Midsize Sedans 2.0

backy · July 2008

What do you consider "mainstream"? The Optima, for example, outsold the Aura, Mazda6, Milan, and Passat last month--most of those by a large margin. Even the Galant is only 3,000 units behind the Passat YTD. Is mainstream only Accord, Camry, Altima, Fusion, Malibu, and Sonata?

backy · July 2008

Well, if it's any consolation, I believed you.

I was getting 37+ mpg on that Milan I4 AT on the highway on my trip, so I can certainly see an Accord getting 38 mpg on the highway under certain conditions.

akirby · July 2008

Is mainstream only Accord, Camry, Altima, Fusion, Malibu, and Sonata?

To me - yes. Not trying to imply anything except the frame of reference for my statements.

thegraduate · July 2008

I was getting 37+ mpg on that Milan I4 AT on the highway on my trip, so I can certainly see an Accord getting 38 mpg on the highway under certain conditions.

The "certain conditions" are what are so important. You can't get such mileage at 80 MPH with 4 people and the A/C cranked, running with winter blend 10% Ethanol.

You CAN however at 70mph, alone, A/C, with the cruise set.

I'm convinced that 90% of people could improve their economy by an easy 10% if they'd do nothing but drive when in the car; paying attention to lights and how fast they NEEDED to accelerate, not how fast they have to accelerate to be at the front of the pack on the six lane highway.

akirby · July 2008

And for city driving - coasting whenever possible. You'd be surprised how much you can coast if you start paying attention.

But let's not go overboard and start hyper-miling - pushing the car, taking corners too fast, coasting well below the speed limit and flow of traffic.

thegraduate · July 2008

I can honestly say my numbers are always achieved by going AT LEAST the limit.

Coasting, as you said, is a HUGE factor. For example, if I'm on the 5-lane (2 each way with a turn-lane) road near my home that has a 45 mph limit, and I see the light turn red well in advance. I'm not against coasting down to 30 mph before I eventually have to apply the brake as I approach the intersection. If I have people riding my tail , they have another lane to go around (I'm a right-lane renegade), as there is no point in ACCELERATING or driving 45-50mph up until it is time to brake.

joe97 · July 2008

Perhaps gearing?

What's more puzzling is the V6:

The 3.6 with the 6 speed is far inferior in terms of MPG than the 3.5 with a 4 speed :confuse:

sandman46 · July 2008

What kind of cars does Hertz rent in their mid sized Mazda 6 size? Getting this size from them in 2 weeks and was hoping they'd consider the Sonata in the same class. Since I'll have the car for a week, really want to try out the '09 Sonata and put it through it's paces. Wouldn't mind a Ford Fusion either. Hopefully I'll have a choice when i go to pick it up. I need a back friendly car and have been upgraded with Alamo and Avis in the past for free. Just wondering what Hertz has in their stables on a regular basis.

The Sandman

backy · July 2008

Cars may vary by location, but I've seen Camrys, Mazda6s, Fusions, Milans, Accords (!), Optimas, and Sonatas at Hertz. I have seen some 2009 Sonatas. Best thing to do is call the Hertz site you'll be renting from and confirm what they have in their fleet, and ask for a specific model.

moocow1 · July 2008

I certainly don't agree with those being the only mainstream. Mainstream sedans should include all sedans that are in the same mid-size budget range to compare against. It's not like these cars have any major differences between something like an optima vs passat vs altima. They're all similar types of vehicles, the details make all the difference.

explorerx4 · July 2008

i wouldn't focus too much on the epa numbers. real world can be very different.
odometers are not always accurate either(cough*honda*cough).

oldcem · July 2008

I'm driving an 08 Saturn Aura 3.5 for my business travels. I typically cruise at 70 - 75 on the interstates and the car has always averaged slightly better MPG that its EPA rating of 30 highway. At interstate speeds this thing only turns 2000 RPM and has enough suds that it doesn't downshift on hills much.

Regards:
Oldengineer

elroy5 · July 2008

If you can beat the epa estimates with one car, chances are you can beat them with another. It mostly depends on driving habits. For each driver who does better than the estimates, there is another who would not, driving the same car. "Real World" is only real, if it's YOUR world. I don't do things that I know will waste gas, but it's not the main objective while I'm driving. I check my mileage once in a while, just to make sure it's not dropping. I think checking the mileage for every tank is unnecessary.

akirby · July 2008

I certainly don't agree with those being the only mainstream.

Who said you had to? Those are what I consider to be mainstream midsize sedans and I was only using them in the context of what I used for comparison. I was not suggesting that was anyone else's definition.

kdshapiro · July 2008

On strengths of the Accord and Civic, according to news summaries I've seen. So much for the naysaying Honda is going down the tubes.

jeffyscott · July 2008

odometers are not always accurate either(cough*honda*cough).

Interesting...I never even thought of that as a possible source of error.

OTOH, I do agree with elroy that "Real World" is only real, if it's YOUR world

.

One person might regularly drive 80 on the freeway and another only 55, they will report drastically different mpg.

"City" driving varys so much depeding not only on the driver, but on how city-ish your city is. NYC is a city and so is Des Moines...I'm guessing average mpg in those two real world cities would be quite different even for the same driver.

akirby · July 2008

My "city" mileage on my daily 11 mile commute can vary from 18 to 24 depending on temperature, traffic and traffic light timing.

m6user · July 2008

One person might regularly drive 80 on the freeway and another only 55, they will report drastically different mpg.

I agree when you are comparing only two people. I think that it is kind of like the old 80/20 rule. 20% will drive at the extremes(55/80) the other 80% will drive around 5 over the limit. As you look through the mpg forums it seems like most people are driving around 65-75. That's the type of driving I do on the interstate and I consider myself to be pretty much in the norm and with the flow of traffic.

nuttyprofessor · July 2008

about to pick up an 08 2.5 S auto CVT ( base/cloth) with no other packages

for 18736 incl everything, except nj tax and plates/registration ( which ill get on my own)

good deal or not? please advice

jeffyscott · July 2008

I don't disagree and certainly when comparing uncongested interstate driving there are far fewer variables than any other types of driving.

kdshapiro · July 2008

Try going to edmunds TMV(true market value) and see what it advises. Why do you want to pick up your own plates, the dealer will charge you for it any way? Which dealer are you using?

nuttyprofessor · July 2008

TMV is giving me a higher price than im going to pay, which is good, but i trust real experiences better than estimating tools. that price is without their plate service , and supposedly that cost was deducted from my total to come up with the #, so if i want plates/reg , its an extra few hundred. ill have a 30 day temp plates, and at leasure walk into DMV ( 4 mles from me) and get it all taken care of.

aviboy97 · July 2008

let the dealer do the registration for you. Dealers are not allowed to mark up registration fees.

busiris · July 2008

Dealers are not allowed to mark up registration fees

Maybe not, but they can charge anything they like to provide the service of obtaining plates for you, etc.

jeffyscott · July 2008

Maybe not, but they can charge anything they like to provide the service of obtaining plates for you

That depends on the State, I think mine has a limit of $20 that can be charged as a service fee for plates and registration.

aviboy97 · July 2008

The fee is called a doc fee. Most dealers have one. In CT, if you do your reg on your own, the doc fee is reduced $25. For $25 I would rather not have the head ache that is also known as the DMV.

akirby · July 2008

The infamous "documentation fee" or "doc fee" is just added profit and has nothing to do with the actual registration of the vehicle. If you buy a Ford on A/Z/X/D plan then you usually don't have to pay any doc fee, although Ford has recently allowed up to $75.

m6user · July 2008

In Illinois, by law, the max doc fee allowed by the state is $150. Dealers can charge from $0 up to $150 but if they charge it to one customer they have to charge all customers the same amount.

aviboy97 · July 2008

That's not true. A/Z/X/D/S plans do not make you exempt from dealer documentation fees. As a Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Mazda dealer, I deal with this every day.

imidazol97 · July 2008

>up to $150 but if they charge it to one customer they have to charge all customers the same amount

Can you cite the item in the Illinois code that says it has to be charged the same to all customers? That's a popular statement by salesmen to try to defuse customers' resistance to paying it. See if there really is a law. What they can do is just lower the price of the car and then leave the line item on their preprinted billing. I just ignore such fees to beging with.

A recent consumer show talked about how real estate people are trying to sneak in extra fees in closings, since some car dealers are getting by with it so much. They add in a few hundred dollars on the final closing statement as "administration" fee, he said -- Clark Howard @ clarkhoward.com

aviboy97 · July 2008

I know CT law, a dealer must apply for a doc fee and get approval. There is no limit to what a dealer can charge, however, the state can deny your request for a certain amount. The norm here in CT for a doc fee is $250-$500.

Also, per law as well every customer must be charged the same amount for the doc fee, or monies must be refunded to customers who paid higher if discrepancies are found at time of an audit, unless the dealer got approval for a higher fee amount prior to the fee amount change. This also rings true to those who want a doc fee waived. It is unlawful to do so. The only thing a dealer can do is lower the selling price of the vehicle to compensate.

akirby · July 2008

Mazda has no restriction on doc fees. Ford allows a maximum of $75 in doc fees unless state or local laws require otherwise. Here is the exact rule:

# Dealers will be permitted to assess up to $75 in documentary fees on each delivery to an eligible purchaser under the terms of the Plan, unless otherwise provided by state or local laws or regulation. Each dealer is responsible for complying with applicable laws or regulations.
# Unless otherwise provided by state or local laws or regulation: In states where dealers are not permitted to charge as much as $75 for doc fees, dealers would be capped at the lesser amount as provided by the state. In states that permitted more than $75, dealers would be permitted to charge the Plan customer $75. In states that permitted more than $75 and also required that all customers be charged the same amount, dealers may charge the Plan customer $75 and indicate any additional fees have been paid by Ford Motor Company as part of the AXZD-Plan Program dealer reimbursement on the buyer's order.
# Doc Fee Charges should be detailed on the AXZD Plan Pricing Agreement located in number 4.
# Mazda dealerships may charge reasonable and customary document preparation and/or administrative service fees for S-Plan sales. Please review all fees with your Mazda sales consultant and be sure you understand and agree prior to completing a sale.

imidazol97 · July 2008

>This also rings true to those who want a doc fee waived. It is unlawful to do so.

This was discussed in another topic. States may vary, but I'd like to see the quote of the legislation. Years ago I had a Levi store manager tell me he had to see drivers license identification for a signed Visa/Mastercard. He even told me it was Michigan law! I asked for a copy and he copied a section of the law that didn't say that at ALL!!! Duh.

Next visit to the outlet mall we intentionally bought clothes for the kid at the same Levi store (West Branch, MI) and they didn't ask for ID for the signed credit card. I complained to the credit card company.

Same thing happened long ago using Travelers Checks at a KMart in Atlanta. They wanted to see a drivers license. With the travelers checks at that time if the signatures matched the store was protected.

aviboy97 · July 2008

I guess that is why we have never had an issue with doc fees for F/L/M customers. CT allows what we charge, and we must charge to all no acceptions

aviboy97 · July 2008

I think we are getting off topic (me included). I do believe there is a thread where this topic can be discussed in full. Host, where can we find it??

thegraduate · July 2008

I don't know where it should go, but I sure miss my midsize sedans board!

pat · July 2008

You could all head over to the Document Fees discussion and join the conversation there.

The keyword search on the side bar is a marvelous thing, truly!

:P

thegraduate · July 2008

2009 Passat will be offered in 2.0T form only starting in 2009, according to MotorTrend. The Passat CC will get the 3.6L.

akirby · July 2008

Ford confirmed in an interview that the upcoming 2.5L I4 Fusion will get 34 mpg highway. That is 3 mpg better than Camry or Accord. I assume the new 6 speed transmission (vs. 5 in the Camcords) is responsible for most of it.

aviboy97 · July 2008

Are you sure that is in reference to the non-Hybrid Fusion? If it is not, I don't see how Ford is going to get an extra 4 mpg's out of the Mazda based 2.5L which Mazda only manages 30mpg's highway.

akirby · July 2008

It's possible - they already said the hybrid would beat the Camry hybrid which is currently at 34 mpg highway. The exact quote was "The new Fusion, with a new 2.5-liter four-cylinder engine, will get more than 34 miles per gallon on the highway, Kuzak said." You'd think he would have said hybrid if that's what he meant, but maybe not.

Even if it is referring to the hybrid, the non-hybrids will get at least 32. The Mazda version still uses a 5 speed transmission whereas the Fords will use a new 6 speed.

baggs32 · July 2008

The Mazda version still uses a 5 speed transmission whereas the Fords will use a new 6 speed.

Remember that the Mazda 5-speed ATX has a manual mode too. You can safely bet that it will be geared towards performance rather than max fuel econ which would explain some of the difference.

milkman1 · July 2008

Here is the new article in question on the Fusion. It's actually out of Automotive News.

link title

aviboy97 · July 2008

I didn't get much out of that. Sounds like what every other manufacturer says about upcoming products.

akirby · July 2008

Have you ever heard Ford proclaim best in class fuel economy? I haven't, because they've never achieved it as far as I can remember. It was never a corporate priority before. And Kuzack wouldn't be announcing something like that if they weren't absolutely certain. The cars are only 4 months away.

elroy5 · July 2008

Since the Fusion is one of the smallest cars in the class, it shouldn't be too hard to get the best mileage. Was Kuzak saying he wanted fuel economy, at the expense of everything else? Will the transmission shift too soon (like the Malibu), or will they sacrifice performance, for the sake of an MPG or two?

auld_dawg · July 2008

Since Mazda's redesign, I believe that the Fusion/ Milan has a 200lb or more weight advantage {less being better}.

Might help this somewhat.........

lilengineerboy · July 2008

Since Mazda's redesign, I believe that the Fusion/ Milan has a 200lb or more weight advantage {less being better}.

Actually, I went to test drive the Mazda6 and they told me I had to lose 15 lbs before I could even test drive it. :sick: They might be getting carried away with this weight savings...

I kid, I kid...

jeffyscott · July 2008

Will the transmission shift too soon (like the Malibu)

Is that how the Malibu gets 33 mpg hwy for the I4 in the 2009 model? Is the fallout from the new EPA mpg test, which features greater acceleration? The old test only had very light acceleration, so I would guess early shifting could be have been restricted to only those conditions and now they would, perhalps, extend it to other conditions.

akirby · July 2008

Why are you ignoring the extra gear in the transmission? That plus wind resistance likely has more effect on highway mileage than weight.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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