is probably not for you.

Negative comments about the vehicle are fine, but let's not beat a point into the ground.

ateixeira · July 2007

Overall, the stock 2008 WRX is better than a stock 2002-2007 WRX.

Thanks and yes I read your entire review.

Apparently I'm the only one that did, because some people here still didn't get the point you made above, and I've highlighted again.

Certain people here would do themselves a huge favor if they read your full review and then went to test drive a Camry. I'm fairly certain they feel nothing at all alike.

aaykay · July 2007

It has been confirmed on NASIOC that the front brake disc part numbers on the 2008 WRX match the front brake disc P/Ns of the Subaru Outback 2.5 XT.

Thanks for the clarification. That certainly clears things up ! The OB 2.5XT has smaller discs than the GT and matches with what I stated when I observed the car during the NY Auto Show. Basically the 07 REX has 11.5/11.3 front/rear and the OB XT has 11.5/10.6 front/rear brake discs.

The brake discs on the WRX NY show car were clearly smaller than the Legacy 3.0R parked next to it but some of the folks here (I believe Paisan) kept on insisting that the discs on the new REX are the GT's larger discs.

Either way, since I am waiting for the 09 STI to get here, I am not impacted !

dino001 · July 2007

I got the point and I could see its reasoning. In my opinion, much more relevant question is it better enough to warrant its "legend reborn" spin (definitely not) and more importantly to fend off new found competition in a segment of what I may call fast and/or premium compact car. Compared to introduction in 2002, the world changed considerably. There is stiffening competitive pressure from below (Speed3, new SRT-4) and above (A3) and at level GTI/GLI). Those cars are getting visibly better at what they are trying to offer. All of these vehicles have something strong going for them, from price to eqipment (both lux and hardware), to plain number horsepower, to styling, to handling. What does Subaru do? They CHEAPEN their AWD offering compared to its predecessors soften the suspension and make it look like Sebring from the front. They want to shed the "boy-racer" crowd and I think they will be successfull.

How are they trying to compensate? Here is when the whole Camry comes in picture. - and it is not so irrelevant, as one may imagine. Hear me on this: WRX goes mainstream - i.e. trying to attract crowd sensitive to "fluff factor". Those people would touch old WRX because its high because road noise, not so nice interior, boy-racer image, but still want strong horsepower (number is very important to them) and price below 30K. Q: What do these people buy today? A: Six cylinder versions of Camry, Accord or Altima.

So lets assume the "racer people" (hardcore, weekend and wanna-be's) are gone (bye Steve

). Has Subaru done enough with WRX to attract "V6 midsize FWD for 25-30K people"?. Answer: I don't think so. They're trying to eat the cake and still have it.

subytrojan · July 2007

aaykay, are you akoshy on NASIOC?

If so, the brake information I was referring to I obtained from the "2008 Impreza: Official Pics and Info" thread stickied as the top thread in the News & Rumors section.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1237429

Someone with the latest electronics part catalog accessed looked up and supplied us with the front brake rotor info.

ateixeira · July 2007

Meh, to me, "Legend Reborn" is pure marketing nonsense. I'm sure Kia's marketing would have you believe they make the best cars in the world, too. So what? It's meaningless.

Get TiVO. Honestly. Stop watching commercials, and you just won't care any more. I don't.

We agree that the competition is much stiffer than it was in 2002.

We disagree about the "cheapening" of the WRX. Adding refinement does not make it cheaper, in terms of feel or otherwise.

In fact, I think the exact opposite is true. The 2002 had knock-out performance, arguably better vs. its lesser competition back then.

But...it felt cheap! The interior had to make all sorts of apologies. It was cheaper back then, not now. People were turned off by:

* hard plastics
* non-lined storage bins everywhere
* thin carpets
* thin paint that chipped easily
* thin and easy to dent sheetmetal
* Neon headlights, far worse than any Sebring
* missing content from JDM US models (STI had no stereo!)
* lack of door frames, glass that rattled
* cramped rear seating
* no moonroof, no heated seats, no leather, no nothing

The 2002 was all about cheap speed, and yes it felt cheap.

So here's my question, where were you in 2002? Perhaps it is pure nostalgia but the memory of more than a few people in this thread is failing them.

The 2008 model looks far more refined. The interior will not turn off people not willing to make an all-out sacrifice just for speed. It's no longer cheap speed, but just speed, I suppose.

I also disagree about the "soften the suspension" comment, did you drive one yet? The outgoing one was too softly sprung, and needed springs and sway bar upgrades, plus tires, out of the box.

How has that changed? The 2008 is not softer than the 2007, how would you even know if you haven't driven one, and those that have say it's better and the equipment tells us it slaloms a LOT faster now?

The 2008 interior (especially) looks 100 times better. It no longer looks out of place in its price class. Design is much better, you can now get NAV, the door frames will make the glass stop rattling when you slam the door, and there is actually room for legs in the rear seat. It's much less "cheap" now.

And no, it's not going after the Camry buyer, who is 15 years older and has 2.3 kids and a dog. That person isn't even aware of the drive wheels, doesn't take on-ramps at twice the posted speed, and doesn't know Petter Solberg from Peter Cottontail.

WRX buyers will be the guys just out of college, single or married with no kids yet. They like cars but don't necessarily make a hobby out of it, they just enjoy driving. They would also not be caught dead in a mainstream family sedan.

dino001 · July 2007

Oh - you misunderstood. I just said AWD was cheapened (LSD), not the car itself.

Regarding springs - I drove '07 was while engine was way better than my '03, I was not impressed by its suspension/steering feedback - at all. Now reports say '08 is even softer. Yes - I put it from others, not my own experience. When it comes, I'll drive it, but "I can't wait" factors is kind of gone by now.

And no, it's not going after the Camry buyer, who is 15 years older and has 2.3 kids and a dog.

That person buys 4-cylinder sedan, sometimes 6.

WRX buyers will be the guys just out of college, single or married with no kids yet.

How many of those buy now Solara, Accord Coupe, and will buy Altima Coupe - all 6-cylinders (and minority will buy sedan). I bet quite a few. They buy them for looks, features, horsepower and price below 30 grand - and yes, Subaru wants them with their new WRX.

* no moonroof, no heated seats, no leather, no nothing

Still no moonroof, no leather. So just heated seats - some Premium Pkg., indeed.

ateixeira · July 2007

OK, gotcha now. You almost gave me a heart attack there. I need to switch to decaf.

I doubt a limited-slip diff costs more than an open diff in its place plus VDC.

If it did, the WRX would have gotten VDC back in 2002. Subaru launched the Outback VDC in 2001, I believe.

I'm sure VDC+open diff cost more and they waited until they felt enough pressure from the market to choose safety over cost. They de-cheapened it and made it safer.

As for suspension, WRXs have always had lots of travel. Almost as if they were tuned for rally cross, not auto cross. A bit more clearance than competitors, too, perhaps because they expect more of their buyers to be in the snow belt.

I still don't agree about what buyers the WRX is chasing. The sedan will compete a bit with the Civic Si, maybe Sentra Spec V, I guess. I don't see it competing with Accords or Camrys.

The hatch? GTI and Mazda3 (including Speed3). Not A3, though, have you priced those with Quattro? You could get a Tribeca Limited for that kinda money.

Subaru still has AWD against those. FWD will turn off a lot of shoppers looking for performance. And fewer people will be turned off by the WRX's new interior.

I see it attracting the same people as before, and sealing the deal with a few more of those people.

dino001 · July 2007

I still don't agree about what buyers the WRX is chasing. The sedan will compete a bit with the Civic Si, maybe Sentra Spec V, I guess. I don't see it competing with Accords or Camrys.

The hatch? GTI and Mazda3 (including Speed3). Not A3, though, have you priced those with Quattro?

I guess we have to agree to disagree. Si, Sentra - wrong price segment - I see very few shelling extra 5+ grand to get WRX.

Speed3 is closer but still cheaper, even when factoring AWD as 1K - and I suspect it's the strongest competitor, as it offers more power, great looks and features and it reportedly handles better on streets than current WRX.

A3 - obviously I did not mean to imply they'd go after those who buy V6 AWD. I read somewhere 2.0T AWD's so considering current FWD starts 25.5K and AWD will cost 1 grand or so, it's close enough. Even w/o AWD you get better styling and (probably still) interior, badge, moonroof. For "premium oriented" people it is an equitable exchange for power and AWD, even if the total cost comes a little higher.

Finally - I'm not saying new WRX is competing w/ Accord or Camry. However, being in the same price segment as those coupe V6 versions their buyers are natural base for expansion and that's what I think Subaru is trying to tap with their "natural" base being more competitive than ever.

ateixeira · July 2007

I don't think street prices will be $5k apart, probably closer to $2-3k street prices. Isn't the Civic getting list prices?

AWD usually costs about $1750, so you're way low on the value of that.

Unless they changed things recently, the A3 only came with Quattro on the V6 model, priced in the mid $30s. Another price league, basically.

The VW R32 will have AWD and would compete with the WRX, and now the Subie actually has an interior that won't embarass itself in that company.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

WRX buyers will be the guys just out of college, single or married with no kids yet.

How many of those buy now Solara, Accord Coupe, and will buy Altima Coupe - all 6-cylinders (and minority will buy sedan). I bet quite a few. They buy them for looks, features, horsepower and price below 30 grand - and yes, Subaru wants them with their new WRX.

No guys buy Solaras :P

Also it looks like the R32 is only an automatic, so I don't think that is the same market (kind of the opposite of the Civic SI and MS6 market).

dino001 · July 2007

I just disagree with your entire premise that cars are in direct competition if they have the same drive system. It's more important what goes in minds of people buying them and what options they consider. So there is very easy to imagine somebody cross-shopping A3 2.0T w/ FWD for say 28K with WRX for the same price and weighing what they get. Not everybody is a racer and "has to have" AWD. So if the price, size, utitlity and performance are within reasonable match, the vehicles become competitors, even if unintended or not exactly in the same segment as designated by magazine people.

dino001 · July 2007

Also it looks like the R32 is only an automatic,

:surprise: :surprise: :sick: :sick:

ateixeira · July 2007

A3, though? We're talking about a FWD hatch from a luxury manufacturer. A premium hatch, an oxymoron in the USA.

They sell in such tiny numbers as to be almost insignificant in the overall market. If they dropped it noone would notice (VW would just sell more GTIs).

R32 is DSG, true, forgot about that.

WRX is unique in offering AWD plus a true manual trans at this price level.

So I guess it *has* to be cross shopped with cars with different powertrains. LOL

Still, Camry? Accord? I just don't see it.

Put it this way - if you end up buying one of those, you weren't truly serious about buying a performance car. thinking about it, maybe, but not seriously.

People may want a hot hatch, bang for the buck, or practical performance. All these paths would still lead you to a WRX on your short list.

dino001 · July 2007

I think here is where our communication breaks - WRX is not a performance car, IMHO (STI is). It is fast, but it's not really performance. So, as such it is legitimate to cross-shop it with more "mushy" cars, as long as their price and basic performance figures match - and there are a few.

ateixeira · July 2007

I see it as a sliding scale.

To me, the WRX is closer to the STI than it is to the Camry. Especially if you tune it (springs, sways, tires, maybe a chip).

My litmus test it simple - would it be as fun as my Miata? The WRX is quicker and I could use it all seasons. It would pass that test.

Camry would fail. If I won a free Camry in a contest, I would give it to my wife. Yes, I would still drive a 14 year old Miata and give my wife the brand new car I got for free.

Toyota makes great cars - I own a Sienna! Don't get me wrong. Wonderful vehicles for passengers to be in comfort. Spacious, quiet, we love our van.

I just don't want to drive it when I don't need to, it's just no fun at all.

dino001 · July 2007

Well I know it's semantics, but fun yes, performance - not really. WRX makes a relatively short leap to STI in certain aspects, but pricewise, extra 5-8 grand is whole lot of mullah (assuming new STI will a little short of 35K on the sticker).

And Camry is probably worst example. It was probably mentioned as one of those extreme figurative speach points rather than real. However, new Altima Coupe or Accord are more relevant

ateixeira · July 2007

I can actually see the Altima coupe being comparable. Nissan made the new one shorter, lighter, and on a shorter wheelbase than the sedan.

Is Nissan offering a manual on that one, or is it CVT only?

The Accord just seems so....big. Bigger than a Legacy, even. It only has price in common with the WRX.

saedave · July 2007

This discussion is missing another possible purchaser: The buyer who was buying a Legacy GT wagon. The interior size is about the same as is the powertrain and the price is right. Dropping the GT wagon may not matter with the same car available with a slanted rear hatch. If the turbo lag is less than on the older GT, so much the better.

dino001 · July 2007

True - perhaps TSX, which could be had for below 30K and is also aimed at younger people is more. Of course, it's different too, but again I see it as a "trade-off" game within similar price. Making WRX larger inside and more civilized (and more expensive) brings it much closer to TSX than before. Faster, but no leather. Smaller, but faster. Etc.

dino001 · July 2007

That's me, exactly. Lack of sunroof and leather is actually a big turnoff for me. Regarding size, I have to see it to believe that smaller outside will still get me similar inside.

ateixeira · July 2007

Yeah, TSX is closer than the Accord, though actually the TSX is almost exactly the same size as the Legacy, and both are sedan only.

I guess the new WRX is close in size to this Legacy, and the next Legacy will likely grow, so we probably will see some cross shopping.

It's funny, when the 2002 came out, there was a guy shopping a WRX vs. an Isuzu Vehicross. Seriously.

I guess seeing Accord, Camry should not surprise me.

rsholland · July 2007

I sort of seeing the new WRX as going after the original Legacy GT customer. I'm talking about the GT w/o leather, moonroof, which Subaru dropped a few years if you recall.

Also, I think Subaru should have called it the S-GT, and not the WRX, like they do in Japan. The reason being the "WRX" label carries certain "expectations" that no longer are true for this model and its new role within the Subaru lineup. I'm convinced that is part of all the negative hoopla we see here and elsewhere.

I also hope they offer an STI-lite, which falls in between the new WRX and the full-bore STI, that will address all those wanting a WRX, but are disappointed with this model. Keep the STI wide body flares and taut suspension. Give it 225/45x17 tires and the Legacy GT power rating.

Bob

aaykay · July 2007

Yup, it is me in Nasioc. I even mistakenly started a thread on this, before it was locked.

aaykay · July 2007

Also, I think Subaru should have called it the S-GT, and not the WRX, like they do in Japan. The reason being the "WRX" label carries certain "expectations" that no longer are true for this model and its new role within the Subaru lineup.

I completely agree. I would have been perfectly okay with S-GT, considering the expectations one has from a WRX. This car seems to be attempting to snag a different clientele.

aaykay · July 2007

I'm sure VDC+open diff cost more and they waited until they felt enough pressure from the market to choose safety over cost. They de-cheapened it and made it safer.

I got to call you out on this one. Yes, they switched the LSD for a VDC. But to state that the VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX and software/firmware (fundamentally intended to brake individual wheels when speed differences are sensed or cut engine power when needed), "costs more" than an actual piece of equipment like an LSD, is simply stretching your already colorful imagination to the next level.

Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX.

Also, the Legacy GT Spec-B, comes with a VDC but HAS NOT excluded the LSD in the rear, like the WRX did.

So when somebody says Subaru did some serious elimination of equipment to be within a cost threshold (including eliminating the 4-pot/2-pot brakes from the prior generation and going back to small rotors and 2-pot/1-pot from several years ago), they would not be far off the mark.

But the point that a VDC type of situation is "safer" for bad drivers is dead true. Plus the fact that $10K Kias and $9K Chevy Aveos will now come with VDC, due to governmental mandates, makes this an option that Subaru has to provide. The interior has been re-engineered and that is a biggie for sure but has this new version gone far enough for a full re-design of the REX ? I doubt it.

jeffmc · July 2007

"Just to put this in perspective, the $16K Impreza 2.5i comes with this "costly" feature that is also present in the LSD-less WRX."

Joe Spitz's site (http://www.cars101.com/subaru/impreza/wrxsti2008.html#prices) and that pricing chart on NASIOC both say that the $16-$17k base Imprezas do NOT come with VDC. I was expecting it to be standard throughout the lineup, but apparently it starts with the more expensive "Premium" trims. :confuse:

p.s. Anyone interested in seeing the invoice prices for the new Impreza... they can be found at the link above. Not much spread between invoice and MSRP, means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.

dino001 · July 2007

means to me Subaru's really gonna push hard to have fewer incentives.

Good luck with that. Interest rates are to stay for looong time - however, the current table is not as generous esp. for 48 and 60 month deals. Cash back may be curbed for some models, but that will depend on how well they sell.

I also suspect that those prices already include a $500-750 cushion "just in case" it's needed quickly (if not - better for them). In today's market consumers are conditioned not to even consider "regular" cars without some kind of incentive, so a smart manufacturer would already include it in their list price.

aaykay · July 2007

That's true about the $17K version of the 2.5i. But the $18K version of the 2.5i with a boat load of other features, has the VDC packaged within it. For around a 1000 bucks, you are getting a number of features, including the 6-CD changer, the All weather package (heated outside mirrors, dual setting heated seats, windshield wiper deicer), the Aero package etc and has VDC put on top of it....this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer, as opposed to equipment like the LSD.

I think a feature like the VDC should have been across the board, since it costs very little additional money, due to the sensors involved in making it work, being already present in all the Imprezas.

Maybe they want to keep the $17K version as a loss leader (with very few actually made) and then push the people onto the higher trim that costs a grand more but come with a whole lot more value. Taking a leaf from the way Lexus promotes a low-priced ES350, with even the leather as optional....while the fact of the matter is, not a single ES350 imported into the US, comes without leather.

saedave · July 2007

Note omission of the semi closed deck block! Could this be correct? (turbo and normally aspirated blocks the same???) :sick:

ateixeira · July 2007

I got to call you out on this one....VDC, which is driven through sensors that are ALREADY present in a car like a WRX

Not at all. That is so wrong it's not even funny.

VDC takes as inputs:

* steering angle sensor (new)
* yaw velocity sensor (also new)
* lateral acceleration sensor (yep, new as well)
* 4 wheel speed sensors (OK, from the ABS, not new)
* brake pressure sensor (new)

4 out of 5 of the inputs to the VDC system require new sensors! You are 80% wrong! :P

this essentially demonstrates how much a feature like the VDC costs the manufacturer

I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.

For around a 1000 bucks

$1500, actually.

:shades:

aaykay · July 2007

I disagree. Prices are not based on production costs, they are based on what the market will bear. The package is a bargain, but the bean counters can count on things like economies of scale to get their costs down.

This is getting funnier by the minute. So prices don't use production costs as a basis ? :sick:

Prices are certainly based on what the production costs are....I work for a Fortune 50 firm, who is into quite a bit of manufacturing, worldwide.

Companies then apply a certain margin over their costs. What the margin is, is dependent on what the market will bear.

Also, when you started tallying sensors, your "4-wheel speed sensors" was neat....there are 4 separate sensors there, which you clubbed into one. :P Also, do you really think that the Steering angle sensor is missing in the WRX ? :confuse: What then is the variable boost response based on ? Either way, VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i to $10K Kias...good for the public (specifically the ones who are still learning to drive and need a sudden throttling back of engine power and wheel braking to bring them back in line !) but bad when they quietly drop the LSD that the prior version came in, and as an alternative, provide this "expensive" option. :P

Either way, I am waiting for the STI, which I am told was designed by a team different from the one which designed the WRX. Thank goodness !

ateixeira · July 2007

$1500 per unit easily covers their production costs for the options.

MSRP is set according to what the market will tolerate, though, often with profit margins that are mind-boggling.

This is why the aftermarket can supply a 7" DVD Navigation system for $999 while manufacturers charge $2000-2200, often for outdated, generation-old stuff. I'll take a guess that production costs are in the $400-500 range.

4 wheel speed sensors were grouped together in my source PDF from FHI, which I cut/pasted from.

You're hiding behind that detail, but the fact is you were very, very wrong. Admit it. No amount of emotorcons will hide that. :P

All along you've been screaming that VDC was just a matter of flicking a switch to turn it on. That's not true at all. I proved it.

You were wrong. Time to own up!

Steering angle sensos is indeed missing in the current WRX. Of course it is. The steering is a mechanical linkage. Without VDC there's no need to know the intended steering path of the driver, because the car has no mechanism to attempt to correct deviations from the driver's intentions.

Why would a car without VDC need a steering angle sensor? Think about it. It couldn't do anything with that information even if it did collect it. We don't steer-by-wire.

Variable boost is based on engine speeds.

VDC is a feature that is now becoming available in the $17K 2.5i

Reading is comprehension. The 2.5i does not have VDC.

The Premium model, which does have VDC, doesn't cost $17k.

You find my comments "funnier by the minute".

You just got schooled in VDC. You may be too proud to admit it, but everyone here can read your posts, and mine, and come to their own conclusions.

paisan · July 2007

How are they trying to compensate? Here is when the whole Camry comes in picture. - and it is not so irrelevant, as one may imagine. Hear me on this: WRX goes mainstream - i.e. trying to attract crowd sensitive to "fluff factor". Those people would touch old WRX because its high because road noise, not so nice interior, boy-racer image, but still want strong horsepower (number is very important to them) and price below 30K. Q: What do these people buy today? A: Six cylinder versions of Camry, Accord or Altima.

I don't see the Accord/Altima/Camry as a competitor on a few levels:

Size- The Accord/Altima/Camary is LARGER than the Legacy which is larger than the Impreza

AWD- None of those have AWD available

Handling/"Feel"- None of those except maybe the Altima have an ounce of driving feel, this is completely subjective so feel free to disregard this factor.

As for the "lessening of the AWD System" I don't buy that, to the NORMAL USER OF THE CAR and for the use of the car ON-ROAD, meaning on legal roads here in the US, the VDC will provide a significantly better AWD system than a Non-VDC car with AWD. If you bring up the Track/HPDE/Race, that's not relevent due to the fact that those are not on-road situations, situations where none of the usual things apply, especially your warranty....

-mike

aaykay · July 2007

Juice, not to keep on beating on a dead horse, but the VDC is an el-cheapo addition, when a piece of real equipment that would have costed Subaru a significant amount of money, like the rear LSD, was deleted.

Since it is el-cheapo, Subaru could literally offer the feature across the line. Maybe not offer it in the $17K 2.5i (which being a stripped loss-leader - it does not even come with 4-wheel discs or alloys - would not make them any money as it stands, let alone with/without VDC, and dropping VDC and other features may be to prod buyers to spend the additional $1K for the way better equipped model upstream) but the $18K 2.5i premium (which comes with a boat load of additional features to justify this $1K increase, with the VDC just thrown in as a "marketing sweetener"). For people who have not learned to drive well and are prone to commiting blunders on the road, the VDC may be a true boon but in no way shape or form, is this a performance feature, like an LSD - which a badge like the "WRX" deserves.

Let us leave it at that and not allow our Subaru blinkers to continue to blind us. We let such a gaffe through and reward mediocrity in an iconic product like the WRX, and they will continue to delete even more stuff as time goes on; but put them on the mat now and they will think twice about doing such things in the future. Let us not continue to lipstick this hog.

dino001 · July 2007

It all depends if it sells. If Juice's prophecies of big sellouts materialize, it won't matter what you and I think, but if for some reason people shy away from the reborn legend that would be a sufficient signal for them. Lets just hope they survive until they get it right, which will probably be around 2010-2011 MY.

paisan · July 2007

Juice, not to keep on beating on a dead horse, but the VDC is an el-cheapo addition, when a piece of real equipment that would have costed Subaru a significant amount of money, like the rear LSD, was deleted.

It's not el-cheapo. On top of it, tell AMG that TCS is "cheapo". That's what they use in the AMGs, no LSDs in those machines, which are the "performance" versions of their cars.... Of course they don't have MTs either for that matter.

-mike

aaykay · July 2007

In case of the AMG products, it is the overall package that makes it what it is. A single feature among a hundred other attributes, does not define an AMG product.

You quoted the Type-R a little while back. The key differentiator of the Type-R from its near identical twin, the GSR, is the LSD that comes with it, which is denied to the GSR. It is what enables the Type-R to be a corner carver, in addition to its highly tuned suspension, lightened body and 195HP hand-finished engine, while its 170hp brother, the GSR, with near identical engine and suspension, is considered as a good handling product but definitely not a standout in the market.

I guess the 08 REX is what it is. Making a lot of noise is not going to change its feature set for this model year. People who like it, will buy it. Hopefully Subaru will take notice and rectify its shortcomings in the following model year. But in my estimation, they completely blew the new product launch momentum, due to its underwhelming nature....lost opportunity !

paisan · July 2007

On the Type R, thanks for proving my point...

The Type R was the top model, just like the STi.

If you wanted to get the absolute best you had to step up and pony up the $$$.

Subaru has taken this playbook from BMW, Acura, and just about every other car manufacturer out there. Which is that if you want all the bells and whistles, then you have to get the top trim.

Why aren't you guys screaming that the non-evo versions of the lancer don't have AWD? That's a BIGGIE, as opposed to the LSD issue!

-mike

ateixeira · July 2007

How do you know all the sensors I listed are "el-cheapo"? You don't know that. Prove it. I bet you're wrong. You've been wrong about many other things recently (again in your most recent post, the cost difference is $1500 not $1000).

The rear differential Subaru uses has the same case whether it's limited slip or not. These aren't fancy lockers or Torsens, just your run of the mill viscous limited slips. Nothing fancy. From the outside you can't even tell an open and a limited-slip apart on a Subie. Did you know that?

You keep saying it's "expensive" yet it's probably just some very minor internal differences. Look up part numbers and costs if you're that passionate about how expensive they are.

The ITR had a Helical LSD on the front axle where it matters. Weight shifts back when you accelerate, so a rear one matters much less. The front axle is unloaded and more likely to slip. On top of all that, Acura used a Helical LSD, not a viscous LSD.

paisan will know more about this, but in an autocross a Subaru will spin it's inside front tire (weight shifts back and away from that single tire) coming out of a hard turn. Not a rear tire, the front! A rear viscous LSD helps a bit in the snow but makes no difference whatsoever on the track.

If we go to the Miata world, you see the same thing. Mazda used a viscous LSD from 90-93, but they weren't really doing much on the track, so they switched to a Torsen diff for later years.

The Torsen was so much better on the track that owners of 90-93 models swapped out the rather useless viscous LSDs for later Torsen ones since they bolted right in. They spend $900 plus a day or so of labor just to get rid of the one thing you're whining for.

Viscous is actually better than Torsen in the snow, because a Torsen needs some traction on both sides else it'll act like an open diff. But on a track, a Torsen is much better. It actively sends power to the side that has more traction.

So to summarize:

* Viscous LSD is useless on the track
* It does help one axle in the snow
* VDC helps two axles in the snow
* No visible difference from an open diff
* Acura/Mazda used other, more effective diff types for track

ateixeira · July 2007

Do you guys remember the early WRXs had that issue with the ABS where the pedal would sink to the floor on bumpy roads? It affected Hutch, among others here.

I bet the reason they ditched the rear LSD had to do with this.

ABS and the LSD clashed because one is mechanical and the other has electronic controls, but they didn't communicate with each other. On bumpy roads they'd fight each other and the driver ended up losing.

One advantage VDC has over a viscous LSD is that is does communicate with the ABS, in fact that's one of the critical inputs used to determine how and when to use the VDC. They work together, rather that fighting each other.

paisan · July 2007

As a follow-up last weekend at the track, Adam was running his Toyota X-Runner at the track. At the hairpin he was spinning the inside wheel, and it has a viscous LSD. My guess is that most Viscous LSDs do not in fact give you the lockup you would think.

-mike

aaykay · July 2007

The early WRX's issue with ABS was due to the Viscous CENTER diff in the manual WRXs....the EATs (WRX or otherwise) or the STI, never had this problem. In fact for the WRXs they should have ditched the viscous center diff a long time back and gone to a mechanical center diff setup like the STI (and EAT REXs). Just to cut through all the to-and-fro, the reason why they "ditched" or as I would say "quietly dropped hoping nobody would notice", the rear LSD, is due to cost...plain and simple. Just like going back to 2-pot/1-pot 02 calipers in the 08 REX, with small brake discs (not GT discs as all the hoopla stated earlier)....cost cutting again !

A car without LSD (viscous or not) is cheaper than a car with LSD....as anybody without blinkers would point out. I bet next year when they come out with a viscous LSD for the 09 WRX, Juice will forget all his current arguments and mention how much of additional value the 09 WRX is providing....with an LSD in the rear too ! :P

Yup, the VDC does communicate with the ABS. Which is why the Spec-B comes with both VDC AND rear LSD (torsen). In case of the WRX, they did some serious cost cutting in the 08 by eliminating equipment (less value for the consumer, more money for the manufacturer when the pricing does not go down) that came in the outgoing model, however creatively we wish to spin it. I will wager that the new 2008 will hit the lots with incentives.

2008 Subaru Impreza WRX

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